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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2004IVD for struvite, any experience?
My Farfou has been diagnosed with struvite crystals. After 5 days at the vet he came back home. I am supposed to feed him Hill's c/d prescription diet but he refused to touch it and it has been 3 days now ... He is hungry and would actually eat his normal dry and wet food. I try to lure him with fresh chicken, which he eats a little bit. He was always eating better quality canned and dry Petguard or Wellness. I would like to try the IVD prescription food. Does anyone have (good or bad) experience with this brand? Or advise how can I make him eat the c/d food? Patricia circa 9 Jun 2004 21:48:52 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Patricia (over@mindspring.com) said, > Or advise how can I make him eat the c/d food? Have you tried this? http://tinyurl.com/25mka Laura  SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > My Farfou has been diagnosed with struvite crystals. > After 5 days at the vet he came back home. I am supposed to feed him [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Patricia ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how much he eats and spits out. you will probably find he eats some and realises and spits out the rest but enough gets eaten to work. circa Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:34:39 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, icarus (icarus@cold.com) said, > ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the > struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how > much he eats and spits out. you will probably find he eats some and realises > and spits out the rest but enough gets eaten to work. Just out of curiosity, do you have a source for this information? Thanks, Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde : ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the : struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how : much he eats and spits out. you will probably find he eats some and realises : and spits out the rest but enough gets eaten to work. Plain old Vitamin C? Do you have any more information or links you could provide? I have a male that blocked once and is now on SD-c/d. Linda > : ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down > the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Linda I did have when I researched it. I don't have the links now as it isn't a problem for my cat now that he gets ascorbic acid. I think you can buy vitamin C that isn't ascorbic acid and that type doesn't increase the acidity level. There was a report when I looked from a lady that feeds a colony of feral cats in New York and she had lots of first hand anecdotal evidence of the cats being far better once she added ascorbic acid. generally healthier and less prone to infection. Vets don't recommend it as its really cheap and Hills or comparable food is really expensive. > > : ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down > > the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > generally healthier and less prone to infection. Vets don't recommend it as > its really cheap and Hills or comparable food is really expensive. This is the active ingredient in Hills to cure struvite crystals and you can buy it instead of Hills prescription (Hills is just ordinary pet food plus this stuff)....... http://www.lloydinc.com/vmsmall/methioform.html Its cheap in the USA but expensive here. see thread below for info. > This is the active ingredient in Hills to cure struvite crystals and you can > buy it instead of Hills prescription (Hills is just ordinary pet food plus [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Its cheap in the USA but expensive here. see thread below for info. Icarus - again that is incorrect. It is a great deal more complicated that simply adding urinary acidfiers to a diet. For that reason testing is done on foods to determine the APR value of a food. APR (Activity Product Ratio)is a method of looking at the bio reactors and every constituent involved in the process. Just removing magensium and/or adding urinary acidifiers is not the best possible choice. > > This is the active ingredient in Hills to cure struvite crystals and you can > > buy it instead of Hills prescription (Hills is just ordinary pet food plus [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > every constituent involved in the process. Just removing magensium > and/or adding urinary acidifiers is not the best possible choice. true Steve but I wasn't suggesting that you should stop feeding the cat and simply give it methioform. I was assuming that the reader of my posting would have a basic knowledge of a cat's needs (like they need to be fed) and would give methioform PLUS a quality cat food that gave a good balance. That works out significantly cheaper than using Hills or another prescription food. Vet's don't want to tell you this as they make nearly ?5 per bag on each bag of prescription diet food that they sell; an average vet's practice sells maybe > 100 bags a week to their pet owners so that's an easy profit each week with very little effort on the part of the vet. I know this as I have spoken to more than one veterinary nurse working in different practices. >From: "icarus" icarus@cold.com >> "icarus" <icarus@cold.com> wrote in message >news:<2j0878Fsdvm7U1@uni-berlin.de>... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >week with very little effort on the part of the vet. I know this as I have >spoken to more than one veterinary nurse working in different practices. Icarus, Steve Crane works for Hill's so I would imagine his opinions are a bit biased. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >true Steve but I wasn't suggesting that you should stop feeding the cat and > >simply give it methioform. I was assuming that the reader of my posting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > >Vet's don't want to tell you this as they make nearly ?5 per bag on each bag > >of prescription diet food that they sell; an average vet's practice sells > >maybe > 100 bags a week to their pet owners so that's an easy profit each [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lauren Hi Lauren, That's really interesting. He should say that he has an economic interest in the status quo and declare his employer in his posts. cheers > > >true Steve but I wasn't suggesting that you should stop feeding the cat > and [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > cheers Icarus, I peridodically post a legal notice of the above, since I am NOT posting here for the company it is impossible for me to append my employment to every post. That would be construed - so the lawyers say - as being from the company I work for. >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) >> > Icarus, Steve Crane works for Hill's so I would imagine his opinions are >a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >employment to every post. That would be construed - so the lawyers say >- as being from the company I work for. The only time you post that you work for Hill's is when you're called on it, especially when you're bashing other pet food companies, and making up false information about them. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Vet's don't want to tell you this as they make nearly £5 per bag on each bag > of prescription diet food that they sell; an average vet's practice sells > maybe > 100 bags a week to their pet owners so that's an easy profit each > week with very little effort on the part of the vet. I know this as I have > spoken to more than one veterinary nurse working in different practices. Icarus, Vets don't "want to tell you this" because it simply isn't true. Not because of some profit motive. I do not have much familiarity with vets in the UK, but I doubt seriously if they are a breed apart from US vets. What you are proposing is medicine circa 1950 when we only had methioform tabs and ammonium chloride tabs to alter urine pH. Since that time we have learned a great deal more about the pathophysiology of struvite and CaOx stones and FLUTD in general. Altering urine pH and reducing magesium (in struvite only) does not resolve all the issues in FLUTD cats. It _may_ work in some subset of cats, but neither you nor I can predict which cat 1950's medicine will work on and which ones it will not. Further your suggestion that 5£ profit in some way is innapropriate is pretty silly. Buying a decent quality food and then adding a supplement almost always ends up being more expensive in the long run. There are numerous wellness pet foods on the market that cost considerably more to feed than Prescription Diet c/d. Choosing one that is of good quality will inevitably mean the overall cost of feeding the cat is less than buying the diet designed for the disease entity in the first place. That's of course assuming you could find a wellness diet on the market that met the minimal parameters in the first place. It might be interesting to take a look at just this process. How about providing for me a cat food brand sold in the UK. I will need the following information and I will do the math to dtermine the actual costs. 1. Name, brand, of the suggested cat food 2. Size of the bag/can 3. Cost of the bag/can 4. Kcals ME per gram/kg/ounce/pound/can etc. If Kcals are provided per cup of dry food - then how much does a cup of the food weigh. 5. Magnesium level (must be less than 0.065% dry matter basis) 6. Suggested supplement name 7. Contents of supplement - (mgs methio, ammonium chloride etc) 8. Cost of supplement package 9. Number of tablets contained in the package. 