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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2010Cat Psychology
Who knows what a purr is really all about? If my cat is purring and I leave her alone, I feel a bit guilty. If your cat is purring, and you fail to pet her, does it hurt her feelings? Suddenly, without warning, Mark Earnest exclaimed (2/6/2010 6:12 PM): > Who knows what a purr is really all about? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If your cat is purring, and you fail to pet her, > does it hurt her feelings? Pretty much, if I fail to pet my cat when an opportunity presents itself, it hurts her feelings. She can give such a LOOK - grandmas have nothing on her! Actually, I'm pretty sure in her world, I am only here to pet her, provide a lap, feed her, and clean the litterbox. Pretty much in that order :) I love my cat. I think she loves me too, but who can tell? :) jmc > Suddenly, without warning, Mark Earnest exclaimed (2/6/2010 6:12 PM): >> Who knows what a purr is really all about? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I love my cat. I think she loves me too, but who can tell? :) Sure cats are hurt whenever they purr and you don't love them back. Anyone that doesn't know cats can love don't know what love is to begin with. Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:38:52 -0600 from Mark Earnest <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: > Sure cats are hurt whenever they purr and you don't love them back. > Anyone that doesn't know cats can love don't know what love is > to begin with. Sentimental twaddle. Cats are out for themselves. Through the luck of the evolutionary draw, their natural behavior (snuggling, purring) mimics affection in the eyes of us, their humans, but it's not love. It's really an excellent example of symbiosis. They have managed to fill a niche in our houses without being expected to do tricks, like dogs. Don't get me wrong -- I love cats in general and mine in particular. But I have no illusion that he has similar feelings for me.  SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:38:52 -0600 from Mark Earnest > <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sentimental twaddle. Wouldn't a proper forum on cats be all about sentiments? > Cats are out for themselves. Through the luck of the evolutionary > draw, their natural behavior (snuggling, purring) mimics affection in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Don't get me wrong -- I love cats in general and mine in particular. > But I have no illusion that he has similar feelings for me. Then I guess you never had your tomcat bring you a bird or lizard it killed especially for you. Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: > > Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:38:52 -0600 from Mark Earnest > > <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Wouldn't a proper forum on cats be all about sentiments? Not "all" about, but sentiment is certainly a large part. It's not the sentiment I object to, but the twaddle. > > Don't get me wrong -- I love cats in general and mine in > > particular. But I have no illusion that he has similar feelings > > for me. > > Then I guess you never had your tomcat bring you a bird or lizard > it killed especially for you. A mouse, actually, but what has that to do with love? SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest > <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Not "all" about, but sentiment is certainly a large part. It's not > the sentiment I object to, but the twaddle. What is twaddle about love? That is the motivating force of the world. If you are embarassed by the word love, you should have nothing to do with cats then. >> > Don't get me wrong -- I love cats in general and mine in >> > particular. But I have no illusion that he has similar feelings [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > A mouse, actually, but what has that to do with love? The cat gave that to you you. He went out of his way to get that for you. > Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest > <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > A mouse, actually, but what has that to do with love? I am not sure you should have cats, Stan. A short while ago I had a migraine and the accompanying terribly retching. You would think my old cat would run for the hills. Instead, she hovered, stayed close to me, tried to sleep right up against me until she read my signals and saw that I really needed to be left alone. It was unusual behavior for her. Every time I opened the bathroom door she was there looking worried, and she followed me back to bed, jumped up, and meowed questioningly. This is not anthropomorphism. It was not feeding time. She was worried about me. They most certainly do love. And presenting prey is indeed done in part to show their esteem. A few years ago I spent a week in the hospital with sepsis. The cats were fed by a neighbor. Amber was so stressed that she licked all the fur off of a big spot on one side. The vet gave her a prednisone shot and the fur grew back. I'm pretty sure that Amber loves me and missed me. My absence didn't seem to bother Tiger at all. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (2/8/2010 4:01 PM): >> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest >> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > was not feeding time. She was worried about me. They most certainly do love. > And presenting prey is indeed done in part to show their esteem. I've heard a couple of theories on the mouse-gift behavior: 1. It's a present 2. They're showing off - look at me the mighty hunter! 3. They are trying to help - you go out all the time and never bring back any food (cats likely don't understand groceries, per this theory), so they think you're a terrible hunter and are trying to help. #3 sounds real cute except they do see us eat :) Knowing cats, I'm going with a combination of #1 and #2 :) As far as the worried behavior when you're sick - Yes, Meep does that too. It's very comforting when I feel like crap, to have her curl up near me and purr. jmc > Suddenly, without warning, cybercat exclaimed (2/8/2010 4:01 PM): >>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > any food (cats likely don't understand groceries, per this theory), so > they think you're a terrible hunter and are trying to help. or 4. "I've rid the Earth of another vile creature, to pay you back for feeding me." > Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest > <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > A mouse, actually, but what has that to do with love? Well, I don't know whether it's love or not, but if you could see the way my cats act when my wife goes down to California for a week or so to visit her grandkids, you would know that there is something they feel for her. It isn't just food, because I feed them just as well as she does. And it isn't just the brushing, because I brush them just as much as she does.....So what is it about her that they like so much? When she is gone, they treat me like it's my fault she went away, and they shine up to me so that I will bring her back.....And, it works.....After a while she comes back! And they are very happy.....You can almost see them high fiveing each other, and saying, "We were successful again..... dad brought her back." >> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest >> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > each other, and saying, "We were successful again..... dad brought her > back." See, when you live with cats long enough, you learn their language. It is more the way they treat you than language, but language nonetheless. >>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest >>> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > See, when you live with cats long enough, you learn their language. > It is more the way they treat you than language, but language nonetheless. Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on the front porch and blow the whistle three times, and in about 5 minutes, he comes running down the block......Sure, I give him a goodie.....Usually a bowl of milk.....But he did this from the get go, without any training on my part. I have had many cats, but this is the only one that comes when I call him like a dog would...... >>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest >>>> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > my part. I have had many cats, but this is the only one that comes when I > call him like a dog would...... Then not only do you know your cats language, but one of your cats knows your language, in this case, a shrill noise silent to the human ear. >>>>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest >>>>> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Then not only do you know your cats language, but one of your cats > knows your language, in this case, a shrill noise silent to the human ear. Yes....Well, to be fair, it started when he was young and very happy with me, because I took him out of a Burger King parking lot, and brought him home and fed him some real cat chow. At that time, he came running no matter what noise I made, just because he was so happy to be around. Then he shortly learned to associate the dog whistle with me and some goodie or other, so now he probably just comes for the goodie.....The parking lot is around five years ago, so I doubt if he remembers it any more. [This followup was posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav and a copy was sent to the cited author.] > >>> Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:33:54 -0600 from Mark Earnest > >>> <gmearnest@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > part. I have had many cats, but this is the only one that comes when I call > him like a dog would...... Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd throw a busy ball and he'd run, pick it up with his mouth and bring it back to me so I could throw it again. >> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on the >> front porch and blow the whistle three times, and in about 5 minutes, he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> call >> him like a dog would...... How many of your cats have been hit by cars? >>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on the >>> front porch and blow the whistle three times, and in about 5 minutes, he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How many of your cats have been hit by cars? I've never had a cat that died via automobile, but I had one that had a limp and a lump when we got her.....She came with the house. I don't know how she got the limp and lump, but I speculate that it could well have been because of a run-in with a car. In any case I don't want to have another session about inside/outside cat arguments.....It's ground that has been gone over many times before. All of my cats were outside cats when I got them, and have remained so after I got them. If I lived in downtown New York City, this wouldn't be the case, but I don't. You don't know where I live, and so you can't give me any advice on this issue.....'nough said..... >>>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on >>>> the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the case, but I don't. You don't know where I live, and so you can't > give me any advice on this issue.....'nough said..... Yes, the discussion does get old. However, there are always new posters arriving here and others have departed. It is something some of the newbies need to know. Best wishes. MLB >>>>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on >>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > arriving here and others have departed. It is something some of the > newbies need to know. Best wishes. MLB I don't fight about it any more. I just have my say and killfile the people who allow their cats to roam unsupervised in urban and suburban areas. "Down the block" infers that the OP was talking about such an area, with plenty of cars and any dog or sadistic cat torturer who happens to be around. If you love them, keep them in. If you don't, don't have them. And don't try to argue that allowing domesticated animals to roam exposed to anything that happens by is fine. It is not fine. >>>>>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on >>>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >argue that allowing domesticated animals to roam exposed to anything that >happens by is fine. It is not fine. It is even worse for cats to roam in rural areas. Depending on where you are, snakes, raccoons, lizards, coyotes, bobcats/lynx, wolves, the list goes on and on. Where I am we have everything except lizards. Cats are better off roaming in Midtown Mantattan than here. >>>>>>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out on >>>>>>> the [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Cats are better off roaming in Midtown Mantattan than here. Agreed being in Florida you can add to that list gators anacondas crocodiles multiple snake types feral dogs >>>>>>>> Well, I have one that responds to a dog whistle......I can go out >>>>>>>> on [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Agreed being in Florida you can add to that list gators anacondas > crocodiles multiple snake types feral dogs It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and where we live without ever being here, and meeting me or the cats and seeing my living circumstances......You guys must be liberals, right? Only liberals would presume to know so much that they can tell other people what to do and how to live without actually spending any time in their shoes. You guys should have been born ants in an ant colony.....There, every ant is exactly like every other ant....What one does, they all do, and if any one ant deviates from the pattern, he is immediately killed by all the other ants. This would be perfect for you. It would suit your tiny imaginations perfectly. But not to worry. Politically, we are rapidly approaching that circumstance. The way things are going, in another 100 years or so, we are all going to be living exactly like that......I am only sorry that I won't be there to usher you into your padded cells........ >It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and where >we live without ever being here, and meeting me or the cats and seeing my [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >all going to be living exactly like that......I am only sorry that I won't >be there to usher you into your padded cells........ It seems a norm in my neighbourhood (outer Sydney Austrailia) for the cat to come inside or go out when they want. I suppose a cat could get hit by a golf ball? We do have roads and teens with fast cars? My and neighbours cats don't seem to co to harm in 30 years never seen a dead cat on local road (VERY unlucky to kill a cat) The fastest I've seen my cat come inside is from the top of her Japanese maple when a cockatoo (native parrot) decided to visit >>It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>where [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The fastest I've seen my cat come inside is from the top of her > Japanese maple when a cockatoo (native parrot) decided to visit If your cat is wild, nature helps a wild animal. If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. > If your cat is wild, nature helps a wild animal. > If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. And how, exactly does "Nature help a wild animal"? It would seem to me that nature manages to starve and freeze to death literally millions of wild animals every year. Most of my cats were, "wild" before they found me. In direct defiance of "nature", I took them in and gave them a good home with plenty of warmth, food and water and a vets inspection a couple of times a year. I don't have to lock them up in order to keep them.....They are smart enough to know when they are well off. >> If your cat is wild, nature helps a wild animal. >> If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. > > And how, exactly does "Nature help a wild animal"? Go camping in the woods some day, and see how the wild animal in you is helped. It would seem to me that > nature manages to starve and freeze to death literally millions of wild > animals every year. Most of my cats were, "wild" before they found me. In > direct defiance of "nature", I took them in and gave them a good home with > plenty of warmth, food and water and a vets inspection a couple of times a > year. I don't have to lock them up in order to keep them.....They are > smart enough to know when they are well off. Surely there are people cats outside in the elements and wild animal cats kept confined indoors. If you are not sure, let him decide for himself. >>> It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>> where [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > If your cat is wild, nature helps a wild animal. > If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. IMHO Mother Nature is a cruel mother. >>>> It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>>> where [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. > IMHO Mother Nature is a cruel mother. ...but a wonderful companion. >>>> It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>>> where [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> If your cat is a people cat, better leave him inside. > IMHO Mother Nature is a cruel mother. And cats are domesticated animals. FFS. P.S. Just took the baby (no 4 months old) out in the snow for the first time! In our fenced yard, in my arms. Taking no chances. There's a lovely fine snow falling, coating everything. She could not wait to get back inside. She likes cantaloupe. :P >>It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>where [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The fastest I've seen my cat come inside is from the top of her > Japanese maple when a cockatoo (native parrot) decided to visit I had one that narrowly escaped being caught by an osprey. but otherwise, they have all lived happily as inside-outside cats for many years now. And they love it......They love sleeping on my deck in the Summertime. In the Winter, they hardly go outside at all, so it wouldn't matter if I locked their cat doors, except I would be afraid that they might burn up should the house catch on fire while I am gone. Where I live, near the end of a dead end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. >>>It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and >>>where [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >house catch on fire while I am gone. Where I live, near the end of a dead >end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. A Cockatoo (parrot) while big as a cat are loud noisy and completly harmless Suddenly, without warning, Petzl exclaimed (2/12/2010 5:34 AM): > A Cockatoo (parrot) while big as a cat are loud noisy and completly > harmless Lol, try to tell my cat that. She was pretty certain they were spawn of the devil. Although, it was the magpie larks she was *really* terrified of. When she'd be out on our porch (enclosed yard, outside under supervision), they'd chase her inside all the time. Yes, I have a cat that's afraid of birds - only Aussie ones though - she shares our deck with the American ones just fine. Go ahead and laugh! I love her anyway, in all her scardycatness (yup, it's a word NOW.) jmc >Suddenly, without warning, Petzl exclaimed (2/12/2010 5:34 AM): > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >jmc My cat tends to run from birds also? Butcherbirds (nectar eaters) dive bomb her. Probably right about Cockatoo's (parrot) being