Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2004
Advice needed
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H. Barker - 07 Jun 2004 15:06 GMT Hi all,
Okay, let me start by introducing our cat, Mina.
She is, we think, about 2-3 years old. She turned up as a stray, eating the hedgehogs food, last summer. We shooed her off for a bit, but eventually caved - she was painfully thin. A couple of weeks passed, and we saw her feeding four kittens. To cut a very long story short, with the help of a superb local rescue home, Newmarket Cats, we captured mum and kittens and they took them on board to feed them up and rehome the babies. Eventually, we took mum back and have had her since about September.
I want to make one thing perfectly clear here and now: we don't consider ourselves barbarians or cruel people, but we originally had ideas of maybe, just maybe, keeping her as an indoor only cat. We're on a major road, we're bird lovers, and to top it all, we have no real facilities to letting her in at night - we'd have to wait for her to turn up, etc. We also know you're supposed to keep a cat indoors for a while when you first get them so they get used to the area, right? Our intention was not to be cruel, but to be kind. Besides, she wasn't actively seeking to get out... She wasn't pacing by the door, she wouldn't paw or claw the door or windows. She seemed quite content, really. [I know there are mixed opinions about indoor cats, and I know it provokes strong emotions, so I want to avoid a flame war here and now.]
Just recently we decided that she ought to be going outside a bit, I guess it was because if she bolted as a door was opened, we wanted her to trust us enough to come back and not think of it as a desparate bid for freedom. Anyway, we got a cat flap fitted, which we haven't really prepared for her use yet. This was a couple of weeks back.
Since then we've been letting her out into our back garden. The back garden isn't huge, but it's okay. There's a six foot wall at the back all along it. Down the sides are similar walls and hedges. We can *sort of* blockade the sides of the house to prevent her from going out down the sides and by the road, but naturally, being a cat, she'll find a way eventually :) Beyond the wall at the back is a football club car park, the club slightly beyond that. At night a bunch of muppets tear up and down in their cars, so naturally I'd really rather avoid her getting over the wall.
She's already been over the wall once. I'm getting slightly ahead of myself here. The other day she managed to climb up onto the back wall and walked along it, but she got really scared, you could just tell. She was miaowing and looking really terrified, pacing up and down. I went around the back via the club car park and she almost leapt into my arms. She struggled on the way home, but she was okay after a while. Then on the weekend she got onto the wall and jumped down into the car park. She disappeared for ages, the first time she'd been out of the house AND out of sight since we had her, pretty much.
We let her be for about 15 minutes, just to see what she did. In the end my wife went around and she was cowering at the base of the wall miaowing. My wife picked her up and passed her over the wall to me. The rest of that evening she was very affectionate, so we reckon she scared herself a bit.
So we're naturally not the greatest "parents" in the world, and there's probably a load of things we're doing wrong. We're trying, but it's very hard. It's amazing how much stress and tension it puts you under. Since she started going out she's been a different cat; it might only be half an hour a night, near enough, but she wants to go out and when she's in she seems distracted. She wasn't like that before. The problem is that when she's out there, the whole time she's either looking for a way out or she seems to not know what to do or where to go. Sometimes she just wanders up and down sniffing everything, which is fine, and sometimes she just lays under a bush.
I'm really not sure what's for the best. Should we just shove her out, lock the door and let her do her own thing? Should we sit with her outside and still prevent her from "escaping"? I mean, there's a million things we could be doing, but I'm damned if I know what to do for the best. It's a nightmare, it really is. I'm terrified of her going out on the road. And I don't want to keep her in all the time if she doesn't want to be in, but generally she seems fine about being in. The fact that her temperament has changed since she started going out is a cause for concern simply because she hasn't been, in my opinion, as affectionate and avoids us both more than she used to.
So if anyone has any advice, suggestions or helpful words, please, feel free to send them my way.
Thanks,
H
Cathy Friedmann - 07 Jun 2004 15:22 GMT Well, I'm in the U.S., so my take will likely be different than that of many in the UK; people here have inside & in/outside cats. My cats are 100% indoor cats because of the traffic: one of city's the main streets - though residential, is about 75 feet in front of my house. My neighbor's cats are allowed outside, but one of her cats was killed by a car in the street in front of her house when he was 2 years old. Across the street, another neighbor's cat is inside-only. Personally, considering that there's parking lot behind your house, I would keep her inside.