10. Supplement company reccomended dose per day. About time for the periodic legalese. While I have been teaching small animal clinical nutrition to veterinarians and thier staff members for over 20 years as an employee of Hill's Pet Nutrition - ANYTHING I say here is my personal opinion alone and should not be construed to represent the company I work for in any way shape or form. > > Vet's don't want to tell you this as they make nearly ?5 per bag on each bag > > of prescription diet food that they sell; an average vet's practice sells > > maybe > 100 bags a week to their pet owners so that's an easy profit each [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > vets in the UK, but I doubt seriously if they are a breed apart from > US vets. The way vetrinary prescirption drugs are provided within the UK is currently being researched by the EC as the profit margins within the UK are excessive. As an example ...... dl-methionine (trade name methio-form) only costs ?9.00 maximum for 150 500mg tablets in the USA but it costs ?60 here in the UK for equivalent quantity/prescription strength from a UK vet !!! Hills costs ?15.95 from a vet for a 2kilo bag and costs them ?11.00. They have a captive audience and make huge profits from recommending it. Many practices make in excess of ?50,000 per year profit selling it and consequently have no insentive to recommend any alternative approach. I dont think thats very fair and apparently neither does the EC. > About time for the periodic legalese. > While I have been teaching small animal clinical nutrition to > veterinarians and thier staff members for over 20 years as an employee > of Hill's Pet Nutrition - ANYTHING I say here is my personal opinion > alone and should not be construed to represent the company I work for > in any way shape or form. Its a good idea to state that you work for Hills as you have an 'interest' too, thank you. I'm still curious and would like to do the math on the costs, if you have the time and can obtain the information requested I would love to see how it turns out. I won't be able to respond for a week as I'm off on vacation with my hobby activity - Shriners Childrens Hospitals. > I'm still curious and would like to do the math on the costs, if you > have the time and can obtain the information requested I would love to > see how it turns out. I won't be able to respond for a week as I'm off > on vacation with my hobby activity - Shriners Childrens Hospitals. However, we have got bogged down on Vitamin C whereas my view is that any good balanced food plus Vitamin C and methionine will do the trick. After all, what is the active prescription ingredient in Hills ? There is an interesting breakdown of what's in various cat foods on this website..... felinecrf.org. You are arguing that Hills is the best as it provides the best balance overall with the lowest ash etc.... why don't you (I am sure you have already) look at the non-prescription cat foods shown there and take two of the most balanced and add VitaminC and methionine to the daily feed and then do your magic calculations and tell us which is the best ??? I am sure we can trust your professional integrity to be fair in the appraisal. If they lack something, tell us what and give a fair comparison with Hills. After all you are not here representing Hills so what would you lose ? My main point was that people go to a Veterinary Practice for professional advice/consultancy and help. However, the current system in the UK gives the vet such a large financial benefit that it would be surprising if they were impartial. This is rather unfair as the dice are loaded towards the vet always recommending a long term prescription diet because of the financial income they gain from giving that advice. People expect professional help but instead end up talking to a salesman. >From: "icarus" icarus@cold.com >> I'm still curious and would like to do the math on the costs, if you >> have the time and can obtain the information requested I would love to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >income they gain from giving that advice. People expect professional help >but instead end up talking to a salesman. It's very much like that here in the states as well from what I have seen. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > > Vet's don't want to tell you this as they make nearly £5 per bag on each bag > > of prescription diet food that they sell; an average vet's practice sells [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > 9. Number of tablets contained in the package. > 10. Supplement company reccomended dose per day. For some reason Google is notletting me post a response to your message, so I'll append it here. I'll work with just the one as it illustrates the point, the remaining are merely hypothesis without any proven factual data to support them. We have to learn to understand what is curently being called Evidence Based Medicine. What that means is that you look at a variety of different pieces of information and grade eachone based upon certain aspects. This has been done in human medicine for about a decade and is just now getting some attention in veterinary medicien. See the upcoming AVMA journal for an article on Evidence Based Veterinary Nutrition. Evidence base dmedicine requires we judge the valueof any given statement based upon a set of criteria. In descending order. Evidence Based Medicine Grade 1 Peer reviewed, published, clinical trial, in the animals for which the product is designed (not rats when you are applying it to dogs), in animals with naturally ocurring disease, double blind, controlled, often crossed studies, (animals exposed to both criteria at both groups having the same experience) or a meta analysis of a large group of lower grade studies. Evidence Based Medicine Grade II Peer reviewed published data, in an animal not that of the specie the drug or diet is going to be used for, or in surgically