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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2004Advice needed
kaeli <tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net> sayeth something like; > I still wonder why the people who think it's perfectly fine to let cats > roam free think that dogs should be leashed or behind a gate. I've yet > to get a satisfactory answer to that. I think that dogs are more likely to attack and possibly kill a human and therefore should be chained up or fenced in. I have witnessed a docile freindly dog attack a child without provocation or cause. I think a good dog can turn bad in an instant without any warnings. Cats on the other hand are unlikely to do anyone grievious damage, therefore the mindset of let them run free. When I lived in the country I always let my cats run about outside unattended without any consequences. I now live closer to the city and would never let a cat outside without supervision.(If I still had a cat.) I think it all boils down to personal preferences and to where your home is situated. hth James Marz Born in lust, turn to dust. Born in sin? come on in! - Stephen King In the USA, most experts believe cats should be kept indoors. There are people who disagree with the experts, unfortunately. These people do not understand that: 1) Cats can't read street signs or "Walk"/"Don't Walk" Signs. 2) Cats don't know enough to look both ways before crossing the street. 3) Cats don't know the difference between red & green traffic signals. 4) Dogs & wild animals can injure, maim and kill roaming cats. 5) Cats don't know NOT to ingest poisons. Many times, roaming cats can lap up leaking anti-freeze (from a car). The anti-freeze is tasty and causes cats to convulse and die painfully. There is no cure. Sadly, the makers of the antifreeze have not yet banded together to add an ingredient(s) to make the taste unpleasant. 6)People can be cruel. Some have beaten or killed cats for fun. It's not worth the risk. Just to do the devil's advocate thing: I live in the US, on a quiet, residential one-way street in an urban area. My two cats are indoor/outdoor - they have access to the outdoors during the day and are brought in each evening (they come when I call and every once in a while we have a bit of a chase, but the call of dinner always wins out in the end). I do worry, of course, but they're both doing well. I do think 24 hour outdoor access can be asking for trouble, but not everything needs to be so black and white. One cat, who is hyper and super-intelligent really does need the outside - she goes bezonkers in the house from lack of stimulation and loves being outside. I couldn't bear to take it from her. She only sleeps about 8 hours a day, if that, and she just gets bored inside. The other cat, a former feral, can take or leave the outside, but is happy enough to while away the day chasing butterflies behind her favorite bush. On our block, there are about 8 owned cats that roam around, and all of them come around periodically to interact with my two and they all seem to be doing OK. None of them have dissappeared or gotten hurt and I see them all the time so no - not all US cats live exclusively indoors by any means, although many people, like me, do restrict the outdoor time somewhat. It depends on what your cat wants and needs. They do have different personalities and some are more content as indoor cats than others. You're the best judge of what your cats needs are. The busy street is a problem. Mine rarely cross the street, if ever (they are discouraged from doing so), but when I've seen explorer cat do it (once), she did look to see if any cars are coming. (It's a one way street and not heavily traveled - which helps). My neighborhood is cat-friendly and animal-friendly. Everybody knows the cats and we pet each others when they visit. The only wild animals around - skunks and raccoons - are only an issue at night when my cats are inside. Nothing is guaranteed of course, although it helps knowing that the vast majority of my neighbors WOULD brake for a cat and WOULDN'T leave antifreeze congealed on the pavement, but I know that at least one of my cats would rather live 10 years outside than 20 inside all of the time. She shows me that everyday. (And very forcefully when I have tried to keep her in). It's not the life she wants. And in the end, loving any being is respecting their choices, not just locking them up to keep them safe. She's well-trained, she's bright, I supervise her when I can and the rest of the time I just hope for the best. So far, so good. >Just to do the devil's advocate thing: I live in the US, on a quiet, >residential one-way street in an urban area. I dunno. I read your post and tried to imagine what it's like there...the main hang-up for me is that you described the street as "busy." And that the cats- "rarely cross it. It's a crap shoot, IMO, and the odds aren't in your favor enough that I'd feel comfortable letting them out to roam. It's just that *one time* you look out, and your cat is dead in the road. It only takes one speeding idiot. You have to judge whether you're willing to take that risk. I don't think I would. Secondly, are the other neighborhood cats. FIP is pretty common here, there's really no vaccine for it. I wouldn't want mine hanging around with other people's cats. Just my .02 Sherry No Sherry, I described the street as "not busy". I described it as one-way and not heavily traveled. It was the original poster from England who described their street as busy. And I'm really not very worried about FIP. They've interacted over 100+ times with the ten or so cats in the neighborhood and come home with nary a scratch or a bite. My cats are girls - LOL - they don't fight - they make peace. The cats on the block are my neighbor's owned and collared cats. There are two dogs that run around sometimes, but the cats know them and are friendly with them. (One's a little yappy black dog not much bigger than them and the other is a mellow Golden Retriever). Cats do have speed, the ability to jump in the air, a house to retreat into and sharp claws. They aren't defenseless at all. Am I taking a risk? Sure. Life's a risk. But in the meantime, I have two of the happiest cats that I have ever seen (and I volunteer at a no-kill shelter weekly so I see a lot of cats - mine are profoundly joyful in their freedom). And as I said, one of my cats desperately needs the outside. She leaves me no other choice. (And yes, she has cat trees and perches and a basketful of toys and a companion