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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / July 2004"Best by" dates
I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give them to a shelter? ---MIKE--- >I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have >been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are >all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give >them to a shelter? Why don't you eat them?  SignatureAmericans couldn't be any more self-absorbed if they were made from equal parts water and papertowel. -- Dennis Miller >>I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have >>been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are >>all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give >>them to a shelter? > >Why don't you eat them? When we have food drives here, we are also asked for pet food. They suggest to give outdated food also if we have any. A bad practice. There is a reason they put dates on cans and packages. I certainly wouldn't donate outdated packages of cat food to a shelter as I'd hate to be responsible for causing illness for the felines. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > When we have food drives here, we are also asked for pet food. They > suggest to give outdated food also if we have any. > A bad practice. There is a reason they put dates on cans and packages. I > certainly wouldn't donate outdated packages of cat food to a shelter as I'd > hate to be responsible for causing illness for the felines. true but cats are very good at detecting a problem with food. they don't detect poison (i.e. rat/mice poison ) but do detect when its off. This should be fine to use. I would not risk it. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > true but cats are very good at detecting a problem with food. they don't > detect poison (i.e. rat/mice poison ) but do detect when its off. This > should be fine to use. >A bad practice. There is a reason they put dates on cans and packages. I >certainly wouldn't donate outdated packages of cat food to a shelter as I'd >hate to be responsible for causing illness for the felines. I ALWAYS check cans to see that they have no bulges or leaks. If there is any doubt, I throw it out. I don't store large amounts, so if one should be outdated, it is probably by months and not years.Packaged goods are also safe beyond expiration date, although they probably lack some quality. If you want to eat food past the expiration date then go ahead but I don't think it is great to put a cat's health at risk by giving him/her bad food. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I ALWAYS check cans to see that they have no bulges or leaks. If > there is any doubt, I throw it out. I don't store large amounts, so > if one should be outdated, it is probably by months and not > years.Packaged goods are also safe beyond expiration date, although > they probably lack some quality. >f you want to eat food past the expiration date then go ahead but I don't >think it is great to put a cat's health at risk by giving him/her bad food. That's not what she said. She said, "if there is doubt, throw it out." She didn't say it was "great" to feed bad food. Sherry >If you want to eat food past the expiration date then go ahead but I don't >think it is great to put a cat's health at risk by giving him/her bad food. I've never fed her bad food yet. She eats Iams light + hairball and Some Fancy Feast for treats.My message was that when we have "food drives" here, we are asked to empty our cupboards of outdated food. (Did not say I had any) The only thing that seems to get outdated in my cupboard is dry spaghetti. I buy it but never seem to get around to cooking it -- Throw them away. Would you give your own cats spoiled or expired food? SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have > been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are > all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give > them to a shelter? > > ---MIKE--- > I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have > been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are > all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give > them to a shelter? > > ---MIKE--- Mike, The food is probably fine. The only changes in cat food over time of any consequence is a drop in palatability. If the cans are exposed to changing temperature cycles or freezing you can get what is called synerisis where the water separates from the loaf of food and then palatability will decline more rapidly. There is certainly nothing harmful about expired cans. (assuming of course the seal is still intact and there is no "bulge" in the can lids) Are you willing to bet a cat's life on that? They put dates on the cans for a reason. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Mike, > The food is probably fine. The only changes in cat food over time [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > harmful about expired cans. (assuming of course the seal is still > intact and there is no "bulge" in the can lids) Cat protector, I would think that Steve Crane knows what he is talking about since he works for a pet food company. I will give the cans to a shelter and let them decide whether the food is safe or not. ---MIKE--- Uh... Steve knows that the cans have "sell by" dates & how they work; he works for Hills. Cathy > Are you willing to bet a cat's life on that? They put dates on the cans for > a reason. > > Mike, > > The food is probably fine. The only changes in cat food over time [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > harmful about expired cans. (assuming of course the seal is still > > intact and there is no "bulge" in the can lids) >Uh... Steve knows that the cans have "sell by" dates & how they work; he >works for Hills. > >Cathy Sorry to piggyback, I lost Steve's original post and I wondered if he might know the answer to this...On pet food. Is the "sell by" date the same as the "use by" date? I was wondering because a pet food mill here gives us tons of cat food that's near the "sell by" date. For instance, what we got this month is "Sell byOctober". Apparently that's too short a time frame to get the food distributed and for stores to sell it. > >Uh... Steve knows that the cans have "sell by" dates & how they work; he > >works for Hills. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is "Sell byOctober". Apparently that's too short a time frame to get the food > distributed and for stores to sell it. Sherry, That will depend upon the manufacturer. Most manufacturers have gone to a "Best if used by" dating which gives the consumer a hard date to follow. The dating on foods is more critical in dry foods and foods with high fat content. A Light food with low fat content may very well be fine a month or so after the "Best if Used By" dating. A puppy food or a growth food with much higher fat levels would be more at risk for having gone rancid. I'm sorry I can't give you a hard fast answer, but you would really need to ask the specific manufacturer how to handle food that is past the "Sell By" dating. Dating on foods has really changed a lot in the 20 years I've been around the industry. 