Otoh, I don't think houses in the UK tend to have window screens, as we do: my cats can sit on open window sills & look out, & get some fresh air, but a screen prevents them from jumping or falling out; well, from spring to fall, at least. (I'm in the NE - way too cold for open windows in the winter.) Also, I'm lucky in that I have a large floor-to-ceiling screened-in porch, which the cats can also enjoy.
Some people make a screened enclosure for their cats; or else buy ready-made ones which have been coming on the market lately - adjacent to the house & reached via a cat-flap.
Cathy
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > H Mary - 07 Jun 2004 15:47 GMT > Hi all, > > Okay, let me start by introducing our cat, Mina. She sounds lovely and you sound lovely because many people would have opted to keep a kitten and abandon the mama to the shelter. I would keep her in, and provide her with cat seats at screened windows so that she can enjoy the outdoors without the dangers. It is not cruel at all. She will feel safe because she will BE safe. She sounds to me like she wants to be inside. In your well-meaning waffling, you may have confused her. You will both be happier if you keep her in.
Bless you for helping her and her babies!
kaeli - 07 Jun 2004 16:28 GMT In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.1040607150558.11375K-100000 @libra.cus.cam.ac.uk>, hb239@cam.ac.uk enlightened us with...
> I'm really not sure what's for the best. Should we just shove her out, > lock the door and let her do her own thing? Should we sit with her outside [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So if anyone has any advice, suggestions or helpful words, please, feel > free to send them my way. Well, I live in the States, so take this with the appropriate amount of salt. :)
Keep her inside. She's safe, she won't get hit by a car, she will *feel* safe, you will feel she's safe, and she'll feel your calm. If she really *wants* to go out, you can go out with her. Cats can be trained to walk on harness if you're worried she'll get away from you. You might also build her an enclosure if you've a mind. Large, fenced on all sides and top, with plenty of grass and some wood and things to climb on. If she's out for any length of time, put water out, too.
It sounds to me, though, that she likes being inside, yet thinks she's supposed to go outside, so she does, even though she doesn't really want to. Trust me, cats can be very happy indoors if you give them things to play with, a window to watch out of, and lots of love. In the States, it is not at all considered cruel to keep cats inside all the time as long as they have lots of stimulation to keep them happy. Once you make the decision to keep her in, I bet she'll feel more settled and will return to her "normal" personality. Cats feel our stress even when they don't know the cause.
Good luck - keep us posted.
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Laura R. - 07 Jun 2004 16:32 GMT circa Mon, 7 Jun 2004 15:06:37 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, H. Barker (hb239@cam.ac.uk) said,
> The fact that her temperament has > changed since she started going out is a cause for concern simply because [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So if anyone has any advice, suggestions or helpful words, please, feel > free to send them my way. The greatest kindness you can do for this cat, IMO, is to keep her indoor-only. As you said, until you started letting her out, she was quite content to be indoors. I'd go back to when she was content. And safe.
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Cat Protector - 07 Jun 2004 16:44 GMT I would get this cat to use a leash and harness. This would keep her safe and still allow her outside. To get her used to it put on the harness and allow her to walk around the house in it for a few minutes each day for about a week or so. Then attach the leash so she can get used to that too. Then when it looks like she is ready allow her to go outside in both the leash and harness.
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> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > H Karen Chuplis - 08 Jun 2004 01:24 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > H I know you are in the UK, but maybe you could rig up something like this on your wall. She can have a safe place and you won't have to worry so much:
http://www.catfencein.com/
Karen
Annie Wxill - 08 Jun 2004 03:03 GMT > Hi all, > > Okay, let me start by introducing our cat, Mina. ...
> I'm really not sure what's for the best. Should we just shove her out, > lock the door and let her do her own thing? Should we sit with her outside [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > H Our cats are mostly indoors. We let them outside into the fenced back yard when we are home. We don't have a pet door because we want control of when they are in and out. They only are allowed to go out one door, and they know to stay when we open the door until we tell them it is O.K. We keep a pretty good eye on them, but sometimes they go over the six-foot fence. Fortunately, we have understanding neighbors. Cinder will come back when we call her. She is the one who goes outside most often. Rosie is a former feral and had no interest in going out until recently. The problem we have is that she and Cinder still don't trust each other and Cinder will chase Rosie back inside if she comes out when Cinder is there. So, Rosie doesn't get as much of an opportunity to get out. I think you are trying to do what you think is best for your cat. You are learning as you go. That is how we all figure it out. You don't need to be so hard on yourself. Because you recognize that there is a dangerous situation on the other side of your fence, and Mina is jumping over, it probably would be a good idea to stay with her when she is outside. Maybe she would be O.K. with a harness and leash. I don't think that shutting her outside is a good idea. Maybe you could install some kind of motion alarm or sprinkler that would go off when she gets near the fence. After some training time, she might just stay in the yard. Or maybe you could just keep her inside, since she doesn't seem to mind and she is more affectionate when she is an indoors cat. Good luck with your efforts. You did a great thing by rescuing Mina and her kittens and then giving her a loving home. I think Mina is lucky to be in your care. Annie
minerva nine - 08 Jun 2004 03:30 GMT My advice is to keep her inside at all times. It's not cruel, it's the best thing for her. -- M9
> Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > H H. Barker - 08 Jun 2004 08:36 GMT Hi guys,
Thanks EVERSO much for all your replies - you've all been very supportive and most helpful.