and none of that occupies her for more than hour or two - she's bright and she's easily bored and she desn't and won't sleep her day away). As worrisome as it is, and I must admit that this group is enough to give a person nightmares, people are so obsessed with violence towards cats and disasters, I think it's the best thing for me and my cats. > As worrisome as it is, and I must admit that this group is enough to > give a person nightmares, people are so obsessed with violence towards > cats and disasters, I think it's the best thing for me and my cats. That is soooo true, Tracy. Although I have received a lot of useful advice here, the tone of the group is all a bit doom and gloom. I am in the UK and I *personally* don't know of anyones cat that has died of anything other than disease or old age and all of these were indoor/outdoor cats. I have also never seen a dead cat at the side of the road and I do a lot of driving with my job so I sort of wonder how common it actually is. To the OP: At the end of the day *you* have to assess how safe your area is and no-one in this group can do that for you. If the boy racers in the football club car park are a problem, keep the cat in at night (I am presuming here that the racers only turn up at night). This will also cut down on the little "presents" AKA "dead mice" your cat will bring you as they mainly hunt at night. As far as the road goes, I don't know, only you can decide how much of a risk it is. Jeannie >That is soooo true, Tracy. Although I have received a lot of useful advice >here, the tone of the group is all a bit doom and gloom. I am in the UK and >I *personally* don't know of anyones cat that has died of anything other >than disease or old age and all of these were indoor/outdoor cats. I have >also never seen a dead cat at the side of the road and I do a lot of driving >with my job so I sort of wonder how common it actually is. Sorry for the "doom and gloom", but there's just not too many uplifting things to say about a dead cat. And if someone in the US tells you they've never seen a dead cat on the road, and never known a cat to die of anything but old age, they are telling you a fairy tale. Sherry > >That is soooo true, Tracy. Although I have received a lot of useful advice > >here, the tone of the group is all a bit doom and gloom. I am in the UK and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sherry Maybe I didn't explain what I meant properly in my original post. My point was that, if you read the posts in this NG on a regular basis, you get the impression that any indoor/outdoor cat will, inevitably, get run over, poisoned, stolen, attacked by a dog, abused by a human or suffer any number of other horrors. In my experience (and obviously I can only comment on that basis) this is just not the case. Although I don't doubt that all of the above do occur, they are not inevitably and in some cases not even likely. Which brings me back to my comment to the OP with regard to the fact that only *he* can decide how safe his area is. If he thinks it's really not safe then he must keep the cat indoor only, if the risks are minimal, let the cat go out. Jeannie > > As worrisome as it is, and I must admit that this group is enough to > > give a person nightmares, people are so obsessed with violence towards [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > also never seen a dead cat at the side of the road and I do a lot of driving > with my job so I sort of wonder how common it actually is. Each has their own personal experiences. My next-door neighbor's first cat died in a car accident on the street out front, a friend's cat also did, one of my niece's cats died because of being hit by a car in the road, & another friend's cat had a broken pelvis due to a traffic accident. Two or three autumns ago on the way into work in the mornings, within a span of 3 weeks, I saw 3 dead cats on the roads - about 6 miles from here. As a result of knowing about & seeing these cat/traffic deaths, I keep my cats indoors, since I live on a residential, yet fairly busy street. > To the OP: At the end of the day *you* have to assess how safe your area is > and no-one in this group can do that for you. If the boy racers in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they mainly hunt at night. As far as the road goes, I don't know, only you > can decide how much of a risk it is. This, I agree with - although educated guesses can be made, no one can really dictate to another how relatively safe or dangerous another person's environment is, & what risks they are willing to take. Cathy circa Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:32:49 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > That is soooo true, Tracy. Although I have received a lot of useful advice > here, the tone of the group is all a bit doom and gloom. I am in the UK and > I *personally* don't know of anyones cat that has died of anything other > than disease or old age and all of these were indoor/outdoor cats. I do. > I have > also never seen a dead cat at the side of the road and I do a lot of driving > with my job so I sort of wonder how common it actually is. I've seen *lots* of them, and I *don't* do a lot of driving. I've seen more than I can count, in fact. Just because you don't like to admit the dangers doesn't mean they don't exist. You're free to do as you like with your cats, but please don't use the fact that you don't know of a cat that was killed as a result of being outdoors as representative of reality- especially here in the U.S. I understand that it's common in the U.K. to let one's cats outside. But I also know that for the most part, the U.K. simply does not have the kind of traffic that we have here in the U.S. Our gas is cheaper, our cars are bigger and faster, and we're a culture obsessed with driving. Even the quietest suburban neighborhood here tends to have wide streets that lend themselves naturally to driving fast, and people *do* drive fast. These same neighborhoods are also highly likely to be within a quarter- to a half-mile from a busy thoroughfare. And frankly, our much larger population means that we have a lot more sociopathic fscks out there who *will* torture cats. That's reality. Laura  SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > To the OP: At the end of the day *you* have to assess how safe your area is > and no-one in this group can do that for you. You bet. But please don't come around moaning if your cat gets run over, poisoned, etc. If it happens, it happens because you let it