20 years ago it took 3 days to change a manufacturing line from one product to another. Automation and better equipment has radically changed that. Now it takes about 13 minutes. Thus in the "old" days a manufacturer might produce one type of food for several weeks and build up a large supply. Today most manufacturers build only enough food to last a few days at best. This has big advantages to the consumer. 20 years ago you might have purchased food that was warehoused for several months and approaching its expiration. Today that's difficult to do. Most foods for sale in pet stores and veterinary clinics is extremely fresh, often only a few days to a couple weeks old at most. > Are you willing to bet a cat's life on that? They put dates on the cans for > a reason. Most certainly - Since I have examined and tested canned foods that are many many years past the expiration date I know whereof I speak. Some years ago, (I won't bother to admit it has been multiple decades) I was fed C-rations by the US Government that had been packaged over 20 years earlier in canned form. They tasted horrible - but they were perfectly safe. My bet is they tasted horrible the day they were canned so nothing much had really changed. I have reviewed analyticals on canned foods that were over a decade old, well beyond any expiration date. The nutrient values remained within 10% of the original canning product. I have access to a "library" of canned products going back to the early 50's. Unless the seal is broken and some bacteria gets into the can, something you will note in a "bulged" can lid and likely smell immediately when you open it, the chance of any harm at all is extremely remote. How can you simply bet a cat's life on this. You may not think much of your life but I don't think cats should be made to suffer because you insist on putting their lives at risk. They put expiration dates on cans for a reason but this seems to be lost on you. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Most certainly - Since I have examined and tested canned foods that > are many many years past the expiration date I know whereof I speak. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > note in a "bulged" can lid and likely smell immediately when you open > it, the chance of any harm at all is extremely remote. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Cathy > How can you simply bet a cat's life on this. You may not think much of your > life but I don't think cats should be made to suffer because you insist on > putting their lives at risk. They put expiration dates on cans for a reason > but this seems to be lost on you. > > Most certainly - Since I have examined and tested canned foods that > > are many many years past the expiration date I know whereof I speak. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > note in a "bulged" can lid and likely smell immediately when you open > > it, the chance of any harm at all is extremely remote. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Sherry >> How can you simply bet a cat's life on this. You may not think much of >your [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > note in a "bulged" can lid and likely smell immediately when you open >> > it, the chance of any harm at all is extremely remote. > How can you simply bet a cat's life on this. You may not think much of your > life but I don't think cats should be made to suffer because you insist on > putting their lives at risk. They put expiration dates on cans for a reason > but this seems to be lost on you. Are you the same weenie that was afraid your copier or scanner would radiate your cat? You can mention risking cats' lives 15 or 20 more times, but that won't make it true with regard to canning. The expiration date is for taste quality, not safety. The canned food would be safe for years beyond the expiration date, it just won't taste as good. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >You can mention risking cats' lives 15 or 20 more times, but that >won't make it true with regard to canning. The expiration date is >for taste quality, not safety. The canned food would be safe for >years beyond the expiration date, it just won't taste as good. Yes, that would be the same weenie. The same one who feeds his cats Special Kitty. That's the real irony. Expired premium food is probably less harmful than Special Kitty. Sherry > Yes, that would be the same weenie. The same one who feeds his cats Special > Kitty. That's the real irony. Expired premium food is probably less harmful > than Special Kitty. > > Sherry Haha! What you said is sad, but true. At the shelter a local feed store donated some Wellness canned food that was past it's "best by" date, and we kept that. Whenever someone donates Special Kitty or other crappy foods, we give those to the feral trappers to use as bait. CP, I'm being totally serious here: You keep talking about "risking cat's lives". In all honesty, *you* are risking your cats' lives by feeding them crap like Special Kitty. They are young now and may appear healthy, but I bet they are going to end up having health problems when they are older. Get off the wallet and buy them some decent food, if you love them so much. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com What does the great food debate have to do with spoiled food? BTW, there is nothing wrong with feeding cats store bought brands. Both my cats are perfectly healthy and fine. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Haha! What you said is sad, but true. At the shelter a local feed store > donated some Wellness canned food that was past it's "best by" date, and we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bet they are going to end up having health problems when they are older. > Get off the wallet and buy them some decent food, if you love them so much. > What does the great food debate have to do with spoiled food? BTW, there is > nothing wrong with feeding cats store bought brands. Both my cats are > perfectly healthy and fine. The comparison is being made that slightly past its prime Wellness or Innova is superior food to within-its-best-by-date Special Kitty. Yes there is something wrong with feeding cats store brand cat food. Do you even read some of the information that is posted on here? Since you're apt to compare cats to children think about this: Feeding your cat Special Kitty every day is the same as feeding your child McDonald's and Twinkies every day. Sure, they may be fine for a while, but the stuff will kill them. I'm looking at a can of Wellness right now. The first several ingredients are: Turkey, Chicken Liver, Whitefish, Turkey Broth, Salmon, Sweet Potatoes, Carrots. What are the first ingredients in a can of Special Kitty? Plus, you don't even take your cats to a regular vet, where they can take the time to thoroughly examine the cats and keep a record of their health. You just take them for the low-cost Humane Society vaccines. Do they keep health records of your cats? That's very important for noticing trends in weight loss/gain, bloodwork values, etc. In general, I think you are a good-hearted, well-intentioned person. I think you really want to do the best for your cats. I'm just trying to point out that there are some basic things you can do so that you can help your cats live long, healthy, lives. