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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / July 2004kitten not amenable to any rules
Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she just doesn't care. She is especially stubborn when she wants to eat, so i don't give her wet food when she demands it after i remove her from the table. she can very well eat her dry food, which she likes. I remove her from the table and don't play with her, so that i don't reinforce her bad behavior by doing something she enjoys. I tell her "NO" in a stern voice. now, i started to spray her with water when she does that. she jumps off. i know i don't put enough time into training her, but even what i do consistently, doesn't work. She can be very cuddly and sweet, will sit quietly on our bed and let me pet her and she will purr. then she would leave and sleep on a small couch in the bedroom. she is not very much into sleeping in our bed, for some reason. perhaps because we move around at night and she doesn't want to be bothered. but she bites when she plays. she never extends her claws and she doesn't scratch, but she bites pretty hard. i stop playing with her and either remove her from the bed, or from the room and scold her. i hiss at her, but she is totally unimpressed by hissing. she hisses sometimes at me when i trim her claws, or when is play-hunting. please help! -L >Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. >We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >-L It takes TIME -- lots of time -- just like with kids. She will improve as she grows up if you keep at it. MLB I'm sorry, & am going to be of virtually no help here, but when I read the subject, I just laughed. Cats tend not to be amenable to rules, much less kittens! ;-) Some cats will sleep w/ you all night, some won't. And they sometimes change their patterns through the years. Many grow out of the kitten biting stage, & no longer bite as adults. Cathy > Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. > We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > -L >I'm sorry, & am going to be of virtually no help here, but when I read the >subject, I just laughed. Cats tend not to be amenable to rules, much less [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Cathy This is true - with cats you really have to pick a few most important rules and not think they will obey like dogs. Which by the way dogs I found listen better than children and cats listen even less than children. Cats don't really seem to care about rules but I found the 3 rescue cats Lucifer, Catfive and Miss Thang will usually follow a few like keeping off the stove and attached counter. They walk on the table and the end tables but have learned to stay off the coffee table. I decided I can live with that. They also know the pantry is off limits but they can go any where else in the house. I am hoping Lancelot will learn the same - I also must say non of them scratch my leather furniture I got last year so what more could I ask for? Everyone uses the litter box - I am a happy cat owner. Karryl http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/soft63389/index.htm >This is true - with cats you really have to pick a few most important >rules and not think they will obey like dogs. Which by the way dogs I >found listen better than children and cats listen even less than >children. I agree, you can't expect to have rules for cats that the cat finds unreasonable. In this case, expecting the cat to stay off the table when it is next to the extremely tempting window is unreasonable, in my opinion. Actually, I am not sure why for some it seems important to keep cats off tables and counters anyway. If you are unduly worried about germs or something, just wipe it off before you use it. We don't care whether the cats jump up on tables, etc.--our rules are just a matter of what I'd consider typical training for appropriate behavior--basically, use the scratchinig posts instead of the furniture, no biting, they have to submit to claw clipping every other week and the two long-haired ones have to be combed thoroughly (and that includes the belly!) every day. The two older ones we got as kittens so they learned good behavior pretty quickly; the one we got as an adult, it took a little longer. I think the "no biting" rule is the more important and reasonable one in regards to the OP's situation, but from what he/she says, the training method being used here is appropriate and the kitten will learn eventually (but I agree, don't let the kitten learn that playing with your hand is okay--same thing with the way some people think it's cute when a kitten scurries up their pantleg, then regret letting the kitten learn this okay when he/she gets so big it starts to hurt.) >>This is true - with cats you really have to pick a few most important >>rules and not think they will obey like dogs. Which by the way dogs I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >counters anyway. If you are unduly worried about germs or something, just wipe >it off before you use it. technically, i really dont' care if she is on the table and neither does my boyfriend. i am a neat freak and i don't want litter box stuff on the table, but yeah, i can wipe it off. i also feel that she should have some rules - control freak me. :) whatever, she is a cat and she is clean, so there's no point in restricting her. i worry that our roommates may not want her on the kitchen table, although they say that it's ok. they may be just polite, but hey, if they can't say what they really think, it's their problem. we just don't want her to stick her face in our food when we eat. after all, we don't do that when she eats and eating is an activity that shouldn't be interrupted. if she wants our food, she should wait until we are done and then go at it. >We don't care whether the cats jump up on tables, etc.