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Thyroid surgery

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Mary - 16 Jul 2004 17:04 GMT
Buddha's checkup today revealed that she is indeed hyperthyroid. The doctor
showed me how enlarged her thyroid is now. I'm kicking myself because
another vet saw this a year ago, but because her T3 levels were only
high-normal I did nothing. (Either I misunderstood what this doctor's
partner said about medication, or he didn't tell me about Tapazole.)

Our (the senior one there and founder of the practice 20+ yeats ago) vet
told me that cats do best with radiation treatment, but that his own cat did
well with surgery, which he performed. Because I trust him, if her blood
tests for renal function etc. come back okay, I think we will opt for the
surgery. (We would have to take her elsewhere for the radiation treatment.
Cost is not so much a factor--surgery is about $600 and radiation $1,000,
not such a big difference--as trust. Ever since my friend's kitten came back
from a spaying declawed I have some fears about vets I don't know.) If her
bloodwork is okay, we will have an ultrasound done of her heart to make sure
that it can withstand the surgery.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had this surgery done for their
cat. He explained the risks involved with the parathyroid--apparently they
leave a bit of that in there, but on rare occasions cats who have the
surgery do not recover parathyroid function.

On the good side, our fat girl has lost three pounds since her last checkup.
I want to think it is the canned food, but the vet told me cats lose weight
due to being hyperthyroid. He also told me that Boo is the fattest cat he
has ever seen with an overactive thyroid. She is a small-boned female who
now weighs 13.6 pounds. She is a really sweet and quirky cat, and if my
failure to act last year has hurt her I'm just going to want to die.
Cathy Friedmann - 16 Jul 2004 17:47 GMT
> Buddha's checkup today revealed that she is indeed hyperthyroid. The doctor
> showed me how enlarged her thyroid is now. I'm kicking myself because
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> leave a bit of that in there, but on rare occasions cats who have the
> surgery do not recover parathyroid function.

Correct.  My (RIP) cat, Debbie, had thyroid surgery when she was 11 or 12.
She was on Tapazole & doing apparently fine, but she also had chronic liver
disease, & Tapazole paired w/ liver dysfunction wasn't advised by either my
regular vet nor the internist vet, long-term.  The radiation treatment
wasn't available anywhere in this area at that point, so surgery was the
only option left.  My vet was hoping - & thought - she had done fine, re:
not involving the parathyroids at all during the surgery, but Debbie did
eventually become hypothyroid - a couple of months post-surgery, IIRC.
Otoh, her thyroid levels were easy to manage w/ thyroxin, a thyroid
supplement (which didn't have a potentially negative reaction w/ the liver
prob).  The surgery itself & the recovery period went fine.  Debbie was
grumpy & hoarse (from intubation, I gather) the day after her surgery, but
she was feeling *much* better by the following day, & went on to have an
uneventful recovery.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how come Tapazole (Vs. surgery) can't be
started now for your cat?

> On the good side, our fat girl has lost three pounds since her last checkup.
> I want to think it is the canned food, but the vet told me cats lose weight
> due to being hyperthyroid.

Yes.  The metabolism is sped up in one who is hyperthyroid, so more calories
are burned. Result: lost weight.

Cathy

He also told me that Boo is the fattest cat he
> has ever seen with an overactive thyroid. She is a small-boned female who
> now weighs 13.6 pounds. She is a really sweet and quirky cat, and if my
> failure to act last year has hurt her I'm just going to want to die.
Mary - 16 Jul 2004 18:14 GMT
> Correct.  My (RIP) cat, Debbie, had thyroid surgery when she was 11 or 12.

I forgot to mention that Buddha is nine.

>She was on Tapazole & doing apparently fine, but she >also had chronic
liver disease, & Tapazole paired w/ >liver dysfunction wasn't advised by
either my  regular vet >nor the internist vet, long-term.

He mentioned this, too, as another reason why he needed to do more blood
work.

>The radiation treatment wasn't available anywhere in this >area at that
point, so surgery was the  only option left.  >My vet was hoping - &
thought - she had done fine, >re: not involving the parathyroids at all
during the >surgery, but Debbie did eventually become hypothyroid - a couple
of months post-surgery, IIRC.

My vet drew the two lobes of the thyroid gland on the board and showed me
the parathyroid glands at the top of each as he described the surgery. He
stressed that the success of the operation depended in part upon leaving
that small bit of parathyroid, and that it was so very small that it was
easy to take too much of it, and that this may be why some cats do not
recover function. But he did say that only three cats in his 20+ year
practice had that happen and only one died.

> Otoh, her thyroid levels were easy to manage w/ >thyroxin, a thyroid
supplement (which didn't have a >potentially negative reaction w/ the liver
> prob).

My mother took animal thyroid for years and then synthroid later, due to
thyroid cancer that had been treated with surgery and radioactive iodine, so
I do know how that works.

>The surgery itself & the recovery period went fine.  >Debbie was grumpy &
hoarse (from intubation, I gather) >the day after her surgery, but she was
feeling *much* >better by the following day, & went on to have an
> uneventful recovery.

Good to know, thank you.

> Maybe I'm missing something, but how come Tapazole (Vs. surgery) can't be
started now for your cat?

It is my impression that the surgery produces better results. I asked my vet
the question, "if it were your cat what would you do?" and he said his cat
had hyperthyroidism and he did the surgery and she was just fine.

Is it your opinion (and others please chime in) that the tapazole would be
better to try first, instead of going right in for the surgery? (This is
assuming her blood work comes back NOT showing impaired liver function, and
of course the surgery would only happen if her heart ultrasound comes back
showing a healthy heart.)

I want to give her the best possible chance at a long and healthy life. We
could do the radiation but I would want to be there the whole time--I'm very
wary of strange vets.
Cathy Friedmann - 16 Jul 2004 18:32 GMT
<snipped>

> > Maybe I'm missing something, but how come Tapazole (Vs. surgery) can't be
> started now for your cat?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> of course the surgery would only happen if her heart ultrasound comes back
> showing a healthy heart.)

Yes, definitely, re: trying the Tapazole first, IMO (assuming no liver
prob)!  It's non-invasive, compared w/ major surgery.  Also, once the
surgery is done, that's that.  If her thyroid levels are initially still not
on target - which is common for both animals & people, then the medication
can be adjusted one way or the other by small increments.

The only timess I'd consider the surgery over the medication would involve
the sort of scenario Debbie had, or if the cat was incredibly difficult to
pill & after trying for a while, it was continuing to be a major battle each
day to get the medication into her/him.

Cathy

> I want to give her the best possible chance at a long and healthy life. We
> could do the radiation but I would want to be there the whole time--I'm very
> wary of strange vets.
Mary - 16 Jul 2004 18:51 GMT
> Yes, definitely, re: trying the Tapazole first, IMO >(assuming no liver
prob)!  It's non-invasive, compared w/ major surgery.  Also, once the
surgery is done, that's that.  If her thyroid levels are initially still not
> on target - which is common for both animals & people, then the medication
can be adjusted one way or the other by small increments.