However, as my incredibly doubting wife pointed out, the replies have all been kinda one sided, and all, apparently, from the other side of the pond. Not that I am saying they aren't valid. Believe me, I think you're all spot on.
If anyone else has any thoughts, please shout.
She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off me, which is odd. I suppose you are all right, that it's just that she can sense my unease. At least, I hope that's what it is :)
Thanks all,
H
Sherry - 08 Jun 2004 10:48 GMT >Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >H I'm still on the other side of the pond, but I've had both strictly indoor, and now indoor-outdoor cats. We used to live in the city, and the cats stayed indoors. Honestly, cats just adapt. They're happy indoors. There's nothing wrong with keeping them in, they certainly don't suffer. Open windows, sunshine, and cat trees/toys are a must, IMO, though. We since moved, and they can go out at will now. They do, when the weather's nice, but still spend much more time inside. What's really interesting is, we took in a starving stray a few months ago. She won't even stick her nose outside. She knows the outside life isn't what it's cracked up to be and wants no part of it.
Sherry
Cheryl - 09 Jun 2004 02:06 GMT In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", Jun 2004:
> What's really interesting is, we took in a starving stray a few > months ago. She won't even stick her nose outside. She knows the > outside life isn't what it's cracked up to be and wants no part > of it. That has been Bonnie, too. Up until now. Now she sits by the upstairs door that goes out to the deck and howls the biggest meow I've heard from her since she came to me. I know she doesn't want to go out, because she will have no parts of the outdoor enclosure except for a few minutes of sitting in the open flap when I prop it open, and maybe taking a step or two out, and only if Shamrock is out there. I'm not sure what her vocalizing is about lately but I wonder if sometimes people confuse this type of behavior with thinking the cat wants *out*?
 Signature Cheryl
Sherry - 09 Jun 2004 02:37 GMT >That has been Bonnie, too. Up until now. Now she sits by the upstairs >door that goes out to the deck and howls the biggest meow I've heard [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >sometimes people confuse this type of behavior with thinking the cat >wants *out*? I agree, she's probably communicating. But I wonder *what* she's communicating?
Biskit will follow me outside when I go out to water, etc. But she follows me around yowling her head off and beats it back to the door as soon as she sees me start toward the house. I finally figured it out. She doesn't want out. She wants *me* to come back inside. Sherry
Laura R. - 09 Jun 2004 06:42 GMT circa 09 Jun 2004 01:37:09 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry (sriddles@aol.comkitty) said,
> Biskit will follow me outside when I go out to water, etc. But she follows me > around yowling her head off and beats it back to the door as soon as she sees > me start toward the house. I finally figured it out. She doesn't want out. She > wants *me* to come back inside. > Sherry That's how Jacob is when I take a bath (as I've mentioned). He will, quite literally, try to pull me out of the bathtub by my hand (which obviously doesn't happen). The first couple of times he had his wowling fits when I was taking a bath, I thought he wanted to jump in. However, like Biskit, I think he wants me *out*. It's really pretty cute. :-)
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
MadHatter - 09 Jun 2004 07:18 GMT
>circa 09 Jun 2004 01:37:09 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry >(sriddles@aol.comkitty) said, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Laura i wonder if my kitty wants me to eat with her when she calls me to the kitchen, where her food is, so that she can eat with me there. :)
-L
Laura R. - 09 Jun 2004 08:33 GMT circa Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:18:00 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, MadHatter (orlies@hotmail.com) said,
> i wonder if my kitty wants me to eat with her when she calls me to the > kitchen, where her food is, so that she can eat with me there. :) But of course! Doesn't everybody's cat do that? ;-)
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
hpickering@austin.rr.com - 09 Jun 2004 13:46 GMT >circa Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:18:00 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, >MadHatter (orlies@hotmail.com) said, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Laura No, my tuxedo likes to eat alone. He'll eat when the other two are finished. If I walk into the room he gives me the why are you disturbing me look ad walk away. When I leave he comes back to the food. He has always done that ever since I got him as a foundling. If he doesn't like the food offering he will try to bury it. One time he brought TP from the bathroom and piled it on top of the food bowl. I never bought that flavor of food again. I can't afford the TP expense.
