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Cat sh.ts on floor!  Help!

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Dally - 17 Jun 2004 20:10 GMT
Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
his mother and siblings.

From the very first day he would go into one particular corner of our
downstairs powderroom and sh.t on the floor.  With two exceptions, he
has sh.t on that same place every single day since.

He is our only cat.  Our former cat (a female) never used that bathroom.
 The construction is new.  It's an inside corner.  He was not
constipated when we first got him - on the contrary, his first few poops
on that floor were runny.

Here's what I've done to try to stop this.

I wiped everything down with the enzyme solution.  (I do this every time.)

He had a litterbox upstairs, but I put added a litter box in that room.
 It doesn't fit in the corner he prefers, but it's about three feet
away.  He pees in it, but still goes to his favorite corner to sh.t.

I bought a little litter box and put it in that corner.  He sh.t in it
once but then started sh.tting in front of it.

Figuring it was too little, I squeezed the big litter box into that
corner (it really doesn't fit there) and the cat went in there once but
then the next day went behind the toilet to sh.t as close to that corner
(outside the box) as he could.

I blocked it with a waste basket.  He sh.ts in front of the waste basket.

I got him neutered.

I locked him in a room upstairs (with food, water & a litter box while
he recovered from his neutering.)  He whined piteously to come out.
When a kid gave in and opened the door he made a beeline downstairs to
sh.t in that corner.  He didn't even use the litter box in his room
because we had taken out the clumping litter while he recovered from his
surgery and he won't use any other kind.

I clean all three litter boxes at least once a day, often times more
(following along behind him picking up his excrement where-ever it lands.)

We've tried three different kinds of kitty litter besides clay:
Yesterday's News, a cedar type and a wood pellet type.  He will only use
the horrible toxic clumping clay kind.  (I'm getting these fumes in my
pores from cleaning three boxes or more a day.)  He'll use the other
kinds only if we cover them with the horrible toxic clumping kind.

He is the sort of indoors cat that makes a bee-line for the door
when-ever it's open, then stops just outside and makes us fetch him
back.  (I hate that.)  But thinking maybe he wanted to sh.t outside, we
let him outside for a supervised visit to the shrubs.  No actual
sh.tting was observed, but he was out of sight and we assumed he did.
Later that day he found enough in him to manage a small sh.t in that
same corner.

I've got three small children and making our downstairs powder-room
inaccessible to a cat isn't very feasible.  Frankly, I'd rather give up
the cat than the bathroom (which is new construction to the tune of
$20,000 and desired long before the cat was thought of.)

Can anyone tell me something else to try?

Would I be a horrible person for returning this cat to the shelter?  I
run a business from my home and the constant waifing of cat sh.t from my
powder-room is making me sick.

Dally
Sherry - 17 Jun 2004 20:14 GMT
>Would I be a horrible person for returning this cat to the shelter?  I
>run a business from my home and the constant waifing of cat sh.t from my
>powder-room is making me sick.
>
>Dally

What I think is, if you can't tolerate his behavior, nobody else probably will
either, and he'll eventually be turned outside, abused or put to sleep. You've
already tried about everything I know to suggest. I hope someone else has some
suggestions for you.

Sherry
MadHatter - 17 Jun 2004 21:55 GMT
>>Would I be a horrible person for returning this cat to the shelter?  I
>>run a business from my home and the constant waifing of cat sh.t from my
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Sherry

perhaps putting food there would be a good idea.  he is not going to
poop where he eats.  also, if he prefers a specific type of litter,
that's the litter to use.  

-L
soft - 17 Jun 2004 20:45 GMT
When we got our first 2 kittens - (rescue so I don't know if they had
been litter trained they were only 6 weeks old) they both liked to go
in the corner behind the TV. I placed a small tray of water there and
that ended that problem. I left the water there for about 2 months to
make sure they had gotten the knowledge that there was a litter box
for that use.

Karryl

>Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
>weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
>Dally
Mary - 17 Jun 2004 21:00 GMT
> Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)

I think I would have him live in the bathroom for a while. I would place a
kitty bed right next to where he poops and water and food in the spot where
he poops. Catnip toys close by. As for his howling, you just have to ignore
it. He will calm down eventually. Although confining him to this small room
for several weeks might seem cruel, it isn't when you consider that his
behavior is endangering his life by making him pretty unadoptable. The lady
at the shelter where I got Cheeks does this with cats with similar problems
and with ferals, and she says it works like a charm. They will not poop
where they sleep and eat. Try it before you give him up, and keep the kids
out of there. (Clearly this will not work if you don't have enough
bathrooms.) Good luck.
Mary - 17 Jun 2004 21:02 GMT
I forgot to add that I would place his box as far away from bed and food and
toys as the bathroom allows. But I bet you figured that out.
Harley - 17 Jun 2004 21:24 GMT
> Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
> weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Dally

Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?
MadHatter - 17 Jun 2004 22:02 GMT
>> Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
>> weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> I blocked it with a waste basket.  He sh.ts in front of the waste basket.

[...]

>> Can anyone tell me something else to try?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?

is that what they did to you during your childhood incontinence
problems?

-L
Harley - 18 Jun 2004 16:15 GMT
> >> Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
> >> weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> -L

I see my cats as my children and this is what I believe:

Proverbs 13
24He who spares his rod hates his son,
       But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
kaeli - 18 Jun 2004 16:33 GMT
> I see my cats as my children and this is what I believe:
>
> Proverbs 13
> 24He who spares his rod hates his son,
>         But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Ah, the excuse of child abusers everywhere.
There is a very large difference between discipline and pain. Learning
it might help you. It would certainly help your children, both feline
and human.

The bible will have you believe that slavery is cool, selling your
daughters is cool, and killing children for misbehaving is okey-dokey.
Do you keep slaves, too? Can I have a Canadian?

Proverbs 29:19
   A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand
he will not answer.

Exodus 21:7
   And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go
out as the menservants do.

Leviticus 20:9
   For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely
put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall
be upon him.

Signature

--
~kaeli~
Never mess up an apology with an excuse.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Mary - 18 Jun 2004 18:02 GMT
> Do you keep slaves, too? Can I have a Canadian?

LOL!
Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 21:45 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:33:12 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
kaeli (tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net) said,
> Do you keep slaves, too? Can I have a Canadian?

Depends; do you plan to twist their ears and pull their tails?
;-)

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 16:37 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:06 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,

> > >Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> 24He who spares his rod hates his son,
>         But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Then you are seriously messed up. Sorry, but you are.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

MadHatter - 18 Jun 2004 18:32 GMT
>circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:06 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
>Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Laura

he shouldn't have either children, or pets.  his "rod" is better left
unused.

