 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue CatKB.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2004Tough love for baaad kittie
Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house where he/she isn't supposed to be? In light of the fact that feline mommies typically carry their kittens about by the skin at the rear of their necks, here's an effective but harmless way to administer negative reinforcement to a misbehaving cat: Simply grab a handful of the loose skin at about the mid-point of your cat's back, and lift the cat away from where he or she isn't supposed to be. This stern measure should be accompanied by some verbal exclamation that you must always use very consistently. I use the harsh single-syllable word "BAAAD!!". Any normal cat won't like this treatment and may reply with a "Yee-ehhh! Ehhhh!" But don't worry. Your tough love does no physical harm to the cat, nor does it harm your relationship with your cat either, because he/she will get the message quickly, so that soon nothing more will be necessary to drive kittie away from the forbidden place other than a repeat of your verbal exclamation word (without grabbing). This technique works quite well and in no way diminishes the unconditional love returned by kittie to you. If you find that grabbing-lifting of the loose skin at the central area of the back is not stern enough to correct the bad behavior of an abnormally obstinate kittie, then that only means that he/she may have an above average pain threshold (similar variation among humans). In that case you must get tougher; try adding a *very small* measure of shaking or tossing, or grabbing-lifting by some other more sensitive body part (ears, tail, etc.). > Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house where > he/she isn't supposed to be? > > In light of the fact that feline mommies typically carry their kittens about > by the skin at the rear of their necks, Key words: feline and mommie. You aren't a feline. You will use more force than she will. Besides, she doesn't carry it by it's skin - she carries it by the NECK. Her whole mouth wraps around the kitten's neck and the kitten goes limp by nature so it doesn't get injured. She does not use this as punishment. It is transport. No mommie will do this to a cat over the age of 8 weeks. It just isn't done. You can injure the kitten/cat by picking it up in this manner without supporting the body. There's nothing wrong with a gentle scruffing, but no one should EVER pick up a cat by the loose skin on its neck/back. You can tug it and support the body so that it almost seems like you're picking it up that way, but the cat's weight better by supported by you, not its skin. Picking a cat up by the scruff is as misguided and outdated as the old "alpha rollover" that got dog trainers all bitten up. Only dogs do alpha rollovers to dogs. People have no place doing it. They have no place carrying cats by the neck, either.  Signature-- ~kaeli~ If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against mine. Regardless though, I never recommended supporting a cat by the neck portion of its spine. > > Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house where > > he/she isn't supposed to be? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace circa Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:23:02 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, gertrude (nobody@nowhere.net) said, > Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a > kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against > mine. Kaeli is correct. I would recommend that you call a veterinarian if you choose not to believe her because it is ?[her] word against [yours]?. > Regardless though, I never recommended supporting a cat by the neck portion > of its spine. You should never pick up a cat by its scruff *or* its neck. If you?d like, I can provide the dozen or so links that it took me all of ten seconds to find that confirm this. When you scruff a cat (which is something that you should virtually *never* need to do), you should put light *downward* pressure on the cat, not pull *up*. Period. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a > kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against > mine. > > Regardless though, I never recommended supporting a cat by the neck portion > of its spine. Gertrude--you are wrong, and you sound like an idiot, as well. Nobody should ever pick a cat up by its skin. >Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a >kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against >mine. it is how cats carry their kittens, by the skin on the back of their necks. the kitten goes limp, his hind paws and tail curl up to the stomach and front paws hang. i don't think people are as good at holding a kitten like that as cats are. i've seen my cat carry her kittens like this and i have picked them up like that too, but whey they are a bit older and larger, it's not a good idea to pick them up like that. >Regardless though, I never recommended supporting a cat by the neck portion >of its spine. it's not the neck, it's a stretchy portion of the skin at the neck, right below the head. -L >> > Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house where >> > he/she isn't supposed to be? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart >> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a > kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against > mine. Here's one confirmation; kaeli was correct. If you're still in doubt, ask your vet about it. Cathy > > > Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house where > > > he/she isn't supposed to be? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart > > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> Interesting. However, confirmation from others is needed about the way a >> kitten is carried by its mother, because right now it's your word against [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Cathy it's just not a good idea to pick up a large cat like that. kittens are fine. if you pick them up correctly, they quiet down and when you release them, they are just fine. Lena >> > > Ever have difficulty keeping kittie away from places in the house >where [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart >> > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Gertrude wrote: >In that case you must get tougher; try >adding a *very small* measure of shaking >or tossing, or grabbing-lifting by some >other more sensitive body part (ears, tail, >etc.). I'm aghast that you think "shaking or tossing, or grabbing-lifting by some other more sensitive body part (ears, tail, etc.)" is an appropriate way to treat a cat and is good advice. I can only assume that you have a sadistic side that controls your thoughts and actions. The methods you describe are unnecessary and abusive. Negative reinforcement is a lousy concept that rarely works, and when it does the response is based on fear and/or pain rather than a desire to exhibit good behavior. Positive reinforcement and distraction techniques are much more effective. Anyone that would recommend methods that involve inflicting physical pain, hostility and fear, especially on a cat that is about 1/15th the size of a human or smaller, is nothing short of an animal abuser. You included. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Gertrude wrote: > >In that case you must get tougher; try [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > is about 1/15th the size of a human or smaller, is nothing short of an > animal abuser. You included. Understand that if you have a farm like mine in Kentucky with 22 cats then you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in a NYC apartment. It's just not the same. In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "gertrude" <nobody@nowhere.net> artfully composed this message within <news:85Pyc.11725$uX2.2709@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> on 12 Jun 2004: > Understand that if you have a farm like mine in Kentucky with 22 > cats then you handle them differently than one does if only a > single cat is kept in a NYC apartment. It's just not the same. Heh. You're barking up the wrong tree there. SignatureCheryl > Understand that if you have a farm like mine in Kentucky with 22 cats then > you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in a > NYC apartment. It's just not the same. What??! Because they are cats who live on rural land, Vs. a single house cat in an urban (or I assume suburban) area, that gives one the right to ill-treat them? A cat is a cat is a cat. Cathy I have the feeling that gertrude thinks of cats not as pets/companions, but as objects to own, and that she can abuse them as she wills, just like any other animal (or human) abuser on this planet. Her 22 cats are probably NOT pets, but just barn cats, the kind kept to keep mice/rats out of the feed/hay that are kept in the barn. I doubt if any of them have ever gone to a vet, let alone spayed/neutered. I also bet that whenever the population of cats gets too abundant, gertrude just eliminates some of them by either drowning a couple litters of kittens, or catching and shooting a couple of adults out in the back woods, leaving the carcasses to either rot or get picked clean by scavengers. I know that these sorts of things are still done, and, sad to say, some distant relatives of mine are among those with this type of mentality. I hope no one on this group actually takes any of her advice. And on a side note, some earlier in this thread said that someone who uses fake email is probably a troll. I beg to differ - I use a fake email - but only to avoid my e-box getting jam-packed with SPAM. SignatureThe ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)? email me at nalee1964 (at) insightbb (dot) com http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep > > Understand that if you have a farm like mine in Kentucky with 22 cats then > > you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Cathy circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:16:35 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Magic Mood Jeep? (nobody@nowhere.net) said, > I have the feeling that gertrude thinks of cats not as pets/companions, but > as objects to own, and that she can abuse them as she wills, just like any > other animal (or human) abuser on this planet. "gertrude" has already admitted to trolling. See the "Tooth brushing" thread. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:36:52 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, gertrude (nobody@nowhere.net) said, > > The methods you describe are unnecessary and abusive. Negative > > reinforcement is a lousy concept that rarely works, and when it does the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in a > NYC apartment. It's just not the same. <snort> You just swallowed your toes sticking your foot into your mouth that hard. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:36:52 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, gertrude (nobody@nowhere.net) said, > Understand that if you have a farm like mine in Kentucky with 22 cats then > you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in a > NYC apartment. It's just not the same. BTW, you might want to look at the link in Megan's signature- this one: http://www.picturetrail.com/zuzu22 Don't forget to count while you're perusing... Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:36:52 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > gertrude (nobody@nowhere.net) said, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't forget to count while you're perusing... I'd like to add that Megan has been a tremendous source of help to me in learning how to monitor and care for my diabetic cat (diagnosed in January). My vet didn't think home testing was necessary, and wanted me to just shoot him up with insulin twice a day. But I started testing him the day after he came home, and he stays in normal ranges on the new diet without insulin. He might have died if I'd just kept injecting him without testing. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > > Gertrude wrote: > > >In that case you must get tougher; try [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > you handle them differently than one does if only a single cat is kept in a > NYC apartment. It's just not the same. You apparently don't know much about Megan. She has done cat rescue for many years. She is licensed to care for up to 25 cats (currently has 24) and is regularly inspected without advance notification. Most of the cats she has at the present were feral or abused cats. This certainly does not put her in the category of "a single cat...kept in a NYC apartment." She is truly an expert in the care of cats and can offer excellent advice. MaryL > The methods you describe are unnecessary and abusive. Negative > reinforcement is a lousy concept that rarely works, and when it does the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is about 1/15th the size of a human or smaller, is nothing short of an > animal abuser. You included. (Note: I agree that physically harming an animal is a Bad Thing) Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. When my cat misbehaves, I remove a stimulus - my company - to make her increase her good behavior. This is commonly called a Time Out. Many, many PP trainers use NR to train. When you turn your back on a jumping dog to make him want to sit to get his pets, that's NR. (or NP (negative punishment) if you look at it as decreasing the jumping behavior) Negative punishment is the removal of a stimulus to decrease behavior. Positive punishment is the addition of a stimulus to decrease behavior. In itself, it is not abusive. The stimulus can be a simple 'NO' or a squirt from a water bottle or a clap of the hands. It's anything aversive. It is when people assume that punishment must be physical that we have problems like our abusive OP here. Fear inhibits learning. Negative: remove Positive: add Reinforcement: increase Punishment: decrease See: http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/index.htm#Operant Signature-- ~kaeli~ Suicide is the most sincere form of self-criticism. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: <snip> Cats are not dogs and using dog training techniques, especially negative ones, are unnecessary. And to think that calling or promoting a punishment as "positive" is acceptable is just silly. As I stated before, there are positive ways (and in my world that means "good", not "bad" ) to stop cats from exhibiting what we deem to be "bad" behaviors and doing something negative to a cat is unnecessary. I don't use a squirt bottle, hitting, or anything of that nature and have a houseful of cats that don't cause problems. I also regularly help people with cats with behavior issues and, following my recommendations, these people are successful as well without having to use anything negative. You can choose to do things like squirt your cats, but as far as I'm concerned, when you choose that and other negative actions toward an animal when there are alternatives that don't require that kind of hostile action it makes it pretty clear you enjoy causing your cats unnecessary discomfort, instilling fear or worse. That's very sad, but not unexpected from someone that thinks it was just fine to fill their cats lungs with secondhand smoke and put their health at risk, and let them play with cigarette butts even though tobacco is toxic to cats. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Kaeli wrote: > <snip> > > Cats are not dogs and using dog training techniques, especially negative > ones, are unnecessary. And to think that calling or promoting a > punishment as "positive" is acceptable is just silly. You don't get it. Kaeli is correct. Removing a positive thing is not the same thing as punishment. Mary wrote; >You don't get it. Kaeli is correct. >Removing a positive thing is not the same >thing as punishment. I never said it was. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >From: zuzu22@webtv.net > >Cats are not dogs and using dog training techniques, especially negative >ones, are unnecessary. And to think that calling or promoting a >punishment as "positive" is acceptable is just silly. You're not understanding the very legitimate term "positive punishment". It has nothing to do with pretending harshness is positive. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience >You're not understanding the very >legitimate term "positive punishment". It >has nothing to do with pretending >harshness is positive. But is sounds like it does. That's my point. AFAIC it's an oxymoron. When dealing with your average cat owner, the first rule of giving advice is to keep things *simple.* Using terms that mean something completely the opposite of how they sound is confusing and unnecessary, and in some instances can be misconstrued where there could be unnecessary stress or worse put on the cat. If someone hears "positive punishment" but doesn't learn what it might technically mean, they could assume that punishment is a good thing and the cat suffers unnecessarily as a result. When I use the term "positive reinforcement," it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that means reinforcing a behavior using "good" things. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Kaeli wrote: > <snip> > > Cats are not dogs and using dog training techniques, especially negative > ones, are unnecessary. And to think that calling or promoting a > punishment as "positive" is acceptable is just silly. You missed the entire point of the post, which you snipped. That is not unexpected from someone who seems to enjoy making points completely unrelated to the original posting. Don't use behaviorism terms incorrectly. That is all. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: >Don't use behaviorism terms incorrectly. I didn't. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. Yep. Everyone learned in Psych 101 that "negative reinforcement" does not equal "punishment." > > Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to > increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. > > Yep. Everyone learned in Psych 101 that "negative reinforcement" does not > equal "punishment." That is correct for those who took Psych 101. What about the rest of the world? -- those who did not attend college or did not take Psych or fell asleep during class. It's better to use language that *everyone* will understand if we are trying to provide information to someone who has no knowledge about animal behavior. MaryL "MaryL" <carstan101@yahoo.comTAKE-OUT-THE-LITTER> wrote in message > That is correct for those who took Psych 101. What about the rest of the world? -- those who did not attend college or did not take Psych or fell asleep during class. It's better to use language that *everyone* will understand if we are trying to provide information to someone who has no knowledge about animal behavior. I think we are on the same side of the fence here. It was Megan who used the term "negative reinforcement" as though she knew that it meant punishment. It does not. Simple language is fine. The clearer the better. Point here is not to use fancy terms you do not understand. >It was Megan who used the term >"negative reinforcement" as though she >knew that it meant punishment. NOWHERE in my post did I use the term "negative reinforcement." Again, in your haste to find a way to criticize, you make yourself look like an idiot. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >It was Megan who used the term > >"negative reinforcement" as though she [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in your haste to find a way to criticize, you make yourself look like an > idiot. Hmm ... oh, Kaeli, to what were you referring when you corrected ol' Sunshine Megan? I never read her posts, so I stumbled upon your answer to her post and, yes, assumed she had used the term incorrectly. Perhaps you can straighten us out here. > > >It was Megan who used the term > > >"negative reinforcement" as though she [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > your answer to her post and, yes, assumed she had used the term incorrectly. > Perhaps you can straighten us out here. Original post from Megan: [quote] Subject: Re: Tough love for baaad kittie From: zuzu22@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Path: netnews.proxy.lucent.com!ash.uu.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net! 207.115.63.142!prodigy.com!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-3001.bay.webtv.net! newssorter-3001.bay.webtv.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <14486-40CA563D-274@storefull-3194.bay.webtv.net> Gertrude wrote: >In that case you must get tougher; try >adding a *very small* measure of shaking >or tossing, or grabbing-lifting by some >other more sensitive body part (ears, tail, >etc.). I'm aghast that you think "shaking or tossing, or grabbing-lifting by some other more sensitive body part (ears, tail, etc.)" is an appropriate way to treat a cat and is good advice. I can only assume that you have a sadistic side that controls your thoughts and actions. The methods you describe are unnecessary and abusive. Negative reinforcement is a lousy concept that rarely works, and when it does the response is based on fear and/or pain rather than a desire to exhibit good behavior. Positive reinforcement and distraction techniques are much more effective. Anyone that would recommend methods that involve inflicting physical pain, hostility and fear, especially on a cat that is about 1/15th the size of a human or smaller, is nothing short of an animal abuser. You included. [/quote] Signature-- ~kaeli~ God was my co-pilot... but then we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > > > >It was Megan who used the term > > > >"negative reinforcement" as though she [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > animal abuser. You included. > [/quote] Thank you. I wrote: >NOWHERE in my post did I use the term >"negative reinforcement." Again, in your >haste to find a way to criticize, you make >yourself look like an idiot. I see looking back that I did use the term in a post under a different title. It doesn't change the fact that what I said about negative reinforcement being a lousy concept is true. It might as well be punishment because you are starting off using an aversive (which could be a slap, a shock or anything else negative and realistically *is* a punishment) and you are lessening, then removing the aversive when you increase then achieve the desired behavior. It's basically bullying an animal into doing you what you want it to do and it's certainly not a way I would choose to get "results." Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > I wrote: > >NOWHERE in my post did I use the term [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > be a slap, a shock or anything else negative and realistically *is* a > punishment) and you are lessening, then removing the aversive when you No. You just are not going to get it, are you? Might as well give it up, it is beginning to be painful to watch. It doesn't really matter--it's just a reminder not to use terms you aren't quite sure you understand. If you mean punishment say punishment. Simple. >If you mean punishment say punishment. >Simple. Maybe you should actually read before you open mouth and insert foot. I wrote: "As I stated before, there are positive ways (and in my world that means "good", not "bad" ) to stop cats from exhibiting what we deem to be "bad" behaviors and doing something negative to a cat is unnecessary. I don't use a squirt bottle, hitting, or anything of that nature and have a houseful of cats that don't cause problems." It doesn't get much clearer than that. I said I don't believe in doing negative things to cats and went on to describe examples. If anything is painful to watch, it's your consistent and continuous downward spiral. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >I wrote: >>NOWHERE in my post did I use the term [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >punishment) and you are lessening, then removing the aversive when you >increase then achieve the desired behavior. Actually, that's not what negative reinforcement is at all. In the jargon of the behavioural world, negative refers to the removal of something, and positive refers to the addition of something. So, in your example, the hypothetical person is applying positive punishment (the aversive), and then applying negative reinforcement (the removal of the aversive). Of course, all animals learn best when using positive reinforcement and negative punishment. An example of that is training a dog to not jump up on you. Jumping is an attention-seeking behaviour, so if the dog jumps up, you turn your back and deprive the dog of your attention (negative punishment). When the dog settles, you turn back and give the sought attention (positive reinforcement). >It's basically bullying an >animal into doing you what you want it to do and it's certainly not a >way I would choose to get "results." With some, very dominent, dogs it can be necessary to use aversives (or corrections). Granted, when I refer to aversives I am never referring to physical pain -- that's counterproductive. But verbal correction, dominent posture, and taste aversives (like Bitter Apple) are sometime necessary for the dog's safety as well as the trainer's. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >Actually, that's not what negative >reinforcement is at all. Yes, it is. >In the jargon of the behavioural world, >negative refers to the removal of >something, and positive refers to the >addition of something. And, as I *correctly* described earlier, an example of negative reinforcement is that a behavior is modified as a result of the animal trying to avoid a negative condition that is presented. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > And, as I *correctly* described earlier, an example of negative > reinforcement is that a behavior is modified as a result of the animal > trying to avoid a negative condition that is presented. > > Megan And again you are wrong. Keep arguing it. It's fun to watch. Signature-- ~kaeli~ God was my co-pilot... but then we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > In article , zuzu22 @webtv.net > enlightened us with... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> condition that is presented. >> Megan > And again you are wrong. And you have what evidence to back this up? Again, what I am saying *is* correct, and I *can* back it up. From page 276 of Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals: "Negative reinforcement is the withdrawal of a stimulus that then increases the probability of a behavior being repeated." The example used is that of a dog wearing a choke chain that stops pulling in order to stop being choked. That jibes exactly with what I said earlier. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > > In article , zuzu22 @webtv.net > > enlightened us with... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > That jibes exactly with what I said earlier. No, it doesn't. http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html --- Negative Reinforcement strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the behavior. Punishment, on the other hand, weakens a behavior because a negative condition is introduced or experienced as a consequence of the behavior. --- The behavior, pulling, is DECREASING because of a stimulus. That rules out negative reinforcement. Choke corrections are punishment. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Murphy's Law #2000: If enough data is collected, anything may be proven by statistical methods. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: >The behavior, pulling, is DECREASING >because of a stimulus. That rules out >negative reinforcement. >Choke corrections are punishment. Again, you are wrong. NOWHERE did I say anything about a "choke correction." Try paying attention and you won't look so foolish. I'll try to make it very, very simple for you, and since I've used the example given by Dr. Overall herself, who knows more than either you or I about this subject, if you disagree you are certainly free to take it up with her. 1.The dog is wearing a choke collar. 2.As long as he doesn't pull, the collar stays loose and comfortable. 3. If the dog runs ahead and pulls on the collar, it tightens and chokes him. There is no "correction" or "punishment" by the human involved here. What happens is completely dependant on the choice the dog makes and he is solely responsiblke for what happens next. 4. The dog stops pulling, the collar loosens and becomes comfortable again. 5. The dog learns that in order to avoid the collar tightening he must not pull ahead. 6. The dog then chooses to not pull ahead in order to avoid being choked. The negative condition (being choked) is stopped as a consequence of the behavior (the dog choosing to stay alongside rather than run ahead.) If you don't get this now then there's no hope for you. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Kaeli wrote: > >The behavior, pulling, is DECREASING [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I about this subject, if you disagree you are certainly free to take it > up with her. You know, if you want to take the word of ONE person's website over all the other behaviorism sites everyone has quoted for you, that's your prerogative. You believe what you like. Have a nice day. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead-to-know basis. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace Kaeli wrote: >You know, if you want to take the word >of ONE person's website over all the other >behaviorism sites everyone has quoted for >you, that's your prerogative. >You believe what you like. Thank you for proving unequivocally that you have *zero* comprehension skills. The information did not come from a "website" and I stated more than once exactly where it came from and even the page numbers. It came from a *veterinary textbook*, Clinical Behavior Medicine for Small Animals, written by a very well known and respected expert in animal behavior, Dr. Karen Overall, a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behavior and a certified behaviorist. Here is a general history of the doctor: Dr Karen Overall BA MA VMD PhD Dr. Karen Overall received her BA and MA degrees concomitantly from the University of Pennsylvania in 1978. After a year spent at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute in Panama she was awarded her VMD from the University of Pennsylvania, School of Veterinary Medicine in 1983. She completed a residency in Behavioural Medicine at Penn in 1989. Her PhD in Zoology was awarded by the University of Wisconsin - Madison for research focusing on mating systems and egg physiology of a protected lizard. Dr. Overall has given hundreds of national and international presentations and short courses and is the author of numerous articles on behavioural medicine and lizard behavioural ecology. In addition to occasionally writing for the popular press, she has also been a regular columnist for both Canine and Feline Practice journals, the APDT Newsletter, and currently writes a bimonthly column for DVM Newsmagazine. Her best-selling textbook, Clinical Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals, was published by Mosby in 1997. Her next text, Handbook of Clinical Behavioural Medicine, is due out in late 2001 - early 2002. She is a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviour (ACVB) and is certified by the Animal Behaviour Society (ABS) as an Applied Animal Behaviourist. Dr. Overall has continuously run the Behaviour Clinic at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine since mid-1988. Her research interests focus on the development of animal models for human psychiatric illness, particularly those involving anxiety, panic, and aggression. She was awarded the 1993 Randy Award for excellence and creativity in research. Other interests include integration of conservation biology into veterinary medicine, international outreach, and participation in student-based community outreach initiatives. HTH. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Kaeli wrote: > >You know, if you want to take the word [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Dr Karen Overall > BA MA VMD PhD Having letters after one's name does not make what one says completely accurate 100% of the time. She's human. That said, I gave you plenty of sources from several sites (not books, since to quote from a book means that a person has to actually have the book to verify it) from actual educational materials. The same materials, no doubt, the good doctor has read. As I don't have that book in front of me, I can't verify the exact wording of her example to either agree or disagree with it. I have only what you posted, which was [quote] "Negative reinforcement is the withdrawal of a stimulus that then increases the probability of a behavior being repeated." The example used is that of a dog wearing a choke chain that stops pulling in order to stop being choked. [/quote] I agree with the first part. The way you worded the second is clearly stopping a behavior. If you choose to see it as increasing non-pulling behavior instead of decreasing pulling behavior, that's your (and apparently, the doctor's) POV. However, I see it as stopping pulling behavior, as do pretty much all the dog trainers I've ever read. That's why it's called a correction. And whether it's the trainer doing the correction or the dog, it's still a correction. See Koehler training for fine examples of the dog correcting itself by pulling forward. Also note that Koehler training is completely out of favor in the dog world because of such harsh corrections when the dog lunges forward and constricts itself. See it however you like. I see it my way. You see it yours. I'm not going to argue over this any further. It's getting boring. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Contrary to popular opinion, the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'fact'. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace (...) > http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html > --- [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > out negative reinforcement. > Choke corrections are punishment. Ah, but: The behavior, walking normally, is INCREASING because of a negative stimulus... TBH, I think Megan's more correct in her interpretation here. The example is analogous to the usual spiel of a rat needing to press a button to eliminate continual electric shocks. Steve. > Ah, but: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve. Even if I conceeded that it is indeed an example of negative reinforcement (which I can see both sides of this argument, certainly, but don't quite agree with it as a good example), it contradicts the post that made me reply in the first place. The example of the rat pressing a button is much clearer (much less ambiguous) and the example I see most often. [quote] Negative reinforcement is a lousy concept that rarely works, and when it does the response is based on fear and/or pain rather than a desire to exhibit good behavior. [/quote] Sorry, but choke chains work great for eliminating pulling, and they don't make a dog afraid or in pain in the least. Having had dogs and having used choke chains, I can attest that my dogs are certainly not afraid or in pain. Nor do they pull. Nor are the millions of dogs trained that way fearful or in pain. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Punctuation, capitalization, and grammar are your friends, and will help people think that you aren't such an ignorant moron, after all. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >Of course, all animals learn best when >using positive reinforcement and negative [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >deprive the dog of your attention (negative >punishment). That is incorrect. That is called *extinction.* If you want to argue this point you might want to first take a look at Clinical Behavior Medicine for Small Animals, page 277 which states: "*Extinction* is the cessation of a response when reinforcement is stopped. The classical example of extinction of a response in dogs is the dog that jumps up on people for attention. If people pet the dog this continues, if they stop at once and continue to withhold attention the dog will eventually extinguish its response because the reward is no longer there." If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen > Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. >I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. And this is what you are reduced to when presented with facts. No surprise there. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > > If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen > > Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. > > I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. Nah...Megan just bitchslapped you so hard your eyes crossed. I love watching the intellects trample you underfoot, it makes my day! (:D) > > If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen > > Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. > > I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. No, your eyes are crossed from that bitch slapping Megan just gave you. I love watching the intellects trample you underfoot. It makes my day! (:D) > > If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen > > Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. > > I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. No, your eyes are crossed from that bitch slapping Megan just gave you. I love watching the intellects trample you underfoot. It makes my day! (:D) > > If you have an issue with that you'll have to take it up with Dr. Karen > > Overall, M.A.,V.M.D, Ph.D. > > I'm not rolling my eyes. No sir. Not me. No, your eyes are crossed from that bitch slapping Megan just gave you. I love watching the intellects trample you underfoot. It makes my day! (:D) (...) > >punishment. An example of that is training > >a dog to not jump up on you. Jumping is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That is incorrect. That is called *extinction.