Laura R. - 10 Jun 2004 01:23 GMT circa Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:46:15 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, hpickering@austin.rr.com (hpickering@austin.rr.com) said,
> He has always done that ever since I got him as a foundling. > If he doesn't like the food offering he will try to bury it. > One time he brought TP from the bathroom and piled it on top of the > food bowl. I never bought that flavor of food again. I can't afford > the TP expense. A cat we had when I was a kid used to steal Barbie clothes and put them in his food bowl. He also chewed the hands and feet off of all the Barbie dolls, however, so maybe he was just a perv. ;-)
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Cathy Friedmann - 09 Jun 2004 03:04 GMT > What's really interesting is, we took in a starving stray a few months ago. She > won't even stick her nose outside. She knows the outside life isn't what it's > cracked up to be and wants no part of it. > > Sherry That was my Debbie Cat. She was found as an approx. 10 month old stray, in a NE February, starving & pregnant, in '86. She loved going out on the screened porch in the summers, but otherwise had no apparent desire to sample the great outdoors ever again.
Cathy
Mary - 09 Jun 2004 20:12 GMT >>She knows the outside life isn't what >> it'scracked up to be and wants no part of it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That was my Debbie Cat. She was found as an approx. 10 month old stray, in > a NE February, starving & pregnant, in '86. Same with Sweet Cheeks. She ran out the front door her first week here and when I screamed (busy road out front) she just circled the azaleas and ran in the front door when I ran out. She has never since tried to exit. She does love sitting in her windows esp. the upstairs ones which are screened.
Mary - 08 Jun 2004 15:33 GMT > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off > me, which is odd. *Sigh*
H. Barker - 08 Jun 2004 15:56 GMT > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off > > me, which is odd. > > *Sigh* Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really.
The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I.
Sorry for trying your patience :)
H
kaeli - 08 Jun 2004 16:16 GMT In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.1040608155513.29517K-100000 @draco.cus.cam.ac.uk>, hb239@cam.ac.uk enlightened us with...
> Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, > and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really. Just smack her with a fish. *eg*
> The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. We use screen doors in the States. A little door with a screen that goes on the outside of the main door to keep bugs out but let air in. Do you have a screen door?
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H. Barker - 08 Jun 2004 16:26 GMT > > The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. > > We use screen doors in the States. A little door with a screen that goes > on the outside of the main door to keep bugs out but let air in. > Do you have a screen door? Nope, we don't, but I'd consider that if I knew where to get one in the UK. Worth a thought, though, thanks.
KellyH - 08 Jun 2004 18:22 GMT > > > The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > > > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nope, we don't, but I'd consider that if I knew where to get one in the > UK. Worth a thought, though, thanks. I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but if you don't have screens on the doors and windows, how do you keep flying insects out of your house? If I didn't have screens on my windows and doors, I would have bees, mosquitos, flies, wasps, and who knows what else in here.
I have a couple former strays, and they all seem content to stay inside. They never even make a motion for the door. It's the cat that I've had since he was a kitten that always wants to go out.
I think a screened-in area for your cat would be the best solution. Something like this: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?Ne=40000&N=2002+113262
There are lots of different options. Not sure if they deliver to the UK, though.
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Laura R. - 08 Jun 2004 23:19 GMT circa Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:22:26 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, KellyH (Kelly@whatever.com) said,
> I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but if you don't have screens on the > doors and windows, how do you keep flying insects out of your house? If I > didn't have screens on my windows and doors, I would have bees, mosquitos, > flies, wasps, and who knows what else in here. Screens are rare here in NYC, and the short answer is, you don't keep flying insects out. I've seen more wildlife in this city than on my uncle's farm, and most of it looks like what I'd expect around Chernobyl.
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Ellie Pea - 09 Jun 2004 08:15 GMT >> > > The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer >without [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >There are lots of different options. Not sure if they deliver to the UK, >though. I live in a city in the north east of Scotland and apart from the very occasional wasp or bee, don't really get many flyling insects in the house and I am most definitely a window opener!