-L
MadHatter - 18 Jun 2004 18:31 GMT
>> >> Male cat born 1/10/04 (so he's five months old now.)  I got him about 6
>> >> weeks ago from a shelter.  He had been an indoor cat and had lived with
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>24He who spares his rod hates his son,
>        But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

you know, Hitler was seriously abused as a child.  his father tried to
"discipline" him promptly.  see how well that turned out?

-L
Dally - 18 Jun 2004 18:49 GMT
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:06 -0400, "Harley"

>>Proverbs 13
>>24He who spares his rod hates his son,
>>       But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.
>
> you know, Hitler was seriously abused as a child.  his father tried to
> "discipline" him promptly.  see how well that turned out?

Oh, God, Hitler was invoked.  I can't believe this troll got so much
attention.  Are you guys all new to usenet?

Dally
MadHatter - 18 Jun 2004 20:56 GMT
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:06 -0400, "Harley"
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Dally

no, just a little pissy today

-L
Cheryl - 19 Jun 2004 02:47 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", MadHatter
<devil_m@y_care.lost> artfully composed this message within
<news:r6i6d013inkbo1g1qsmc1svvn6l9s287qf@4ax.com> on 18 Jun 2004:

>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:15:06 -0400, "Harley"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> -L

LOL  In the Usenet community, when Hitler (or Nazis) are brought up
as an argument, the thread is officially dead. It is referred to as
Godwin's Law.

Signature

Cheryl

Laura R. - 19 Jun 2004 02:51 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:47:38 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cheryl (jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com) said,
> >>Oh, God, Hitler was invoked.  I can't believe this troll got so
> >>much attention.  Are you guys all new to usenet?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> as an argument, the thread is officially dead. It is referred to as
> Godwin's Law.

<G>
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Cheryl - 19 Jun 2004 03:00 GMT
In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Laura R.
<UseFirstInitialPlusRobinson@technologist.com> artfully composed
this message within
<news:MPG.1b3d6603175cc11d98aaa1@news.verizon.net> on 18 Jun 2004:

> circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:47:38 -0500, in
> rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cheryl (jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Laura

I wonder now if when "terrorists" are brought up, it should be
considered the same?  

Signature

Cheryl
/totally freaked out and sad by todays events.  No Mr Bush, some of
us are intimidated.

Laura R. - 19 Jun 2004 04:17 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:00:26 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cheryl (jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com) said,

> >> LOL  In the Usenet community, when Hitler (or Nazis) are
> >> brought up as an argument, the thread is officially dead. It is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I wonder now if when "terrorists" are brought up, it should be
> considered the same?  

Depends if you're comparing somebody to a terrorist while you're
having a flame war, I guess...

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Laura R. - 19 Jun 2004 02:53 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:47:38 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cheryl (jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com) said,
> >>Oh, God, Hitler was invoked.  I can't believe this troll got so
> >>much attention.  Are you guys all new to usenet?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> as an argument, the thread is officially dead. It is referred to as
> Godwin's Law.

Even better than the other link I posted:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

kaeli - 18 Jun 2004 20:17 GMT
> I see my cats as my children and this is what I believe:
>
> Proverbs 13
> 24He who spares his rod hates his son,
>         But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Ooh, here's another goodie.
God kills a guy for pulling out.
Good reading, good reading.

---
But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the Lord's sight; so the LORD
put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife
and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring
for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so
whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the
ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was
wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also. (Genesis 38:7-
10, NIV)
---

Signature

--
~kaeli~
The definition of a will?... (It's a dead giveaway.)
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

RobZip - 18 Jun 2004 21:27 GMT
> Ooh, here's another goodie.
> God kills a guy for pulling out.
> Good reading, good reading.

>But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so
> whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the
> ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was
> wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also. (Genesis 38:7-
> 10, NIV)

Right... he was given an assignment, arguably a dirty job and God appointed
him for it. Instead he tried turning it into a free nookie ride.
kaeli - 18 Jun 2004 21:43 GMT
> >But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so
> > whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Right... he was given an assignment, arguably a dirty job and God appointed
> him for it. Instead he tried turning it into a free nookie ride.

hehehehehehehehehe

Dirty job...
Screwing the wife-in-law to make her preggers...

LOL
He just didn't want to pay child support.
heh

Signature

--
~kaeli~
Support your local medical examiner: die strangely!
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 21:47 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:17:38 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
kaeli (tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net) said,
> Ooh, here's another goodie.
> God kills a guy for pulling out.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 10, NIV)
> ---

Well, now I know where all that Catholic guilt comes from.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

KellyH - 18 Jun 2004 01:34 GMT
> Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?

I seriously hope you ignore this advice.

Here's my two cents:
First, is the shelter you got him from no-kill or a municipal type shelter
that would put him down?  If it is no-kill, and you really don't feel up to
handling this type of behavior, then I would return him, explaining what the
problem is, and select another cat.*  If it is a regular open admission
shelter, this is a death sentence for him.  Please try to work with him on
this.  You may want to try a Feliway diffuser in the bathroom he likes to
poop in.  In fact, it might help to try them all over the house.  Also, even
though you don't like the clay litter, if that's what he prefers, use it.
Are you using scented or unscented?  From your description, it sounds like
scented, which most cats don't like.  If you would like to switch to a more
environmentally friendly litter in the future, it is best to mix it in
gradually.  Two others you might want to try are World's Best Cat Litter,
which is made from corn, and Swheat Scoop, a wheat litter.  Both are closer
to the texture of clay clumping litter, so your cat may adapt to those more
readily.  A lot of cats like to pee in one box and poop in another, so you
are probably stuck with two boxes.  Good luck.  Please keep us posted.

* I know I might catch hell for even suggesting that she return the cat to a
no-kill shelter.  They are crowded too and if this cat comes back, that
usually means one has to wait to be admitted.  However, speaking as a
shelter volunteer, I would want the cat back so a more experienced person in
cat behavior has him and is able to work with him on the problem, rather
than someone who may get frustrated and dump him at an open admission
shelter or outside.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
Check out www.snittens.com

Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 06:46 GMT
circa Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
> Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?

Please tell me that you're just a troll and not really this ignorant.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Harley - 18 Jun 2004 15:45 GMT
> circa Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
> > Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?
> >
> Please tell me that you're just a troll and not really this ignorant.

No, I am not a troll, and no, I am not ignorant. I have raised cats for over
30 years and I have found twisting/pinching their ears to be  a tried and
true method of teaching cats right from wrong. This method has never failed
me, no not once.