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com "Sherry " <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote:> > Yes, that would be the same weenie. Oh, now, I don't think we are allowed to call him a "weenie." How friendly is that? After all, as long as he is doing SOMETHING good for cats, he's okay in "L's" book. Feeding Special Kitty must be better than nothing at all, right? I am not willing to bet my cats or another's health on that one. They put dates on the cans for a reason. If canned food was safe for years beyond the experation date then food companies would not put dates on them. Would you give someone expired milk despite knowing it'd make them sick? If you are so sure that the food will safe and are willing to ignore the dates then eat it yourself instead of putting your cats at risk. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Are you the same weenie that was afraid your copier or scanner would > radiate your cat? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for taste quality, not safety. The canned food would be safe for > years beyond the expiration date, it just won't taste as good. >If canned food was safe for years beyond >the experation date then food companies >would not put dates on them. The dates put on the cans being discussed are NOT expiration dates. They are "best used by" dates. The two terms are entirely different in their meanings. When you continue to insist something is true without offering any proof to back up your claim, and when the facts say otherwise, you only succeed in looking like an idiot. This article excerpt might help you see through the persistent fog that clouds your brain (and make sure to note the sentence that says "Canned food as old as 100 years has been found in sunken ships and it is still microbiologically safe!"): One of the most frequently asked questions about canned food is its shelf life and "use-by" dates. The codes that are stamped on canned food are manufacturers' codes that usually designate the date the product was packaged. The codes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and usually include coding for time and place of canning. Most manufacturers offer a toll-free number to call for questions about canned food expiration dates. Remember, the code stamped on the can is when it was packaged. The general rule of thumb is that canned food has a shelf life of at least two years from the date of purchase. It is recommended that all canned food be stored in moderate temperatures (75° F and below). Many canned products now have a "for best quality use by" date stamped on the top or bottom of the can. "Expiration" dates are rarely found on canned food. Canned food has a shelf life of at least two years from the date of processing. Canned food retains its safety and nutritional value well beyond two years, but it may have some variation in quality, such as a change of color and texture. Canning is a high-heat process that renders the food commercially sterile. Food safety is not an issue in products kept on the shelf or in the pantry for long periods of time. In fact, canned food has an almost indefinite shelf life at moderate temperatures (75° F and below). Canned food as old as 100 years has been found in sunken ships and it is still microbiologically safe! We don't recommend keeping canned food for 100 years, but if the can is intact, not dented or bulging, it is edible. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Why do you guys even try?? It's a lost cause. > Why do you guys even try?? It's a lost cause. It's probably in the hopes that he'll kf everyone in the group, and thereby prevent himself from participating. rona Signature***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!*** >I am not willing to bet my cats or another's health on that one. They put >dates on the cans for a reason. If canned food was safe for years beyond the >experation date then food companies would not put dates on them. Would you >give someone expired milk despite knowing it'd make them sick? If you are so >sure that the food will safe and are willing to ignore the dates then eat it >yourself instead of putting your cats at risk. Maybe they put dates on the cans so we'll throw away perfectly good food and buy new cans? Just playing devil's advocate. Which was the beer that stopped putting "best by" and started putting "born on" dates? That was clever marketing if you can get the stuff on the shelves quickly enough. Now it's up the you if you think it's fresh enough. There is a very real difference between drinking expired milk and eating canned food that happens to be a couple months past the sell-by date. Namely that milk has an extremely short shelf life and is very quick to spoil under even the most favorable conditions- which isn't the case with canned items. Milk (unless it happens to be *canned* milk, in which case the spoilage wouldn't be an issue) is processed, packaged, stored, and sold in an entirely different manner than canned goods. The two aren't even comparable. That's like attempting to liken a can of tuna that's a month past its sell by to a piece of fresh tuna left sitting on the kitchen counter for a month. There's no comparison. Donated slightly outdated premium foods make it possible for shelters to provide their cats with optimum nutrition at an affordable cost. Obviously we disagree on the matter, but personally, I would much rather see these cats receiving a perfectly fine high-quality food that happens to be a few months past the sell-by than subsisting on an inexpensive less nutritious, sub-par low-quality food to keep costs down. I would *gladly* feed my own cats a slightly outdated can of Innova or Nutro before I'd hit the Job Lot and buy them a case of "fresh" generic low-quality filler. Seriously, even if you like to be on the safe side, manufacturers are always going to