Thanks. I will discuss this with our vet as soon as the blood work results
are in (he said tomorrow, as they are open on Saturdays), and see what he
says.
Nomen Nescio - 17 Jul 2004 06:20 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: "Cathy Friedmann" <clfr@adelphia.net>

>Yes, definitely, re: trying the Tapazole first, IMO (assuming no liver
>prob)!  It's non-invasive, compared w/ major surgery.  Also, once the
>surgery is done, that's that.  If her thyroid levels are initially still not
>on target - which is common for both animals & people, then the medication
>can be adjusted one way or the other by small increments.

I agree. Try the Tapazole first if there is not other problem that would
be a contraindication to it's use.
Two of our cats were taking the stuff, long term, with no adverse effects.
"Ebony" was on it for nine years and lived to age 18. She even got pretty
good about taking the pill. I'd touch the side of her mouth and go "say ahhh".
She'd open her mouth and go "ahhh" and I'd pop the pill in.
"Fission" took it for the last 5 years of her life and lived to almost 21 y.o.
She wasn't so good about taking the pill and I had to put it in a small
cheese ball for her. She was a regal old lady and would NEVER suffer the
indignity of having someone put a pill in her mouth.
BTW, Tapazole was about 1/2 the price at the local Costco pharmacy as
compared to the vet's, or any other local pharmacy.
Phil P. - 17 Jul 2004 10:13 GMT
> My vet drew the two lobes of the thyroid gland on the board and showed me
> the parathyroid glands at the top of each as he described the surgery. He
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> recover function. But he did say that only three cats in his 20+ year
> practice had that happen and only one died.

A generally accepted 10% fatality rate is associated with thyroidectomy.  To
my mind, that's unacceptable since other options are available.

Not only is keen and exacting surgical skill necessary to try and save at
least one of the four parathyroid glands which are very closely associated
with the thyroid glands,  maintaining the microscopic blood supply to the
tiny organs can be very tricky.  If both thyroid glands are removed, there's
always a question as to how well the parathyroid glands will function; if
they fail the cat could have a fatal seizure due to a severe drop in blood
calcium.

Click on the link to see an actual photo of the thyroid and parathyroid
glands.

http://maxshouse.com/anatomical_diagrams/thyroid_parathyroid_glands_b+w_photo.jpg

If you're not comfortable with Tapazole, speak to your vet about
carbimazole - its also in the Thioureylene family but has much fewer and
milder side effects than Tapazole.  In the US, Carbimazole is available only
through compounding pharmacies.

If antithyroid meds are out of the question, as much as I hate to say it,
radioiodine tx would be my next choice.

Before you go ahead with either permanent and irreversible tx,  put you cat
on Carbimazole or Tapazole for a month or two and monitor his kidney
function very closely.  Hyperthyroidism increases the GFR which can mask CRF
in cats with underlying renal disease.

Phil
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Mary - 17 Jul 2004 17:37 GMT
> A generally accepted 10% fatality rate is associated with thyroidectomy.
To my mind, that's unacceptable since other options are available.

That is higher than I like, for sure.

[snip]

> If you're not comfortable with Tapazole, speak to your vet about
carbimazole - its also in the Thioureylene family but has much fewer
andmilder side effects than Tapazole.  In the US, Carbimazole is available
only  through compounding pharmacies.

> If antithyroid meds are out of the question, as much as I hate to say it,
radioiodine tx would be my next choice.

> Before you go ahead with either permanent and irreversible tx,  put you
caton Carbimazole or Tapazole for a month or two and monitor his kidney
function very closely.  Hyperthyroidism increases the GFR which can mask
CRFin cats with underlying renal disease.

Thanks so much Phil. I printed this and will discuss it with the vet. If
only my doctor did the radioiodine treatment!
Cathy Friedmann - 17 Jul 2004 17:54 GMT
> > A generally accepted 10% fatality rate is associated with thyroidectomy.
> To my mind, that's unacceptable since other options are available.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks so much Phil. I printed this and will discuss it with the vet. If
> only my doctor did the radioiodine treatment!

Well, that's also a 'once it's done, that's it' deal.  Personally, even if
interested in the radioiodine treatment, I'd go with the Tapazole/med route
for a few months first, & see what happens, re: subsequent blood work
(thyroid levels, CRF pointers, liver values), & how the whole scenario's
going, in general, before making that leap.  Although I realize in this
case, it's a moot point.

Cathy
Mary - 17 Jul 2004 18:50 GMT
> Well, that's also a 'once it's done, that's it' deal.  Personally, even if
interested in the radioiodine treatment, I'd go with the Tapazole/med route
for a few months first, & see what happens, re: subsequent blood work
> (thyroid levels, CRF pointers, liver values), & how the whole scenario's
going, in general, before making that leap.

The vet just called and she has slightly elevated liver enzymes, so he says
Tapazole is out as is Carbimazole and other drugs of that class because they
can cause liver damage. I had a long discussion with him, and although he
feels confident about doing the surgery, he agrees with me that the risk is
significantly higher than the radioiodine treatment.

Although I realize in this
> case, it's a moot point.

Actually, no, it's not. I can actually change my mind. I'm going for the
radioiodine treatment, mostly because

1. I love this cat
2. If something goes wrong as a result of my bad decision I will want to
die.

As for my fears about using a strange vet--after a bit of thought, I feel
fairly confident that I will be able to make my concerns clear enough to
those who will do the treatment that they will be extra careful. :)

I'll have to take her out of town since there is nobody in Raleigh who does
this. (I had assumed the NC State VEt School would do it but he said no.)
There are apparently several places within an hour's drive that can do it.
I'll call the vet Monday and he will begin setting things up. He said he is
not sure if they will want to do an ultrasound of her heart before the
surgery. Here is the terrible thing: her thyroid levels were at about 4.0
last year and are over 10.0 now. I just hope we can pull her out of this.

Thanks for your input.
Phil P. - 17 Jul 2004 19:17 GMT
"Mary" <rosefan@email.com> wrote in message news:oFdKc.162713
> The vet just called and she has slightly elevated liver enzymes, so he says
> Tapazole is out as is Carbimazole and other drugs of that class because they
> can cause liver damage.

Has your vet considered the *probability* of hyperthyroidism *causing* the
elevation in liver enzymes as the result of the direct toxic effects of
thyroid hormones on the liver?  More than 75% of hyperthyroid cats have
elevations in serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and serum alkaline
phosphatase (SAP), and more than 90% have increases in at least one of these
enzymes.

If I were you, and I've been in the same situation many times,  I would put
the cat on an precursory thioureylene drug regiment and monitor liver and
kidney function before making any irreversible decisions.

Phil
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              beyond the one we know"
                        Lynn Hollyn

Mary - 17 Jul 2004 19:52 GMT
> Has your vet considered the *probability* of hyperthyroidism *causing* the
elevation in liver enzymes as the result of the direct toxic effects of
thyroid hormones on the liver?

Yes, Phil, I made sure to ask him. He understands this and is still hesitant
about putting a cat with impaired liver function on medication that has a
side effect of impairing liver function.

>  If I were you, and I've been in the same situation many times,  I would
put the cat on an precursory thioureylene drug regiment and monitor liver
and
> kidney function before making any irreversible decisions.