Once a cat associates pain with bad behavior they will stop misbehaving to
stop the pain from recurring. hth
Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 16:38 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:45:14 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
> > > Have you tried punishment such as pulling its tail or twisting its ears?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Once a cat associates pain with bad behavior they will stop misbehaving to
> stop the pain from recurring. hth

Yes, you are ignorant if you believe that that is the only effective
way to teach your cats. And please, before you get offended, look up
"ignorant" because I mean it in the truest sense of the word. Please
educate yourself on better behavior modification tactics for cats.
Please.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Harley - 18 Jun 2004 17:37 GMT
> circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:45:14 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Laura

I'm sorry if this offends you, but if something works don't fix it. My
method works, so you will not find me asking how to solve behavior issues, I
"know" how to solve them. My method has never failed, so why should I change
it?
Mary - 18 Jun 2004 18:04 GMT
"Harley" <stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com> wrote > I'm sorry if this
offends you, but if something works don't fix it. My
> method works, so you will not find me asking how to solve behavior issues, I
> "know" how to solve them. My method has never failed, so why should I change
> it?

Um, because what goes around comes around and Karma for a cruel boor like
you can be a real bitch?
MadHatter - 18 Jun 2004 19:02 GMT
>"Harley" <stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com> wrote > I'm sorry if this
>offends you, but if something works don't fix it. My
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Um, because what goes around comes around and Karma for a cruel boor like
>you can be a real bitch?

you know, if he did that to my demon cat Murka, she would 've ripped
his arms off and would 've been totally justified.  

-L
Mary - 18 Jun 2004 18:01 GMT
> No, I am not a troll, and no, I am not ignorant. I have raised cats for over
> 30 years and I have found twisting/pinching their ears to be  a tried and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Once a cat associates pain with bad behavior they will stop misbehaving to
> stop the pain from recurring. hth

Stupid bitch.
Dally - 18 Jun 2004 18:10 GMT
>>circa Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
>>Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Once a cat associates pain with bad behavior they will stop misbehaving to
> stop the pain from recurring. hth

I've had success with aversion treatments involving startling the animal
in non-painful ways, i.e., with a spray bottle or shaking a soda can
filled with BBs or something.  If you're really serious about trying to
train a cat by being unpleasant, how 'bout you try that, instead?

Dally
MadHatter - 18 Jun 2004 18:30 GMT
>> circa Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
>> Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Once a cat associates pain with bad behavior they will stop misbehaving to
>stop the pain from recurring. hth

that's healthy.  is that how you raise your children too, by hitting
them when they do something objectionable?  just hope that they don't
return the favor when they grow up and be greatful that you have
domestic cats for pets and not a doberman pincher.

-L
Harley - 18 Jun 2004 18:53 GMT
> >> circa Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:24:10 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> >> Harley (stickyourspam@myneighborsdoorstep.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> -L

As a matter of fact I do have a Doberman, I also have a Boxer. As for my
children they are both grown and love and respect me and their mother. I
also might add that your shift keys are beside your "z" and "?" keys, just
in case you want to capitalize a letter once in awhile. hth
RobZip - 17 Jun 2004 21:48 GMT
> Can anyone tell me something else to try?

Have you tried picking up the feces and placing it in the box? Roll it
around in the litter a bit to simulate burial. It's a desperation move to
get him to associate his feces with the litter box but who knows - it may
work.

> Would I be a horrible person for returning this cat to the shelter?  I
> run a business from my home and the constant waifing of cat sh.t from my
> powder-room is making me sick.

Like Sherry said, returning the cat to the shelter would probably be a death
sentence. As much as I love my cats, there are certain standards to be lived
by in this household for the welfare and enjoyment of everyone. If I had a
human guest who behaved as your cat does, they would be evicted. There are
some in this group who feel that once you take a cat in you've made a
commitment for life, whether it be bliss or pure hell. My own feeling is
that the commitment is a partnership arrangement. The expectation of using a
litter box is not unrealistic.

I'll probably catch hell from some for saying this but realistically, there
is no way I could *allow* an animal to ruin any part of my home or cause it
to be restricted in such a way that human occupants are deprived of normal
usage. While you are wrangling with getting your current cat to comply with
reasonable behavior, there is another cat at a shelter somewhere under a
death sentence that would work out just fine. It's a tough call to make.
Good luck....
MacCandace - 18 Jun 2004 06:15 GMT
<< Like Sherry said, returning the cat to the shelter would probably be a death
sentence. >>

If it's a no-kill shelter, as others have mentioned, I suppose I might take him
back.  I would certainly try the other suggestions that people have made here
first and, if all else failed, I would consider making him an outdoor
kitty...if death is the alternative.  While I certainly do not personally think
outdoors is a good place for cats to be--and one of my outdoor ferals was just
poisoned last week (we think but we don't know if it was intentional or
otherwise) so I understand firsthand the dangers of outdoor life--if you are in
a reasonably safe neighborhood, traffic-wise and people-wise, there is a chance
the cat could survive for several years as long as you care for him and provide
him food, shelter, vet care, and affection.  It certainly is not ideal, please
understand, but there are times when it has to be attempted.  My neighbor
across the street has 2 outdoor cats who he has had the whole 10 years we have
lived here.  Yes, bad things definitely can happen but a kill shelter is also
bad and turning a cat in with this sort of problem and chancing someone
irresponsible getting him next time is far worse.  He could wind up dumped or
abused, as Sherry said.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Dally - 18 Jun 2004 18:47 GMT
>>Can anyone tell me something else to try?
>
> Have you tried picking up the feces and placing it in the box? Roll it
> around in the litter a bit to simulate burial. It's a desperation move to
> get him to associate his feces with the litter box but who knows - it may
> work.

That's a nice idea.  I might try that tomorrow.

Today what I did was take the cover off of the big litter box and
shoe-horn it into his preferred corner, figuring that maybe the little
(open) litter box was too little for his Pooping Preference.

Bingo, he sh.t in the open litter box.  As usual, he did not cover up
his sh.t, just left it stinking on top.  He never buries it, and
occasionally steps in it and tracks it around.  (Have I mentioned that
this cat isn't very endearing to me?  I keep hoping he'll stop being an
adolescent male and grow up to be less slovenly.)

>>Would I be a horrible person for returning this cat to the shelter?  I
>>run a business from my home and the constant waifting of cat sh.t from my
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that the commitment is a partnership arrangement. The expectation of using a
> litter box is not unrealistic.

Thank you for saying that.  It's an appointment-only shelter but
realistically I don't know if they'd take an older kitten with this sort
of behavioral issue.  I already called them and said that I was trying
to figure out solutions to this and they mailed me some more ideas
(which I've been implementing, see the OP.)

I mentioned that the cat wants to go out and I'm thinking of letting him
be an indoor/outdoor cat and they reacted strongly and quickly against
that.  I had told them (and intended) to keep him indoors when I adopted
him.  But it isn't working out very well: whenever someone in our family
of five (plus a dog) opens a door the cat goes shooting out it if he's
nearby.  I'm not comfortable with dropping everything to chase him six
times a day.