Besides, it's the cat's job to keep the bugs under control in the house. How else would she earn her keep? :o)
Mary - 09 Jun 2004 20:16 GMT > I live in a city in the north east of Scotland and apart from the very occasional wasp or bee, don't really get many flyling insects in the house and I am most definitely a window opener!
I was just in Paris in the early spring, same there, and same in Florence and other places in Italy. At first I was appalled that there were no screens then I noticed there were no mosquitos etc.
Mary - 08 Jun 2004 16:39 GMT > Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, > and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really. Your wife is wrong because your cat could easily be hit on the busy road and killed. It is simple. The cat is the only one who is really in the no-win situation.
> The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. Why must you open the door? Is it for ventilation? I know they may not be in vogue, but surely screened doors do exist in the UK, right?
> Sorry for trying your patience :) It just seems to me that the UK's knee-jerk "cats MUST be outside" is just as bad as the US's knee-jerk "cat's CANNOT be outside (even when in a relatively safe, low-traffic area. And I don't understand why your wife would wish to endanger an animal she loves. Or doesn't she?
H. Barker - 08 Jun 2004 16:49 GMT > It just seems to me that the UK's knee-jerk "cats MUST be outside" is just > as bad as the US's knee-jerk "cat's CANNOT be outside (even when in a > relatively safe, low-traffic area. And I don't understand why your wife > would wish to endanger an animal she loves. Or doesn't she? I agree totally, but my wife really does only have the cats best interests at heart, and I guess us Brits are just "cats must be outside" as you say. Personally I honestly believe that they should be indoors or outdoors with supervision, but it's a tough call.
I would like to hear from more Brits on their opinions, simply to know what they think, but everyone's info has been really great.
I dare say I'll be flustered again tomorrow after another night of her going out. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
And I'll definitely look into screens, cheers.
H
kaeli - 08 Jun 2004 17:12 GMT In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.1040608164654.4629T-100000 @draco.cus.cam.ac.uk>, hb239@cam.ac.uk enlightened us with...
> And I'll definitely look into screens, cheers. I found these. http://www.premier-env.co.uk/fly%20screens1.htm
http://www.zencatalog.com/PestControl/pest_control_store_DIY_fly_screen_ windows_and_doors__71.html
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Ellie Pea - 08 Jun 2004 18:41 GMT >> It just seems to me that the UK's knee-jerk "cats MUST be outside" is just >> as bad as the US's knee-jerk "cat's CANNOT be outside (even when in a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >H I live in the UK and I class my cat as an indoor kitty.
I have a cat flap, she can go out if she wants, she chooses to spend 95% of her time indoors. Sometimes she sits with just her nose out of the flap, sometimes she ventures all the way out but never for very long, usually 10 or 15 mins. Now the weather is a bit nicer, she seems more interested in going out and chasing bugs in the back garden at night. I live pretty near the city centre but in a very quiet residential area with very little traffic and my block has an enclosed back garden. I am happy to let her go out if she wishes but would never force her out or lock her out!
A friend of mine lives in a house and, when she is at home, lets her cat out into her enclosed back garden and leaves the back door open. Obviously not in bad weather but then her cat is happy to stay in when it's wet and windy. :o) This works for her cat who doesn't seem bothered to venture far. She can roll in the grass, sun herself and chase bugs...the cat, not my friend :o)
I have another friend who lives right on the edge of town, her garden backs onto fields and her 4 cats come and go as they please through her cat flap.
Two girls I work with have happy healthy cats who spend their whole lives indoors because they live in city centre flats with no realistic means of letting them out safely.
I know lots of people in the UK will say to you ' oh, I couldn't have a cat if I couldn't let it out' and 'it's cruel to keep a cat in' excuse my language here but quite frankly, they are talking out of their arses!!!! ;o)
It's up to *you* to decide what is the best for *your* cat depending on *your* circumstances. Try introducing the cat flap. If it's a lockable one, you can control her coming and goings and it may be a happy medium between out and in.
Good luck with what ever you decide!
Lindsey
Cat Protector - 08 Jun 2004 20:26 GMT I have to wonder how many here have a false sense of security by saying that their neighborhood gets very little traffic? All it takes is one car or possibly a bad human to end a cat's life. The best thing you can do is keep your cats indoors where they will be safer. Or if you simply must have your cat go outdoors then do so under CLOSE supervision. Also, a leash and harness is an even better idea than that because you'll know they'll be safe outdoors.
