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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2004Struvite crystals, cat in pain, prescription diets Hill's & IVD
My 'little' Farfou had to go in emergency to the vet last Tuesday. He was diagnosed with struvite crystals. The vet kept him until Sunday afternoon. He was very uncorfortable and unhappy for about 24 hours peeing everywhere except in the litter box. I give him amoxidrops (antibitotic) and on horrible antispasmic sirup (Ditropan, I think) that makes him salivate like crazy. He is still in pain, lifting his back leg and lying on the floor. Is this normal 3 days after coming back home? He is supposed to eat Hill's C/D, but until this morning, where I could get the fish flavor, he almost didn't touch it. I am willing to try anything to have him eating. I have heard from IVD products. They claim to be all natural. Does anybody have experience with them? If possible, I want Farfou to stick with Hill's C/D for a couple of weeks. If he is doing well, then I will try better quality and maybe go saw raw diet. Thank you for your feedback. Patricia-very anxious! Im surprised they didn't start him on S/D.. http://www.hillspet.com/products/product_details.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2 534374302037389&bmUID=1086827262650&PRODUCT<>prd_id=845524441760581 If he is still in pain, I would contact your vet for a follow up visit. > My 'little' Farfou had to go in emergency to the vet last Tuesday. > He was diagnosed with struvite crystals. The vet kept him until Sunday [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Patricia-very anxious! >He is supposed to eat Hill's C/D, but until this morning, where I >could get the fish flavor, he almost didn't touch it. >I am willing to try anything to have him eating. I have heard from IVD >products. >They claim to be all natural. Any pet food company can claim to be "all natural" as long as they don't add synthetic preservatives. That doesn't mean that the food doesn't contain preservatives at all. Almost all foods do. Those ingredients have to be preserved with *something* in order to keep from going rancid. Even some "natural preservatives" are themselves preserved with artificial preservatives because "natural preservatives" by themselves don't last long. >If possible, I want Farfou to stick with Hill's C/D for a couple of >weeks. If he is doing well, then I will try better quality and maybe >go saw raw diet. IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output pH. Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of antioxidants. As for switching to a raw diet, check with your vet first. >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) >IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output >pH. Got anything to back up this wild statement? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) > > >IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output > >pH. > > Got anything to back up this wild statement? I believe what Gaubster is indicating is that the range of urine pH output of the IVD diets is quite wide. Examples: IVD Select Care Control claimed a urine pH output range from 6.0-6.8 IVD Select Care Modified claimed a urine pH output range from 6.3-7.7 They took so much competitive heat over having such a wide range they no longer provide a range and will only give you a "mean" value. The inability to construct the food to maintain a narrow bandwidth of urine pH makes it difficult to know what the results will be in a cat with any given type of crystal. Published data is clear that dissolutionof struvites requires a range of 5.9-6.1, prevention of struvites requires a range of 6.0-6.4, prevention of CaOx requires a urine pH of 6.6-6.9. If you construct a food which can vary widely in and out of any given range then the process becomes more complicated. Of course there is always the sodium solution. Load the food up with so much sodium that the urine pH is no longer an issue. One company does this with thier product, pushing sodium up into the +2.0% range versus KNF MAX levels of 0.3% IVD did much the same thing to create a dissolution product, pushing sodium levels up into the 1.3% range. Works fine for a short period of time and then the excess sodium begins to be problematic. In contrast the Prescription Diet products c/d, w/d, t/d, etc are held to a narrow range of 6.2-6.4 pH. >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) >> >IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output >> >pH. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I believe what Gaubster is indicating is that the range of urine pH >output of the IVD diets is quite wide. Yep, that's what I was getting at. >Examples: >IVD Select Care Control claimed a urine pH output range from 6.0-6.8 >IVD Select Care Modified claimed a urine pH output range from 6.3-7.7 Those are the numbers that I've got, too. and where do you get these informations from. I tried to find that, but wasn't successful. Patricia > >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Those are the numbers that I've got, too. >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) >> >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Those are the numbers that I've got, too. >and where do you get these informations from. I tried to find that, >but wasn't successful. You most likely won't find these so-called numbers anywhere, Patricia. Steve Crane works for Hill's and Gaubster is his little lackey. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >> >Examples: > >> >IVD Select Care Control claimed a urine pH output range from 6.0-6.8 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lauren Oh Lauren, you just can't resist making a jab, even when it is totally uncalled for. Give me a fax number and I will be happy to fax you a copy of IVD products guide illustrating exactly the numbers I quoted here. As usual you are quick to accuse and always without any factual basis for doin so. > and where do you get these informations from. I tried to find that, > but wasn't successful. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > Those are the numbers that I've got, too. In a way that is kind of the point. IVD published those numbers in the product guides they gave to vets from 1998 through 2002, in 2002 the new product guide no longer contained a "range" but rather began showing only a "mean" value. IVD had taken some considerable heat for not being able to control the values and resolved that by simply refusing to give veterinarians the actual ranges of the product. I keep and maintain a file of old product guides from dozens of manufacturers going back many years. >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) >Examples: >IVD Select Care Control claimed a urine pH output range from 6.0-6.8 >IVD Select Care Modified claimed a urine pH output range from 6.3-7.7 > >They took so much competitive heat over having such a wide range they >no longer provide a range and will only give you a "mean" value. Where did you get your figures from? >Published data is clear that >dissolutionof struvites requires a range of 5.9-6.1, prevention of >struvites requires a range of 6.0-6.4, prevention of CaOx requires a >urine pH of 6.6-6.9. If you construct a food which can vary widely in >and out of any given range then the process becomes more complicated. I imagine it would be quite complicated. I feed my cats a homemade raw diet and we've never experiencing any kind of urinary problems, nor on the feeding list I belong to. I would imagine it would be quite hard to get the proper PH in a commercial diet where you're adding things in to get it balanced. >Of course there is always the sodium solution. Load the food up with >so much sodium that the urine pH is no longer an issue. One company >does this with thier product, Certainly not Hill's though, right Steve? ;) >IVD did much the same thing to create a >dissolution product, pushing sodium levels up into the 1.3% range. Can you point me to some references for this? You do understand it's hard for me to believe what you, a Hill's petfood employee, says about other companies. Know what I mean? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm well today I cooked my first chicken broth EVER. I need Farfou to eat more than a 1/2 can a day - he is a 14lbs cat who LOVED to eat before this episode. And chicken broth should be a healthy way to bring nutrients in him, keeping his urine PH low. I also mix some raw chicken in the little 1/4 can food he is eating, which sould also help keeping the pH low. As for IVD, since I couldn't find any and am not convinced that it is really a so much better alternative to Hill's, I am giving up on this right now. The next thing I would try would be Walthham. But I want ot make some research on that. Also, I brough different canned foods which are low in magnesium. I will also add some Vitamin C to acidify the food or add some raw chicken. Any other idea? Patricia > >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) > > >Published data is clear that > >dissolutionof struvites requires a range of 5.9-6.1, prevention of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > list I belong to. I would imagine it would be quite hard to get the proper PH > in a commercial diet where you're adding things in to get it balanced. >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) >well today I cooked my first chicken broth EVER. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Patricia Sounds good, Patricia. I'm also in the cat group on Yahoo and I think you've gotten some really good advice there. How's Farfou doing today? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm I think that Farfou is doing better in general, but not on the eating department. I "cheat" with tuna juice, so that he eats some of the chicken broth. And with some Hill's gravy to help him eating some of his prescription food. I also give him some Hill's c/d dry, he LOVES dry food. In total he probably had like 5 - 10 table spoons chicken broth, 1/2 - 1/3 of a canned food, some raw chicken and maybe 10 dry food 'granules' (don't know how to call these things). If I can not have him eating more by the end of the week, I'll go back to Petguard and Wellness, I think. I may also try to give him some Waltham. Is it bettter than Hill's? Thank you for your assistance and caring. Patricia > >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) >I think that Farfou is doing better in general, but not on the eating >department. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Patricia Hi Patricia, I don't know anything about Waltham versus Hill's. My personal opinion is I would like to see Farfou on a good raw diet long term. Even if he will eat the Hill's, it is only a bandaid and Farfou could very well experience a return of the crystals. I will email you a link for a good diet and switching tips. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > well today I cooked my first chicken broth EVER. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Patricia Patricia, I hope you are discussing these changes with your vet. It is impossible to add enough vitamin C to a cats diet to move the urine pH even a 10th of a point. It's sounds logical and makes a great "old wives tale", but it simply does not work. Neither does the use of cranberry powder etc, none of which have been shown to change the urine pH anywhere near enough to accomplish anything of value. I do hope you are discussing this with your vet. > >From: eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Where did you get your figures from? From my file of old IVD Product Guides going back many years. > >Published data is clear that > >dissolutionof struvites requires a range of 5.9-6.1, prevention of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and we've never experiencing any kind of urinary problems, nor on the feeding > list I belong to. LOL - Sure I believe that. > >Of course there is always the sodium solution. Load the food up with > >so much sodium that the urine pH is no longer an issue. One company [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > me to believe what you, a Hill's petfood employee, says about other companies. > Know what I mean? Your problem Lauren is that you don't like facts that are posted here in opposition to your theories. I would suggest you call IVD and ask them for the sodium level in the Dissolutionin Gravy product. (DMB basis) When it was initially launched it was much higher than the 1.3% it is today, they apparently took too much heat for high sodium and changed the product to a 1.3% sodium product. That is the level they are claiming in the IVD Product Guide issued at the North American Veterinary Conference in Orlando FL in Jan and again as of last week at the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine. It is their own product information sheets. So call them and get the answer directly from them. One of these day Lauren you will learn not to challenge facts I post here, they are always based upon printed published materials. Every time you have done so, you have lost the argument. It's one thing to dislike the facts - I really don't care one way or the other, it's another thing to stand on the beach and shovel sand against the tide - which is what you are doing when you challenge the facts. eodemolay@cox.net (Steve Crane) wrote in message > In contrast the Prescription Diet