> I'll probably catch hell from some for saying this but realistically, there
> is no way I could *allow* an animal to ruin any part of my home or cause it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> death sentence that would work out just fine. It's a tough call to make.
> Good luck....

I'm going to try a few more things: today was only the third day he
hadn't pooped on the floor (mind you, it's only 1 pm) but I still have
some ideas involving tin foil or pans of water.  We're not keen on
telling the children that the cat didn't behave well so we got rid of
him.  It sort of works against the message we're trying to send the
children about what family means, if you know what I mean.

We've also scheduled him for feline leukemia shots and we'll get him a
collar and microchip and then let him out for intervals during the day.
 I think.  I'm still not sure about that.

Part of the problem is that we're going away for ten days in less than a
week and suddenly I've realized that the kids we have coming in to feed
the fish and cat and get the mail aren't going to be interested in
chasing the cat around the yard as well as cleaning up cat sh.t every
day.  It'll be hard enough persuading them to empty the clumps from the
kitty litter every day.  Our old cat was so incredibly easy to take care
of (free fed, indoor/outdoor with little litter box maintenance) that
the high needs of this one are just challenging to imagine handing off
to a kid.

Do you suppose I should pay to kennel him?  I've never kenneled a cat
before!

Dally
KellyH - 18 Jun 2004 19:58 GMT
> I'm going to try a few more things: today was only the third day he
> hadn't pooped on the floor (mind you, it's only 1 pm) but I still have
> some ideas involving tin foil or pans of water.  We're not keen on
> telling the children that the cat didn't behave well so we got rid of
> him.  It sort of works against the message we're trying to send the
> children about what family means, if you know what I mean.

Thank you for teaching your children that pets are not disposable.

> We've also scheduled him for feline leukemia shots and we'll get him a
> collar and microchip and then let him out for intervals during the day.
>   I think.  I'm still not sure about that.

Is there any way you can secure your yard, or at least part of it?

> Part of the problem is that we're going away for ten days in less than a
> week and suddenly I've realized that the kids we have coming in to feed
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Do you suppose I should pay to kennel him?  I've never kenneled a cat
> before!

Personally, I would take him to a kennel.  You're right, kids are not going
to clean poop off the floor, and they shouldn't be responsible for him if he
runs out the door.  Also, being in a kennel might be good for his litterbox
issue.  He will have no choice but to use the litterbox, this might carry
over to when he gets back home.

If he prefers the open litterbox, use it.  Some cats just don't like the
covered ones.  Some cats also never cover their poop.  I read in another
thread on here that it means they aren't afraid of their poop being found,
that they are comfortable in their surroundings.  I guess it's a compliment
in a way.

Good luck.  Thank you for taking the time to try to solve the problem.  If
it doesn't work, most no-kill shelters do have a return policy.  They try to
work with the adopters on the problems, but they do want the adoption to be
a happy one, and will take back a cat if it is not working out.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
Check out www.snittens.com

Laura R. - 18 Jun 2004 21:50 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:47:35 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Dally (dally@myself.com) said,
> Do you suppose I should pay to kennel him?  I've never kenneled a cat
> before!

No, but I would pay for a professional catsitter rather than a couple
of kids. Best of luck with the behavior modification, and please give
the little guy a few more chances. You sound (justifiably)
frustrated, but he'll learn eventually.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Dally - 19 Jun 2004 00:34 GMT
> circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:47:35 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Dally (dally@myself.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the little guy a few more chances. You sound (justifiably)
> frustrated, but he'll learn eventually.

I was feeling pretty happy today, as he managed to sh.t in the large,
open, preferred-mixture litter box in the preferred corner not once, but
TWICE today.

Then he managed to come up with a third sh.t - on the floor outside the
box.  (Clean box, BTW, since I clean up his sh.t after him every time.)

He sticks around after he sh.ts to watch me clean it up.  I'm pretty
sure that's part of the fun of it - he likes to admire his work.

My husband wants to ditch him at his brother's farm as a barn, figuring
another cat whose been neutered and had his shots would be welcome.

I'm just feeling sad.  He has no other behavior problems at all.  He
gets along great with our dog (and is much needed companionship for the
dog - I work from home, but I mostly ignore them both when I'm at work.)

Right now I've confined him to a room upstairs that has food, water,
ventilation and the preferred open kitty litter box (identical to the
one downstairs) that he has never sh.t in.  Never.  (That's the room
that our former cat used to use and where I *thought* he'd use.  We
didn't used to have his food in there, but it's not near the box.)  My
plan for the moment is to leave him in there until he sh.ts in that box.
 (I tried this method once before and it didn't work.)

I'm considering leaving him locked in that room for the entire 10 days
we're gone, leaving just one litter box for the kids to handle.  As
opposed to turning him into a feral barn cat or returning him as
unadoptable to the shelter.  :-(

Dally, feeling defeated
Laura R. - 19 Jun 2004 00:51 GMT
circa Fri, 18 Jun 2004 19:34:17 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Dally (dally@myself.com) said,
> I was feeling pretty happy today, as he managed to sh.t in the large,
> open, preferred-mixture litter box in the preferred corner not once, but
> TWICE today.
>
> Then he managed to come up with a third sh.t - on the floor outside the
> box.  (Clean box, BTW, since I clean up his sh.t after him every time.)

Okay, but that is an improvement over before, right? He's not going
to just suddenly do it right 100% of the time. The fact that he's
getting *better* is good, even though he's not gotten *perfect* yet.
Keep working at it.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Sherry - 19 Jun 2004 02:12 GMT
>He sticks around after he sh.ts to watch me clean it up.  I'm pretty
>sure that's part of the fun of it - he likes to admire his work.

Again, let's get realistic. I hope you don't truly believe what you've written.

Sherry
KellyH - 19 Jun 2004 02:26 GMT
> I'm just feeling sad.  He has no other behavior problems at all.  He
> gets along great with our dog (and is much needed companionship for the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> opposed to turning him into a feral barn cat or returning him as
> unadoptable to the shelter.  :-(

I suggest you call the shelter again and explain how desperate you are.  If
you had adopted from me, I would take the cat back rather than have you dump
him at a farm, especially since you are getting ready to leave for 10 days
and won't be able to work with him during that time.
This situation is going to take time to resolve, and won't happen in one
day.

Signature

-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
Check out www.snittens.com

Mary - 19 Jun 2004 03:46 GMT
>> My husband wants to ditch him at his brother's farm as a barn, figuring
> another cat whose been neutered and had his shots would be welcome.

Please don't let him do this. You have not given this boy enough time. I
know how gross and frustrating it is, but you obviously care enough to try
and work with him, so just a little more time? You can persuade hubby.

> Right now I've confined him to a room upstairs that has food, water,
> ventilation and the preferred open kitty litter box (identical to the
> one downstairs) that he has never sh.t in.  Never.