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> I live in the UK and I class my cat as an indoor kitty. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Lindsey kaeli - 08 Jun 2004 21:00 GMT > I have to wonder how many here have a false sense of security by saying that > their neighborhood gets very little traffic? All it takes is one car or > possibly a bad human to end a cat's life. Or a loose dog (or a confined dog, but the cat goes onto its property), a coyote (north america only), an accidental fall, accidental ingestion of toxins, another roaming cat, bobcats and lynx (northern states and canada only), etc... There is plenty of trouble to be found for the adventurous cat who roams unattended no matter where they live.
Some people think the risks are worth the benefits. Personally, I don't agree.
Some cats _do_ get on just fine, of course. My aunt's cats went outside all the time when she lived in a rural area. They made it to 20 years of age, both of them. The barn cats that got eaten by a coyote a few months ago at the ripe old ages of 9 and 7 weren't so lucky. It's like gambling with your cat's life, to me anyway.
I still wonder why the people who think it's perfectly fine to let cats roam free think that dogs should be leashed or behind a gate. I've yet to get a satisfactory answer to that.
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Sherry - 08 Jun 2004 22:20 GMT >I still wonder why the people who think it's perfectly fine to let cats >roam free think that dogs should be leashed or behind a gate. I've yet >to get a satisfactory answer to that. Well, mostly because dogs have a better ability to injure people, a better chance of causing serious accidents, and such. Dogs also will cause injury to livestock. Yeah, I think dogs should be behind a gate, but never on a chain. Dogs should also be taken out of the fence and given some freedom, even if it's on a leash, daily.
Sherry
Yngver - 09 Jun 2004 16:27 GMT >>I still wonder why the people who think it's perfectly fine to let cats >>roam free think that dogs should be leashed or behind a gate. I've yet [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it's >on a leash, daily. IMO, just as with cats, it depends on the situation. When we lived in a rural area, neither the cats nor the dogs were confined by fences or leashes. So again, if you live in an area where it is safe to do so, and doesn't bother the neighbors, I can't see a real reason to keep a dog confined. Of course, our dogs didn't bother the livestock.
In urban areas, as with cats, it would be a bit difficult to find a situation in which it would be appropriate to allow a dog to roam. And to be honest, I see far more dead dogs on city highways than I do cats, so either these are stray dogs or there are plenty of people who don't keep city dogs behind gates or on leashes.
Sherry - 09 Jun 2004 16:55 GMT >IMO, just as with cats, it depends on the situation. When we lived in a rural >area, neither the cats nor the dogs were confined by fences or leashes. So >again, if you live in an area where it is safe to do so, and doesn't bother >the Just plain common sense, of course. There are plenty of good farm dogs that don't need a fence. But there's always the idiots who allow their dogs to romp and stomp all over the country killing chickens and chasing cattle.
Sherry
Yngver - 08 Jun 2004 22:34 GMT >I live in the UK and I class my cat as an indoor kitty. > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Good luck with what ever you decide! A very sensible reply. The OP is right to consider the U.S. bias towards keeping cats indoors---in this post, although you (Lindsey) classify your cat as indoor cat because she spends most of her time indoors, most people in the U.S. would label her an indoor/outdoor cat because she can go outside if she desires. And some would warn you they don't think that is safe--but you are right, it's up to the OP to decide what is safe. As evidenced in this thread, some in the U.S. over-imagine the risks to U.K. cats that set foot outdoors.
I myself advocate providing safe outdoor access when possible; in some parts of the U.S. that may mean leash and harness, cat proof fencing or enclosure, but I think those options are less common in the U.K. The OP mentioned "outdoors with supervision," an option often overlooked in the U.S. as well, but that's also a possibility. Our cats go out in our backyard but only while we are there with them.
There are a variety of options that range between keeping a cat confined indoors 24/7 and letting the cat roam the countryside at will.
Laura R. - 09 Jun 2004 06:43 GMT circa Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:41:21 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Ellie Pea (elliepeaSPAM@hotmail.com) said,
> I live in the UK and I class my cat as an indoor kitty. <snip>
> I know lots of people in the UK will say to you ' oh, I couldn't have > a cat if I couldn't let it out' and 'it's cruel to keep a cat in' > excuse my language here but quite frankly, they are talking out of > their arses!!!! ;o) There you go! Show that to your wife! :-)
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Mary - 09 Jun 2004 04:43 GMT > > It just seems to me that the UK's knee-jerk "cats MUST be outside" is just > > as bad as the US's knee-jerk "cat's CANNOT be outside (even when in a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > H I understand. But if you post later that your dear cat was hit and killed or mangled, I am going to want to kill myself. (Hyperbole, yes, but really. She could be killed.)