created disease, double blinded, and controlled, or a meta analysis of a small group of similar studies. Evidence Base Medicine Grade III A study done, Not published in peer reviewed journal, not in the animal for which the product is designed, sugicallyinduced disease or the use of a laboratory animal with a pre-disposition to that disease, Evidence Grade Medicine Grade IV Hypothesis, a logical theory, an idea, a position paper, not published in a peer reviewed journal. The evidence you cited all belongs to the bottom of the heap, none of them were a peer reviewed published study, almost all are opinion and hypothesis. The one study I gave you is a Grade II study, it fails being a Grade I study since the animals used were not crossed and then subject to the opposite action. All of the information you have posted fails to make it to even Grade III level. Most are opinion and hypothesis without any foundation in fact. Grade 1 Evidence Based medicine trumps all others until another Grade 1 Study shows otherwise. When you fail to grade the studies you have, or evaluate the level of information provided it is quite easy to accept hypothesis and then be in error. I personally have some knowledge of the attempts to use vitamin C as a urinary acidifier. I was involved in a non trial and clinical study that showed that it would take just about 1 gm per pound to alter the urine pH by 1 point. You will never get a cat to ingest 1 gm per pound, it's simply impractical and ill advised. > ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the > struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how > much he eats and spits out. you will probably find he eats some and realises > and spits out the rest but enough gets eaten to work. That is incorrect, it is impossible to get a cat to eat enough ascorbic acid to move the urine pH enough to be of any value whatsoever. > > ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the > > struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ascorbic acid to move the urine pH enough to be of any value > whatsoever. oh well I would be interested to know what you base this on Steve. There are various websites that say you are mistaken and that a cat's system absorbs up to 250mg of ascorbic acid daily (any more and it just flows through the system) and that it does cause the urine to acidify. This is an interesting website.... http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/nutrition.htm also try reading/referring to the books mentioned there. > oh well I would be interested to know what you base this on Steve. There are > various websites that say you are mistaken and that a cat's system absorbs > up to 250mg of ascorbic acid daily (any more and it just flows through the > system) and that it does cause the urine to acidify. This is an > interesting website.... http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/nutrition.htm > also try reading/referring to the books mentioned there. Icarus, Below is one of several published peer reviewed studies showing that vitamin C has NO effect on urine pH. Old wives tales and internet wishful thinking do not change the facts. Struvite stone dietetics: 1. Effect of different feed rations on the urine pH value of cats] [Article in German] Kienzle E, Schuhknecht A. Institut fur Tierernahrung, Tierarztlichen Hochschule Hannover. In this investigation the base excess of cat foods (sum of alkalogenic compounds calcium, magnesium, sodium and potassium minus sum of acidifying compounds phosphorus, chloride, methionine and cysteine; base excess in mmol/kg dry matter = Ca*2+Mg*2+Na+K-(met(-)+cys)*2-P*2-Cl) as a method of predicting the influence of food on the urinary pH was tested. The base excess and the effect on urinary pH (feeding experiment with 4 to 6 adult cats per trial) was determined in 10 commercial cat foods (3 moist, 3 dry type foods, 4 struvite diets) as well as the influence of several additives (CaCl2, CaCO3, Ca-lactate, CaHPO4, phosphoric acid in 2 doses, NH4Cl, ascorbic acid). After the intake of commercial cat foods the mean urine pH ranged between 6.58 and 7.89, after the intake of struvite diets it ranged between 6.36 and 7.57. The addition of Ca-carbonate or -lactate led to a significant increase of urine pH, Ca-phosphate and ascorbic acid had no effect, while Ca-Chloride, phosphoric acid and ammonium chloride led to a decrease. There was a highly significant correlation between the base excess in the food (x; mmol/kg dry matter) and the mean urine pH (y; y = 6.72 + 0.0021 x; r = 0.96**). > > oh well I would be interested to know what you base this on Steve. There are > > various websites that say you are mistaken and that a cat's system absorbs [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > mmol/kg dry matter) and the mean urine pH (y; y = 6.72 + 0.0021 x; r = > 0.96**). Steve I am posting this information again as you seem to be rather selective about what you answer on here and what posts you chose to notice :) Please explain why these folk are wrong. Its not me saying that it does increase acidity its various responsible places on the web. > That is incorrect, it is impossible to get a cat to eat enough > ascorbic acid to move the urine pH