* Arguably it's not. Extinction is when a behaviour is unlearned because it no longer has any consequences at all, either positive or negative. In the example above, turning your back on the dog is (arguably) a specific, aversive action directed at the dog. So, a case can be made that the situation involves punishment, not extinction. However, I think you could argue the toss either way, depending on whether you simply ignore the dog, or actively withdraw from the dog. Again, correct definitions are presented at: http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/opcond.html Steve. Steve wrote: >Arguably it's not. You conveniently snipped the textbook definition of extinction, which verifies what I said. But if you would rather use the definition from the webpage you provided, it backs up what I'm saying as well: "In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition." When a dog jumps on you turning one's back and ignoring the dog, rather then petting it (positive) or pushing it off of you (negative) fits this definition exactly. There is no interaction involved with the dog. The dog is completely ignored. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Steve wrote: > >Arguably it's not. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > definition exactly. There is no interaction involved with the dog. The > dog is completely ignored. Turning your back on the dog is a negative stimulus to the dog. It desires attention. You removed that attention. Ignoring something can easily be punishment. Ask any child who is forced to stand in the corner for being an evil little monster how much they like being ignored. Signature-- ~kaeli~ Murphy's Law #2000: If enough data is collected, anything may be proven by statistical methods. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > Steve wrote: > >Arguably it's not. > > You conveniently snipped the textbook definition of extinction, which > verifies what I said. But if you would rather use the definition from > the webpage you provided, it backs up what I'm saying as well: The webpage I provided *is* the textbook definition of extinction. > "In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of > not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > definition exactly. There is no interaction involved with the dog. The > dog is completely ignored. It depends how you treat the act of actively (heh) turning away from the dog. The active withdrawal of attention could by argued as punishment. Extinction is usually used to mean the loss of learning when a behaviour has no consequences (vide definition above). So, if you'd actually read my post as opposed to reading what you thought my post said, you might've realised that I'm not strongly disagreeing with you. The toss can be argued either way. Steve. >>Of course, all animals learn best when >>using positive reinforcement and negative [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >That is incorrect. That is called *extinction.* *laugh* Extinction is the hoped-for result of the use of negative punishment in the jumping-up scenario. Extinction is a process, not an action. And before extinction you get an extinction burst, which is annoying and yet hope-giving because you know the behaviour is almost gone. >If you want to argue this point you might want to first take a look at >Clinical Behavior Medicine for Small Animals, page 277 which states: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the dog will eventually extinguish its response because the reward is no >longer there." Please note the use of 'eventually' in the above definition. They are not referring to the use of negative reinforcement, but to the extinction process, correctly described above. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >Extinction is the hoped-for result of the >use of negative punishment in the >jumping-up scenario. Extinction is a >process, not an action. What you described was a process designed to eliminate jumping behavior i.e. extinction. If you were to only discuss one aspect of the process, such as removal of attention *or* praise for settling down, that would be a different story. You didn't. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >>Of course, all animals learn best when > >>using positive reinforcement and negative [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > They are not referring to the use of negative reinforcement, but to > the extinction process, correctly described above. Thanks for clearing that up, Orchid. I had missed "Extinction" in my long-ago Psych 101 course. (It was going to be my major but I quit when I found out that the so-called "rat-running" courses were mandatory. Didn't want to do it. It seemed cruel.) >> Please note the use of 'eventually' in the above definition. >> They are not referring to the use of negative reinforcement, but to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >found out that the so-called "rat-running" courses were mandatory. Didn't >want to do it. It seemed cruel.) *grin* My pet rats used to run mazes for fun (and assorted other tricks). Rats are extremely intelligent, and they enjoy mental stimulation. The girls knew that there was yummy yummy food in the middle of the maze and they had great fun navigating their way to it. :) Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >I wrote: >>NOWHERE in my post did I use the term [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >animal into doing you what you want it to do and it's certainly not a >way I would choose to get "results." ---------------------------------------------------- Actually, a little different. The two things are defined by their effect: A behavior that is punished will occur less often, and there are two types of punishment, there is adding an unpleasant consequence (when you badmouth me I slap you upside the head) and withdrawal of a pleasant consequence (when you badmouth me I suddenly stop playing with you and walk away). If I remember correctly, punishment is effective only as long as there is the threat of