Gandalf - 25 Nov 2004 05:09 GMT >> Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, >> and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >relatively safe, low-traffic area. And I don't understand why your wife >would wish to endanger an animal she loves. Or doesn't she? I'll stick with simple science. Outside, depending on location, there are: round worms, flat worms, hook worms, fleas, ticks, chiggers, ear mites, lung flukes, liver flukes, FeLuk, FIV, FIP, more viruses and infectious bacteria than I can possibly remember, mange, automobiles, dogs, other aggressive cats, people who hate cats, etc., etc., etc.
The simple fact is, indoor cats live longer; some vets say as much as twice as long. And isn't a long, healthy life just about the best thing you can do or you cat?
Yes, many cats *love* to be outdoors. And if you have a safe, secure area, free of other animals with possibly disease causing organisms, (as much as possible; like a well fenced yard) supervised outdoor time is relatively safe.
But you have said your area *isn't* safe, you cat has gotten over the fence, and seems *happier* (or at least more friendly, which would indicate to me she feels happy) when she's kept indoors. While she may be very curious about the great OUT, it sounds to me like it scares her a great deal.
This seems like a no-brainer to me. Keep her in. Get screens for enough windows to provide the ventilation you need.
Likely, the money you save on vet bills will cover the cost of several screens, and even a screen door, many times over. One injury, or infected wound could easily wind up costing more than some window screens. Vet bills can get very expensive, very quickly.
I volunteered in a vet clinic for a long time. In my regular job I was trained in small animal surgery, (mice, mostly) so working on cats was easy for me. Even kittens seemed big to me.
I can't tell you how many injured cats came through the clinic in a month. Or how many times a month I treated cats for various parasites, abcesses and other infections. It was common for bills to be $200 and up for injury treatment. And this was quite awhile ago.
I am fortunate in that while my cat was allowed outdoors in a fenced back yard for the three years before I adopted her, she displays no interest in going outside now. I live right in the city, on a 41 by 140 foot lot. The street, which is only 25 feet from the front door, isn't too busy, but there is regular traffic.
But she's happy, and healthy; and she's never been sick a day since I got her. And she's begging for some attention right now, which I'm going to go give her.
~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Life without cats would be only marginally worth living." -TC, and the unmercifully, relentlessly, sweet calico kitty, Kenzie.
How you behave towards cats here below determines your status in Heaven. - Robert Heinlein
Life is very difficult. Once you understand that, life becomes easier. -Buddha
Mary - 25 Nov 2004 11:43 GMT > >> Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, > >> and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > Life is very difficult. Once you understand that, life becomes easier. > -Buddha Love your sig, and totally agree with your comments. I think you meant to reply to H. Barker? In any case, nice post.
Marek Williams - 30 Nov 2004 23:52 GMT >I volunteered in a vet clinic for a long time. In my regular job I was >trained in small animal surgery, (mice, mostly) so working on cats was >easy for me. Even kittens seemed big to me. Cat-Boy has been working on his DVM. So far he has operated only on mice and birds.
I'm not sure he's going to make a good vet, though. Up till now his survival rate has been zero.
-- Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Cathy Friedmann - 08 Jun 2004 17:20 GMT > > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. Any screen doors available in the UK? I don't know if they sell them over there at all, or not. Could do a Google... [They're a pretty standard item here - usually come as a storm/screen combo; positioned in front of the regular door(s).]
Cathy
> Sorry for trying your patience :) > > H Cheryl - 09 Jun 2004 02:20 GMT In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", "Cathy Friedmann" <clfr@adelphia.net> artfully composed this message within <news:2im79eFokftpU1@uni-berlin.de> on 08 Jun 2004:
> Any screen doors available in the UK? I don't know if they sell > them over there at all, or not. Could do a Google... [They're > a pretty standard item here - usually come as a storm/screen > combo; positioned in front of the regular door(s).] Plus they can be easily built from scratch with some 2x4's, a roll of screen, and some flat moulding wood material to hold the screen material in place. Add some hinges and even a hook-and-eye hardware or two (one high up, one down low) and you have a screen door. I guess I'd have to see how a doorway and the whole door jam is designed in UK homes to know if it could be placed along with a solid door.
 Signature Cheryl
Laura R. - 09 Jun 2004 06:44 GMT circa Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:20:54 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cheryl (jlhshadow@nospamhotmail.com) said,
> Plus they can be easily built from scratch with some 2x4's, a roll of > screen, and some flat moulding wood material to hold the screen [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > designed in UK homes to know if it could be placed along with a solid > door. Great minds...