products c/d, w/d, t/d, etc are held > to a narrow range of 6.2-6.4 pH. Hmmm, I feed my cat t/d, the dental food, because a little bit cleans out the wet food, or so I think. But if it's a low pH, that could be good. But not too much, since a low pH 6.2-6.4 is not so hot in the long run, yes? Now I see the Hill's Oral Care also has the seal on it, as the t/d does, meaning it did something with improving or preventing whatever with teeth. What is the pH of Oral Care, the non-prescription food? I gather it probably has a normal pH of 7.0, or a neutral would be the accurate word, neither acidic nor basic. What is the w/d? That's not the one for weight reduction, that's r/d? What's the pH of that? It's really hard to get all this detailed info. IF you work for Hill's and can get this info, then fine. It's discouraging that lots of companies won't give out the details, sometimes, not even the kcal content as the new Newman organic fcat food. Or if they do, I have to convert and do all sorts of gymnastics. And one of them, I showed their figures to be wrong, just going by dry and wet food percentages, they said they would get back to me. That's scary when their own numbers are not correct. At least Hill's has enough info that I can work everything out to grams if I have to and know the kcal and Ca and P proportions. circa 16 Jun 2004 20:42:32 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Tree Line (treeline12345@yahoo.com) said, > What is the w/d? That's not the one for weight reduction, that's r/d? > What's the pH of that? http://www.hillspet.com/owner/owner_prescription_diet.jsp Information on their non-prescription foods is also available on the site. Laura  SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >>IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output >>pH. > >Got anything to back up this wild statement? As a matter of fact, I do. Why are you interested? Do your cats have struvite problems?? >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) >>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >struvite >problems?? Nope, my cats have never had urinary tract problems. But I do have a friend who's Persian kitty does. Can you provide the information then to back up your statement? Perhaps it will be helpful to her??? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) >Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of >antioxidants. Whenever cooking food at very high temps, it's always a good idea to add vitamins that are lost in the cooking process back in, which all pet food companies do. But what good is what Hill's does if the OP's cat won't even eat it? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output pH. > Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of > antioxidants. As for switching to a raw diet, check with your vet first. sorry, but I didn't understand your point - english not being my first language. What do you mean whith all over the place? And high level of antioxidants should be good correct? So you would go with Hill's, is that what you mean? Patricia > >He is supposed to eat Hill's C/D, but until this morning, where I > >could get the fish flavor, he almost didn't touch it. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of > antioxidants. As for switching to a raw diet, check with your vet first. circa 10 Jun 2004 11:49:36 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Patricia (over@mindspring.com) said, > > IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output pH. > > Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of > > antioxidants. As for switching to a raw diet, check with your vet first. > > sorry, but I didn't understand your point - english not being my first language. > What do you mean whith all over the place? He means that the pH of the cats' urine ranges from high to low, instead of remaining consistent. With that said, he's a bit of a psycho, which is why he's killfiled by many. > And high level of antioxidants should be good correct? Yes. > So you would go with Hill's, is that what you mean? Having seen only what you quoted of his post, I'd guess that that is what he means. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >From: Laura R. >> What do you mean whith all over the place? > >He means that the pH of the cats' urine ranges from high to low, >instead of remaining consistent. With that said, he's a bit of a >psycho, which is why he's killfiled by many. Oh, good grief, Laura. You're killfiled by many as well. At the risk of you going off topic, I'd like to see any evidence that you can provide showing me to be "a bit of a psycho". My opinions aren't liked by many here, because I defend Hill's and I'm quite knowledgable about them. Some have taken offense to me when I set the record straight at times, but you can't please everybody. <shrug >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) >> IVD's products tend to be all over the map when it comes to urinary output >pH. >> Not to mention the fact that Hill's c/d now has very high levels of >> antioxidants. As for switching to a raw diet, check with your vet first. >sorry, but I didn't understand your point - english not being my first >language. >What do you mean whith all over the place? >And high level of antioxidants should be good correct? > >So you would go with Hill's, is that what you mean? Patricia, please don't listen to Gaubster. He knows nothing about feline nutrition and is a shill for Hill's. Go with the IVD if that is what your vet recommends ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >Patricia, please don't listen to Gaubster. He knows nothing about feline >nutrition and is a shill for Hill's. Go with the IVD if that is what your >vet >recommends And Lauren is a Hill's Hater from way back. She bashes Hill's every chance she gets and as a result doesn't like me since I will defend Hill's. Interestingly enough, she is recommending IVD over Hill's when it's been demonstrated (for example) in this thread that Hill's has the better product. As for knowing "nothing about feline nutrition", Lauren (once again) you couldn't be more wrong! ;) >From: over@mindspring.com (Patricia) >sorry, but I didn't understand your point - english not being my first >language. >What do you mean whith all over the place? >And high level of antioxidants should be good correct? > >So you would go with Hill's, is that what you mean? I mean that the IVD products have a wide range of urinary pH output. Yes, high levels of antioxidants are good! I would recommend Hill's over IVD every time. Hill's does infinitely more research than IVD and a vet friend of mine says that the Hill's products are much more palatable, too. |
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