I hope this works. If not, you will  know you have given it your best. Like
Rob, I too draw the line at having to live with filth. Dealing with the
contents of the catbox IN the catbox is enough for me. Good luck.
Mary - 18 Jun 2004 23:18 GMT
> He never buries it, and
> occasionally steps in it and tracks it around.  (Have I mentioned that
> this cat isn't very endearing to me?

I had a non-poop covering cat for 20 years. I broke her of it by gently
picking her up wherever she was when I noticed the uncovered poo, talking to
her soothingly, placing her gently in the box, taking her little paws and
very gently covering the poo with litter using her paws. When covered, I
said "Good girl" and petted and praised her, still in the box. She
absolutely hated this, but after maybe ten times she always covered her poo,
if only just to keep me from going through the routine.

Just an FYI--"sh.t" as a noun is not so bad, but used as a verb really
grosses me out. Given my language, that probably seems funny. But there it
is anyway.
Dally - 19 Jun 2004 00:36 GMT
> Just an FYI--"sh.t" as a noun is not so bad, but used as a verb really
> grosses me out. Given my language, that probably seems funny. But there it
> is anyway.

I chose to be a bit offensive because the circumstances are so
offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
is so offensive.

Dally
Sherry - 19 Jun 2004 02:09 GMT
>I chose to be a bit offensive because the circumstances are so
>offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
>is so offensive.
>
>Dally

Oh, please. It's a body function. It's not that offensive a subject.

Sherry
Mary - 19 Jun 2004 03:55 GMT
> >I chose to be a bit offensive because the circumstances are so
> >offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Oh, please. It's a body function. It's not that offensive a subject.

What I find really strange about myself is that the deed and situation and
substance does not bother me a bit, but the word "sh.t" used as a verb
really does. It makes me want to dismiss Dally as trailer trash, and I know
that is wrong. *Sheesh* At the end I will just be a collection of loosely
connected idiosyncrasies, I guess.

> Sherry
Dally - 19 Jun 2004 04:27 GMT
>>>I chose to be a bit offensive because the circumstances are so
>>>offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>>Oh, please. It's a body function. It's not that offensive a subject.

I think it's pertinant that I *find* the fact that the cat can't
evacuate his bowels in an acceptable place offensive.  Other people
might not mind, and for the first month I was fairly blase about it.
(Honestly, for the first month I thought he did it every OTHER day, but
then I discovered that my husband was cleaning it up on the days I
didn't see it first.)

> What I find really strange about myself is that the deed and situation and
> substance does not bother me a bit, but the word "sh.t" used as a verb
> really does.

I need to distinguish between urinary and bowel output.  It's worth
mentioning that we have no problems at all with his urination.  He
covers it, goes in any box (and always in a box) and there's been no
spraying.  (It might help that we neutered him before he was five months
old.)  The problem is his bowel movements.  I suppose I could say his
pooping, but I feel like that sounds too silly.  And I'm too mad not to
use coarse language.  (You've got to admit, this would make you want to
say "sh.t" a lot, too, don't you think?)

> It makes me want to dismiss Dally as trailer trash, and I know
> that is wrong. *Sheesh* At the end I will just be a collection of loosely
> connected idiosyncrasies, I guess.

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.  Rather than defend my
socio-economic status (which doesn't really matter in this case), I'll
tell you some pet-owning pedigree:  when we wanted to get a kitten we
decided NOT to get one from a local family who had allowed their cat to
have "just one litter so the kids could see the miracle of birth."  We
didn't want to support that, even indirectly.

So we went to the local shelter and went through adoption procedures and
screening (including a call to our vet.)  We brought our dog with us to
the shelter to help interview cats.  I meant to get a tiny little girl,
but after a few visits we came home with this four month old male by
consensus of the kids and dog.

Our last cat was also from this same shelter.  She was an adult when we
got her and her previous life on the street left it's mark: she had a
heart problem and died young.  The difference between an adult cat with
a heart problem and a healthy young cat is quite marked in their energy
levels - and litter box output - but we've been okay about having a cat
that is jumping off the walls.  It's kind of fun.  And we never have to
worry about bumps in the night... it's always the cat!

I'm trying to make this work.  I'll call around about kennelling
tomorrow.  I'm a bit worried about leaving him alone all day, anyway.
He's quite a people-cat and I think he's a bit young to leave alone,
even with two or three visits a day.  (Our last cat was such low
maintenance - it's astonishing how much work this kitten is!)

Dally
Sherry - 19 Jun 2004 04:51 GMT
>I think it's pertinant that I *find* the fact that the cat can't
>evacuate his bowels in an acceptable place offensive.

Just curious, but what type of flooring is he using? Vinyl or carpet? Is the
particular place he's using rather protected or out in the open?

Sherry
Dally - 19 Jun 2004 14:08 GMT
>>I think it's pertinant that I *find* the fact that the cat can't
>>evacuate his bowels in an acceptable place offensive.
>
> Just curious, but what type of flooring is he using? Vinyl or carpet? Is the
> particular place he's using rather protected or out in the open?

Tile, in the direct line of sight of the kitchen doorway.  (I hated to
have a toilet visible from the kitchen - thought it was yucky - but
that's what I've got.)  I had been putting his litter box in a more
sheltered corner of that bathroom (not visible unless you're in the
room) and he'll pee in the litterbox in that (or any) location.

I honestly think there might be some element of admiring his work.  He
always sticks around to watch me clean it up.

Right now he's meowing piteously to get out of the laundry-room.  I keep
going in there to play with him, etc. and he's getting clingy every-time
I leave.  I know he wants to have his morning B.M.  So far he's just
acting desparate and ignoring the litter box (except to pee.)

Dally
Sherry - 20 Jun 2004 05:12 GMT
>> Just curious, but what type of flooring is he using? Vinyl or carpet? Is
>the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>sheltered corner of that bathroom (not visible unless you're in the
>room) and he'll pee in the litterbox in that (or any) location.

OK. Sorry, I thought maybe it was carpet, and switching to tile/vinyl would
help.

>I honestly think there might be some element of admiring his work.  He
>always sticks around to watch me clean it up.

Honestly, I think you're putting a lot more human capabilities in the cat than
are there. I know you're resentful; I would be too; but he isn't planning this
whole scenario just so he can watch you clean it up. You have a tough problem
and you have my sympathy. I hope you'll try the additional litterboxes and see
if that helps. Good luck to you.

Sherry

>Right now he's meowing piteously to get out of the laundry-room.  I keep
>going in there to play with him, etc. and he's getting clingy every-time
>I leave.  I know he wants to have his morning B.M.  So far he's just
>acting desparate and ignoring the litter box (except to pee.)
>
>Dally
Laura R. - 20 Jun 2004 06:25 GMT
circa 20 Jun 2004 04:12:08 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry
(sriddles@aol.comkitty) said,
> >I honestly think there might be some element of admiring his work.  He
> >always sticks around to watch me clean it up.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and you have my sympathy. I hope you'll try the additional litterboxes and see
> if that helps. Good luck to you.