I guess I could insist the vet try the drugs. But please tell me this, Phil,
what do you see as the down side of the radiation therapy--in other words,
just getting this taken care of that way? Understanding that I don't want to
take any chances with this cat's life and that money is not an issue. Thanks
in advance for your thoughts.
Phil P. - 18 Jul 2004 06:35 GMT
> > Has your vet considered the *probability* of hyperthyroidism *causing* the
> elevation in liver enzymes as the result of the direct toxic effects of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about putting a cat with impaired liver function on medication that has a
> side effect of impairing liver function.

Mary, I'm sorry for not being clearer.  Her hyperthyroidism is probably
*causing* the elevation in her liver enzymes.  If you treat her
hyperthyroidism, her liver abnormalities will probably resolve.

Hyperthyroidism affects every organ and system in the body.  Therefore, a
true assessment of her liver function will be very difficult until her
hyperthyroidism is under control.

You're going to have to put her on carbimazole or tapazole for at least a
month to assess her kidney function before going ahead with radioiodine tx
or surgery  - unless you're prepared to risk unmasking underlying CRF and
her possibly developing overt renal failure.

> >  If I were you, and I've been in the same situation many times,  I would
> put the cat on an precursory thioureylene drug regiment and monitor liver
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> take any chances with this cat's life and that money is not an issue. Thanks
> in advance for your thoughts.

The only realistic downside of radioiodine tx is that its irreversible.

Even if her kidney function remains stable while on antithyroid drugs, that
does not mean she doesn't have underlying renal disease.  CRF doesn't begin
to show up in routine bloodwork until at least 70-75% of kidney function has
been lost.  Many cats whose kidney function remained stable while on
precursory antithyroid medication develop overt renal failure weeks to
months after receiving radioiodine tx.

I'm a strong proponent of antithyroid drugs because the initial doses can be
very low and gradually increased.  This results in a gradual decrease in
circulating T4 that in turn results in a smoother change in renal
hemodynamics rather than abrupt.  A gradual change in renal hemodynamics
gives the kidneys a better chance to autoregulate.

We accomplished the same effect with multiple small doses of I-131 but it
took 3 months and cost almost $3K - but it was well worth it.

CRF is a dynamic disease; antithyroid drugs also allow you to modify the
dose as kidney function changes and allows to strike a delicate balance
between an "acceptable" level of hyperthyroidism and an "acceptable" of
azotemia.

If I were you, I'd really look into Carbimazole. <4% of the cats treated
developed adverse effects which were described as "minor".  I've had nothing
but great results in every cat we've treated with carbimazole.

Phil

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         is like a rosebud in a garden"
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Feline Healthcare:  http://maxshouse.com

Mary - 18 Jul 2004 08:37 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message

> Mary, I'm sorry for not being clearer.  Her hyperthyroidism is probably
*causing* the elevation in her liver enzymes.  If you treat her
hyperthyroidism, her liver abnormalities will probably resolve.

So you're telling me that my vet, who has practiced here in Raleigh, NC for
nearly 30 years, does not know this, and I need to tell him? He literally
*said* that she is not a candidate for tapazole because she has elevated
liver enzymes. If what you are saying is true and he does not know this then
he is incompetent. I can deal with that, but I'm not going to decide it
based upon what "some guy in a newsgroup says."

Can you give me some articles for him to read, something to arm me with when
I see him? Can you tell me why an obviously conscientious vet who was
trained at the NC vet school would not know what you're telling me? And
forgive me, but are you a vet? I have always been impressed with your
knowledge but I have no idea. Please don't take this the wrong way. I am
grateful for your input.
Phil P. - 19 Jul 2004 01:16 GMT
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So you're telling me that my vet, who has practiced here in Raleigh, NC for
> nearly 30 years, does not know this, and I need to tell him?

No.  You don't need to tell him.  But somebody should.

He literally
> *said* that she is not a candidate for tapazole because she has elevated
> liver enzymes. If what you are saying is true and he does not know this then
> he is incompetent.

Your words, not mine.

I can deal with that, but I'm not going to decide it
> based upon what "some guy in a newsgroup says."

You don't need to decide anything based upon what "some guy in a newsgroup
says."  Do your own research,

> Can you give me some articles for him to read, something to arm me with when
> I see him?

Type "Feline Hyperthyroidism" in the Google search bar.  You'll get about
14,000 hits.

These should get you started and provide you with enough doubt to motivate
you to research the subject thoroughly:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/stortz/
http://www.lbah.com/Feline/hyperthyroidism.htm#patho
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/thyroid__signs__symptoms_and_d.html
http://www.gcvs.com/imaging/feline_hyperthyroidism.htm
http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/hyperthyroidism.html
http://www.axiomvetlab.com/EF%203-0.html
http://cvm.msu.edu/vth/spe/sts/procedure/Hyperthyroidism2.ppt

Can you tell me why an obviously conscientious vet who was
> trained at the NC vet school would not know what you're telling me?

You've already answered that question.

And
> forgive me, but are you a vet?

You're forgiven, and no.
Mary - 19 Jul 2004 02:45 GMT
Thank you for the articles. This one:

> http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/stortz/

does not mention at all the advisability of prescribing Tapazole for this
condition when a cat already shows elevated liver levels. It stresses that
the only cures are radioactive iodine and surgery, and that medication
merely treats symptoms. It does not tellme anything my vet did not already
tell me.

This one:

> http://www.lbah.com/Feline/hyperthyroidism.htm#patho

does indeed discuss the issue of elevated liver enzymes due to
hyperthyroidism, and says that *if* they are secondary to (e.g. caused by)
the condition they will return to normal when the thryoid is treated. What
really worries me is probably what worries my doctor: what if her elevated
liver enzyme levels are NOT secondary to the thyroid disease, and the
tapazole further damages her liver? Liver damage is irreversable. And, this
site, like the one above, also calls radiotherapy the "safest and most
effective treatment." This site says that the average age is 13--so Buddha
is young for this.

This site:
> http://www.marvistavet.com/html/thyroid__signs__symptoms_and_d.html

says that fully 87% of cats with hyperthyroidism also have hypertrophic
cardiomyopathy--very scary and another reason to go for a CURE and not just
a treatment of the symptoms. This site gives the average age as 14 and the
incidence of malignancy in the tumors that generally cause hyperthyroidism
as 2%. Still one great benefit of radioactive iodine treatment is that if
there is any cancer, it will be cured. What really bothers me so far about
all information I have seen is that Buddha, although she clearly has a
HUGELY enlarged thyroid, exhibits none of the other symptoms. She is FAT,
and has a lovely, shiny black and white coat. She tends to be a thinker, not
very hyper at all. It makes me wonder what the growth on her thyroid is, and
if it is a simple case of hyperthyroid. This site also mentions that
although treating the symptoms with Tapazole (instead of CURING the disease
with radiation or surgery) although seen as cheaper, is deceiving due to the
fact that it requires lots of rechecking blood levels and lots of medicine.
It also states that side effects "include vomiting, diarrhea, blood
dyscrasias, and hepatotoxicity. " And "As stated in the Physicians Desk
Reference (PDR) and the package insert, "tapazole is intended to be used to
ameliorate hyperthyroidism in preparation for a more definitive treatment"
and as such tapazole is not intended to be used as a long term treatment. "

So at this point I am wondering, why bother with Tapazole? Why put her
through this? The radioactive iodine requires a single shot and not even any
anesthesia, and she is cured.