enough to be of any value > whatsoever. Steve, your statement appears to be incorrect. Please see the quotes below for information. Basically Vitamin C does acidify urine as it passes through the system. Some reports say it does significant good in reducing struvite crystals and cannot do a cat ANY harm whatsoever by being added to a cats diet. It is an known fact that struvite crystals occur due to cats urine being too alkaline, Vitamin C makes a cats urine more acidic so what is your point please ? American Animal Hospital Association http://www.healthypet.com/Library/illness-9.html quote.....you may need to administer medications, Vitamin C, or a special diet to help keep his urine acidic www.peteducation.com quote (references to animals other than cats removed) ......... Vitamins C and B complex are water soluble. Water soluble vitamins are not stored within the body except in small amounts. It is for this reason that the fat soluble vitamins pose the biggest threat if oversupplemented. The body tissues do not readily store water soluble vitamins and when fed in excess, they are easily eliminated from the body via the urine. Because they do not accumulate within the tissues, there is minimal risk of toxic effects. In fact, we are not aware of a single toxicity case ever having been documented in either cats or dogs. Vitamin C Vitamin C has been thought to prevent hip dysplasia, cure feline leukemia, and prevent urinary tract infections. We have worked with several animals that had clinical hip dysplasia, that when given high levels of vitamin C, seemed to exhibit fewer signs of joint pain. It did not cure the condition, but it did seem to allow the patient to better live with the problem. In the case of bladder infections, we believe that vitamin C is unusual in that it is excreted unchanged totally via the kidneys, and it therefore, acidifies the urine. This makes the bladder a much less hospitable place for bacteria to live. Most of the bacteria that cause cystitis (bladder infection) survive much better in environments that have an alkaline pH. Therefore, by acidifying the urine with vitamin C, these organisms are often eliminated. As far as its use in viral diseases like the common cold or feline leukemia, in all honesty, there is little evidence of its value. At the same time, we would readily admit that vitamin C can do no harm when used. As we stated, it is excreted unchanged via the urine. Forms of Vitamin C: We know that vitamin C exists in two forms: as dehydroascorbic acid and as ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is easily hydrolyzed (mixed with water) and therefore, it is readily absorbed through the intestinal wall. Likewise, it easily enters the urine to exit the body. Very little is stored within the body and the minute amount that is, is contained within the adrenal gland. Ascorbic acid can be fed or it can be manufactured within the body from glucose. Therapeutic Uses: Ascorbic acid plays many important functions in bone formation. It is involved in bone growth as well as bone mineralization. Vitamin C has been used with varying degrees of success in helping prevent the formation of some bladder stones in cats and dogs. The vitamin C makes the urine more acidic and maintaining an acid urine helps discourage the creation of most stone types. In conclusion, vitamin C is widely used as a supplement in growing, pregnant, lactating, stressed, and working pets. There are numerous vitamin C supplements available. There is no concern for vitamin C toxicity. > > ascorbic acid will increase the acidity of his urine and break down the > > struvite chrystals. just break up and add to his food and keep an eye on how [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ascorbic acid to move the urine pH enough to be of any value > whatsoever. Steve, your statement appears to be incorrect. Please see the quotes below for information. Basically Vitamin C does acidify urine as it passes through the system. Some reports say it does significant good in reducing struvite crystals and cannot do a cat ANY harm whatsoever by being added to a cats diet. It is an known fact that struvite crystals occur due to cats urine being too alkaline, Vitamin C makes a cats urine more acidic so what is your point please ? American Animal Hospital Association http://www.healthypet.com/Library/illness-9.html quote.....you may need to administer medications, Vitamin C, or a special diet to help keep his urine acidic www.peteducation.com quote (references to animals other than cats removed) ......... Vitamins C and B complex are water soluble. Water soluble vitamins are not stored within the body except in small amounts. It is for this reason that the fat soluble vitamins pose the biggest threat if oversupplemented. The body tissues do not readily store water soluble vitamins and when fed in excess, they are easily eliminated from the body via the urine. Because they do not accumulate within the tissues, there is minimal risk of toxic effects. In fact, we are not aware of a single toxicity case ever having been documented in either cats or dogs. Vitamin C Vitamin C has been thought to prevent hip dysplasia, cure feline leukemia, and prevent urinary tract