--our rules are just a >matter of what I'd consider typical training for appropriate [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >pantleg, then regret letting the kitten learn this okay when he/she gets so big >it starts to hurt.) she is getting much better with no biting after being locked out of the room. besides, she never bit so hard as to draw blood, although she could even with her baby teeth. i thought her with my squealing when she hurts me. she is very smart and she is very good natured and friendly. i think i'm being much too impatient with her. she is not into hand play anymore, and if she does hunt my hands, she bites very lightly and mostly just catches me with soft paws. she is very smart. :) she mostly jumps on my hands and does what i interpret as her way of tugging on them when i am asleep. thanks, Lena We have the same rule and we started training very early with Mr. Bonkers. Everytime he jumped on the table there would be a quick no and he would be deposited back on the floor. If he persisted, we would banish him to the screened in porch (he loves the squirty bottle). Well......it turns out he loves the screened in porch too. Now he jumps on the table and then immediately runs to the door. I wonder who trained whom. Any ideas on how to untrain a cat? > Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. > We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > -L > Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. How old is she? Does she have any other cats to play with? > We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she > just doesn't care. The question is - why does she want on it? If there's nothing in it for her, she won't go up there. Think like a cat. WHEN does she go up there? For example...If she only goes up there when you're sitting there eating, for the next 7 days, put her in the other room (door closed) each time you sit down to eat. After that, any time she jumps up there when you're eating, immediately put her in the other room (door closed) and don't let her out until you're done eating. It may take time, but she'll get it. No need to yell or make a fuss. She doesn't want to be locked up in one room while you are in another. That's motivation enough. In the rare instance it isn't, you get peace and don't have to worry about it. ;) > but she bites when she plays. she never > extends her claws and she doesn't scratch, but she bites pretty hard. How can she bite you unless you have your hands by her mouth when you're playing? Cats bite when they play with each other. That's normal. She needs to play with objects (stuffed toys, balls, long dangling things often called 'cat teasers', etc) or other cats, not your hands. If she should start something while you're petting her (NOT playing), make a hurt noise (squeal, OW, or whatever) and put her down immediately and ignore her for a little while, as another cat might do (they're good at acting offended). Bear in mind that some cats don't like to be pet for long. Watch her body language and stop before she gets pissy. Ears start to go back, tail flips around. They always warn you, we just don't always notice the warning. *heh* Living beings don't tend to do things that have no benefit at all unless it's just habit. Habits can be broken. The rest, you need to find out what the benefit is and provide a better one with a different behavior or remove the benefit from the current one *in every single instance*. A toddler who gets a toy to shut him up every 5th time he throws a tantrum in a store will throw one every time hoping for the toy. Cats aren't all that different. Just furrier. *grins* Nothing increases a behavior more than variable reinforcement. Nothing. Think about it. It's the basis of gambling addiction. HTH  Signature-- ~kaeli~ User: The word computer professionals use when they mean 'idiot'. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. > >How old is she? >Does she have any other cats to play with? she is almost 3 months old and she doesn't have any cats to play with. my roommate is getting a kitten soon and i can't wait until she is here. i can't be Shaina's playmate all the time. >> We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she >> just doesn't care. > >The question is - why does she want on it? If there's nothing in it for >her, she won't go up there. Think like a cat. WHEN does she go up there? she likes to sit on the window sill when it's sunny and the table is right next to it. i can't move the table anywhere else. she also jumps on it from the chairs when she is running around during play-hunting. she doesn't jump on there when we eat, although she does try to get into dinner trays when we eat in the