happen. Period. > You bet. But please don't come around moaning if your > cat gets run over, poisoned, etc. If it happens, it happens because you let > it happen. Period. Mary, I'm not trying to be rude here, and I can absolutely see both sides of the issue. But when you say something like this, my perception is that some of this group is composed of people who come around here moaning of the plethora of serious behavioral problems they are having with their indoor-only and seemingly getting-more-neurotic everyday cats. While I'm lucky to have a reasonable indoor-outdoor option where I live, I also don't have cats with litterbox and elimination problems (mine share one inside litterbox with zero problems and one outdoor gravel area near my garbage cans), inappropriate aggression, incompatibility between cats, scratching problems, overweight, food sensitivites, depression or the need for kitty prozac. It strikes me there can be a connection. I volunteer regularly at a no-kill shelter where the vast majority of the cats are not strays - they are owner surrenders due to behavioral problems like the ones mentioned above. I'm guessing the kill shelters recive the same overflow of cats for the same reasons. So you could say that behavioral problems that some cats experience when they temperamentally want and need some outdoor time and don't get it, is also very dangerous and potentially fatal for some cats. I just don't find the hyperbole all that helpful. There are no black and white answers that apply in every situation. >Mary, I'm not trying to be rude here, and I can absolutely see both >sides of the issue. But when you say something like this, my >perception is that some of this group is composed of people who come >around here moaning of the plethora of serious behavioral problems >they are having with their indoor-only and seemingly >getting-more-neurotic everyday cats. You are absolutely right--on the U.S. side of the issue, the possibility that there are negative aspects of keeping cats confined indoors is seldom considered. Keeping cats indoors 24/7 is often promoted in the U.S. as ideal, and the fact that indoor only cats have a higher incidence of behavioral problems and are more likely to be obese is generally not mentioned in these "keep your cat indoors" promotions. >While I'm lucky to have a reasonable indoor-outdoor option where I >live, I also don't have cats with litterbox and elimination problems [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >problems, overweight, food sensitivites, depression or the need for >kitty prozac. It strikes me there can be a connection. There is a connection. Of course, as usual you will get some responses saying "my cat is indoors and doesn't have behavioral problems." But you are correct that statistically the indoor only cat is more likely to exhibit such problems--which of course means that many don't. >I volunteer regularly at a no-kill shelter where the vast majority of >the cats are not strays - they are owner surrenders due to behavioral [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >temperamentally want and need some outdoor time and don't get it, is >also very dangerous and potentially fatal for some cats. This is a point Dr. Nicholas Dodman, from Tufts University School of Medicine, has made as well. More cats in the U.S. are euthanized for behavioral problems than for terminal conditions, so yes, when a cat exhibits behavioral problems it can indeed become fatal. >I just don't find the hyperbole all that helpful. There are no black >and white answers that apply in every situation. I for one agree completely. Since the OP is in the U.K., I don't understand why some people in this thread are bringing up threats that don't even exist there--is it so ingrained in the heads of some U.S. cat owners that indoors is the only way that they cannot even imagine situations in which it is reasonably safe to have indoor/outdoor cats? >I for one agree completely. Since the OP is in the U.K., I don't understand >why [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >reasonably >safe to have indoor/outdoor cats? IIRC, the original poster says he has a busy street in front, and a car park in the back. It's pretty easy to imagine the cat coming to a bad end. Sherry >>I for one agree completely. Since the OP is in the U.K., I don't understand >>why [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >IIRC, the original poster says he has a busy street in front, and a car park >in the back. It's pretty easy to imagine the cat coming to a bad end. I am sure that some cats in the U.K. get hit by cars. I was thinking more of warnings to those in the U.K. about dangers like coyotes. What's the point? circa 11 Jun 2004 22:09:44 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Yngver (yngver@aol.comnospam) said, > >IIRC, the original poster says he has a busy street in front, and a car park > >in the back. It's pretty easy to imagine the cat coming to a bad end. > > > I am sure that some cats in the U.K. get hit by cars. I was thinking more of > warnings to those in the U.K. about dangers like coyotes. What's the point? Who said that coyotes were a danger to cats in the U.K.? With that said, do you not have dogs in the U.K.? Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >I am sure that some cats in the U.K. get hit by cars. I was thinking more of >warnings to those in the U.K. about dangers like coyotes. What's the point? There isn't one. I've never specifically noticed anyone warning a UK poster re: coyotes, though. I could have missed something, but I would imagine it would simply be a case of someone not realizing a poster is from the UK, or not realizing you all don't have coyotes like we do. Sherry circa 11 Jun 2004 16:01:17 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Yngver (yngver@aol.comnospam) said, > I for one agree completely. Since the OP is in the U.K., I don't understand why > some people in this thread are bringing up threats that don't even exist > there--is it so ingrained in the heads of some U.S. cat owners that indoors is > the only way that they cannot even imagine situations in which it is reasonably > safe to have indoor/outdoor cats? There are- when you walk the cat on a leash. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >circa 11 Jun 2004 16:01:17 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Yngver >(yngver@aol.comnospam) said, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >There are- when you walk the cat on a leash. I don't agree with that. Our cats are leash-trained, but there are places/situations in which it is safe for them to be off-leash. Of course, we are always there with them in those cases, so they are never actually what I consider free-roaming. circa 14 Jun 2004 15:23:46 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Yngver (yngver@aol.comnospam) said, > >> I for one agree completely. Since the OP is in the U.K., I don't understand > >why [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > are always there with them in those cases, so they are never actually what I > consider free-roaming. Which isn't contrary to what I said. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >circa 14 Jun 2004 15:23:46 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Yngver >(yngver@aol.comnospam) said, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >Which isn't contrary to what I said. Okay, I should have said that while our current cats aren't what I'd call free roaming now (but I imagine a lot of people consider a cat outside without a leash to be roaming) I can imagine situations in which it is safe for cats to be free-roaming. When my parents had a farm, connected to a backroad by a long private drive, I considered the cats I had at that time to be perfectly safe to roam if they wanted. As someone else pointed out, they were both spays and weren't interested in doing much roaming--basically stayed in the yard and the garden. But if they wanted to go out in a field they could have. > > You bet. But please don't come around moaning if > >your cat gets run over, poisoned, etc. If it happens, it > > happensbecause you let it happen. Period. > Mary, I'm not trying to be rude here, and I can > absolutely see both sides of the issue. How nice for you. I see both sides, too. The side I am not on goes likethis: cats who go out are free to frolic in the fresh green grass and play with other pretty little kitties and doggies none of whom are diseased or aggressive. They may breathe in the fresh air and enjoy the caresses and greetings of the neighbors, none of whom hate cats or drive too fast or forget to look for cats when they back out of their driveways or turn onto streets. (And perhaps best of all, there is less mess in the cat box for the Noble Humans to clean up.) Be Free God's Creature, Etc. The fact remains that people who allow their cats to roam know full and well that they are leaving them at the mercy of whatever else may be outdoors.REGARDLESS of whether they have actually SEEN dead cats in the street. Theyknow the cats might be killed. And when they are, I don't want to hear about it. Why? Because morons (oops, was that RUDE?) who claim to love cats and yet endanger them and allow them to suffer and die are even worse to me than people who will tell you outright that they hate cats. And I don't want to hear about their great grief when kitty gets her guts splattered on the pavement by a car ora dog. That is what I said and that is what I meant. > But when you say something like this, my perception is >that some of this group is composed of people who >come around here moaning of the plethora of serious >behavioral problems > they are having with their indoor-only and seemingly > getting-more-neurotic everyday cats. Perphaps I can help you with this. The reason my statement makes you think this is because you have a lazy mind and tend toward gross generalizations. Not a very effective way of thinking. Assignment 1: find a single post of mine (Google my email address under "groups, advanced search) in which I talk about a single behavioral problem in my cats. Just one. While you may use another poster as an example of unhappy indoor cats, your attempt to use me as an example was, well, ill advised. > While I'm lucky to have a reasonable indoor-outdoor option where I > live And that you can bear the thought of your "beloved" pets getting slaughterd, too, right? , I also don't have cats with litterbox and elimination problems > (mine share one inside litterbox with zero problems and one outdoor > gravel area near my garbage cans), [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I just don't find the hyperbole all that helpful. There are no black and white answers that apply in every situation. If you allow your cats to roam you endanger them and I don't give a rat's a.s how many shelters you allegedly volunteer at, or what you find helpful. My opinion. You are entitled to your own and I am perfectly tickled that you expressed it. You probably aren't deserving of this level of reply since you insist on hyperbole, but since I do believe in dialogue, even with rude people .... here we go .... > How nice for you. I see both sides, too. The side I am not on goes likethis: > cats who go out are free to frolic in the fresh green grass and play with > other pretty little kitties > and doggies none of whom are diseased or aggressive. They ARE free to frolic in the fresh green grass of my garden and it IS pretty nice out there. I like frolicking out there too. And since I am working from home currently and do supervise them much of the time, I can see who they interact with and yes, the cats and dogs belong to my neighbors and they are neither sick or aggressive. There may be some strays out at night, but my cats are inside. Sorry if that set of facts pisses you off. >They may breathe in the > fresh air and enjoy the caresses and greetings of the neighbors, none of > whom hate > cats or drive too fast or forget to look for cats when they back out of > their driveways or turn onto streets. I know 15 of my neighbors and 12 households have animals of their own and the rest tell me how cute my cats are and are not animal haters. I suppose it's vaguely possible that the cats may one day go further than the 15 households, although they haven't to date, and encounter someone who shoos them away, but I'm inclined to think the likelihood of one of my neighbors disembowling my cat is pretty much the same odds as one of my neighbors being a homicidal murderer and disembowling me one afternoon. I still leave my house despite the fact that I hope this doesn't happen to me. It might. That doesn't mean I should never go out for a walk and if I do, I'm "asking" for it. As for driveways and streets, the cats are rarely in driveways and streets. They travel from yard to yard in the backs of the houses on the block and the cars are parked in front. They're animals. They don't use sidewalks. 