spawn of the devil, a bird that sounds like a burglar alarm early morning Petzl >>Suddenly, without warning, Petzl exclaimed (2/12/2010 5:34 AM): >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > devil, a bird that sounds like a burglar alarm early morning > Petzl Go borrow your neigbors's wild tomcat. He will probably make a quick end to those diving birds. >> My cat tends to run from birds also? Butcherbirds (nectar eaters) dive >> bomb her. Probably right about Cockatoo's (parrot) being spawn of the >> devil, a bird that sounds like a burglar alarm early morning >> Petzl >Go borrow your neigbors's wild tomcat. >He will probably make a quick end to those diving birds. All cats in my neighborhood are getting too old, mines well over 20 my neighbors must be near the same, we all moved here as a new development years ago. My cat tends to stay inside most of the time only leaving for a twinkle or one banana, two banana if the birds let her Petzl >>> My cat tends to run from birds also? Butcherbirds (nectar eaters) dive >>> bomb her. Probably right about Cockatoo's (parrot) being spawn of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > her > Petzl Your cats have grown old through sheer luck. Good for you. >> All cats in my neighborhood are getting too old, mines well over 20 my >> neighbors must be near the same, we all moved here as a new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Your cats have grown old through sheer luck. Good for you. In this area it never entered ones head that a cat needs to be locked up. Times have changed, we have had nutters poisoning dogs on occasions (Dogs are locked up)? So no doubt one will have to consider looking at more careful care in future, no one wants their pet to come to harm. In the City high rise, cats are confined to apartments Petzl Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:05:48 +1100 from Petzl <petzlx@gmail.com>: > My cat tends to stay inside most of the time > only leaving for a twinkle or one banana, two banana if the birds let > her "One banana, two banana"? I've never heard that -- could you explain the expression, please? SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... Where I live, near the end of a dead > end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. I live in a similar situation. All the homes are set back far from the road. I don't remember any cats here (neighbors or mine) getting run over, but several dogs were hit and killed on the road. Cats will usually just "vanish" into thin air one day. So I can't leave mine outside. My younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it. :( Signature"No other disease or condition of companion animals takes as many lives as euthanasia. In fact, no other disease comes close." -- Janet M. Scarlett, DVM, Ph.D, Cornell University -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =^..^= ~~~ > Where I live, near the end of a dead >> end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to > fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it. :( Well, All of the cats I have right now came to me from the outside world as adults, and were used to being outside cats. If I had raised them from kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped indoors, and they wouldn't have known the difference, and probably would have been very happy. But it is not just the cats happiness I have to consider....Keeping inside cats requires a lot more trouble than keeping outside cats. You can't just leave for a week and expect your cats to do OK while you are gone as I can do with my five cats right now. So, it requires a commitment, kind of like keeping dogs does. One might say that I shouldn't have any cats at all if I let them go outside, but most of my cats would have eventually been euthanized had I not taken them in, and they have been very happy living with my wife and myself, so I am satisfied with my decision to take them in and let them come and go through the cat doors. We don't have many predators in my neighborhood, and they have all done very well living here. They all seem to get along with the raccoons well, probably because they don't compete for the same food, and I haven't seen any wild coyotes here and I have been here for 13 years now. >If I had raised them from >kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped >indoors, and they wouldn't have known the difference, and >probably would have been very >happy. I can tell you from personal experience that it is not true that all cats who have never experienced the outdoors don't know the difference and don't care. We had one whom we kept in for the first year and a half of her life, and she never accepted it. We finally caved and let her out, and she lasted another 11 years before going MIA. It is equally untrue that a cat which has lived all its life outdoors will necessarily have a problem adjusting to being indoor-only. Most of them adjust very easily, and many have no interest in the outdoors once they have moved in. >Keeping inside cats requires a lot more trouble than keeping outside >cats. You can't just leave for a week and expect your cats to do OK >while you are gone as I can do with my five cats right now. So, it >requires a commitment, kind of like keeping dogs does. Yes, it does require commitment -- more than we ever thought of when we were growing up with a bunch of barn cats around; and more, I think, than you have quite accepted. We put off getting any cats until we were no longer likely to be gone for long periods. I don't go so far as to say that one shouldn't keep cats if one is not going to keep them indoors, but I would consider five days unattended as substandard care even for those with ad lib access to the outside. When we had indoor-outdoor cats, we always felt we needed to provide house-/cat-sitters if we were gone more than a day. They need a good assessing eye run over them at least once a day. >We don't have many predators in my neighborhood, and they have all >done very well living here. They all seem to get along with the >raccoons well, probably because they don't compete for the same >food, and I haven't seen any wild coyotes here and I have been here >for 13 years now. Raccoons are no problem at all. I think foxes and coyotes get blamed more often than they are actually guilty, but both will kill cats, and if you live within their range you can be sure they are around even if you don't see them. Here, the worst cat killer, in my estimation, is the fisher -- sightings of which are extremely rare. SignatureWayne M. >>If I had raised them from >>kittenhood, then I would have considered keeping them trapped [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > you don't see them. Here, the worst cat killer, in my estimation, is > the fisher -- sightings of which are extremely rare. I haven't seen any fishers or others of that family around here either. I worry most about teenage boys....We have a Christmas tree farm behind the house, and occasionally I hear gunshots coming from that direction. If my cats routinely wandered around back there I would be more worried than I am. They seldom leave our property any more...... > Well, All of the cats I have right now came to me from the outside world > as adults, and were used to being outside cats. If I had raised them from [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > probably because they don't compete for the same food, and I haven't seen > any wild coyotes here and I have been here for 13 years now. As long as you and the cats are happy with the arrangement.......... :-) Right now I'm feeding 2 cats that I can't allow in even if they wanted to come in. I have to protect my indoor girls from disease. I'm concerned what will happen with them when we move this summer. I'm going to speak to my neighbor about making sure they're fed. She has a feral cat she's been feeding for years now. I hope she willing to feed 2 more. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Well, All of the cats I have right now came to me from the outside world >> as adults, and were used to being outside cats. If I had raised them from [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > to my neighbor about making sure they're fed. She has a feral cat she's > been feeding for years now. I hope she willing to feed 2 more. -- It never hurts to trap them and let the vet neuter them and give them their shots....This will protect your cats from catching any diseases from them, as well as keeping the stray population down in your neighborhood.....It will also make it a lot easier to tame them...... >> Right now I'm feeding 2 cats that I can't allow in even if they wanted to >> come in. I have to protect my indoor girls from disease. I'm concerned [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- It never hurts to trap them and let the vet neuter them and give them > their shots.... Bill... this is out of the question. The two cats I did last year ran us almost $300 *each.* Most of these dumps or strays have some kind of health issue. These strays all have fleas. They all have ear mites and intestinal worms. That's a lot of money for us. Now that we're both retired, we simply can't afford it any more. We would be looking at a bill of at least $400 to $500. That's office visit, shots, blood tests, neutering etc. I myself have had several health problems being looked into and Medicare doesn't cover everything. At the moment I have several bills here I have to pay before the 1st. That and two more Dr's appointments next month. This will protect your cats from catching any diseases from > them, as well as keeping the stray population down in your > neighborhood.....It will also make it a lot easier to tame them...... They're both males so no kittens will be born under the outbuilding. We wont be here long enough to tame them. We're moving some time this spring or summer. Signature"No other disease or condition of companion animals takes as many lives as euthanasia. In fact, no other disease comes close." -- Janet M. Scarlett, DVM, Ph.D, Cornell University -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =^..