Advantages of radioactive iodine treatment, from the site above:
"The third option for the treatment of hyperthyroidism is the administration
of radioactive iodine. The advantages of radioiodine cure are many. The
overall success rate is 96% following a single injection of iodine- 131.
Recurrence rate is extremely low. The return to a euthyroid state is rapid,
as circulating thyroid hormone levels drop precipitously within 48 hours
post-administration, and there are essentially no side effects. Not only
does the radioactive iodine only localize in thyroid tissue, it only
destroys hyperfunctional thyroid tissue (wherever it is). Normal thyroid
cells are suppressed through negative feedback loops, and as such do not
concentrate any of the iodine. These spared normal thyroid cells then can
"turn back on,' and make normal amounts of thyroid hormone following
treatment. In this way, cats treated with radioactive iodine typically do
not need any medication and are euthyroid. Because the killing effects (beta
particles) that are released from the radioiodine travel such a short
distance, there is no effect on the adjacent para-thyroid glands and
post-therapy hypocalcemia is not seen. The only disadvantage to the use of
radioiodine is that the cat must be hospitalized in a special facility for
about 4-5 days, while the animal is excreting the radioactivity."

So far, these sites are convincing me that I should take her in for the
radiation treatment asap.

This site:
http://www.gcvs.com/imaging/feline_hyperthyroidism.htm

says this:

"Once hyperthyroidism has been confirmed, there are several treatment
options. They include treatment with radioactive iodine, surgical removal of
the gland, and treatment with anti-thyroid medications. The initial choice
of treatment is often guided by concern about the patient's kidney function
status. Some cats have detectable impairment of kidney function at the time
of their diagnosis with hyperthyroidism, but many do not. It is difficult to
assess kidney function accurately from routine blood testing in cats.
Generally about 2/3 of the kidney function must be lost before routine blood
tests will show any abnormalities. This has made it very difficult in the
past to detect which cats with hyperthyroidism actually have concurrent
kidney failure. However, Michigan State University has introduced a very
sensitive test of kidney function in cats and dogs called the iohexol
clearance test. In this test, a radiographic contrast agent called iohexol
is injected intravenously and the rate at which the kidneys clear the agent
from the bloodstream is measured. The test is carried out in the
veterinarian's office and a series of blood samples is sent to the MSU lab
for analysis.
Since hyperthyroidism induces increases in blood pressure and blood supply
to the kidneys, treating the disease will result in a drop in the blood
supply to the kidneys. In a cat with kidney failure, this can cause a
worsening of their kidney function in the few months after treatment for
hyperthyroidism with either radioactive iodine or surgical removal of the
gland. For this reason, patients with known kidney disease (either detected
on routine blood work or with the iohexol clearance test) are often treated
with anti-thyroid medications rather than surgery or radioactive iodine in
an effort to preserve their remaining kidney function. Using medications
allows the veterinarian better control over the concurrent kidney disease
and may allow the patient to survive longer. "

Which leads me to think I ought to have the radiation done because she has
normal kidney function. In other words, I want to have it done *while she
still* has normal kidney function.

This site:

http://www.axiomvetlab.com/EF%203-0.html

says that if she already has heart disease ("congestive cardiac failure")
she should not have the radioactive iodine. So I think we should have an
ultrasound before doing the radiation. It does not mention anything about
any advantage in placing cats on tapazole before beginning the radiation
therapy.

The site below is really interesting, I like that it has an actual photo of
an enlarge thyroid among other things.

http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/health/hyperthyroidism.html
> http://www.axiomvetlab.com/EF%203-0.html

However, I see no mention at all of any advantage in treating with Tapazole
before having the radiation cure done. And, as with all the other sites, the
only REAL disadvantage is that the cat might become hypothyroid, and that
can be treated with animal thyroid or synthroid. Other downsides: the fact
that the cat has to be away from home for ten days or so, and weight gain,
which in Buddha's case would not be good.

My conclusion is that you are wrong about there being any advantage to
putting her on Tapazole first, except financial. She clearly has the
disease, from her thyroid levels and the enlargement. Of the two cures,
radiation is the least risky. Medication:

A. is not a cure at all
B. has nasty side effects including vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, and
upsetting the cat two or three times a day every day to pill her, plus the
added upset of frequent vet visits and lab work to monitor her thyroid
levels.

I'm not sure why you have come to the conclusion that medicating with
Tapazole first has any advantage at all. I'll run all this by my vet
tomorrow, then I'll schedule her for the radioactive iodine cure.

Thanks so much for the information. I know a lot more than I did two days
ago.
Cheryl - 19 Jul 2004 02:50 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Mary"
<rosefan@email.com> artfully composed this message within
<news:FIFKc.140702$wH4.7433788@twister.southeast.rr.com> on 18 Jul
2004:

> Liver damage is irreversable.

No, it isn't. Shadow had hepatic lipidosis and his liver values were
horrible. Proper nutrician whether he wanted it or not, reversed his
liver damage. Along with Denosyl (some sort of Sam E).

Signature

Cheryl

Mary - 19 Jul 2004 03:03 GMT
> > Liver damage is irreversable.
>
> No, it isn't. Shadow had hepatic lipidosis and his liver values were
horrible. Proper nutrician whether he wanted it or not, reversed his liver
damage. Along with Denosyl (some sort of Sam E).

Thank you for the correction. This means that whatever damage she has
incurred might be reversed. From within the context of the topic at hand, I
assume you are not suggesting that I take a chance in causing liver damage
in my cat by giving her tapazole simply because liver damage can be
reversed.
Cheryl - 19 Jul 2004 22:46 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Mary"
<rosefan@email.com> artfully composed this message within
<news:oZFKc.140867$wH4.7436457@twister.southeast.rr.com> on 18 Jul
2004:

>  From within the context of the topic at hand, I
> assume you are not suggesting that I take a chance in causing
> liver damage in my cat by giving her tapazole simply because
> liver damage can be reversed.

FFS, I was not suggesting that you "take a chance" with you cat.
*plonk*

Signature

Cheryl

Mary - 20 Jul 2004 00:24 GMT
> In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Mary"
> <rosefan@email.com> artfully composed this message within
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> FFS, I was not suggesting that you "take a chance" with you cat.
> *plonk*

God it's cute that you actually announce it when you killfile. That always
tickles the hell out of me. I realize that you're bound to be understandably
emotional now, but honestly, I didn't mean any offense.

Meanwhile, your post regarding liver damage being reversible was very
helpful, because, in addition to the information Phil so kindly kept
repeating until it got through my thick skull, it made me realize this: the
worst thing that can happen if we try the Tapazole first is that if she does
have some liver damage and it is exacerbated by the Tapazole, we discontinue
the Tapazole and her liver enzyme levels rapidly go back to normal.

The worst thing that can happen if we do NOT try Tapazole first is that her
hyperthyroid really is masking kidney damage and she could then be in
serious trouble if we do the radiation treatment. My vet agrees with me. But
in the end, I am actually taking the risk that she may incurr additional
liver damage by trying the Tapazole. Why? Because it is worth it to be able
to go for the most effective cure for this debilitating thyroid disease.
Once again it comes down to the process of weighing the pros and cons.