95% of the time they are outside (or 99% for the less exploratory cat), they are beyond the reach of motor vehicles of any kind. And the rest of the time, they look. They know what directions the cars come from quite well. > (And perhaps best of all, there is > less mess in the cat box for the Noble Humans to clean up.) Whatever. I have to clean the outside box as well, so it's not really less work for me. I use a pooper-scooper, like you would for a dog. The point was that I don't have to scrub cat urine from my rug or clean up dumps on my living room floor or on my bed, as I hear about so often on here. > The fact remains that people who allow their cats to roam know full and well > that they are leaving them at the mercy of whatever else may be > outdoors.REGARDLESS of whether they have actually SEEN dead cats in the > street. For what it's worth, I did have a family member lose a 4 year old cat to the road. It was very sad and confirmed for me that inside at night is a good idea, because cats are harder to see. He did live in one of those godforsaken American suburbs where every road is a highway with tract homes on each side and people drive everywhere, and those are more difficult neighborhoods for cat safety. A pedestrian-oriented neighborhood is a much safer environment and that's where I live now. Lots of walkers, less cars. And OTOH, I also have a family member with a 16 year old male cat who's had a cat door his whole life. Like everything, you can find an example of just about any scenario somewhere. Personally, I've seen dead people in the street when I lived on the South Side of Chicago (where my cat did not go out without a harness because it wasn't safe), but I have never seen a dead cat in the street. I've only seen roadkill in the country and it was skunks and possums. I've seen dead cats at the shelters where their owners have surrendered them and they are too old to be quickly adopted. > Theyknow the cats might be killed. And when they are, I don't want > to hear about it. Why would anyone tell you anything? Do you tell rape victims they deserved it because they had on a short skirt? What good does that do besides making you feel superior? There's enough people in the world who are capable of empathy for others. I'm sad when people's children die in swimming pool accidents. I don't yell at them that it's their fault. Bad things happen. They don't happen every day or all the time to everyone and when they do, we grieve and then we move on. I've lost people in my life and I've lost animals to disease and it's always painful. There's no inoculation against having creatures we love hurt in this world and it's always sad. > Perphaps I can help you with this. The reason my statement makes you think > this is because you have a lazy mind and tend toward gross generalizations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of unhappy indoor cats, your attempt to use me as an example was, well, ill > advised. Who was talking about you? I'm talking about the group in general. Where there are at least 7-8 litterbox/aggression problems posted weekly. You do a Google search if you don't believe me. I have no recollection about the particulars of your cats one way or the other, nor do I particularly care. It's OK by me if you decide to keep your cats indoor-only. That's between you and them as long as you will take care of them to the end of their lives, no matter what. As I'm sure you will. But the accusations and rudeness are not OK and emotionalism towards cats is simply no excuse, especially directed towards a UK poster. > And that you can bear the thought of your "beloved" pets getting slaughterd, > too, right? Anything that I love, my husband, myself, my mother, my dear friends or my pets can get slaughtered any day of the week. That's reality. We all have to bear it. We have no other choice. > If you allow your cats to roam you endanger them and I don't give a rat's > a.s how many shelters you allegedly volunteer at or what you find helpful" And I don't give a rat's a.s what your opinion is, but how does that help other cat owners make decisions for their cats? It doesn't and that is the point of this group. It isn't advanced by rudeness, hyperbole, moral superiority and insults. And I'm talking about the shelter volunteering, which isn't alleged, because I spend time doing behavioral assistance with troubled cats who were surrendered by their owners - so it won't happen again if they are lucky enough to be adopted out by a new guardian. And I can see why they were surrendered and how hard it is to modify their behavior once they start out on the wrong foot, especially in the very stressful confinement of the shelter environment. It is a real problem. If a cat has litterbox problems or aggression problems, it really can be a death senence should they lose their original home. If we care for cats, then we absolutely have to look at that issue too, and not just mindlessly repeat the same mantra for all cats regardless of individual temperament, individual needs and individual circumstances. >Personally, I've seen dead people in the street when I lived on the >South Side of Chicago (where my cat did not go out without a harness >because it wasn't safe), but I have never seen a dead cat in the >street. I've only seen roadkill in the country and it was skunks and >possums. Whoa. You're saying you live in the US, you've seen dead people in the streets but *never* a dead cat on the road? Ever? > >Personally, I've seen dead people in the street when I lived on the > >South Side of Chicago (where my cat did not go out without a harness [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Whoa. You're saying you live in the US, you've seen dead people in the streets > but *never* a dead cat on the road? Ever? LOL! I'm glad I passed on this one. Really funny. >> >Personally, I've seen dead people in the street when I lived on the >> >South Side of Chicago (where my cat did not go out without a harness [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >LOL! I'm glad I passed on this one. Really funny. Honest, I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. I think the poster has mentioned before she lives in California...I just can't imagine never, ever, seeing a dead cat on the road or street. It's not unusual here. Why would the road mortality rate in CA be so much better than it is where I live? I just can't figure that out. Sherry > >> Whoa. You're saying you live in the US, you've seen dead people in the > streets > >> but *never* a dead cat on the road? Ever? > Honest, I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. I think the poster has mentioned > before she lives in California...I