err well on the side of caution in selecting a best if used by date for their food, because they don't want to take even the slim chance of somebody purchasing an off product. The food isn't going to magically undergo some radical change from being perfectly fine on March 24 to being completely inedible the next day, March 25, just because that happens to be the sell by date. > How can you simply bet a cat's life on this. You may not think much of your > life but I don't think cats should be made to suffer because you insist on > putting their lives at risk. They put expiration dates on cans for a reason > but this seems to be lost on you. Sigh, I'm sure this is a waste of time but I would suggest you think about the difference between the terms Probability and Possibility. It is extremely, grotesquely, remotely, POSSIBLE that a canned food past it's expiration may have botulism, have a massively bulged can and a very ignorant pet owner who feeds something that smells putrid anyway. That's a POSSIBILITY but not even a remote PROBABILITY. IF you choose to live in a world of fear of all the POSSIBILITIES that's your choice. Chicken Little liked that world as well and spent her life in fear of the sky falling, which turned out not to be exactly a major PROBABILITY either. I guess it is a waste of time because it is obvious that I don't wish to put a cat's life at risk by giving them spoiled food. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Sigh, > I'm sure this is a waste of time but I would suggest you think about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > fear of the sky falling, which turned out not to be exactly a major > PROBABILITY either. >I guess it is a waste of time because it is obvious that I don't wish to put >a cat's life at risk by giving them spoiled food. Ever wonder what's in Special Kitty? Sherry > I guess it is a waste of time because it is obvious that I don't wish to put > a cat's life at risk by giving them spoiled food. The point is that it won't be spoiled. The processing used for canning being the reason. This isn't a good analogy, but it's what I'm coming up with at the moment: Imagine leaving some saltines on the counter for an hour or so on a humid day, sans their wrapping. They won't taste quite as good after an hour because they won't be as crisp as they were before left out on the counter. But are they spoiled? Will they make you sick? No & no. Cathy > > Sigh, > > I'm sure this is a waste of time but I would suggest you think about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > fear of the sky falling, which turned out not to be exactly a major > > PROBABILITY either. > I guess it is a waste of time because it is obvious that I don't wish to put > a cat's life at risk by giving them spoiled food. Did you even read any of the stuff Megan or Steve posted? Canned food that is past its "best if used by" date is NOT SPOILED!!! It's just not at it's "best", not as tasty. The food is not rancid or spoiled. If the can is bulging and the food smells putrid, then yes it is, but that can also happen while a can is still in its "best by" time frame. The above goes for human food as well as cat food. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com > I guess it is a waste of time because it is obvious that I don't wish to put > a cat's life at risk by giving them spoiled food. Sure, you'd rather put them at risk by feeding them a diet of meat-flavored corn meal, than high quality food that you mistakenly think is spoiled. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." Do you see me questioning what you feed your cats? I find it interesting how some of you lable someone the bad guy simply because they don't feed their cats the same brands you do. It is a bit snobbish if you ask me. My cats are in oerfectly good health and are given lots of love, plenty of food and are well cared for. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Sure, you'd rather put them at risk by feeding them a diet of > meat-flavored corn meal, than high quality food that you mistakenly > think is spoiled. I find it interesting how >some of you lable someone the bad guy simply because they don't feed their >cats the same brands you do. It is a bit snobbish if you ask me. My cats are >in oerfectly good health and are given lots of love, plenty of food and are >well cared for. Nobody's labeling you a bad guy. Just a misinformed one who refuses to accept the fact that nutrition is *highly* important to a cat's longevity and long-time good health. If saving a few cents is worth more to you than having Isis around till she's twenty, hey, that's your decision. Sherry >> Sure, you'd rather put them at risk by feeding them a diet of >> meat-flavored corn meal, than high quality food that you mistakenly >> think is spoiled. >From: "Cat Protector" catprotector@cox.net >Do you see me questioning what you feed your cats? I find it interesting how >some of you lable someone the bad guy simply because they don't feed their >cats the same brands you do. It's not about you. It's about feeding your cats a good diet. Why don't you put your ego aside, and try feeding your kitties a higher quality food. I know you love your cats and want to do the very best you can for them. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >>From: "Cat Protector" catprotector@cox.net > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Lauren I'm trying to feed my cats a high quality diet and they simply walk away. I'm finally going to get a chance to try some Petguard Premium Feast which some kind soul recommended last week. But frankly, if they won't eat that, then I'm going to try Friskees or 9 Lives. Several of my friends have reasonably elderly cats (15 up to 20) that have eaten that sh.t all their lives. Me, I fed my previous four cats good food (they were a LOT less picky than the current generation) and only one lived to 16. Two died by the age of 10, one from Heart Disease and the other from Diabetes. This is just anecdotal of course, but I am really getting pissed off throwing away expensive food after getting that look from the boys."What, you expect us to eat this crap?" And it isn't like I've been offering them the real crap. For all I know they're going to turn it down also (they have all the dry food they want, which IS Science Diet or Eukanuba or Nutra or something - that stuff they eat). Let's say that quality food extends my cats lives by 6 months. That is significant when you only live 18 years or so at a maxiumum. Still, if they really enjoy McDonalds and they hate Quality Nutrition, should I deny them that their whole lives? What is quality of life if not enjoying food? It isn't like they have sex. Hmm. Come to think of it, I should start eating at McDonalds. (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). I threw away a LOT of food until I got to Petguard. The three flavors my picky eaters like are Premium Feast, Chicken Stew lite, Turkey Lite with Barley, and Beef w/Barley. Still, I have seen starving strays turn away from 9 lives which makes me wonder what is in THAT! > I'm trying to feed my cats a high quality diet and they simply walk > away. I'm finally going to get a chance to try some Petguard Premium [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). Karen, It is all about choice. Just like us, cats can choose not to eat certain foods. I brought home a bag of Iams once and my cats wouldn't even touch it. Right now they get Special Kitty and Friskies canned and they love it. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I threw away a LOT of food until I got to Petguard. The three flavors my > picky eaters like are Premium Feast, Chicken Stew lite, Turkey Lite with [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). > Karen, > > It is all about choice. Just like us, cats can choose not to eat certain > foods. I brought home a bag of Iams once and my cats wouldn't even touch it. > Right now they get Special Kitty and Friskies canned and they love it. So, if your kid refuses to eat anything but McDonalds, do you just let them do that, or do you figure that when they get hungry enough, they'll eat their veggies? Or maybe they prefer corn instead of broccoli. My cats don't like SD or IAMS either, but they *will* eat Royal Canin, Purina One, Purina Pro Plan, and Nutro. They usually get RC or PP. Sometimes they get PO or Nutro as a treat. Very occasionally they get their favorite crap, which is that "kibbles and bits" for cats junk (I forget the name). Compromise. Don't just settle for utter junk. My cats get Fancy Feast, too, but they also get higher-quality dry food. They only get so much junk. Just like children. You don't let your kids fill up on ice cream and candy every day, do you? I don't let my cats fill up on crap any more than I would let my kids do so (well, if I HAD any kids *LOL*). They get the FF, but not enough to fill them up. If they're still hungry (and they will be), they have the high-quality there to eat. If you love something, you do what's best for them. That includes discipline and a proper diet as well as all the fun stuff. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Those who jump off a bridge in Paris... are in Seine. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Karen, > > It is all about choice. Just like us, cats can choose not to eat certain > foods. I brought home a bag of Iams once and my cats wouldn't even touch it. > Right now they get Special Kitty and Friskies canned and they love it. So you tried to feed them Iams *once* and they wouldn't eat it. Did you ever try anything else? Believe it or not CP, I, and I'm sure others on here, CARE about your cats. I just don't understand how someone who always wants to do the best for their cats can't even spend a little more money to feed them quality food. I don't care if it's the same brand as the food I feed, just something that isn't crap. Like I said before, at the shelter, where every donation counts, we won't even keep Special Kitty or other store-brand food. It goes for feral trap bait. We do keep Fancy Feast because every so often we get a cat that will only eat that. Sometimes I think they put crack in FF. It's one thing if your cats absolutely refuse to eat anything else, but it's another if you don't even try. One of the things that won me over about Wellness canned food is the way it smells. It doesn't stink! Also, the ingredients are human-grade and there is no by-product of anything. Have you ever wondered what a by-product is? That means the crap that is left over from processing every usable morsel of the cow or chicken. And when it says "meat" by-products, uh, can we be more specific? What type of meat? I'll probably be opening up a whole can of worms with this one, but I've never found a satisfactory answer one way or the other about rendered pets in commercial pet food. So, I tend to err on the side of caution and I'll stick with a cat food that I'm certain has no renderings in it. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com >From: "KellyH" Kelly@whatever.com >Like I said before, at the shelter, >where every donation counts, we won't even keep Special Kitty or other >store-brand food. What exactly is Special Kitty? I never heard of it until CP posted about it. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "KellyH" Kelly@whatever.com > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What exactly is Special Kitty? I never heard of it until CP posted about it. > ________ It's the Wal-Mart brand cat food. Bleh. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "KellyH" <Kelly@whatever.com> artfully composed this message within <news:4aGIc.63685$a24.3583@attbi_s03> on 12 Jul 2004: >> >From: "KellyH" Kelly@whatever.com >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It's the Wal-Mart brand cat food. Bleh. It makes me think of Special K. Cereal for Kitties. SignatureCheryl >From: "KellyH" Kelly@whatever.com >> >From: "KellyH" Kelly@whatever.com >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >It's the Wal-Mart brand cat food. Bleh. Thanks, Kelly. Ugh, it sounds wonderful. I have no problem with someone feeding a food like this if that's all they could possibly afford, but I think CP can do better. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > One of the things that won me over about >Wellness canned food is the way it smells. It doesn't stink! Also, the >ingredients are human-grade and there is no by-product of anything. Have >you ever wondered what a by-product is? Kelly, anybody can make the claim that their food is "human-grade". There is no definition for what that term means and it isn't regulated. It is just a emotional marketing tool. By-product is not neccessarily a bad thing either. Do you ever eat jello or ever had beef bouillon? Those are by-products, too. Depending on the quality of "by-product", it might be a desirable ingredient. Cats eat things in the wild that are considered "by-product". Internal organs are considered by-product, btw. Vitamin E is a by-product. Why do you think that "by-product" is such a bad thing. It is simply an industry term that encompasses a wide range of ingredients. Some are good and some are bad. >That means the crap that is left >over from processing every usable morsel of the cow or chicken. No, that's not what it means. >I'll probably be opening up a whole can of worms with this one, but I've >never found a satisfactory answer one way or the other about rendered pets >in commercial pet food. That is an outright myth. "Rendered pets" aren't found in commercial pet foods, just bone meal