Thanks to everyone--especially the patienct Phil P!-- for helping me think
this through. Please send good vibes so that the pee fairies witll be with
us in the morning so Buddha will not have to stay at the vet all day until
they can get a sample. ;)
Cathy Friedmann - 19 Jul 2004 03:43 GMT
> In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Mary"
> <rosefan@email.com> artfully composed this message within
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> No, it isn't.

Heh!  I picked up on the exact same passage as you did!

Cathy

Shadow had hepatic lipidosis and his liver values were
> horrible. Proper nutrician whether he wanted it or not, reversed his
> liver damage. Along with Denosyl (some sort of Sam E).
Cathy Friedmann - 19 Jul 2004 03:42 GMT
> This one:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> liver enzyme levels are NOT secondary to the thyroid disease, and the
> tapazole further damages her liver? Liver damage is irreversable.

Although I understand your vet's concern - that the liver enzymes may be
elevated due to a primary reason Vs. secondary, actually the liver does
often repair itself.

As one ex., the cat Debbie I mentioned - who had liver disease (w/ sky-high
values) & was also hyperthyroid, her liver values eventually returned to
normal, w/ proper treatment.

Cathy
Phil P. - 19 Jul 2004 05:15 GMT
> My conclusion is that you are wrong about there being any advantage to
> putting her on Tapazole first, except financial.

My post was in response to your statement that your vet did not know
hyperthyroidism was probably the cause of your cat's elevated liver enzymes.
You wanted articles to support my statement.  *All* the links I provided
certainly proved my point.

Now you're saying I'm wrong about there being any advantage to putting your
cat on Tapazole before going ahead with I-131 tx.  <shakes head>

It doesn't seem like you fully understand the effects of hyperthyroidism on
other organs.  I'll try to enlighten you. Hyperthyroidism in cats causes
tachycardia and increased cardiac output, and hypertension as well increased
renal blood flow and GFR.   An elevated GFR will mask underlying renal
disease because the kidneys are filtering more blood at a faster rate than
at a normal GFR.  This is why the BUN/Cr. in hyperthyroid cats with renal
disease are usually within the normal ranges.  Following treatment of
hyperthyroidism and return to euthyroidism, cardiac output and, hence, GFR
could drop, causing clinical development of overt renal failure in cats with
underlying or subclinical renal disease.

The purpose of treating a cat with Tapazole prior to I-131 tx is to return
the cat to euthyroidism  (where the cat would be after I-131 tx) and
evaluate kidney function.  If kidney function deteriorates while the cat is
on Tapazole, then a permanent cure (I-131) is not an option.  If the cat's
kidney function remains stable while the cat is euthyroid on Tapazole, then
she would be a good candidate for I-131 tx.  This screening process is
pretty much SOP for hyperthyroid cats prior to I-131 tx.

Here's a link that explains what I just wrote in case I wasn't clear enough:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/thyroid_treatment__radiotherap.html

Here's a journal abstract that documents the changes in renal function in
cats following treatment of hyperthyroidism with I-131 and why its so
important to investigate kidney function before I-131 tx.

Vet Radiol Ultrasound 1997 May-Jun;38(3):231-8

Changes in renal function in cats following treatment of hyperthyroidism
using 131I.

Adams WH, Daniel GB, Legendre AM, Gompf RE, Grove CA.

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, University of Tennessee,
College

of Veterinary Medicine, Knoxville 37901-1071, USA.

"Changes in renal function of twenty-two cats treated for hyperthyroidism
using

radioiodine were evaluated. Serum thyroxine (T4), serum creatinine, blood
urea

nitrogen (BUN) and urine specific gravity were measured before treatment and
6

and 30 days after treatment. Twenty-two cats had pretreatment and 21 cats
had 6

day posttreatment measurement of glomerular filtration rate (GFR) using
nuclear

medicine imaging techniques. There were significant declines in serum T4 at
6

days following treatment, but the changes in GFR, serum creatinine and BUN
were

not significant. At 30 days following treatment, there were significant

increases in BUN and serum creatinine and further significant declines in
serum

T4. Nine cats were in renal failure prior to treatment and 13 cats were in
renal

failure 30 days following treatment. Renal failure was defined as BUN
greater

than 30 mg/dl and/or serum creatinine greater than 1.8 mg/dl with concurrent

urine specific gravity less than 1.035. These 13 cats included eight of 9
cats

in renal failure prior to treatment and 5 cats not previously in renal
failure.

Follow up information beyond 30 days following treatment on 9 of these 13
cats

indicated that all remained in renal failure. Based on receiver operating
curve

analysis of pretreatment glomerular filtration rate (GFR) in predicting

posttreatment renal failure, a value of 2.25 ml/kg/min as a point of maximum

sensitivity (100%) and specificity (78%) was derived. Fifteen of 22 cats had

pretreatment GFR measurements of less than 2.25 ml/kg/min. These 15 cats

included all 9 cats in renal failure and 5 cats with normal renal

clinicopathologic values prior to treatment. At 30 days following treatment,
13

of these 15 cats were in renal failure. The 2 cats not in renal failure had

persistently increased serum T4 values. Seven of 22 cats had pretreatment
GFR

measurements greater than 2.25 ml/kg/min. None of these 7 cats was in renal

failure at 30 days following treatment, all cats having normal BUN, serum

creatinine, and urine specific gravity values. It was concluded that
significant

declines in renal function occur after treatment of hyperthyroidism and this

decline is clinically important in cats with renal disease. Pretreatment

measurement of GFR is valuable in detecting subclinical renal disease and in

predicting which cats may have clinically important declines in renal
function

following treatment."
Mary - 19 Jul 2004 05:58 GMT
> It doesn't seem like you fully understand the effects of hyperthyroidism
on  other organs.  I'll try to enlighten you.

Thank you.

>Hyperthyroidism in cats causes tachycardia and >increased cardiac output,
and hypertension as well >increased renal blood flow and GFR.   An elevated
>GFR will mask underlying renal disease because the >kidneys are filtering
more blood at a faster rate than
> at a normal GFR.  This is why the BUN/Cr. in >hyperthyroid cats with renal
disease are usually within >the normal ranges.  Following treatment
>ofhyperthyroidism and return to euthyroidism, cardiac >output and, hence,
GFR could drop, causing clinical >development of overt renal failure in cats
with underlying >or subclinical renal disease.

> The purpose of treating a cat with Tapazole prior to I->131 tx is to
return the cat to euthyroidism  (where the >cat would be after I-131 tx) and
evaluate kidney >function.  If kidney function deteriorates while the cat is
> on Tapazole, then a permanent cure (I-131) is not an >option.  If the
cat's kidney function remains stable while >the cat is euthyroid on
Tapazole, then she would be a >good candidate for I-131 tx.  This screening
process is
> pretty much SOP for hyperthyroid cats prior to I-131 >tx.

NOW I understand! Thanks so much for your good-natured patience and the time
and effort it took to "enlighten me." . I'm just going to read this to the
vet in the morning.
Mary - 18 Jul 2004 17:21 GMT
>Her hyperthyroidism is probably
> *causing* the elevation in her liver enzymes.  If you >treat her
hyperthyroidism, her liver abnormalities will probably resolve.