just can't imagine never, ever, seeing a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sherry Hi Sherry, I''ve lived in Northern California for 18 of the past 19 years, and one year on the South Side of Chicago when my husband was doing research at the University of Chicago. If you've never lived on the South Side, then you may not get that it's a neighborhood where people get shot in the middle of the night and yep, I did come across a human corpse one morning in a vacant lot not far from my home. In my urban neighorhood here (or in Chicago for that matter), I never encountered a cat or a dog dead by the side of the road. Haven't seen it. That said, I don't drive all that much - as I said, I don't live in one of those sprawled out suburbs and I do expect it's more common there. > > >> Whoa. You're saying you live in the US, you've seen dead people in the > > streets [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in one of those sprawled out suburbs and I do expect it's more common > there. Not living on the South Side of Chicago - or a place akin to it, I've never come across a dead person in the street. I do not live in suburbia - I live on a city's residential street. However, over the years I've come across dead cats in the road. Some have been killed in city street traffic & others outside of town, in semi-rural to rural areas. Cathy "Tracy" <twrl2001@yahoo.com> wrote . > In my urban neighorhood here (or in Chicago for that matter), I never > encountered a cat or a dog dead by the side of the road. Anyone else thinking maybe we don't have the most observant dog in the pack here? :') circa 12 Jun 2004 08:51:19 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Tracy (twrl2001@yahoo.com) said, > In my urban neighorhood here (or in Chicago for that matter), I never > encountered a cat or a dog dead by the side of the road. Haven't seen > it. That said, I don't drive all that much - as I said, I don't live > in one of those sprawled out suburbs and I do expect it's more common > there. And yet, that's where people usually justify letting their cats outside unsupervised because it's "safe". Interesting, eh? Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >I''ve lived in Northern California for 18 of the past 19 years, and >one year on the South Side of Chicago when my husband was doing >research at the University of Chicago. If you've never lived on the >South Side, then you may not get that it's a neighborhood where people >get shot in the middle of the night and yep, I did come across a human >corpse one morning in a vacant lot not far from my home. I used to work in that area. I will vouch for Tracy that what she is describing is entirely possible. >In my urban neighorhood here (or in Chicago for that matter), I never >encountered a cat or a dog dead by the side of the road. Haven't seen >it. That said, I don't drive all that much - as I said, I don't live >in one of those sprawled out suburbs and I do expect it's more common >there. In some seven years of commuting through that neighborhood I don't recall ever seeing a dead cat or dog lying in the streets or around campus. However, in some eight years of commuting from my own neighborhood in Chicago, I have seen maybe three or four dead cats on city streets. But given the enormous population of feral and stray cats in Chicago, it is possible that none of those few cats that I saw were owned cats, and also given that huge number of cats, it seems fairly obvious that the great majority of them are not getting killed by cars. And as I noted before, I can't recall seeing dead cats on the highways, although I have seen many a dead dog. On city streets, I'd say the leading road kill I see are squirrels, followed by the occasional possum. In our neighborhood, even though it is near some fairly busy streets, most people do let their cats roam, too, so it's not uncommon to see cats around. I've never seen a dead cat in the street in the few blocks around our house, however, yet I keep seeing the same cats for years, so they seem to be beating the oft-quoted prediction that indoor/outdoor cats are only likely to live a couple years. > You probably aren't deserving of this level of reply since you insist > on hyperbole, but since I do believe in dialogue, even with rude > people .... here we go .... Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are unwilling or unable to see anyone elses point of view. They believe that cats should be inside no matter what and cannot seem to comprehend that sometimes it *is* safe for them to go out unsupervised. Their justification for this attitude stems from the all too common and in my opinion unhealthy "zero risk" mentality and as such they imagine dangers and horrors which are *way* out of proportion to the actual reality of the situation. Yes, my cat could get run over, poisoned, beated to death with a fish... Is it likely?...Where I live the answer is No, but it *could* happen so in their opinion I should keep her inside all the time. There really is no point arguing with these people as you are polar opposites and will never change each others minds on the subject. Disagreeing with Mary is especially futile, as she just lets rip with her "I'm a hard bitch" routine and the usual volley of insults and abuse, my advice is you just have to agree to differ. Jeannie circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:01:18 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find > that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "I'm a hard bitch" routine and the usual volley of insults and abuse, my > advice is you just have to agree to differ. And as far as I can tell, the sole point of your post was to generate more discord. Nice. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde "Laura R." <UseFirstInitialPlusRobinson@technologist.com> wrote > And as far as I can tell, the sole point of your post was >to generate more discord. Nice. Discord is fine--I think Tracy and Jeannie endanger the very animals that they are supposed to be caring for and protecting. Scumbags. Bitch? You bet. I'd remove Tracy's cat from her "care" if I could. circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:01:18 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find > that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are > unwilling or unable to see anyone elses point of view. They believe that > cats should be inside no matter what and cannot seem to comprehend that > sometimes it *is* safe for them to go out unsupervised. Jeannie, *you* are the one being thickheaded here. Let's start with this, straight out of the dictionary: safe: Secure from danger, harm, or evil. Free from danger or injury; unhurt: safe and sound. Free from risk; sure: a safe bet. Affording protection: a safe place. Now, an unsupervised cat outside is *not* safe. The cat may be "safe enough" for its owner's taste. The owner may choose to accept the *inherent risk* in letting the cat outside, but that does not change the _fact_ that there is risk. There is. Period. Low risk, high risk, it is STILL RISK. And that's the point you refuse to acknowledge. Whether you choose to let your cats roam unsupervised is entirely up to you, but don't claim that it is "safe" to do so when it simply is not. It is close enough to safe for you to accept the risk; there is a difference. And don't you dare label people here as you did above when you won't even bother to read what is actually being said versus what you'd like to *think* is being said. Laura SignatureThe optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -Robert Oppenheimer > circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:01:18 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > Jeannie, *you* are the one being thickheaded here. See what I mean about the insults and the inability to see things from another persons point of view >Let's start with > this, straight out of the dictionary: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Now, an unsupervised cat outside is *not* safe. OK Laura, step away from the dictionary. Maybe I should have typed *relatively* safe. There are always risks associated with any activity, whether they are likely to occur is another matter. Life is not safe no matter what you do. >The cat may be "safe > enough" for its owner's taste. The owner may choose to accept the > *inherent risk* in letting the cat outside, but that does not change > the _fact_ that there is risk. There is. Period. Low risk, high risk, > it is STILL RISK. And that's the point you refuse to acknowledge. I don't "refuse to acknowledge" that there are risks, I said that, if you read the posts from some in this group, the risks appear to be blow them out of proportion in relation to the likelyhood of them actually happening. Neither have I ever said that all cats should go outside. If you live in a city or high traffic area then it's just not possible, what I am saying is that in some situations where the risks are minimal, it is neither necessary or desirable to keep your cat inside IMO.. > Whether you choose to let your cats roam unsupervised is entirely up > to you, but don't claim that it is "safe" to do so when it simply is > not. It is close enough to safe for you to accept the risk; there is > a difference. There are risks for indoor cats too. They could chew through electric wires, eat any number of household poisons, strangle themselves on the curtains. Are these things likely to happen...probably not, but it just goes to show that your cats are not *safe* as defined by your dictionary snippet either. > And don't you dare label people here as you did above when you won't > even bother to read what is actually being said versus what you'd > like to *think* is being said. I don't quite understand what I'm labelling people as. I would certainly *dare* label some on this news group as vehemently opposed to cats roaming no matter what the situation or the location of the home. I would also like to reiterate my earlier point that arguing about this issue is pointless as you are never going to come around to my way of thinking and vice versa, it's a stalemate which could quite easily become a flame war, which is not something I can be bothered with. Jeannie circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 16:30:18 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > > circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 12:01:18 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > > jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > See what I mean about the insults and the inability to see things from > another persons point of view Speak for yourself, Jeannie. You have some serious inability to see your own behavior. > >Let's start with > > this, straight out of the dictionary: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > OK Laura, step away from the dictionary. Maybe I should have typed > *relatively* safe. Yes, you should have. But you didn't. > There are always risks associated with any activity, whether they are likely > to occur is another > matter. Life is not safe no matter what you do. I never said otherwise. > >The cat may be "safe > > enough" for its owner's taste. The owner may choose to accept the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > where the risks are minimal, it is neither necessary or desirable to keep > your cat inside IMO.. And yet you refuse to acknowledge that the people you're denigrating DO see what your point of view is. They just happen to disagree with you. By insulting and claiming that people here "cannot seem to comprehend", *you* are the one who is, as I said, being thickheaded. And if you're so inane as to consider that an "insult", then you *really* need to analyze your own behavior. > > Whether you choose to let your cats roam unsupervised is entirely up > > to you, but don't claim that it is "safe" to do so when it simply is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not *safe* as > defined by your dictionary snippet either. That is correct, and that is not the issue or the discussion at hand. > > And don't you dare label people here as you did above when you won't > > even bother to read what is actually being said versus what you'd [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > matter what > the situation or the location of the home. Then re-read what you wrote and tell me how you consider it polite. > I would also like to reiterate my earlier point that arguing about this > issue is pointless as you are never going to come around to my way of > thinking and vice versa, There is a difference between disagreeing and being incapable of seeing your point of view. You apparently don't get that. > it's a stalemate which could quite easily become a > flame war, which is not something I can be bothered with. Then why did you start one, Jeannie? Laura SignatureLet us be thankful for fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Mark Twain >Jeannie, *you* are the one being thickheaded here. Let's start with >this, straight out of the dictionary: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >not. It