infections. We have worked with several animals that had clinical hip dysplasia, that when given high levels of vitamin C, seemed to exhibit fewer signs of joint pain. It did not cure the condition, but it did seem to allow the patient to better live with the problem. In the case of bladder infections, we believe that vitamin C is unusual in that it is excreted unchanged totally via the kidneys, and it therefore, acidifies the urine. This makes the bladder a much less hospitable place for bacteria to live. Most of the bacteria that cause cystitis (bladder infection) survive much better in environments that have an alkaline pH. Therefore, by acidifying the urine with vitamin C, these organisms are often eliminated. As far as its use in viral diseases like the common cold or feline leukemia, in all honesty, there is little evidence of its value. At the same time, we would readily admit that vitamin C can do no harm when used. As we stated, it is excreted unchanged via the urine. Forms of Vitamin C: We know that vitamin C exists in two forms: as dehydroascorbic acid and as ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid is easily hydrolyzed (mixed with water) and therefore, it is readily absorbed through the intestinal wall. Likewise, it easily enters the urine to exit the body. Very little is stored within the body and the minute amount that is, is contained within the adrenal gland. Ascorbic acid can be fed or it can be manufactured within the body from glucose. Therapeutic Uses: Ascorbic acid plays many important functions in bone formation. It is involved in bone growth as well as bone mineralization. Vitamin C has been used with varying degrees of success in helping prevent the formation of some bladder stones in cats and dogs. The vitamin C makes the urine more acidic and maintaining an acid urine helps discourage the creation of most stone types. In conclusion, vitamin C is widely used as a supplement in growing, pregnant, lactating, stressed, and working pets. There are numerous vitamin C supplements available. There is no concern for vitamin C toxicity. > My Farfou has been diagnosed with struvite crystals. > After 5 days at the vet he came back home. I am supposed to feed him > Hill's c/d prescription diet but he refused to touch it and it has > been 3 days now ... > He is hungry and would actually eat his normal dry and wet food. If he's eating something that acidifies the urine, it's probably okay to also give him some of his usual wet food. The prescription diet has an acidifier so if he's eating some of that and some of his usual, that should be enough. Cats need to eat regardless, they can get serious health issues if they don't eat for too long. > I try to lure him with fresh chicken, which he eats a little bit. > He was always eating better quality canned and dry Petguard or > Wellness. I can't blame him for not eating the Hill's, the ingredients in there are pretty icky. > I would like to try the IVD prescription food. > > Does anyone have (good or bad) experience with this brand? I've never tried IVD (I don't think that's available where I am), but my cat was diagnosed with the same thing and I managed to find another premium kibble, Wysong "Uretic" formula, which does the same thing as the Hill's in that it acidifies the urine which is what you want because it dissolves the crystals. Both have the same acidifying ingredient (DL-Methionine or something like that). But the Wysong has much better ingredients than the Hill's. > Or advise how can I make him eat the c/d food? Give him his Wellness wet food and maybe some prescription kibble, as one possibility, or mix c/d wet and Wellness wet food. I used the Wysong dry, and also served lots of Wellnes wet food, and added a little extra water to his wet food, and that has done the trick (3 weeks later he was declared crystal free). I also gave him a homeopathic remedy to help with the acidification. But now I'm switching all my cats to a raw food diet because that keeps the urine in proper balance, just slightly acidic, which will help prevent the problem from recurring. If they stay on the prescription stuff with acidifiers it can cause another type of crystal that forms in a too-acidic urine! So acidifying is what you want short-term to get rid of the struvite crystals in there now, but it's not a good idea long term to have the urine too acidic. Hope this helps and I know I've rambled on a bit, but I just went through the same thing with my cat. Sherry >From: sstone@primus.ca >I've never tried IVD (I don't think that's available where I am), but my cat >was diagnosed with the same thing and I managed to find another premium [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >something like that). But the Wysong has much better ingredients than the >Hill's. Look out, LOL, Steve Crane (works for Hill's) will be posting soon how bad Wysong is (or any other brand that isn't Hill's). >But now I'm switching all my cats to a raw food diet because that keeps the >urine in proper balance, just slightly acidic, which will help prevent the >problem from recurring. I've been feeding my cats a raw diet for 4 years now and they've never had urinary problems thank goodness. I've heard once they