Phil I found this page (below) that discusses renal funtion but not liver
function. I understand that hyperthyroidism affects every organ in the body,
but do you know of a specific article that addresses placing cats with ht on
tapazole when blood tests have determined liver problems? I am going to talk
to Buddha's vet tomorrow and I want to be armed with every thing I can be.

http://www.vetinfo.com/cthyroidtreat.html#Continue%20with%20Tapazole%20or%20not
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 18 Jul 2004 17:46 GMT
>We accomplished the same effect with multiple small doses of I-131 but it
>took 3 months and cost almost $3K - but it was well worth it.

Mary, what Phil suggest here is an excellent approach as it allows
compromise. Our facility offered this at the same price as one visit.
In other words full treatment one visit $900, or 3 small doses for a
total of $900. There was no financial penalty for taking the gradual
approach.

Another benefit is that the small doses allow your cat to go home the
same day with lessor handling requirements of waste material.

-mhd
Mary - 18 Jul 2004 17:55 GMT
> >We accomplished the same effect with multiple small doses of I-131 but it
took 3 months and cost almost $3K - but it was well worth it.

> Mary, what Phil suggest here is an excellent approach as it allows
compromise. Our facility offered this at the same price as one visit. In
other words full treatment one visit $900, or 3 small doses for a total of
$900. There was no financial penalty for taking the gradual approach.

Thank you. I just found one of the treatment facilities online, it is in
Carrboro, NC. I will speak with them tomorrow and see about the gradual
approach. Strangely, their web site states that "most cats may return home
in three days," whereas I have seen in other places online that two weeks of
boarding is needed. That would be really hard on our spoiled baby, and on
me. (A lot can happen in two weeks.)

First I need to speak with my vet about a round of Tapazole first. But I am
really torn. If the radiation therapy is best (and most vets I've found
online say that it IS) I want it for her. One of the best things I read is
that if there is cancer present in the tumor that has caused the
enlargement, it becomes a moot point as the radioiodine destroys it. The
doctor showed me her thyroid by wetting down her neck and gently pressing on
either side. It is huge. She is only nine. She could and should live another
ten years.
Cathy Friedmann - 18 Jul 2004 19:02 GMT
> First I need to speak with my vet about a round of Tapazole first. But I am
> really torn. If the radiation therapy is best (and most vets I've found
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> either side. It is huge. She is only nine. She could and should live another
> ten years.

An enlarged thyroid is not usually because it's cancerous, if that's a
consolation.  It's usually just a symptom of hyperthyroidism (in people,
too).

Cathy
Steve G - 20 Jul 2004 21:50 GMT
(...)

> Thank you. I just found one of the treatment facilities online, it is in
> Carrboro, NC.

Small world - my vet!
S.
Mary - 20 Jul 2004 23:07 GMT
> (...)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Small world - my vet!
> S.

It really is. I just got back from my vet (Buddha still has not given a
urine sample, so I have to take her back tomorrow morning) and he went to
school with both the founder of the practice and another doctor there. I
understand the founder is physically disabled, and has been for a long time,
and yet is a really wonderful, high achieving vet. From my vet's
recommendation today, I definitely want to use the Carrboro hospital.
Phil P. - 19 Jul 2004 01:32 GMT
> >We accomplished the same effect with multiple small doses of I-131 but it
> >took 3 months and cost almost $3K - but it was well worth it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> total of $900. There was no financial penalty for taking the gradual
> approach.

Ours was more expensive due to the Planar Thyroid Scintigraphy.

> Another benefit is that the small doses allow your cat to go home the
> same day with lessor handling requirements of waste material.

That's the great part about it!  The cat comes home the same day.

Phil

> -mhd
Cathy Friedmann - 17 Jul 2004 20:25 GMT
> > Well, that's also a 'once it's done, that's it' deal.  Personally, even if
> interested in the radioiodine treatment, I'd go with the Tapazole/med route
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Thanks for your input.

You're welcome; whatever treatment decision winds up being made, good luck
for her.

Cathy
Mary - 17 Jul 2004 22:00 GMT
> You're welcome; whatever treatment decision winds up being made, good luck
for her.

Thanks. She's such a neat girl. I really need to get a digital camera to
make it easier to take and post photos. Actually, I have one scanned of
Buddha before she got fat, maybe I'll post that. But my fav is one in which
she is sprawled out on her back showing us her bikini. I can't find it at
the moment.
lal - 19 Jul 2004 15:44 GMT
>>Well, that's also a 'once it's done, that's it' deal.  Personally, even if
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Thanks for your input.

RadCats in Carrboro!!!  http://www.radcats.com/

I have a friend who just recently had her cat in for this treatment.

lal
Mary - 19 Jul 2004 18:08 GMT
> RadCats in Carrboro!!!  http://www.radcats.com/
>
> I have a friend who just recently had her cat in for this treatment.

I'm very interested in her experience there, I take it that it was positive
as far as you know? Radcats is one of my choices.
lal - 20 Jul 2004 14:45 GMT
>>RadCats in Carrboro!!!  http://www.radcats.com/
>>
>>I have a friend who just recently had her cat in for this treatment.
>
> I'm very interested in her experience there, I take it that it was positive
> as far as you know? Radcats is one of my choices.

She was very pleased with how her Cocoa was treated.  Cocoa just had her
30 day checkup and her levels have gone a bit low (said that was not
unusual and things would most likely clear up on her next blood check in
90 days) and she's put on a few ounces of weight.  Cocoa is 14 years old
and I know my friend was very concerned about her baby.  They allowed
her to put a "sacrificial" shirt in the cage with Cocoa so she'd have
something that smelled like home.  They were perfectly fine with
multiple calls from Mom to check on Cocoa's status and even let Cocoa go
home after only 2 days since she'd gotten the lowest dose (they'd caught
it early).  I think she'd do it again in a heartbeat if her other cat
had the same problem.

lal
Mary - 20 Jul 2004 17:03 GMT
>>Radcats is one of my choices.
> >
> She was very pleased with how her Cocoa was >treated.  Cocoa just had her
30 day checkup and her >levels have gone a bit low (said that was not
unusual >and things would most likely clear up on her next blood >check in
90 days) and she's put on a few ounces of >weight.  Cocoa is 14 years old
and I know my friend >was very concerned about her baby.  They allowed her
>to put a "sacrificial" shirt in the cage with Cocoa so she'd >have
something that smelled like home.  They were >perfectly fine with multiple
calls from Mom to check on >Cocoa's status and even let Cocoa go  home after
only >2 days since she'd gotten the lowest dose (they'd caught
> it early).  I think she'd do it again in a heartbeat if her >other cat had
the same problem.

Thank you. If they don't want to see her for another 90 days I imagine it
must be very common for T values to go low a month after the treatment. I
like the idea of giving up a shirt to make Boo feel more at home. I suppose
it was "sacrificial" due to the fact that it became contaminated by
radiation. Hope Cocoa does well now, and that you will report on her
results!
zuzu22@webtv.net - 20 Jul 2004 18:24 GMT
>I like the idea of giving up a shirt to
>make Boo feel more at home. I suppose it
>was "sacrificial" due to the fact that it
>became contaminated by radiation.