bedroom. we remove her from the bed, but we should start to lock her out of the room. she did jump on the table today, when i was putting her food into her bowl, but i won't do that on the table anymore. lol! every time she wants food, when acts as if she hasn't eaten in years. >For example...If she only goes up there when you're sitting there >eating, for the next 7 days, put her in the other room (door closed) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >enough. In the rare instance it isn't, you get peace and don't have to >worry about it. ;) yeah, that's what i should do when we have a dinner tray in the bedroom. she is extremely curious about our food, although she hardly eats any of it. she likes to hang out by herself, but when my boyfriend and i are home, she wants to be around us, so sending her to another room will be a good way to teach her not to get into our food. >> but she bites when she plays. she never >> extends her claws and she doesn't scratch, but she bites pretty hard. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >needs to play with objects (stuffed toys, balls, long dangling things >often called 'cat teasers', etc) or other cats, not your hands. in the morning, she jumps on the bed and starts her wild jumping about and play-attacks my hands. i wake up, play with her a little, then feed her a little later. it is cute to hand-play with her and i squeal when she bites to hard, but i know, i shouldn't do hand-play with her, no matter how cute it is. she does like her cat trees and toys, though, and she will play with pretty much anything that she can bat about. also, she is very much into paper-towels and tissues and i have NO CLUE where she gets them sometimes. If she >should start something while you're petting her (NOT playing), make a >hurt noise (squeal, OW, or whatever) and put her down immediately and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to go back, tail flips around. They always warn you, we just don't >always notice the warning. *heh* yeah, i stop petting her when she gets pissy - i notice these things. when she is in her riled up play-mode, she is very much against being handled and picked up. >Living beings don't tend to do things that have no benefit at all unless >it's just habit. Habits can be broken. The rest, you need to find out >what the benefit is and provide a better one with a different behavior >or remove the benefit from the current one *in every single instance*. well, i'd have to remove the window :) she likes to sit in the sun there and she likes to jump on fairly high surfaces, so i will just lock her out of the kitchen when she misbehaves. i don't mind that she sits on the window sill, but i am not sure that i can teach her to sit only there and not on the table, although she can jump onto the window sill off the chair, without getting onto the table. >A toddler who gets a toy to shut him up every 5th time he throws a >tantrum in a store will throw one every time hoping for the toy. Cats >aren't all that different. Just furrier. *grins* >Nothing increases a behavior more than variable reinforcement. Nothing. >Think about it. It's the basis of gambling addiction. lol, she is a sneaky little furry thing and so hard to keep track of. she was nesting in my closet for a few hours now and i just took her out of there. she is now resting on my lap, all sleepy and calm. :) >HTH -L > >> Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. > > > >How old is she? > >Does she have any other cats to play with? > she is almost 3 months old and she doesn't have any cats to play with. Oh, dear, she's just a BABY. Here I was thinking she was like 8 months old or something. Don't expect too much of her at this age. It's the equivalent of a human toddler. I was thinking she was into the teenager stage where she didn't want to behave. It isn't that she isn't amenable to rules. It's that she doesn't know what they are yet. Be patient and teach her and don't expect her to understand what the rules are until she's a little older. > my roommate is getting a kitten soon and i can't wait until she is > here. i can't be Shaina's playmate all the time. Yeah, two is always better, IMO. > well, i'd have to remove the window :) she likes to sit in the sun > there and she likes to jump on fairly high surfaces, so i will just > lock her out of the kitchen when she misbehaves. Why don't you get a kitty ladder (I have a three step carpeted thing) or something she IS allowed to be on that's high and place it next to the window? People recommend those window sill attachments for cats, too, so the cat has more room in front of the window. She may just want more room to stretch out while still being able to see out the window. My cat tree is right next to the window. Remember, she doesn't really understand that you don't want her on the table. She knows that sometimes she goes on the table and you squirt her or yell NO, but she doesn't understand. Nor will she care much once she does. *LOL* Cats aren't big into pleasing their people if it conflicts with what they want. That's a dog thing. You have to show her a better way to get what she wants. So if what she wants is a nice spot to stretch in the sun by the window, give her a cat platform or tree or something there so she has a better spot than the