for gardens. The FDA did a pair of studies a couple of summers ago testing for the presence of cat and dog DNA in commercial pet foods and there was absolutely ZERO EVIDENCE. None, nada, zip, zilch. > So, I tend to err on the side of caution and I'll >stick with a cat food that I'm certain has no renderings in it. How can you be so certain about Old Mother Hubbard?? A company that misleads the consumer with labels that have no meaning such as "human grade ingredients" and insinuating that by-products are bad by "not" having them in a food they make....can you really trust them? How many nutritionists work for them? Do they stick to a "fixed formula"? Do they "outsource" the production of their foods? Have you even asked yourself any of these questions? ;) Kelly, you should be aware that Gaubster2, while she doesn't actually work for Hills, is a great promoter of their products. Almost anything else is inferior in her eyes ---MIKE--- > Karen, > > It is all about choice. Just like us, cats can choose not to eat certain > foods. I brought home a bag of Iams once and my cats wouldn't even touch it. > Right now they get Special Kitty and Friskies canned and they love it. I have incredibly finicky cats as well - the two brands of dry catfood they will eat reliably are Nutro and Royal Canin (I mix them). Have you ever tried Nutro? Most cats I have encountered will eat it. My cats still eat Friskie's canned, but I don't feel so bad about it because they get a decent chow. They won't eat any other canned variety and I have tried them all. (Except for Purina DM, and I feed that as much as I can.) Yes, there is a lot of hype about feeding higher-quality foods - and rightly so, I think. But the truth is, thousands of cats eat Friskies, Purina and other store brands, and live into their late teens and early 20's. No, it may not be the best diet they *could* have, but they do live long lives. Personally, I don't think it's *that* big of a deal, and if the choice is to feed high-priced foods and then not be able to afford adequate vet care, or feed grocery-store brands and get adequate vet care, I'd rather see a client do the latter. However, I would never feed Special Kitty or some other brands - Meow Mix, for example. -L. Yes there are hyped up feelings but they have gone into downright attacks on people who don't follow some of the others who press for so-called "high quality foods." My cats like Special Kitty and Friskies. They are quite healthy and you are quite right, plenty of cats live into their teens and even their 20's on normal store bought brands. I'd rather have my cats eat than not eat. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I have incredibly finicky cats as well - the two brands of dry catfood > they will eat reliably are Nutro and Royal Canin (I mix them). Have [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -L. >Yes there are hyped up feelings but they have gone into downright attacks on >people who don't follow some of the others who press for so-called "high >quality foods." My cats like Special Kitty and Friskies. They are quite >healthy and you are quite right, plenty of cats live into their teens and >even their 20's on normal store bought brands. I'd rather have my cats eat >than not eat. Well, truth to tell, neither of the boys are in imminent danger of starving to death. One is 10 lbs and the other is 16. They do eat the dry stuff. So do mine. My cats get dry food regularly and canned is fed only a couple of times a day. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > >Yes there are hyped up feelings but they have gone into downright attacks on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > starving to death. One is 10 lbs and the other is 16. They do eat the > dry stuff. > Yes there are hyped up feelings but they have gone into downright attacks on > people who don't follow some of the others who press for so-called "high > quality foods." My cats like Special Kitty and Friskies. They are quite > healthy and you are quite right, plenty of cats live into their teens and > even their 20's on normal store bought brands. I'd rather have my cats eat > than not eat. Yeah, well, there are those who think if you don't carry your kitty around on a guilded pillow, that you are abusive... -L. I have not yet done that. Isis nor Jade have required it. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Yeah, well, there are those who think if you don't carry your kitty > around on a guilded pillow, that you are abusive... > > -L. > Yes there are hyped up feelings but they have gone into downright attacks on > people who don't follow some of the others who press for so-called "high > quality foods." My cats like Special Kitty and Friskies. They are quite > healthy and you are quite right, plenty of cats live into their teens and > even their 20's on normal store bought brands. I'd rather have my cats eat > than not eat. Plenty may live to a ripe old age on store bought brands, but plenty of storebought brands are better than Special Kitty. I question the ability to live a long healthy life, raised on the shittiest brand of flavored corn meal on the market. Cats and people can live some years on lousy nutrition before the problems of poor nutrition actually show up. Back in the 60s and 70s, I knew plenty of people who fed their cats the flavored Play-dough sold as Tender Vittles, but the cats didn't usually live past 12. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." >From: jamie@spam-me-silly.net (jamie) >Back in the 60s and 70s, I knew plenty of people who fed their >cats the flavored Play-dough sold as Tender Vittles, but the >cats didn't usually live past 12. I've read where Tender Vittles is compared to plastic. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: "Karen" kchuplis@nospamalltel.net >> I'm trying to feed my cats a high quality diet and they simply walk >> away. I'm finally going to get a chance to try some Petguard Premium [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). >I threw away a LOT of food until I got to Petguard. The three flavors my >picky eaters like are Premium Feast, Chicken Stew lite, Turkey Lite with >Barley, and Beef w/Barley. Still, I have seen starving strays turn away from >9 lives which makes me wonder what is in THAT! I fed my last cats mostly Fancy Feast, Friskies and Pukarina, I mean Purina. Most cats are hard to switch once they've eaten a certain food for a while. That's why I think it's good when a cat is young to start him out on a variety of foods, in order to avoid a finicky cat later. Before I started my present cats on a homemade diet, I fed them Petguard along with a couple other brands. They always liked the Petguard. I also think it's important when introducing a new food to not just put it down for the cat. I think switching is usually more successful when the new food is mixed in with the old food, a little at a time. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I threw away a LOT of food until I got to Petguard. The three flavors my >picky eaters like are Premium Feast, Chicken Stew lite, Turkey Lite with >Barley, and Beef w/Barley. Still, I have seen starving strays turn away from >9 lives which makes me wonder what is in THAT! I finally got to the pet store that has Petguard. They didn't have your favorites but there were quite a few and I'm trying those. They also had lots of other brands that I'd never heard of. All I can remember at the moment is Evolve. Nipsy seems to like the new ones a bit, Jackie will eat almost anything. Espy actually ate a few bites of the Petguard Beef (I think). I need to make a chart. >From: dgk sonicechoes-spamless@hot-nospamp-mail.com >Nipsy seems to like the new ones a bit, Jackie will eat almost >anything. Espy actually ate a few bites of the Petguard Beef (I >think). I need to make a chart. You might want to take their regular dry food and smash it up into a powder. Then take a small amount and mix it into the new canned food. This may help them to adapt to the new food easier. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm The problem we have on this group is you get labled the bad guy if you don't feed your cats the same food as some of the others on this group. Never mind if your cats are healthy, well cared for or even well loved. Some of the bullies on this group simply can't accept that you feed your cats foods that they don't. People like Lauren say "put your ego aside" when it is not about ego. Forgive me if I don't join your crusade against others who may feed their cats food that you wouldn't feed yours. My cats are just fine with the diet they are on. Even the vet says they are healthy and has no problem with my feeding them their normal cat food. Their quality of life is very good and they are happy. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "dgk" <sonicechoes-spamless@hot-nospamp-mail.com> wrote in message > >It's not about you. It's about feeding your cats a good diet. Why don't you > >put your ego aside, and try feeding your kitties a higher quality food. I know [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). CP, the problem is you are stupid or just plain annoying like a troll. Ten people kept telling you that the date on the canned food IS NOT expiration date, that canned food passed the stamped date IS NOT spoiled, yet you still insisted that canned food passed the stamped data IS spoiled. As one poster pointed out, canned food does not magically spoil overnight passed the stamped date. Yes, I have nothing better to do that's why I'm posting this even though I know you are too stupid to comprehend it. FWIW, I have no problem with Friskies. I don't buy the McDonald's analogy. Bye. I'll check back in a couple of months. RB > The problem we have on this group is you get labled the bad guy if you don't > feed your cats the same food as some of the others on this group. Never mind [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > (I haven't eaten at McDonalds or Burger King since 1970). >And it isn't like I've been offering them >the real crap. For all I know they're going >to turn it down also (they have all the dry >food they want, which IS Science Diet or >Eukanuba or Nutra or something - that >stuff they eat). This is your problem right here and a mistake many people make. When cats have food available all day and are constantly snacking, it doesn't make much difference what other food you offer them, they likely won't care to eat much, if any at all. Ideally you should feed your cats a variety of canned foods on a schedule (every 12 hours is optimal) and don't leave food out in between. Not only is it healther for them, but it changes their attitude towards food and they learn to understand that it's "now or 12 hours from now." It is also wise to feed scheduled meals because it lessens the likelihood of the cat overeating and getting fat, and also will make you aware of illness faster as you'll know exactly when and how much you cat is eating and will quickly notice if it goes off of its food. Most cases of hepatic lipidosis develop because the cats are free fed and it is *days* before an issue is noticed. Sure, leaving dry food out is convenient *for the owner,* but there is a much larger price to pay for that convenience that, AFAIC, makes it not even remotely worthwhile. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >>And it isn't like I've been offering them >>the real crap. For all I know they're going [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > That's an interesting point and I thank you. But I've read elsewhere that it is a good idea to leave out dry food and let them snack since many small meals is preferable to a few large ones. Every time I learn something someone comes along and reverses it. It isn't like they're eating crappy dry food. Ok, I'm open to suggestions. Dry food as desired or make them eat the wet food 12 hours apart. One more thing. Jackie (the new old girl) is supposed to eat many small meals around the clock since she needs to gain weight but has diarrhea and shouldn't eat a lot at one time. That is the doctor's orders. Of course, I don't think she eats much of the dry stuff at all. I never see her do so and I suspect her teeth and gums don't really allow it, thus it may be a red herring. Still, that makes it very difficult to leave food out for her and not for the others. Oh well, who said it would be easy. "dgk" <sonicechoes-spamless@zero-spam-hotmail.com> wrote > > > That's an interesting point and I thank you. But I've read elsewhere that it is a good idea to leave out dry food and let them snack since many small meals is preferable to a few large ones. A compromise might help. We limit Buddha's dry food to a small amount--maybe 1/3 cup a day. We used to keep her bown full. We found that once she started on the canned food she lost interest in the dry to the point that there were days when she would not empty the dry bowl. (She is a real chow hound.) Now she looks forward to her canned food (begs for it every time I go to the kitchen) and "rations" out her small amount of dry to last the day. She has lost weight since I made canned food her primary food. > Oh well, who said it would be easy. > That's an interesting point and I thank you. But I've read elsewhere > that it is a good idea to leave out dry food and let them snack since [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > suggestions. Dry food as desired or make them eat the wet food 12 > hours apart. I do both. My cats free-feed chow and get canned AM and PM. We (our family) have always fed that way, and will continue to always feed that way. Have never had a diabetic cat, nor a cat with any chronic health issues (not that doing so prevents such problems, just that so far, haven't had any adverse problems). Have had prolly 10-12 permanent cats between us over the last 40 years. -L. > I'm trying to feed my cats a high quality diet and they simply walk > away. I'm finally going to get a chance to try some Petguard Premium > Feast which some kind soul recommended last week. But frankly, if they > won't eat that, then I'm going to try Friskees or 9 Lives. <snip> ...This is just anecdotal of course, but I am really > getting pissed off throwing away expensive food after getting that > look from the boys."What, you expect us to eat this crap?