In '99, when My cat Zach (RB) went in for I-131, I went to a discount
store and bought one of those cheap packages of 5 large t-shirts. I
slept in one each night and would regularly bring one to the clinic he
was at so he would have something with my scent on it. The techs taking
care of him seemed to think it made a difference and calmed him. The law
here required longer clinic stays than most states and I wasn't able to
bring him home for 16 days. He did very well overall although the first
few days were very hard for him. Fortunately the clinic staff were aware
of his hard luck story and very delicate, insecure nature (he was a
recent rescue and I wrote and gave several copies of a detailed letter
to them telling his story) and they went out of their way giving him
extra attention and making him feel more secure. We had three and a half
more very good years together and it was worth it.

Megan

                                   
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Mary - 20 Jul 2004 23:18 GMT
> >I like the idea of giving up a shirt to
> >make Boo feel more at home. I suppose it
> >was "sacrificial" due to the fact that it
> >became contaminated by radiation.
>
> In '99, when My cat Zach (RB) went in for I-131, I went to a discount
store and bought one of those cheap packages of 5 large t-shirts. I slept in
one each night and would regularly bring one to the clinic he
> was at so he would have something with my scent on it.

A great idea. I think I will have my husband sleep in an old t-shirt and
donate it, as Buddha worships him. He is really her human.

>The techs taking care of him seemed to think it made a >difference and
calmed him. The law  here required >longer clinic stays than most states and
I wasn't able to
> bring him home for 16 days.

I really home they won't keep her that long. I have heard everything from
three days to two weeks. Today my vet told me that it is more a matter of
the cat's waste, which is radioactive for quite a while, rather than the cat
itself being radioactive.

>He did very well overall although the first
> few days were very hard for him. Fortunately the clinic >staff were aware
of his hard luck story and very delicate, >insecure nature (he was arecent
rescue and I wrote and >gave several copies of a detailed letter to them
telling his story) and they went out of their way giving him
> extra attention and making him feel more secure.

That's great that you made that effort and that they took care of him that
way. Boo is pretty confident--nine years ago I carried her in the palm of my
hand (she was so tiny) to my husband's father, where she was spoiled beyond
rotten, played with, loved, laughed at, cuddled, and overfed into her
current errr, "Rubenesque" shape. :) Then he began to travel a lot and I
asked for her back. She's very assertive and very brave. On the other hand,
since she has been with my husband for so long, she is very attached to him,
so she will be very lonely. This cat has a lovely, totally heart-rending,
deep, throaty howl--I have never heard a more evocative "woe is me!" I guess
part of that is the thyroid disease as I understand it makes them more
vocal. But maybe part of it is kind of like the way the biggest, deepest
voices come out of those great big blues singers! Buddha will sing the blues
every night. She does here if my husband leaves the room long enough to take
a shower. I guess I am worried about her being gone so long.

We had three and a half
> more very good years together and it was worth it.

I bet. I'd do it for any additional time with this hilarious, sweet girl.
Thanks for the input.
m. L. Briggs - 16 Jul 2004 19:39 GMT
>Buddha's checkup today revealed that she is indeed hyperthyroid. The doctor
>showed me how enlarged her thyroid is now. I'm kicking myself because
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>now weighs 13.6 pounds. She is a really sweet and quirky cat, and if my
>failure to act last year has hurt her I'm just going to want to die.

We do tje best we can with the information we have at the moment.We
are purring that things work out for the best.  I am sure that in 20
years (or maybe even 5) treatment may be better  and decidions easier
to make -- but that is not "now".
 Best of luck.   MLB
m. L. Briggs - 16 Jul 2004 19:46 GMT
>Buddha's checkup today revealed that she is indeed hyperthyroid. The doctor
>showed me how enlarged her thyroid is now. I'm kicking myself because
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>now weighs 13.6 pounds. She is a really sweet and quirky cat, and if my
>failure to act last year has hurt her I'm just going to want to die.

We are sending purrs and get well wishes for Budda.   MLB
Mary - 16 Jul 2004 23:10 GMT
> We are sending purrs and get well wishes for Budda.   MLB

Thank you. She's so neat! I have to be much more careful in the future about
monitoring her health--Cheeks too. My last cat never had any illness and
lived to be 20, but I surely cannot assume that these two will.
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 16 Jul 2004 21:04 GMT
>I would like to hear from anyone who has had this surgery done for their
>cat. He explained the risks involved with the parathyroid--apparently they
>leave a bit of that in there, but on rare occasions cats who have the
>surgery do not recover parathyroid function.

I just went through all that in December if you remember the posts and
advice I got from many in this group.

First of all the vet should be telling you thyroidectomy surgery has a
risk element as it has to be very precise.

We went with the radiation but *only* after a period of tapazole to
see how the kidney numbers looked like once T4 was in normal range.
Our 14 year old turned out to have good kidneys so went ahead, but
many cats once treated for hyperthyroidism unmask underlying kidney
problems. Kidney tests at this stage are meaningless until you get the
cat regulated on tapazole.

Pilling should not be an issue. When we were giving our cat tapazole
before he finally received radio iodine treatment, we got from our vet
a chicken flavored soft treat compounded with the proper dosage of
tapazole. They are packaged in individual blister packs.

He loved them and it sure made it easy compared to traditional
pilling. it was so easy that it was tempting to stay with them instead
of going with radiation.

We got the double dosage ones and then sliced them with a knife into 2
servings. This was cheaper than buying single dose treats. They are
very easy to cut as they are a very soft treat and the blister pack is
re-sealable to keep the unused part fresh. We also received drugless
samples in different flavors to try first but he loved them all. There
is apparently no taste of the drug at all and it is evenly distributed
throughout the treat. In fact today we getting some antibiotic from
the vet in a flavored treat compound for our other cat who has a mild
fever from an anal gland infection.

Good luck

-mhd
Mary - 16 Jul 2004 23:16 GMT
<hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com> wrote :

> We went with the radiation but *only* after a period of >tapazole to see
how the kidney numbers looked like >once T4 was in normal range. Our 14 year
old turned >out to have good kidneys so went ahead, but  many cats >once
treated for hyperthyroidism unmask underlying >kidney problems.

Now Ido remember you discussing this. So she could test normal for kidney
function then after treatment NOT test normal.

>Kidney tests at this stage are meaningless until you get >the cat
regulated on tapazole.

Okay, I'll run this by the doctor too. He really should have told me this
today, I think.

> Pilling should not be an issue. When we were giving our cat tapazole
before he finally received radio iodine treatment, we got from our vet a
chicken flavored soft treat compounded with the proper dosage of
> tapazole.

Sounds perfect for chowhound Buddha!

> Good luck

Thank you. I saved your message in its entirety for reference and will go
Google the topic for last year's discussion.
CajunPrincess - 17 Jul 2004 10:11 GMT
> Buddha's checkup today revealed that she is indeed hyperthyroid. The doctor
> showed me how enlarged her thyroid is now. I'm kicking myself because
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> now weighs 13.6 pounds. She is a really sweet and quirky cat, and if my
> failure to act last year has hurt her I'm just going to want to die.