Seconded. He's a kitten, not a person, and he's still learning. I do
think that it sounds like he's *starting* to learn, but he needs time
and consistency.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Dally - 22 Jun 2004 03:24 GMT
> circa 20 Jun 2004 04:12:08 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry
> (sriddles@aol.comkitty) said,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>and you have my sympathy. I hope you'll try the additional litterboxes and see
>>if that helps. Good luck to you.

I don't know how cats think.  I know how dogs think, but I had to learn
that.  It wasn't intuitively obvious.  I really don't know what the cat
is thinking as he watches me clean up his poop, but there is SOMETHING
going on in his head.

> Seconded. He's a kitten, not a person, and he's still learning. I do
> think that it sounds like he's *starting* to learn, but he needs time
> and consistency.

I wish I could believe that he was "starting" to learn.  Here's an update.

I locked him in the laundry-room with his favorite open litter box in
one corner (a bit isolated) and his food and water dish in another
corner and his sleeping stuff in another corner.  I left him there for
two full days, going in frequently to clean out his litter box and play
with him and cuddle him (and do laundry.)

He pooped four times a day both days and even (marvel of marvels)
COVERED the poop.  (I tried the trick someone mentioned of moving his
paws for him and he got it right away.  Of course, being in the same
room as his food might have motivated him, too.)

This afternoon I let him out.  As a precaution I closed the door tightly
to the downstairs powder-room (where he always poops on the floor) and
warned everyone to keep that door closed.

Within 45 minutes the cat had gotten into the powderroom and sh.t on the
floor.  (With the help of a five year old who doesn't flush, much less
close doors.)

I don't even know where he's coming up with all these bowel movements.
He's not free-fed (our dog is a Lab who would happily find and eat the
food).  We feed the cat twice a day in amounts specified on the packaging.

Frankly, I've seen no progress whatsoever.  With the exception of three
random times when he went in litterboxes in that corner, every single
other time he's had access to that bathroom he has always sh.t on the floor.

We're leaving on Wednesday.  We can't kennel him because he hasn't had
all the proper shots to be around other cats.  (And the vet can't see us
until AFTER we get back.)  So I'm paying a pet sitter to come visit him
in the morning and a neighbor-kid to come visit him in the evening, but
he's going to be locked in the tiny laundry-room the rest of the time
all by himself.

I just keep telling myself that it's better than being killed or
becoming an barn cat.

It's just so depressing because he's a nice, affectionate, fun cat in
all ways except this one thing.  But sh.tting on the floor every day is
just not acceptable to me.  It's really not.  I wish I knew why he did it.

Dally, feeling depressed
Mary - 22 Jun 2004 04:25 GMT
> This afternoon I let him out.

You let him out too soon. Patience. And, congratulations
on finding a tactic that works. Leave him in the laundry room, with visits,
etc. for at least ten days. It seems cruel but it is not. The alternative is
that you will be unable to keep him, and nobody else will either. (I'm glad
you showed him how to cover his poop, and that it seemed to help.) You're
doing a good job, just keep at it and be patient! You are this misguided
kitty's only guardian angel.
Dally - 22 Jun 2004 04:40 GMT
>>This afternoon I let him out.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> doing a good job, just keep at it and be patient! You are this misguided
> kitty's only guardian angel.

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm finding it lonely going here IRL.

Dally
Mary - 22 Jun 2004 05:21 GMT
> Thanks for the encouragement.  I'm finding it lonely going here IRL.

Well, as frustrated as you are, it is clear that you love
him and want to help him. I hope you succeed.
Nomen Nescio - 22 Jun 2004 07:10 GMT
From: Dally <dally@myself.com>

>Within 45 minutes the cat had gotten into the powderroom and sh.t on the
>floor.  (With the help of a five year old who doesn't flush, much less
>close doors.)

Hmmm........I wonder if that could have something to do with the problem.
Scent plays a major role in a cat's life. Maybe this could be solved with a
major cleaning and dilligent flushing........and maybe better aim. :-)
Dally - 22 Jun 2004 13:47 GMT
> From: Dally <dally@myself.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Scent plays a major role in a cat's life. Maybe this could be solved with a
> major cleaning and dilligent flushing........and maybe better aim. :-)

Believe me, that floor gets cleaned daily.  I've got Fantastik with
Bleach for the first pass and a kitty enzyme remover for the second
pass.  And the toilet (sitting within sight of the kitchen) doesn't go
unflushed for long.

Besides, this isn't spraying we're talking about.

Dally
Nomen Nescio - 22 Jun 2004 19:30 GMT
From: Dally <dally@myself.com>

>Believe me, that floor gets cleaned daily.  I've got Fantastik with
>Bleach for the first pass and a kitty enzyme remover for the second
>pass.  And the toilet (sitting within sight of the kitchen) doesn't go
>unflushed for long.

I apologize. I didn't intend to imply substandard cleanliness on your part.

My thoughts are that you've got a cat that's trying to figure out how to behave
in the new environment. Something seems to have him thinking that this is the
place he should be using instead of the box. The bleach smell should certainly
be a deterrent. But I'd still bet that there is something that is giving your cat
the impression that he should be using that spot. maybe there is some
undiscovered seepage where the toilet attaches to the drain flange.
A couple things that I might try would be to put bleach soaked rags in a plastic
container with a lid on it (with a few holes to let the scent slowly escape) right
next to the toilet. Also, I might try cleaning the cat box less frequently, especially
if your cat DOES take a dump in it.
Cats really do want to please their people. I think something has created the
impression that next to the toilet is where you want him to go. The real trick,
here, is to show that this is incorrect and that the correct solution is to use the box.

Best of luck
Vee - 22 Jun 2004 21:14 GMT
> From: Dally <dally@myself.com>
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> in the new environment. Something seems to have him thinking that this is the
> place he should be using instead of the box.

<delurk again>

I don;t want to crawl in here sounding like a bighead but...
Can I cut/paste from a UK web? Bad manners. 8(
"... Bleach contains ammonia or chlorine and both are found in urine. The
area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
the spot.

Do use a warm solution of biological detergent on the affected area. When
this has dried, a quick scrub with a little surgical spirit (or other
alcohol) should finish the job, do check for colourfastness first though!"
http://www.moggies.co.uk/articles/soiling.html

I had a doctored tom who used to appear like magic (and with a broad grin on
his face)  when I gave my hard floors a good hammering with a bleach
solution. He adored the smell and went about laying claim to everything in
the kitchen along with the occasional 'little present'.