^= ~~~ > Where I live, near the end of a dead >> end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to > fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it. :( Well, if she does make it, she will be getting what she wanted most out of life, so it would not be a total loss. For her anyway. . My >> younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to >> fill the bird feeders. I fear one of these days she'll make it. :( > Well, if she does make it, she will be getting what she wanted most out of > life, so it would not be a total loss. For her anyway. The loss to us would be unbearable.... especially if we never found out what happened to her out there. She's only 4 1/2 months old. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > . My >>> younger one has been trying to sneak out the front door when I go out to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The loss to us would be unbearable.... especially if we never found out > what happened to her out there. She's only 4 1/2 months old. Yes.....I know what you mean. - I love all my cats and would hate to lose any of them. But I also know that none of them are going to live forever, so I will eventually lose all of them. The important thing to me is that they enjoy whatever life they have left. I can only provide them with the opportunity to live a good life.....Beyond that, they will have to make the right choices to survive as well as they can. I refuse to trap them and keep then in some "padded cell" environment just for their own "safety". This would really be for me, and not for them. They were all born free, as it were. They came to me, and I offered them the opportunity to live well, but I refuse to force anything on them. Even B-K, doesn't have to live with me......If I sensed that he was unhappy, I would have brought him back to that parking lot and let him go. After all, he may have belonged to one of the neighbors of the restaurant. I watched him carefully when I first brought him home, to see if there were any signs that he was homesick...... >> The loss to us would be unbearable.... especially if we never found out >> what happened to her out there. She's only 4 1/2 months old. > Yes.....I know what you mean. - I love all my cats and would hate to lose > any of them. But I also know that none of them are going to live forever, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and keep then in some "padded cell" environment just for their own > "safety". Fortunately we live in a large house right now and they have free run of the entire place. They have loads of toys and many windows to look out. They have cat furniture to scramble over and a sunroom full of tropical plants they play Queen-of-the-jungle in. The older kitty has no interest in going outside at all. This > would really be for me, and not for them. They were all born free, as it > were. They came to me, and I offered them the opportunity to live well, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > first brought him home, to see if there were any signs that he was > homesick...... We know Zephyr was "depressed" when we got her but there was no taking her back to that kill-shelter. It took her a few weeks to adapt but she's a happy cat now - if you go by her actions and behavior. Her and the younger one are now like two peas in a pod. I know where you're coming from though. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Where I live, near the end of a dead >>> end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Well, if she does make it, she will be getting what she wanted most out of > life, so it would not be a total loss. For her anyway. Well, I live on the edge of town, and there is a huge Christmas tree farm behind me. My back yard is totally unkempt up and there is a small stream (a drainage ditch, really) behind me. You would think my cats would really enjoy hunting mice and whatever in such an environment. But the truth of the matter is that they spend 99 percent of their time in the house. Even in the Summertime, they just sleep on the deck overlooking the back yard, and seldom go down the stairs to go potty.....Most of the time, they would prefer to use the cat box we keep in one of the bathrooms, incase one of them is too sick or too old to bother going down the stairs.....They are just too lazy to enjoy the great outdoors that I have provided for them! Now a couple of them like the neighbors, and they will wait at the mailboxes and greet the neighbors coming to get their mail once in a while. One of them likes to hunt for moles in my next door neighbors front yard, which my neighbor really likes because the moles wreck his beautiful lawn, so he likes my cat to do this, and gives him goodies for mole bodies.....:^) In any case they have all lived here for 6 years or more, and they seem to get along very well, so I can't worry about them too much. After all, if it hadn't been for me, most all of them would be dead by now, since I took them in when nobody else wanted them. >>> Where I live, near the end of a dead >>>> end street, the chances of any of them getting run down is miniscule. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > much. After all, if it hadn't been for me, most all of them would be dead > by now, since I took them in when nobody else wanted them. I seldom make a distinction in my mind between cats and the great cats in Africa. That is why I consider cats the top of the food chain. And given the luxury of plenty of food and water, cats, domestic and greats, have a predisposition to becoming lazy when they get past their playing age. > I seldom make a distinction in my mind between cats and the great cats in > Africa. That is why I consider cats the top of the food chain. > > And given the luxury of plenty of food and water, cats, domestic and > greats, have a predisposition to becoming lazy when they get past their > playing age. Yes. I saw a nice piece on animal planet a few months ago about Indian tigers.....I was amazed at how closely their life style follows my cats. The only real difference is their size, and the prey they choose because of their size....In all other respects they are identical. > I seldom make a distinction in my mind between cats and the great cats in > Africa. That is why I consider cats the top of the food chain. They're not at the top of the food chain in many rural areas. Here the coyotes, bobcats, fox and large hawks all feed on domestic house cats. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> I seldom make a distinction in my mind between cats and the great cats in >> Africa. That is why I consider cats the top of the food chain. > > They're not at the top of the food chain in many rural areas. Here the > coyotes, bobcats, fox and large hawks all feed on domestic house cats. **Sure, Kelly, cats are that way if you distinguish them from the great cats. But I don't. When my cat walks, I see a wild lion hunting in the grasslands. Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:02:01 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: [another rant] You really ought to try to purge yourself of black-and-whitethinking. It seems every time someone makes a statement that contains shades of gray, you react to it as though it the statement were all white or all black. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:02:01 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > gray, you react to it as though it the statement were all white or > all black. Perhaps that's because I'm thoroughly sick and tired of liberals telling me how to live. I could care less how other people live, and in any case I don't know their history or circumstances. All I expect is that they give me the same courtesy.......Is that asking too much? Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:07:13 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > > Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:02:01 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > don't know their history or circumstances. All I expect is that they give me > the same courtesy.......Is that asking too much? Hon, I think you need mercy not justice. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> < snipped for being posted by a grouch> What my political views are none of your concern nor have they every been expressed here. You use your narrow minded backward views to excuse your way of thinking and lash out. The only thing I know about you.is that you can be a total idiot; when it comes to cats and other animals. Some of your advice has been dangerous, counter productive and possible considered destructive. That is the only reason you have not ended up in the kill file's I can't let you spread your bad advice around. If you can't figure out what I am talking about try Google and look up your nonsense. > "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If you can't figure out what I am talking about try Google and look up > your nonsense. Do you really think I should do some research in order to find out why you, "don't like my advice"? Give me a break! If there is some specific thing you would like to discuss, well, I am certainly ready and willing to discuss it with you. I have good reasons why I believe what I believe, and I am not unwilling to give them to you, or listen to your beliefs. But it is impossible for me to respond to generalities such as, "some of your advice has been dangerous" Please be more specific. >> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > is impossible for me to respond to generalities such as, "some of your > advice has been dangerous" Please be more specific. Too much would be wasted >>> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Too much would be wasted Perhaps a little logic. Lets suppose you were trapped on a deserted island in the Pacific. While you were waiting to be rescued, you noticed that there was a wild cat on the island. so, you feed the cat, and make a pet out of him. Now, would you build a house and trap the cat inside your house? - I think not. The cat survived without being trapped inside a house for a long time before you got there, so there is no reason for you to trap him inside one now. Well, If you wouldn't bother to trap the cat inside a house, then you have to admit that there is at least ONE circumstance where it is not advisable to keep a pet locked up inside a house. Now, lets extrapolate this logic to finding some other circumstance where one might keep outside cats. Like on a farm where you have acres and acres of land, and you live in the middle somewhere. Your cats are old and lazy and have no hope of ever traveling to the nearest road which is over a mile away. (My cousin had such a place, by the way....