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Laura R. - 08 Jun 2004 23:15 GMT circa Tue, 8 Jun 2004 15:56:31 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, H. Barker (hb239@cam.ac.uk) said,
> > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well it's hard because my wife really wants her to get used to going out, > and I don't. I'm in a no-win situation, really. Okay, turn the tables. *Why* does your wife think it is necessary for this cat to go outside? What concrete benefit is it providing to the cat? How is it improving the cat's temperament? How is it making the cat safer? What, exactly, is the benefit that she sees in the cat as a result of going outside, and if she can't list one, then why does she insist upon this? Make her base her statements on observation of the *cat*, not on conclusions drawn upon her own feelings that the cat just "should" go outside.
> The other problem is how do we have the door open in the summer without > her getting out? It may seem obvious to some people, but not I. I don't know about the UK, but in the US, you can get a simple screen door quite economically. If you can't there, it's very easy to build a simple wood frame with a screen in it and hinges on the edge. :-)
> Sorry for trying your patience :) It's not you, it's your wife. :-)
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
Annie Wxill - 08 Jun 2004 18:40 GMT > Hi guys, ...> However, as my incredibly doubting wife pointed out, the replies have all
> been kinda one sided, and all, apparently, from the other side of the > pond. Not that I am saying they aren't valid. Believe me, I think you're > all spot on. ...
> H Although we may have our own biases, depending on which side of the pond we reside, I think the real issue here is that *it is not the cat* who wants to go out; it is the wife who wants the cat to go out and the husband who says he does not want the cat to go out because he worries about it. I hope this is not becoming a power struggle between the two humans, each professing to be looking out for the cat's best interests, but really using the cat as a pawn in order to win. If that is the case, I suggest that you two settle what is really behind this and stop putting the cat in the middle. As for the cat, if she does not want to go out of her own accord, let her stay inside. If she wants to go out, ease your own mind and make sure she is safe by going with her. If you and your wife can agree to let the cat decide whether she goes in or out, you can agree to take turns keeping an eye on her. That way you each get your way and the cat gets her way, too. And, when the weather is nice, you can just leave the door open, as long as you both agree to keep track of the whereabouts of the cat. Annie
Cat Protector - 08 Jun 2004 20:29 GMT Then the wife needs to be educated. I agree that the cat is an unwitting pawn in a human struggle for power. The cat's best interest needs to be the primary here.
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> Although we may have our own biases, depending on which side of the pond we > reside, I think the real issue here is that *it is not the cat* who wants to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you both agree to keep track of the whereabouts of the cat. > Annie jeannie - 12 Jun 2004 11:37 GMT > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off > me, which is odd. I found that with my cat too. She was really affectionate to the point that she would follow me around the house constantly before she started going out (I kept her in for a month after bringing her home from the shelter, as advised). As soon as she started going out, she became noticably less clingy. My theory was that she just didn't *need* me as much as I wasn't the centre of her whole world anymore. She had other interests outside, eg hunting, socialising with other cats, climbing trees etc, and this made her less clingy as a result. Could be wrong but that was my conclusion.
Jeannie
Mary - 12 Jun 2004 16:59 GMT > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going off [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clingy. My theory was that she just didn't *need* me as much as I wasn't > the centre of her whole world anymore. It makes sense to me now. Anyone who would want their cat to be less affectionate ... why do you even have a cat?
jeannie - 12 Jun 2004 16:43 GMT > > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It makes sense to me now. Anyone who would want their cat to be less > affectionate ... why do you even have a cat? I have a cat because I like cats. She became less clingy, not less affectionate. She also has a life independant of me, which I think is a good thing.on the whole.
Jeannie
Cathy Friedmann - 12 Jun 2004 18:19 GMT > > > She went out again last night for about 45 mins, and since then, again, > > > she's been kinda anti-me. It's weird, it feels almost like she's going [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It makes sense to me now. Anyone who would want their cat to be less > affectionate ... why do you even have a cat? Enjoying having cats is not necessarily dependent upon them being affectionate. A person may admire a cat, for just being a cat - their gracefulness, apparent silliness, relatively independent nature, observing them use their keen senses, etc.
Cathy
Sharon Talbert - 08 Jun 2004 21:17 GMT If you have a wall completely surrounding your property, you might consider cat-proofing that. There is an excellent product called "Cat Fence-In" that would at least give you some ideas.
Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats
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