I had a cat that had hyperthyroidism and kidney problems in the latter
part of her life and wasn't a candidate for either surgery or
radiation, so I can't comment first hand about the experience with
surgery.  Having said that, if money isn't an issue, it doesn't seem
to me that there's a really good reason not to choose the radiation
treatment if your kitty is a candidate and isn't too old-vets who give
the radio iodine treatment have to invest in special equipment and get
special licenses; IMO someone who's that invested in a special
procedure isn't likely to do something stupid like what happened to
your friend's pet. Would you not go to an oncologist if your cat was
diagnosed with an unusual cancer just because you hadn't seen that vet
before?  Plus, as I understand it, thyroid surgery is tricky to get
right and any surgery involves physical trauma to some extent. I am
under the impression that the surgery isn't done that much any more
now that the number of places doing the radio iodine treatment have
increased.
Mary - 17 Jul 2004 17:33 GMT
> I had a cat that had hyperthyroidism and kidney problems in the latter
part of her life and wasn't a candidate for either surgery or radiation, so
I can't comment first hand about the experience with
> surgery.

What happened to your cat?

>Having said that, if money isn't an issue, it doesn't seem
> to me that there's a really good reason not to choose the radiation
treatment if your kitty is a candidate and isn't too old.

My reason may not seem tobe a "good reason" to you but it works for me.
Money is not the issue, as I've said.

>-vets who give the radio iodine treatment have to invest >in special
equipment and get special licenses; IMO >someone who's that invested in a
special procedure isn't >likely to do something stupid like what happened to
your >friend's pet.

A reasonable assumption in a logical world. As for the world that we
actually live in, are you familiar with Duke University Hospital in Durham?
Or with its reputation? A few years ago I served on a jury in a trial in
which it was quite clear they had injured a woman through extreme
negligence--it was a simple procedure they did every day. Now then, perhaps
you are familiar with Jesica Santillam. If not, google her. And there have
been other deadly incidents involving this reknowned cancer center and
"world class" hospital.

>Would you not go to an oncologist if your cat was
> diagnosed with an unusual cancer just because you  >hadn't seen that vet
before?

Not the same issue. Cancer is a bit different from hyper thyroidism. As for
me, I have told my husband that no matter what I come down with, I am not to
be treated by Duke. And they are well-known as the best cancer center in the
area, and perhaps one of the best in the country.

>Plus, as I understand it, thyroid surgery is tricky to get
> right and any surgery involves physical trauma to some extent. I am under
the impression that the surgery isn't done that much any more now that the
number of places doing the radio iodine treatment have
> increased.

Thank you for your input. From what everyone else has said, I will probably
back up and try Tapazole if her blood tests come back okay.
CajunPrincess - 18 Jul 2004 01:05 GMT
> > I had a cat that had hyperthyroidism and kidney problems in the latter
> part of her life and wasn't a candidate for either surgery or radiation, so
> I can't comment first hand about the experience with
> > surgery.
>
> What happened to your cat?

Prissy passed away at age 19 almost a year ago.  She only had to deal
with the hyperethyroidism/kidney problems for about the last 18 months
of her life and after she was diagnosed it wasn't nearly the bumpy
ride that lots of people experience dealing with cats having that
combination of ailments.  I'm grateful for both of those
circumstances.  She had a fairly steep downhill slide the last five to
seven days before I had to help her on her way to the RB.

>  >Having said that, if money isn't an issue, it doesn't seem
> > to me that there's a really good reason not to choose the radiation
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> been other deadly incidents involving this reknowned cancer center and
> "world class" hospital.

>  >Would you not go to an oncologist if your cat was
> > diagnosed with an unusual cancer just because you  >hadn't seen that vet
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> be treated by Duke. And they are well-known as the best cancer center in the
> area, and perhaps one of the best in the country.

It's true that you can't just rely on reputation.  But as someone who
works for a hospital in the administrative end, I can tell you that if
someone only wants to be treated by a health care facility where bad
things have never happened because of stupid mistakes made by someone,
they're going to die at home. Of course, some places do a better job
of minimizing the mistakes than others.

> >Plus, as I understand it, thyroid surgery is tricky to get
> > right and any surgery involves physical trauma to some extent. I am under
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thank you for your input. From what everyone else has said, I will probably
> back up and try Tapazole if her blood tests come back okay.

I think the standard procedure is to use Tapazole or something similar
at first no matter what you end up doing long term so that the vet can
get a handle on whether there are kidney problems since the
hyperthyrdism masks that.

BTW, I thought I had read somewhere that there is a relatively new
test that may disclose renal function degredation earlier in the
process than the tests that have been commonly used so far.  Has
anyone else seen anything about this?
Cathy Friedmann - 18 Jul 2004 01:30 GMT
> BTW, I thought I had read somewhere that there is a relatively new
> test that may disclose renal function degredation earlier in the
> process than the tests that have been commonly used so far.  Has
> anyone else seen anything about this?

Yes, several months ago, incl. on this ng, IIRC.  But I remember none of the
details about it.

Cathy
Mary - 18 Jul 2004 17:03 GMT
"CajunPrincess" <CajunPrincess@mail2world.com> wrote >
> Prissy passed away at age 19 almost a year ago.

I'm so sorry. That is a long time to have a cat, and although people say
"weren't you lucky to have her that long," it is also plenty of time to get
extra attached.

> It's true that you can't just rely on reputation.  But as >someone who
works for a hospital in the administrative >end, I can tell you that if
someone only wants to be >treated by a health care facility where bad
things have >never happened because of stupid mistakes made by >someone,
they're going to die at home. Of course, some >places do a better job of
minimizing the mistakes than >others.

I know that's true. I have a pretty irrational fear and mistrust of
doctors--in addition to all of my perfectly rational fear and distrust. I
appreiciate your candid advice, and as I wrote yesterday, I have decided
tohave the radioiodine treatment done--or at least I had until I was told
she ought to be on Tapazole or a related drug before anything else is done!

> I think the standard procedure is to use Tapazole or something similar at
first no matter what you end up doing long term so that the vet can get a
handle on whether there are kidney problems since the hyperthyrdism masks
that.

And yet that is not my vet's standard procedure. He said that if her liver
enzymes were elevated she should NOT be put on Tapazole at all. I have used
him for years and do trust him. Yet I have no reason to believe that what
you and Phil and others have said is not true. I'm struggling now because
what do I do--just tell him I want her on Tapazole no matter what he thinks?

> BTW, I thought I had read somewhere that there is a relatively new  test
that may disclose renal function degredation earlier in the process than the
tests that have been commonly used so far.

Well, as of yesterday hers has already been established by her bloodwork.
Cathy Friedmann - 18 Jul 2004 19:00 GMT
> "CajunPrincess" <CajunPrincess@mail2world.com> wrote >

> > I think the standard procedure is to use Tapazole or something similar at
> first no matter what you end up doing long term so that the vet can get a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you and Phil and others have said is not true. I'm struggling now because
> what do I do--just tell him I want her on Tapazole no matter what he thinks?

Well, you could ask to have her on Tapazole for a few months - explaining
why, with the caveat (needed anyway when first starting Tapazole, for dosage
regulation) that her blood be checked frequently for for thyroid, liver, &
CRF-related values.  If her liver values worsen, then that would be that.
If not, you could then decide whether to keep her on med, or go for the
radiation deal - pending what the rest of the bw looked like, too.

Cathy
 
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