A recue-cat lady gave me my best method of removing smelly carpet odour.
Cheap biological washing powder, sprinkled, left over night then vacuumed up
the next morning.
Mind, the whole household wheezed and turned blue during the night, but the
carpets didn't
smell any more.

Regarding the bleach and my ex-cat. He was an outdoor moggie, and only ever
misbehaved after I cleaned the floors - until I realised what was going on.
Perhaps he was a bit kinky?  Re-living his glorious misspent past?

My current pair don't bother about bleach at all.
Funny things, cats. I wonder how we appear to them?

Vee.
Mary - 22 Jun 2004 22:13 GMT
> Can I cut/paste from a UK web? Bad manners. 8(
> "... Bleach contains ammonia or chlorine and both are found in urine. The
area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
the spot.

I didn't know this! Thanks.
Vee - 23 Jun 2004 00:28 GMT
> > Can I cut/paste from a UK web? Bad manners. 8(
> > "... Bleach contains ammonia or chlorine and both are found in urine. The
> area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
> the spot.
>
> I didn't know this! Thanks.

Obviously we have/had very touchy cats.
My current cat number two, 'I like this house; I am going to live here; feed
me,' well, if you poured neat bleach over his cat food he would lap it up,
chemicals and all... and there's the problem.
I will start a proper thread.

Vee
Steve G - 23 Jun 2004 17:46 GMT
> > Can I cut/paste from a UK web? Bad manners. 8(
> > "... Bleach contains ammonia or chlorine and both are found in urine. The
> area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
> the spot.
>
> I didn't know this! Thanks.

Well, there's a grain of truth there, but:

- Bleach (Sodium hypochlorite) doesn't contain ammonia.
- Bleach will liberate chlorine gas if mixed with acids, ammonia or
urine, but using bleach otherwise will not liberate chlorine. If
bleach contained ammonia, we would have lots of exploding bottles of
Clorox on supermarket shelves.

If cats piss on a bleach-cleaned area, then I guess it's because
either (i) mixing the bleach with residual urine has released
chlorine, or (ii) bleach itself smells pissy to a cat, regardless of
whether the chlorine has been released or not.

S.
Dally - 22 Jun 2004 22:17 GMT
>>From: Dally <dally@myself.com>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
> the spot.

Oh my.

Well, there's goes the Fantastik with bleach.  (But mind you, I was
putting the kitty enzyme removal stuff on over it.)

Here's what we're trying now:

1. I put a sign on the door to the powderroom telling everyone to shut
it tightly.  Not that it'll work, but maybe we can change our behavior
somewhat.

2. I was told to clean out his box less often.  That seems reasonable
since he's now covering his poops.  (He insists on open boxes and when
he wasn't covering, well, I HAD to clean out his box every time he
went.)  But maybe I'm confusing him about where he's supposed to go.  So
now I'm cleaning clumps out twice a day instead of four times a day.

3. We're going to get spray bottles and have kids stand guard in the
powder-room to shoot him with water if he comes in there and squats.

4.  We're getting a citris spray for the bathroom.

I had a long talk with the shelter today.  The cat specialist wants us
to bring him back and let her have a try at retraining him.  She'd give
us "credit" for a new cat.  I was stunned at the thought of EXCHANGING
him.  I told her we'll try our ten days of detention (starting tomorrow,
while we're gone) followed by a few more attempts and I'll call her in a
couple of weeks.

But my feeling is that if I can't fix this cat (who is perfectly nice in
al other ways) then I ought not to own a cat.

Dally
Laura R. - 23 Jun 2004 02:07 GMT
circa Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:17:37 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Dally (dally@myself.com) said,

> But my feeling is that if I can't fix this cat (who is perfectly nice in
> al other ways) then I ought not to own a cat.

I wouldn't say that you shouldn't own *any* cat. I do hope, though,
that this all works out and you end up with a happy, well-behaved
little guy. :-)

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Sherry - 23 Jun 2004 04:16 GMT
>Oh my.
>
>Well, there's goes the Fantastik with bleach.  (But mind you, I was
>putting the kitty enzyme removal stuff on over it.)

Dally, I hate to confuse all of us further, but....read on your enzyme cleaner
label. Mine says to use the enzyme cleaner *before* using any kind of
detergent, or the effectiveness of the enzyme action is hindered. It doesn't
work like it's supposed to if you use cleaners first.
(But then, since you've got a nice, hard surface and not carpet, it should work
fine anyway)....
YES, you should own a cat. Honest. They're not all so much trouble. You've
shown so much patience and willingness to help this cat, by all means, you
should be a pet owner.
It's a guessing game, really, sometimes. Maybe he is stressed and would do
wonderfully in a home with no dogs or children. Or then again, maybe he would
benefit from the company of other cats, since he was only recently removed from
his mother/littermates. It's nice to know that the shelter personnel is willing
to work with him and give him a second chance, if it comes to that.
Good luck.
Sherry
RobZip - 23 Jun 2004 16:23 GMT
> Dally, I hate to confuse all of us further, but....read on your enzyme cleaner
> label. Mine says to use the enzyme cleaner *before* using any kind of
> detergent, or the effectiveness of the enzyme action is hindered. It doesn't
> work like it's supposed to if you use cleaners first.

Right. Enzymes are living organisms that multiply and consume the bacteria
that cause the trace odors. Use of detergents first can damage the
environment to the extent that the enzymes cannot multiply or are killed
outright.
Mary - 23 Jun 2004 20:17 GMT
(after Sherry wrote)
> doesn't
> > work like it's supposed to if you use cleaners first.
>
> Right. Enzymes are living organisms that multiply and consume the bacteria
that cause the trace odors. Use of detergents first can damage
theenvironment to the extent that the enzymes cannot multiply or are killed
outright.

You people are a wealth of information. I imagine that if the area is
thoroughly rinsed after the detergent is used, and allowed to dry over time,
then the enzymes still will not work? I have a spot Buddha used several
times when she was upset with me, and I did use detergent but it still
smells.
Laura R. - 23 Jun 2004 20:53 GMT
circa Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:17:12 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Mary (rosefan@email.com) said,
> You people are a wealth of information. I imagine that if the area is
> thoroughly rinsed after the detergent is used, and allowed to dry over time,
> then the enzymes still will not work? I have a spot Buddha used several
> times when she was upset with me, and I did use detergent but it still
> smells.

It's probably a fifty-fifty proposition. Worth trying.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

-L. : - 24 Jun 2004 03:56 GMT
> > Dally, I hate to confuse all of us further, but....read on your enzyme
>  cleaner
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> environment to the extent that the enzymes cannot multiply or are killed
> outright.