punishment. You can make be stop badmouthing you, if you hit me, but you aren't teaching me not to badmouth people in general. A positive reinforcer strengthens a behavior when it is added as a consequence (When you get good grades in school I praise you and cook your favorite dinner). A negative reinforcer strengthens a behavior by being removed (when you get poor grades I lecture you inteminably, when you get good grades, I leave you alone). This is how people/animals learn escape and avoidance behaviors. The terms don't refer to what is being done, a large portion of brocolli can be someone's favorite treat, or something so odious that they will do anything, if only the brocolli is removed from the room. Dagda@garbagercn.com Take out the garbage to reply If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing. >> > Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to >> increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >MaryL using force and punishment will either make a cat scared of her human, or hostile towards him. it's the same as using force with children. -L > > Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to > increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. > > Yep. Everyone learned in Psych 101 that "negative reinforcement" does not > equal "punishment." For those who missed Psych 101 http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/opcond.html From the above: 'Negative reinforcement is when a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition.' In and of itself, NR is neither abusive nor non-abusive. We add the value judgement depending on how we view the 'negative condition'. The same applies to punishments. S. >> > Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus in an effort to >> increase behavior. It is certainly not abusive. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >S. cats use negative reinforcement on humans as well. if they could say "please stop handling me, you are annoying me and i want to go about my business," i suspect they would, but they can hit, or bite which works just fine. -L circa Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:35:00 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, MadHatter (devil_m@y_care.lost) said, > cats use negative reinforcement on humans as well. if they could say > "please stop handling me, you are annoying me and i want to go about > my business," i suspect they would, but they can hit, or bite which > works just fine. Too true! Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > cats use negative reinforcement on humans as well. if they could say "please stop handling me, you are annoying me and i want to go about my business," i suspect they would, but they can hit, or bite which works just fine. Buddha stiffarms me, then gives me what I call "the Look of Death." Honestly, there is a sneer on her face and she stares at me wide-eyed with her pale green eyes. If I am still holding her by the time she says "mack mack," I'll soon be looking for a bandaid. circa Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:56:01 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, > > cats use negative reinforcement on humans as well. if they could say > "please stop handling me, you are annoying me and i want to go about my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > her pale green eyes. If I am still holding her by the time she says "mack > mack," I'll soon be looking for a bandaid. And if she says "peterbilt peterbilt", you're in *serious* trouble... Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:56:01 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > And if she says "peterbilt peterbilt", you're in *serious* trouble... Heh. She says "mack mack! CHOMP" rabbitkickrabbitkickrabbitkickLEAPscamperscamperscamperperchin a window totally nonchalant While I bleed. circa Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:26:56 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, > > > Buddha stiffarms me, then gives me what I call "the Look of Death." > > > Honestly, there is a sneer on her face and she stares at me wide-eyed [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > While I bleed. And this is your *nice* cat, right? ;-) Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > And this is your *nice* cat, right? ;-) She was until Gnarly died. Now Cheeky outnices her, bigtime. But I love them both, of course. Most things I've loved left scars of some sort, anyway. circa Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:39:08 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, > Most things I've loved left scars of some sort, anyway. Are we still talking about cats here? ;-) Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:39:08 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, > > Most things I've loved left scars of some sort, anyway. > > > Are we still talking about cats here? ;-) Cats, motorcycles, and lesser creatures. ;) circa Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:00:56 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, > > > Most things I've loved left scars of some sort, anyway. > > > > > Are we still talking about cats here? ;-) > > Cats, motorcycles, and lesser creatures. ;) Ah, men. ;-) Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:00:56 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > Mary (rosefan@email.com) said, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > Ah, men. ;-) Exactly. I hope nobody actually follows this advice. It's given by a jerk who hides behind a phony address. I wouldn't resort to shaking a cat as a form of discipline. I would, however, have no problem suggesting that nobody@nowhere.com jump off a bridge. >I hope nobody actually follows this advice. It's given by a jerk who hides >behind a phony address. I wouldn't resort to shaking a cat as a form of >discipline. I would, however, have no problem suggesting that >nobody@nowhere.com jump off a bridge. mother cats don't do it as a form of discipline. they only do that to carry a SMALL kitten from one place to another. i've seen my cat do that and the cat we had in Russia do that with her kittens, but none of us ever picked up a kitten heavier than 2 lbs like that. even that is too heavy - if they can walk and run, there's no need to do that |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message