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they want, which IS Science Diet or Eukanuba or Nutra or something - > that stuff they eat). It can take persistence and a considerable amount of time to modify a cat's eating habits, but it is well worth it if you can change to a premium cat food. Holly had always been free-fed, and she looked and acted healthy. However, I noticed a lot of dandruff (easily seen because she is a black cat), and she had put on about a pound of extra weight over the previous year (which is a significant percentage of a cat's weight). I had just adopted Duffy, and his coat was sad to behold. At first, it was difficult to convince these two to eat canned food, even though I was feeding top-quality food -- Wellness and Felidae for Holly plus Innova for Duffy because he was much too thin. Both turned their noses up at the canned food, but they would readily eat almost *any* dry food (especially Duffy, who was used to donated dry food at the shelter). I truly felt guilty as it seemed that I was depriving them of a sense of enjoyment, and for awhile they would simply leave their canned food untouched. I stuck with it, and they gradually adjusted to the new food. The transformation has been remarkable. Holly's black fur is gorgeous, glossy, and has no dandruff. She also easily lost the extra pound of weight and has remained steady at her optimum weight. Duffy has an incredibly gorgeous, fluffy fur coat, lots of energy -- and in his case, gained on Innova (which is whas was needed) but then held steady to his optimum weight on Wellness and Felidae. Last summer, I had a petsitter for two weeks. She is wonderful with my twosome, but she misunderstood my instructions about dry food. I keep a small supply of Wellness dry and will give a very *small* amount of that to Holly and Duffy every few days as a treat. She gave them too much of the dry food, and they had reverted to ignoring the canned while waiting for more dry. So, it was back to the drawing board. This time, they were back on schedule in just a few days; but this does show how important it is to maintain a good schedule of feeding and to remove uneaten food after a reasonable period of time (even if it does seem wasteful at first to remove uneaten food). I feed mine on a 12-hour schedule, or as close to that as possible. Is this cruel to "deprive" my cats of their preference for dry food? No, I think not. They are active, happy, playful -- and clearly in better health (even Holly, who I thought was pretty healthy before I started this). They no longer beg for dry food, but they always come bounding to the kitchen with me when it is time for their regular meal. One person I talked to when I was worrying about depriving them of the food they clearly preferred during the early stages made this analogy: Can you imagine convincing a teenager that he or she should prefer milk instead of a hot fudge sundae? At the same time, would you just turn over the hot fudge to a kid who insisted that was all he wanted? MaryL (take out the litter to reply) Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in") >From: "MaryL" carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER >I truly felt guilty as it >seemed that I was depriving them of a sense of enjoyment, and for awhile [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of energy -- and in his case, gained on Innova (which is whas was needed) >but then held steady to his optimum weight on Wellness and Felidae. Tha'ts great, Mary :) I think cats can surely exist on cheap and crappy pet food. But, as evidenced by your post, cats fed a better diet will surely be in better condition. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Do you see me questioning what you feed your cats? I find it interesting how > some of you lable someone the bad guy simply because they don't feed their > cats the same brands you do. It is a bit snobbish if you ask me. My cats are > in oerfectly good health and are given lots of love, plenty of food and are > well cared for. CatPro,........ you are either......stupid, retarded or close to one of these. others have expressed very rational and concise views. I'll just ignore you I think. What is with a lot of you people. Is the only way you can argue your point is to call others name? It is pretty sad to see have seen this newsgroup go so downhill over the last few years because many of you have to act like children. It makes me appreciate the message boards for cats that don't resort to this. Some of you really need to grow up and get a life here. As for you icarus it seems you are just in a long line of people who first attack, name call then say they are just going to ignore. I for one have no intention on playing these stupid childish games. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > you are either......stupid, retarded or close to one of these. others have > expressed very rational and concise views. I'll just ignore you I think. | Sigh, I'm sure this is a waste of time Most assuredly it is. Please ignore our village idiot. Is name calling the best way you can make people hear you? Villiage idiot, I think not. I prefer to be safer than sorry. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Most assuredly it is. Please ignore our village idiot. >I think not. Aha! You have isolated the main cause of the problem! I thought it was just that you didn't think WELL. >From: twinmountain@webtv.net (---MIKE---) >I have several cans of cat food (Innova, Nutro, and Whiskas) that have >been in the cupboard for quite a while (I now feed Wellness). These are >all well past the "best by" dates. Should I throw them away or give >them to a shelter? Considering the high temps pet food is cooked at, it should probably be fine. Ask the shelter if they would like it, and then they can ascertain whether or not the food is spoiled. I know with human food, if it smells bad, then I throw it away. But I'm sure this is different with pet food, lol. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm |
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