table. The second kitten will probably help the biting issue, too, but don't encourage her to play with your hands. At 3 months, she doesn't even have adult teeth yet. Wait. ;) Signature-- ~kaeli~ "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. >We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >-L There is a learning period for kitties. They don't learn after 1 time. I am going thru much the same with Lancelot right now - he jumbs on the counters and stove when I am cooking. This week he did learn the word off --- so though he jumps up he does get off when I tell him "Lancelot off" Were still working on no. But I am sure that will come. I havent' squirted him because he seems not to mind it and he is very playful also so I don't want him to think it's a game. Today he came out of the pantry (where they are not allowed) when I called him to come and he got a treat and some petting for being a good kitten. I have to say he is a bit spoiled and has gotten by with things longer than the other 3 because I have had to work while he is a baby. My being home during my daughters tonsil surgery has been helpful at helping him learn some rules. Lets hope he remembers them....lol Karryl Karryl http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/soft63389/index.htm > Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. > We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > -L It's a process that requires time, patience and consistency. She's just a baby and a baby with a strong personality. As I'm sure you're already well aware, she will provide you with the most heart-warming moments in your life... but other times she'll be a bugger. Either way, she'll love you unconditionally. She'll learn and so will you. Good luck! >> Shaina is now able to get to pretty much any place in the apartment. >> We don't want her on the kitchen table, but no matter what i do, she [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Good luck! thanks for your reassurance! also, i think she is annoyed by my handling her too much and picking her up. it's ironic - when i just got her, she was the neediest thing, always wanted to be held, carried, or insisted on sitting on my shoulder all the time and sleep on my chest. now is totally independent and i miss her cuddling. i should let her be, though. -L > >It's a process that requires time, patience and consistency. She's just a > >baby and a baby with a strong personality. As I'm sure you're already well [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -L I think someone else said it but, cats are like having a baby in the house and it quickly goes through all the younger year stages in its first few months. It sounds like you are a great kitty parent though and I'm sure she'll be fine. As for her not wanting to be picked up, that is likely because, with a bit of age and being more familiar with her house, she has things to do LOL! We have two cats and one will follow me around like a little dog, loves the cuddles etc but it's only MOST of the time. There are times when she is busy with something else that I'm unaware of and she wants to get down and get going. I've interrupted her schedule it seems. With the love your kitten is getting though, she'll be back for cuddles when she's tired and ready for them Keep us updated. BTW What's her name? >> >It's a process that requires time, patience and consistency. She's just a >> >baby and a baby with a strong personality. As I'm sure you're already [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >BTW What's her name? she is cuddly and friendly to us and strangers and she does have a lot of things to do! once my friends came over with a medium sized dog (not the brightest creature in the world) and the dog just darted towards her, with Shaina all puffing up, jumping sideways and hissing. i am sure that was the dogs way of saying "hello" to a little fuzzy creature, but Shaina, and all cats i've known, are not into such crazy and rough behavior. they are cautious, soft, inquisitive, unless they have babies to protect. my demon cat at home is not scared of ANYONE and she can chase almost ANY dog away by just approaching them in this bossy manner, as if saying "why the hell do you think you are, being on my property? who do you roll with? know your place, you stupid canine." she would also sit in front of them, staring into their face and that for some reason, scares the living crap out of the dogs. :) so with that dog in our house, my friend held her and Shaina carefully went towards him, after i held her and petted her, smelled him, walked around him, very curiously, but cautiously. the dog understood that he is not to chase the kitten and just sat there. he is not very polite, i think, but i know some dogs who are. oh well. -L <snipped> > As for her not wanting to be picked up, that is likely > because, with a bit of age and being more familiar with her house, she has > things to do LOL! Oh, yes; I adopted Demelza when she was about 12 months, & while she was very affectionate, she still wasn't into being held at that point. She had much more important things to see & do - like exploring every cubic inch of the house that she possibly could. She became a lap cat by around age 5. ;-) Cathy
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