Not exactly.  Enzymes are proteins or protein complexes which cause a
chemical reaction.  They are biologically active, but do not reproduce
and are not "alive".  A lot of other chemicals can denature them,
which kills their activity.  They are also usually sensitive to
temperature, pH and other environmental factors.  So, if there is any
residual cleaner, it is most likely the enzyme(s) would be
inactivated.

-L.
-L. : - 23 Jun 2004 06:46 GMT
> Well, there's goes the Fantastik with bleach.  (But mind you, I was
> putting the kitty enzyme removal stuff on over it.)

Coming late to this thread, but I have been OOT...

FWIW, I have found the enzyme-based cleaners to be crappy. Below, I'm
posting the recs I always make (copied from an old post) for cleaning
and de-stinking animal emissions.  These are remedies I have come up
with over the years of being guardian to all types of animals -
mammals and reptiles, and as working as a vet tech for a feline
specialty hospital.  NODOR is used in professional kennels, stables,
and farm settings.

***
I recommend ODOKLEEN cleaner to remove any vomit, urine or feces (it
requires lots of rinsing, though - a wet vac works wonders for this),
and then treating the area with ODOKILL or NODOR to remove the odor.
I have yet to find an odor which is not removed using NODOR.  ODOKLEEN
and ODOKILL are available through pet supply stores (like PetSmart,
sonmetimes).  NODOR is made by
Nu-Scents in Knoxville, TN, USA.  They are a very small company and do
not ship outside of NA.   Their product can be ordered in the US by
credit card by calling 1*(800)*262*9366.  They ship via UPS. They are
very nice people.  NODOR will kill male cat spray smell.
***

The other thing I would try is Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract cat litter -
http://www.preciouscat.com/WebPages/catattract.html.  I have had great
success using this for "problem pee-ers" I have had as fosters and
have recommended it many times to people who have sought my help with
their own problem kitties.

Best of luck to you and kitty,
-L.
Laura R. - 23 Jun 2004 02:05 GMT
circa Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:14:28 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Vee (marrowjam@[totally) said,

> I don;t want to crawl in here sounding like a bighead but...
> Can I cut/paste from a UK web? Bad manners. 8(
> "... Bleach contains ammonia or chlorine and both are found in urine. The
> area will smell clean to us but a confused cat will only want to over-mark
> the spot.

I don't know about the UK, but here in the US, bleach *definitely*
does not contain ammonia. Ammonia and bleach, in fact, produce toxic
gas if combined.

Just a side note. :-)

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Laura R. - 23 Jun 2004 02:04 GMT
circa Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:30:06 +0200 (CEST), in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Nomen Nescio (Use-Author-Supplied-
Address-Header@[127.1]) said,
> A couple things that I might try would be to put bleach soaked rags in a plastic
> container with a lid on it (with a few holes to let the scent slowly escape) right
> next to the toilet. Also, I might try cleaning the cat box less frequently, especially
> if your cat DOES take a dump in it.

Good ideas, IMO.

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde

Mary - 19 Jun 2004 07:24 GMT
> I need to distinguish between urinary and bowel output.

I see. Well, there's "poop" &  "pee;"  "defecate"  & "urinate;"  "do #2" &
"do #1";" & "pinch a loaf & "shake the dew off his lily."

"sh.t" as a verb was not the only choice, just the most vulgar, wharfy,
trailer-parky choice.

Having said that I celebrate your right to use any words you choose. I
really don't give a sh.t.

<  I suppose I could say his
> pooping, but I feel like that sounds too silly.  And I'm too mad not to
> use coarse language.  (You've got to admit, this would make you want to
> say "sh.t" a lot, too, don't you think?)

No.
Sherry - 19 Jun 2004 04:40 GMT
>> >I chose to be a bit offensive because the circumstances are so
>> >offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>> Sherry

We've got some weird pasting or  going on here. Just wanted to mention that,
since much of this post is attributed to me, and I didn't write it.
I hate to get credit for other people's words. I seem to get into enough
trouble on my own :-)

Sherry
Mary - 19 Jun 2004 03:47 GMT
> > Just an FYI--"sh.t" as a noun is not so bad, but used as a verb really
> > grosses me out. Given my language, that probably seems funny. But there it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> offensive.  My words fit my mood and meaning.  The subject and situation
> is so offensive.

Well then you are a very effective writer. Thanks for spreading the
sunshine. I counted about 15 sh.ts in the last post, so I guess you do find
it theraputic. I'm all for venting. You don't want to keep that sh.t inside.
:')
Cathy Friedmann - 19 Jun 2004 04:56 GMT
> > Just an FYI--"sh.t" as a noun is not so bad, but used as a verb really
> > grosses me out. Given my language, that probably seems funny. But there it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Dally

IMO, peeing outside of the litter box is more offensive - a bigger problem
to deal with.  One of my cats pooped outside of the litter box when she was
young.  (3 litter boxes, placed all in a row, solved the problem.)   Even
though I wasn't overly fond of her pooping outside the box, I was very
grateful that she -was- peeing in the box!  Cleaning up poop is a whole lot
easier, IMO, than cleaning up urine.  It doesn't run down between
floorboards, it doesn't soak into rugs, etc., etc., as urine does.  And as
soon as you clean it up & flush it - the odor is *gone*.

Cathy
Mary - 19 Jun 2004 07:28 GMT
> IMO, peeing outside of the litter box is more offensive - a bigger problem
> to deal with.

This has been my experience too. Nothing like diving into bed exhausted and
finding that wet spot. At least poop is obvious.
MadHatter - 19 Jun 2004 00:49 GMT
>> He never buries it, and
>> occasionally steps in it and tracks it around.  (Have I mentioned that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>absolutely hated this, but after maybe ten times she always covered her poo,
>if only just to keep me from going through the routine.

that's very motherly! :)  mother cats do teach their kittens how to do
that, right?  perhaps her kitten never learned.  i helped my kitten a
few times to cover her poo and she eventually started doing it with me
and now it's always covered.

-L
Mary - 19 Jun 2004 04:02 GMT
> >I had a non-poop covering cat for 20 years. I broke her of it by gently
picking her up wherever she was when I noticed the uncovered poo, talking to
her soothingly, placing her gently in the box, taking her little paws and
very gently covering the poo with litter using her paws.

> that's very motherly! :)

Well, I really loved that cat, although she had few redeeming virtues. :') I
know how to pick 'em! I'm worried that Dally just doesn't like this cat
enough to hang with it until she can modify its behavior. If so, I hope she
opts for a return to the shelter rather than the barn.
Laura R. - 19 Jun 2004 05:10 GMT
circa Sat, 19 Jun 2004 03:02:14 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Mary (rosefan@email.com) said,
> I'm worried that Dally just doesn't like this cat
> enough to hang with it until she can modify its behavior.

That's my worry, too. :-(

Laura
Signature

Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes.
-Oscar Wilde