(She kept three cats on a grape farm where they had the job of keeping the birds away from the grapes.) So, now we have two possible places where it is OK to keep outside cats. Well, Somewhere between these two places and the middle of New York City we could draw a line and say, "It's OK to keep outside cats on this side of the line, but not OK to keep them on that side of the line." If you are with me to this point, then we are very close to being in agreement. Since you don't know where I live, and I don't know where you live, it is entirely possible that you should definitely keep your cats inside only, and I should keep mine outside, or at least under circumstance where they can go outside whenever they want to do so. Therefore let us make an agreement. I won't tell you what you should do with your cats, and you don't tell me what I should do with mine......Is that OK? >>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > with your cats, and you don't tell me what I should do with mine......Is > that OK? Sorry I don't play the imagination game. I play the fact game but I am not going to turn this into a inside out side debate. You want that go to alt.trolls and have at it. Funny thing is Bill. I have yet to tell you to keep your cats inside. You are the one screaming that us "liberals" all have an agenda that is basically out to get you. You are including all of us in there. As for I just said in basic terms you have given bad and dangerous advice before. The only time I have truly confronted that you should not do anything is when you offered the ridiculous and dangerous advice of force introduction of animals to one another. When they hiss at each you yell at them etc Remember or are us "liberals" side tracking for another agenda >>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > at them etc Remember or are us "liberals" side tracking for another > agenda It is rather difficult for me to interpret just what you are trying to say, but I am only trying to tell people what I have done when there was little choice in the matter. If you have two animals that are having trouble getting along, then you have to decide whether to force the issue, or give one of them to someone else. If you decide to force the issue (for whatever reason) then I have had good luck in the past by yelling at them and throwing something soft at them when they hiss at one another, so they will at least know that it displeases me when they aren't getting along. That's the first step. I have seen cases in the past where people have had cats that divvied up their house into two sections, and one cat stayed in one part, (their territory) while the other cat stayed in its part. I would find this unacceptable, myself, so I let it be known to my cats that they have to share the territory equally, and get along with one another. Nobody on this forum is in any way obligated to take any advice from anyone here, including me. I tell it like it is according to my own experience, and I am sorry if you disagree with what I have to say, but you have the same platform to say whatever it is that you want to say alongside me. That's the best I can do. >>>>>> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > you have the same platform to say whatever it is that you want to say > alongside me. That's the best I can do. You just don't get it not even worth trying to make it sink in >> It is rather difficult for me to interpret just what you are trying to >> say, but I am only trying to tell people what I have done when there was [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You just don't get it not even worth trying to make it sink in Let me guess......You were president of your local college's debating society.....Right? >>> It is rather difficult for me to interpret just what you are trying to >>> say, but I am only trying to tell people what I have done when there was [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Let me guess......You were president of your local college's debating > society.....Right? Let me guess you are president of those damn liberals are out to get me right? >>>> It is rather difficult for me to interpret just what you are trying to >>>> say, but I am only trying to tell people what I have done when there [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Let me guess you are president of those damn liberals are out to get me > right? Matthew, I hope you are getting some cardio debating with this stump-stupid blowhard. Because that's about the only benefit anyone is going to get out of it. >>>>> It is rather difficult for me to interpret just what you are trying to >>>>> say, but I am only trying to tell people what I have done when there [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > stump-stupid blowhard. Because that's about the only benefit anyone is > going to get out of it. Just making sure people realize he is dangerous >> Matthew, I hope you are getting some cardio debating with this >> stump-stupid blowhard. Because that's about the only benefit anyone is >> going to get out of it. > Just making sure people realize he is dangerous As always, you are a good egg. Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:50:30 -0500 from Matthew <iamacatslaveand@proudtoserve.com>: [drivel] > You just don't get it not even worth trying to make it sink in I begin to think he's doing it on purpose. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... >>> "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Too much would be wasted :) Indeed. > It's amazing how much a bunch of idiots know about me and my cats and > where we live without ever being here, and meeting me or the cats and > seeing my living circumstances...... I went through the same thing on this NG last fall. I was called a wingnut and worse for having the audacity to disagreeing with an arrogant foul mouth immature know-it-all. She judged and juried me without knowing a damn thing about me or my circumstances. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "John Ross Mc Master" <pussycat@cathouse.meow> wrote in message > Cats are better off roaming in Midtown Mantattan than here. Then don't let them roam "there"......But don't tell me where I can let my cats roam......You don't know anything about, "here"..... > It is even worse for cats to roam in rural areas. Depending on where > you are, snakes, raccoons, lizards, coyotes, bobcats/lynx, wolves, the > list goes on and on. This is true. After losing several cats when I moved here I learned from a neighbor that the fox, bobcats and coyote pick them off. I foolishly thought it was cruel to keep cats indoors 24/7 and didn't know about predators in rural areas. My two new kitties are indoor-only. > Where I am we have everything except lizards. > > Cats are better off roaming in Midtown Mantattan than here. This is probably also true if you mean in the backyards and courtyards behind the homes and apt bldgs. Signature"No other disease or condition of companion animals takes as many lives as euthanasia. In fact, no other disease comes close." -- Janet M. Scarlett, DVM, Ph.D, Cornell University -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =^..^= ~~~ And don't try to > argue that allowing domesticated animals to roam exposed to anything that > happens by is fine. It is not fine. I never try to argue with the narrow minded........ > And don't try to >> argue that allowing domesticated animals to roam exposed to anything that >> happens by is fine. It is not fine. > > I never try to argue with the narrow minded........ That is so funny coming from you one of the most narrow minded backward thinking person on this group. >> And don't try to >>> argue that allowing domesticated animals to roam exposed to anything [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That is so funny coming from you one of the most narrow minded backward > thinking person on this group. It's very simple. I came home one day to find that my neighbor's house caught on fire during the working day, and all of his animals perished because they were trapped inside while he was at work. I was only 10 years old, but I still remember that day very well. I vowed then never to keep any animal trapped inside my house, and I never have. I don't have a fenced in yard, so I don't keep dogs. But I can keep cats, and I happen to have five of them. They all have access to the outside world through two cat doors. One leads to my back yard, and the other leads through the garage to the front. If you think this is unreasonable, then all I can say is that's fine. You can keep your cats trapped inside your house if you want to do so. I won't presume to tell you what to do. The only thing I would like to know is, WHY DO YOU INSIST ON TELLING MY THAT I SHOULD KEEP MY CATS LOCKED UP INSIDE MY HOUSE!!?? Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:26:31 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > I came home one day to find that my neighbor's house caught on fire > during the working day, and all of his animals perished because > they were trapped inside while he was at work. I was only 10 years > old, but I still remember that day very well. I vowed then never to > keep any animal trapped inside my house, and I never have. That's about on an intellectual par with "I won't wear a seat belt because if there was an accident I'd be trapped in the car instead of thrown clear." SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:26:31 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >> I came home one day to find that my neighbor's house caught on fire [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > because if there was an accident I'd be trapped in the car instead of > thrown clear." Think so? Well, I don't. Statistics show that there are very few cases where seat belts trap someone inside a car to their own detriment. But there are many cases where animals are trapped inside burning houses and perish because they don't have the simple ability to open the door and leave. My cats do have this ability. This is simple common sense. At 74, I have a lot of this common sense. It has enabled me to make the right decisions many times in the past, and it is still working well for me. If you and others on this forum would like to avail themselves of my common sense, then you are welcome to do so. Otherwise, you should kill file me and be done with it. Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > > [quoted text muted] > > That's about on an intellectual par with "I won't wear a seat belt [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seat belts trap someone inside a car to their own detriment. But there are > many cases where animals are trapped inside burning houses and perish Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual pressure of the conversation? The parallel is simple: you wear a seat belt because many more fatalities occur when not wearing one than when wearing one. And (in most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >> > [quoted text muted] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > most environments) you keep a cat indoors because many more > fatalities occur to outside cats than to inside cats. The parallel is even simpler than that. It's nobody's business but my own what happens to me in a crash, or what happens to my cats when they are enjoying life by being outside. So, why doesn't you and the rest of society just mind your own damn business? You have already made a law that forces me to wear that cheap ridiculous cloth strap that you call a, "Safety belt", and it will only be a matter of time before you make a law that forces me to keep my cats locked up in the house. You and your liberal friends are busy making laws that directly interfere with my freedoms. Some day, they will make a law that directly interferes with YOUR enjoyment of life, but by then, there won't be anything you can hope to do about it. I will be laughing when they usher you into your padded cell......... "Bill Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> <snipped> Hearing those voices yet. There out to get you Bill They are coming to get you Bill or better yet those gnomes stealing your underwear again Bill Rage against those damn underwear stealing gnomes Bill RAGE nom nom nom Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > > Sigh. Are you trolling, are you really unequal to the intellectual > > pressure of the conversation? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > about it. I will be laughing when they usher you into your padded > cell......... Well, that answers *that*. You're trolling. Bye! SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Well, that answers *that*. You're trolling. Bye! What a convenient way to, "win" an argument or discussion......Just say (when you are backed into a wall) "Your trolling". Did they teach you that in your collegiate debating club? >> Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (when you are backed into a wall) "Your trolling". Did they teach you that > in your collegiate debating club? RAGE BILL RAGE Tell those dang liberals gnomes that are stealing your underwear NO MORE TELL THEM NO MORE >>> Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Tell those dang liberals gnomes that are stealing your underwear NO MORE >TELL THEM NO MORE I remember that in elementary school we were told that Communists would make us use each other's underwear. > I remember that in elementary school we were told that Communists > would make us use each other's underwear. No! Really? Where was this? lol >>>> Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I remember that in elementary school we were told that Communists > would make us use each other's underwear. And they well might do just that.....If you haven't lived under Communism, you don't really know, do you? I have never lived under Communism myself, but I was married to a Polish lady who did live under it.....Worse than that, she lived under the rule of Josef Stalin. Believe me, both you and I are very lucky that we didn't have to endure that. >>>>> Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:37:43 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >that, she lived under the rule of Josef Stalin. Believe me, both you and I >are very lucky that we didn't have to endure that. I like the idea of Communism, everyone working for the good of the whole, but since people are basically selfish you have to force them to work for the good of the whole. That doesn't work out so well in practice. My parents were pretty much commies until the truth of Stalin came out. One of my co-workers is from Poland and says there was a lot of good under Communism but it just gets too corrupt. I also worked with a Czech guy who had nothing good to say about it. Of course, Capitalism has many problems as well. I think that masses of humans are just ungovernable. >> Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>> > [quoted text muted] [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >then, there won't be anything you can hope to do about it. I will be >laughing when they usher you into your padded cell......... Actually, conservatives are the ones that make the drug laws. Law and Order you know. >>> Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>> > [quoted text muted] [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Actually, conservatives are the ones that make the drug laws. Law and > Order you know. I am a libertarian. I don't care which party makes these stupid "padded cell" laws.....I am against them. They justify them on the basis that people won't get hurt and use the social services to get well again, but I didn't give them permission to give my money away to begin with, so that argument don't hold any water with me. First, they hold me up every April 15th and steal my money. Then they give it away to the poor. Then they make laws that restrict my freedoms and say, "The poor are using up our tax dollars too fast, so we need these laws to slow it down". The purpose of the law is to protect the individual from others, or to make us all equally liable for our excesses. But when they use the law to interfere with our freedoms when the exercise of those freedoms doesn't interfere with the freedoms of anyone else, then that is, or at least ought to be, unconstitutional.....The purpose of the constitution is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. This is one of the reasons why I keep outside cats. Sure, they could get hurt or even killed by the outside world, and they would be safer trapped inside my house. But I don't believe the purpose of life is to not get hurt or killed. We are all mortal, and will all, eventually, die. I believe the purpose of life is to enjoy it as much as we can while we are here. That is how I live, and I want to give my cats the same opportunity to enjoy life as I have. I would be unhappy were I trapped inside my house, and so are they. They all came to me from the outside world, so I don't believe I have the right to keep them prisoners in my house or anywhere else. If they get themselves killed, well, that's the chance we all take by living. If staying alive as long as possible is your shtick, then build yourself a padded cell and go and live in it. I choose to enjoy life as much as possible, and I will give my cats that same opportunity. I eat a steak once in a while even though I know it increases my cholesterol and will probably shorten my life. My B-K likes to hunt birds and mice and other small animals.....One of these days, he will be hunting and a big dog or raccoon or coyote will get him. I will be very sad, but I still wouldn't trap him inside my house. If I hadn't come along, he would still be foraging for food in that Burger King parking lot, and probably would be dead by now, since that was 5 years ago. So, he has already outlived the time God gave him. Any time he has left is courtesy of old Bill Graham. (me...:^) >>>> Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>>> > [quoted text muted] [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >has already outlived the time God gave him. Any time he has left is courtesy >of old Bill Graham. (me...:^) I have a relative who has mental problems. He's pretty smart but is on anti-psychotic meds, and has been since he was a teenager and tried to gouge his eyes out. He lives on Social Security checks.. He always wanted to work but it must be pretty tough when you think everyone is always staring at you and you can't figure out how to put a size 16 shirt in the pile of size 16 shirts. What should we do with him if we don't help him out? Take