develop the problems, it's hard to get them right again. Glad to hear your cat is doing well :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > If he's eating something that acidifies the urine, it's probably okay to > also give him some of his usual wet food. The prescription diet has an > acidifier so if he's eating some of that and some of his usual, that should > be enough. Cats need to eat regardless, they can get serious health issues > if they don't eat for too long. What is the minimal amount of food (can) a 14lbs cat needs to eat so that he didn't get badly sick? > I've never tried IVD (I don't think that's available where I am), but my cat > was diagnosed with the same thing and I managed to find another premium [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > something like that). But the Wysong has much better ingredients than the > Hill's. Wysong Uretic? Dry? I thought I should avoid giving him dry food, since this is one of the cause for stuvite crystals formation ... > I used the Wysong dry, and also served lots of Wellnes wet food, and added a > little extra water to his wet food, and that has done the trick (3 weeks > later he was declared crystal free). I also gave him a homeopathic remedy > to help with the acidification. Which homeopathic remedie did you use? > But now I'm switching all my cats to a raw food diet because that keeps the > urine in proper balance, just slightly acidic, which will help prevent the > problem from recurring. Yes, I have started feeding them raw chicken. But I still have to work on the supplements. I will buy a already prepared suppements, I was recommended to use from a yahoo group. > If they stay on the prescription stuff with > acidifiers it can cause another type of crystal that forms in a too-acidic > urine! So acidifying is what you want short-term to get rid of the struvite > crystals in there now, but it's not a good idea long term to have the urine > too acidic. I agree and I really don't want him to get the oxalate crystals. Thank you very Sherry for sharing your experinece with me/us. Patricia > But now I'm switching all my cats to a raw food diet because that keeps the > urine in proper balance, just slightly acidic, which will help prevent the > problem from recurring. > Sherry Sherry do you have any data to support this claim? I would be very interested in seeing any published peer reviewed data you might have. >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) >> But now I'm switching all my cats to a raw food diet because that keeps the >> urine in proper balance, just slightly acidic, which will help prevent the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Sherry do you have any data to support this claim? I would be very >interested in seeing any published peer reviewed data you might have. I always say the proof is in the pudding. Out of the almost 1,000 members we have in our raw feeding list, the cats that have been fed for a while on a raw diet do not experience urinary tract problems or urinary crystals. However, we do see people who feed a commercial diet join the list because their cats have urinary problems and/or crystals and are seeking to switch their cats to a raw diet because the commerical foods including "prescripton" foods aren't working, especially long term. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I always say the proof is in the pudding. Out of the almost 1,000 members we >have in our raw feeding list, the cats that have been fed for a while on a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Lauren What about fresh, cooked foods? My cats are definitely NOT interested in Raw feeding. The dogs do great on it, and I would be happy to switch the cats, but I've tried a few different attempts and have been met with glares of "you expect us to eat THIS?". As it is now, the cats are eating canned food only, mostly Neo-Diet. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience >From: j1boss@aol.com (J1Boss) >What about fresh, cooked foods? My cats are definitely NOT interested in Raw >feeding. The dogs do great on it, and I would be happy to switch the cats, >but >I've tried a few different attempts and have been met with glares of "you >expect us to eat THIS?". As it is now, the cats are eating canned food only, >mostly Neo-Diet. Yeah I know, it can be very hard to switch cats to a raw diet. Fresh cooked, as long as it's balanced and has the right supplements, is probaby better than commercial in that the ingredients are going to be a higher quality, and you know what the ingredients really are. I've never heard of Neo-Diet. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Fresh cooked, >as long as it's balanced and has the right supplements, is probaby better >than >commercial in that the ingredients are going to be a higher quality, and you >know what the ingredients really are. Yeah, I figure that as well, and probably better recieved. There are a number of homemade CRF diet recipes online - think I'll start trying them when I get back from vacation - don't need the petsitter to be trying to figure that out! > I've never heard of Neo-Diet. It's Hi-Tor's CRF diet, instead of Hill's K/D. Much more palatable. Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience >From: j1boss@aol.com (J1Boss) >> Fresh cooked, >>as long as it's balanced and has the right supplements, is probaby better [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >back from vacation - don't need the petsitter to be trying to figure that >out! Good luck. Let me know how it goes. >> I've never heard of Neo-Diet. > >It's Hi-Tor's CRF diet, instead of Hill's K/D. >Much more palatable. Oh ok. Is this something you get from your vet? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >>It's Hi-Tor's CRF diet, instead of Hill's K/D. >>Much more palatable. Lauren writes: >Oh ok. Is this something you get from your vet? No - you can get it in some specialty pet supply stores (or online of course). Its'a an alternative to K/D, which many cats seem to turn their noses up at! Janet Boss http://bestfriendsdogobedience.com/ http://photos.yahoo.com/bestfriendsobedience >From: j1boss@aol.com (J1Boss) >>>It's Hi-Tor's CRF diet, instead of Hill's K/D. >>>Much more palatable. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >course). >Its'a an alternative to K/D, which many cats seem to turn their noses up at! I'm glad to hear you found something else and that your cats will eat it :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm p.s. did you know that the nickname given by some UK vets to a really well known cat food in the UK is Gone Cat ???? Its apparently well known for causing kidney/urinary problems. Disclaimer, the comments made here in this specific message are not necessarily the opinions of the author and are simply anecdotal points provided without expressing any view /opinion of the author. They should not be considered or treated as a statement of fact as the author of this message has not presented them with that intent. June, 2004. > >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lauren > >Sherry do you have any data to support this claim? I would be very > >interested in seeing any published peer reviewed data you might have. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Lauren > ________ It makes perfect sense that cats would do well on raw food. Feral cats only eat by tooth and claw after all. There's no vegetables/ cereals or cooked food there. Have a look at felinecrf.org for lots of good information (n.b. it doesn't start www. on the front). Also http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html describes cat's nutritional requirements in detail and suggest the suitability of raw food for cats. Its been reviewed by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) so its definitely accurate/factual. circa Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:21:56 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, icarus (icarus@cold.com) said, > Have a look at felinecrf.org for lots of good information (n.b. it doesn't > start www. on the front). Yes, it does. It resolves either way. http://www.felinecrf.org http://felinecrf.org Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:21:56 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > icarus (icarus@cold.com) said, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Laura ahhh, OK, I'm an idiot, I didn't know that :) In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "icarus" > It makes perfect sense that cats would do well on raw food. > Feral cats only eat by tooth and claw after all. There's no > vegetables/ cereals or cooked food there. I have nothing against a raw diet; I?ve heard too much good to say that it is bogus. But, Stray/feral cats don?t always live on what they catch - they are opportunistic and will eat garbage if that is all there is. SignatureCheryl /butting out now after my 2? > It makes perfect sense that cats would do well on raw food. Feral cats only > eat by tooth and claw after all. There's no vegetables/ cereals or cooked > food there. AHHH, but how long do feral cats live?????? >From: "icarus" icarus@cold.com >It makes perfect sense that cats would do well on raw food. Feral cats only >eat by tooth and claw after all. There's no vegetables/ cereals or cooked [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >been reviewed by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) so its >definitely accurate/factual. That's a really great article. I have seen it before but it's always good to read it again. Wish more vets were as knowledgeable about nutrition. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "icarus" icarus@cold.com > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Lauren I hadn't realised there was so much politics in feeding cats. Its not the cost, its what's best for them and do it for the money and don't act professionally. Its sad as they are suppose to be independent and they aint. > > >From: "icarus" icarus@cold.com > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I hadn't realised there was so much politics in feeding cats. oooops, that was supposed to say....... Its not the cost, its what's best for the cat but vets make recommendations on your cat's diet according to the money they earn and don't act professionally. Its sad as they are suppose to be independent and they aint. |
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