him out and shoot him? Let him die on the street? Should I have to pay for him? Since his mother died recently I get to deal with a lot of the forms that she dealt with, and believe me that she had her own issues mentally-wise. Frankly I can't figure out half the forms that he is supposed to deal with. I want to slash our defense (I mean, offense) budget. Our troops go abroad for one reason and one reason only, and that is to protect the investments of rich people. I think if we stop trying to run the world for the benefit of corporations we might find that people around the world don't hate us as much. Our founding fathers had a very healty fear of corporate power and limited what corporations can do; over time those limits have eroded. I think it's time to reign them back in and only the government has the power to do that. So, consider that when you rant about the government. Otherwise get get facism, which is what I think the Tea Party is leading to. Brown shirts in training. As for outside cats, I'm torn on the issue. I fenced in my little yard so that my cats can go out, and they often do. But one of the neighborhood cats (Shay) just ended up getting taken to the vet by one of my neighbors because his head was ripped open by something. By the looks of the damage I have to think it was a racoon. We don't exactly have much wildlife in NYC but we do have them, and possums. Could have been another cat I guess but I don't know if one cat can do that kind of damage to another (big) cat. My neighborhood is pretty safe for outdoor cats I would think; outside of racoons I guess. But I'm not letting my cats run free. And, my newest boy Scooter, still has the right to be let out since I took him off the street. Maybe when the weather gets nicer he'll take me up on it, but lately he goes to the door, I open it to let him out, and he comes righ back inside. He's no dummy. >>>>> Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:59 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: >>>>>> > [quoted text muted] [quoted text clipped - 137 lines] > it, but lately he goes to the door, I open it to let him out, and he > comes righ back inside. He's no dummy. Basically, that's the way it is with my cats....They are all outside cats, but other than sitting on my porch in the Summertime, they all pretty much stay inside all the time, so it really doesn't make much difference. A couple of them won't even go outside to relieve themselves....They use the cat box my wife has in her bathroom. And, on of these is our feral cat that used to only live outside. They all have access to the outside world through two cat doors. Holy Cow! If I had cat doors I would have strays in here, possums coming in, raccoons in the house..... and who knows what else. =O But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my outbuilding. Signature"No other disease or condition of companion animals takes as many lives as euthanasia. In fact, no other disease comes close." -- Janet M. Scarlett, DVM, Ph.D, Cornell University -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =^..^= ~~~ > They all have access to the outside world through two cat doors. > > Holy Cow! If I had cat doors I would have strays in here, possums coming > in, raccoons in the house..... and who knows what else. =O Not with alert tomcats patroling! > But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone > dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my outbuilding. >> Holy Cow! If I had cat doors I would have strays in here, possums coming >> in, raccoons in the house..... and who knows what else. =O > > Not with alert tomcats patroling! But then the Toms would be sneaking in the house!!! We have two serious diseases in my area; FeLV and FIV. I have to keep my cats away from strays or dump-offs. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > They all have access to the outside world through two cat doors. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone > dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my outbuilding. Yes.....I have had that trouble with my cat doors too. There was a female raccoon who couldn't fit through the cat door herself, but she would put her kittens through it so they could eat the cat food. This did not seem to bother my cats, but they will hiss at the adult raccoons that come up on the back porch to eat the dog food we keep out there. We feed the raccoons cheap dog food. They don't really like it, but when they are very hungry, they will eat it rather than starve to death. We could end up feeding hundreds of them if we put out better quality food, but we stick with the 37-1/2 pound bags of, "Maintain" for $12 a bag, and that works just fine....They eat it begrudgingly when they are really hungry...... >> But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone >> dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my >> outbuilding. > Yes.....I have had that trouble with my cat doors too. There was a female > raccoon who couldn't fit through the cat door herself, but she would put [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with the 37-1/2 pound bags of, "Maintain" for $12 a bag, and that works > just fine....They eat it begrudgingly when they are really hungry...... For some reason I haven't seen coons around here in the past few years. I'm not sure why. But we still have skunks and possums. Both will enter homes. The fox and coyotes don't come real close to the houses. We have poisonous snakes here. I can't wait until we move this summer. Do you have the cats vaccinated for rabies? Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> But then I'm out in the boonies. I'm now feeding 2 more tomcats someone >>> dumped off here on the road. They seem to be living under my [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Do you have the cats vaccinated for rabies? Oh yes....They all have their shots for everything.....Our vet bill is horrendous....the roving vet comes by the house every couple of months, and it always costs me a couple of hundred dollars or more....I have to count our cats as a very expensive hobby....But it is worth it, because we love them all dearly and they give us a lot of pleasure. The neighbors probably think we are crazy.....I see them tinkering with their sports cars and other junk, like boats and stuff.....But I wouldn't have it any other way. My only other hobby is playing my trumpet in the local bands. And that costs me nothing at all. >> Do you have the cats vaccinated for rabies? > Oh yes....They all have their shots for everything.....Our vet bill is > horrendous....the roving vet comes by the house every couple of months, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other way. My only other hobby is playing my trumpet in the local bands. > And that costs me nothing at all. Gotcha. :) Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> How many of your cats have been hit by cars? > I've never had a cat that died via automobile, but I had one that had a > limp and a lump when we got her.....She came with the house. I don't know [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the case, but I don't. You don't know where I live, and so you can't give > me any advice on this issue.....'nough said..... She'll just bad mouth you from now on calling you a wingnut etc. It's better not to reply to her at all. Signature"They can not ask for kindness, or for mercy plead. Yet cruel is our blindness, which does not see their need. World-over, town or city, God trusts us with this task; To give our love and pity to those who can not ask." -- Unknown -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:49:02 -0500 from T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>: > Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd throw > a busy ball and he'd run, pick it up with his mouth and bring it back to > me so I could throw it again. So he's got you trained. :-) Destructo the Visigoth has similarly trained me to play fetch with Squeaky Mouse. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:49:02 -0500 from T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>: >> Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd throw [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Destructo the Visigoth has similarly trained me to play fetch with > Squeaky Mouse. I'll take that as 1-3. a.s. > Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:49:02 -0500 from T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>: > > Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd throw [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Destructo the Visigoth has similarly trained me to play fetch with > Squeaky Mouse. He had me trained yes, but I'd had him since he was a 12 week old kitten. He's been dead for a few years now. I wish I could have another cat like him. >> Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:49:02 -0500 from T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>: >> > Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > He's been dead for a few years now. I wish I could have another cat like > him. Every cat has some kind of specialty like that, you just have to get to know your cat to find out just what it is. > >> Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:49:02 -0500 from T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net>: > >> > Indeed, some cats are pretty smart. My first cat played fetch. I'd [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Every cat has some kind of specialty like that, you just have > to get to know your cat to find out just what it is. Well, in Angie's (Current resident felid) case it's being curled up in my lap. She's a lap fungus. Mon, 8 Feb 2010 23:01:51 -0800 from Bill Graham <weg9@comcast.net>: > Well, I don't know whether it's love or not, but if you could see the way my > cats act when my wife goes down to California for a week or so to visit her > grandkids, you would know that there is something they feel for her. We're both speculating here, but I'll bet you they would feel that way about any significant change. Cats really, really like predictability and hate change. After all, they spend a large part of their day checking their territory to make sure nothing has changed. When they seem to be missing a "loved one", I believe they're simply disoriented by the change. I can't prove that, but it seems consistent with what we do know. After all, it's well known that their "affectionate" behaviors are all either for their own comfort or ways of manipulating us, at which they're astonishingly good. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > ...it's well known that their "affectionate" behaviors are all > either for their own comfort or ways of manipulating us, Sounds like projecting your own personality, Stan. Signature> at which they're astonishingly good. > Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!feeder.erje.net!news2.arglkargh.de!nuzba.szn.dk!pnx.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail > From: Stan Brown <the_stan_brown fastmail.fm> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Cancel-Lock: sha1:Ov/Ioza1xvOMah3ZTejftR1xx8g= > User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.80.1 Shadapa, gringo. >> ...it's well known that their "affectionate" behaviors are all >> either for their own comfort or ways of manipulating us, > > Sounds like projecting your own personality, Stan. > From: John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid> References: > <iYWdndFq-YfGavDWnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@posted.internetamerica> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 92627945.news.astraweb.com X-Trace: > DXC=ofO:f?^?oeADIol_\Lk[aFL?0kYOcDh@Je\cbX3\`@YMO@ng;`;a^YBLLVZg:>m5;CC2jMlQeZceKK@_VRo`5K8J > Who knows what a purr is really all about? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If your cat is purring, and you fail to pet her, > does it hurt her feelings? I doubt it. My cats purr when contented. When they want something, they "meow" and pester me. > > Who knows what a purr is really all about? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I doubt it. My cats purr when contented. When they want something, they > "meow" and pester me. Same thing here. Angie is a very vocal cat. When she wants something (For example, she's a milk hound!) she meows very loudly, it's a very plaintive cry. But when she's curled up on my lap or belly, the purring commences. >> > Who knows what a purr is really all about? >> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > But when she's curled up on my lap or belly, the purring commences. Cats purr when giving birth. [This followup was posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav and a copy was sent to the cited author.] > >> > Who knows what a purr is really all about? > >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Cats purr when giving birth. I've never had an un-neutered cat so I wouldn't know. > [This followup was posted to rec.pets.cats.health+behav and a copy was > sent to the cited author.] [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I've never had an un-neutered cat so I wouldn't know. Then I am glad to enlighten you. I have adopted two pregnant strays whom I kept and spayed after finding their kittens (also neutered) homes. Any vet will tell you that purring is a sign of emotion. The emotion might be negative or positive. "cybercat" <cyberpurrs yahoo.com> wrote: > "T" <kd1s.nospam cox.nospam.net> wrote in message > news:MPG.25d7f68ab9d851ec989c6c news.eternal-september.org... [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > neutered) homes. Any vet will tell you that purring is a sign of > emotion. The emotion might be negative or positive. JudgeMental (a.k.a. cybercat/whatever) is a regular troll who is desperate for attention and regularly spews bullshit here in this group. Yes, of course cats purr when they are contented. All you have to do is notice that when they are riled, they stop purring. Any sensitive person can tell that (that excludes the creep JudgeMental). A Skyway for exercising cats... http://www.flickr.com/photos/27532210@N04/ Signature> Path: news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.astraweb.com!border1.a.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news.netcologne.de!ramfeed1.netcologne.de!newsfeed.freenet.ag!feeder.erje.net!feeder.eternal-september.org!eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail > From: "cybercat" <cyberpurrs yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> "T" <kd1s.nospam cox.nospam.net> wrote in message >> news:MPG.25d7f68ab9d851ec989c6c news.eternal-september.org... [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> X-Priority: 3 >> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Mark, do we really need to do this again? Boundaries, man. Boundaries. 07 Feb 2010 06:44:54 GMT from John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid>: > Yes, of course cats purr when they are contented. All you > have to do is notice that when they are riled, they stop purring. Thanks for playing, but no. See, for example, http://www.animalvoice.com/catpur.htm where you can read "they do purr when they are content. However they also purr when frightened, severly injured, giving birth and even while dying. Because of this, the contentment hypothesis clearly cannot be the only reason cats purr." SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > 07 Feb 2010 06:44:54 GMT from John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid>: >> Yes, of course cats purr when they are contented. All you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Because of this, the contentment hypothesis clearly cannot be the > only reason cats purr." Yes, I thought I remembered that about purring during death. >> 07 Feb 2010 06:44:54 GMT from John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid>: >>> Yes, of course cats purr when they are contented. All you [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Yes, I thought I remembered that about purring during death. I had a 12-YO orange tabby named Murphy. One day I noticed he never left his favorite spot on the windowsill. I took him to the vet and was told he was in complete organ failure and would die within hours, so I had him euthanized. I can't tell you the heartbreak of him purring in my arms when the shot was administered. Stan Brown <the_stan_brown fastmail.fm> wrote: > 07 Feb 2010 06:44:54 GMT from John Doe <jdoe > usenetlove.invalid>: >> Yes, of course cats purr when they are contented. All you have >> to do is notice that when they are riled, they stop purring. > > Thanks for playing, but no. Bullshit. > See, for example http://www.thanks-for-helping-us-get-hits.com > where you can read I am a keen observer and have many years of personal experience with cats, no need to read your BS. > they do purr when they are content. However they also purr when > frightened I would not know, pets are never frightened around me. > severly injured Says who? How did they find out? A veterinarian friend told me that an injured kitten was purring while in her arms. Maybe it was contented, I would have been. > giving birth Says who? How did they find out? > and even while dying. That ridiculous assertion sounds like another attention-getting troll. My cats love life and would never sit there purring while being killed. It might be understandable if they are dying while not in pain and being held in someone's arms. And again, who says so and how did they find out? > Because of this, the contentment hypothesis clearly cannot be > the only reason cats purr. You mean like when you are sticking something into your cats hole, Stan? Could be... I know from experience that cats purr when they are contented. Anything is possible, but I have never observed a cat purring for other reasons. Signature> Path: news.astraweb.com!border1.newsrouter.astraweb.com!news- out.octanews.net!indigo.octanews.net!news.glorb.com!feeder.erje.net! news-1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net! not-for-mail > From: Stan Brown <the_stan_brown fastmail.fm> > Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Message-ID: <MPG.25d8ab4321bdc5bb98bf4e news.individual.net> > References: <iYWdndFq-YfGavDWnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d posted.internetamerica> <R7ydnVVoEo2Wn_PWnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d giganews.com> <MPG.25d7cdc37239ac16989c68 news.eternal-september.org> <hkla82$4gq$1 news.eternal-september.org> <MPG.25d7f68ab9d851ec989c6c news.eternal-september.org> <hklctc$nd8$1 news.eternal-september.org> <00ea3768$0$23826$c3e8da3 news.astraweb.com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Trace: individual.net l1XcN7/9j88aXMIAjc/aZAcLQA00i5b2PYMluFTA7lp0fIyjNu > Cancel-Lock: sha1:G7LJgQbaZZ9l/R5bvUvtMcu+WGY= > User-Agent: MicroPlanet-Gravity/2.80.1 > Who knows what a purr is really all about? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If your cat is purring, and you fail to pet her, > does it hurt her feelings? Purring is the cat version of "Whistle a Happy Tune" Whenever I feel afraid I hold my head erect And whistle a happy tune So no one will suspect I'm afraid. While shivering in my shoes I strike a careless pose And whistle a happy tune And no one ever knows I'm afraid. The result of this deception Is very strange to tell For when I fool the people I fear I fool myself as well! I whistle a happy tune And ev'ry single time The happiness in the tune Convinces me that I'm not afraid. Make believe you're brave And the trick will take you far. You may be as brave As you make believe you are You may be as brave As you make believe you are |
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