is close enough to safe for you to accept the risk; there is >a difference. Is it safe for you to go outside? Do you work? Do you even have a job? Being indoors isn't safe either. There's fire, there's a chance of a burgler who doesn't like cats, or any number of other possibilities. Personally, I keep my cats indoors. SignatureJust sit through this NRA meeting Marge, and if you still don't think guns are great then we'll argue some more. circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:05:46 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, DevilsPGD (UseTheReplyToField@crazyhat.net) said, > Is it safe for you to go outside? I am capable of checking for cars before I cross the street. I am capable of not getting into fights with cats that may carry infectious diseases. I am capable of not going into a yard where a dog that would like to eat me for dinner lives. I am capable of all of the things that a toddler is not capable of doing to protect itself from the outside world, and cats are the equivalent of toddlers when it comes to ability to dodge certain environmental dangers. > Do you work? Do you even have a job? <snort> Yes, I do. I have a highly demanding job that pays me a comfortable six-figure salary, actually, although here in New York, six figures doesn't stretch as far as it would elsewhere, I'll admit. At the moment, however, I am on crutches and homebound because of foot surgery. Given that I am a workaholic, I'm looking forward to getting my cast removed and returning to work. > Being indoors isn't safe either. There's fire, there's a chance of a > burgler who doesn't like cats, or any number of other possibilities. I never said otherwise. I *said* that the reality is, by letting one's cats outdoors, a cat owner *is* exposing them to risk that they would otherwise not encounter. Period. > Personally, I keep my cats indoors. Yippee for you. You've entirely missed my point, which is that nobody can say that it is "safe" to let his or her cats outdoors. It is not. It may be safe *enough* for the owner to be willing to take the risk, and that is the owner's prerogative. That does not, however, change the fact that the owner is exposing the cat to additional risk by allowing the cat to roam freely outdoors. This is really a very simple concept that I would think any adult could understand. Perhaps it is you who does not have a job, maybe because you're not capable of simple logic. Laura SignatureWork is the curse of the drinking classes. -Oscar Wilde God Invented Whiskey to Keep the Irish From Ruling the World--(Bumper Sticker I saw last week) >circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:05:46 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, >DevilsPGD (UseTheReplyToField@crazyhat.net) said, >> >> Is it safe for you to go outside? >I am capable of checking for cars before I cross the street. All the cats in my neighbourhood bolt off the road when we come through in our van -- Are our neighbourhood cats smarter then your average NYC cat? -- Note that these are not my cats, mine stay inside. >I am capable of not getting into fights with cats that may carry >infectious diseases. Can you guarantee that if a bully/thug/punk comes up to you on the street can you avoid a fight? -- Cats may be more likely wrestle or to fight, but you're not safe either. >I am capable of not going into a yard where a dog that would like to >eat me for dinner lives. Our cats run away from the window when the big dog next door growls... They might go over there, they've never met a dog, but I doubt a streetsmart cat would. >At the moment, however, I am on crutches and homebound because of >foot surgery. Given that I am a workaholic, I'm looking forward to >getting my cast removed and returning to work. Interesting, perhaps your life isn't that safe either? >> Being indoors isn't safe either. There's fire, there's a chance of a >> burgler who doesn't like cats, or any number of other possibilities. > >I never said otherwise. I *said* that the reality is, by letting >one's cats outdoors, a cat owner *is* exposing them to risk that they >would otherwise not encounter. Period. Sure, it's safer to stay at home. I'll give you that. Did you break your leg at home? >Yippee for you. You've entirely missed my point, which is that nobody >can say that it is "safe" to let his or her cats outdoors. It is not. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it is you who does not have a job, maybe because you're not capable >of simple logic. I'll definitely say that it's not as safe to have a cat outside as inside, there's no doubt there. However, they're still safer living at home with access to the outdoors then they would be living on the street. We're mostly on the same side here, I'm just trying to point out that safety isn't all there is to life. SignatureAll generalizations are bad! circa Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:01:30 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, DevilsPGD (UseTheReplyToField@crazyhat.net) said, > >circa Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:05:46 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > >DevilsPGD (UseTheReplyToField@crazyhat.net) said, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in our van -- Are our neighbourhood cats smarter then your average NYC > cat? -- Note that these are not my cats, mine stay inside. Irrelevant. > >I am capable of not getting into fights with cats that may carry > >infectious diseases. > > Can you guarantee that if a bully/thug/punk comes up to you on the > street can you avoid a fight? -- Cats may be more likely wrestle or to > fight, but you're not safe either. Never said I was. Again, irrelevant. > >I am capable of not going into a yard where a dog that would like to > >eat me for dinner lives. > > Our cats run away from the window when the big dog next door growls... > They might go over there, they've never met a dog, but I doubt a > streetsmart cat would. Doubt does not fact make. > >At the moment, however, I am on crutches and homebound because of > >foot surgery. Given that I am a workaholic, I'm looking forward to > >getting my cast removed and returning to work. > > Interesting, perhaps your life isn't that safe either? What part of "foot surgery" wasn't clear? > >> Being indoors isn't safe either. There's fire, there's a chance of a > >> burgler who doesn't like cats, or any number of other possibilities. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sure, it's safer to stay at home. I'll give you that. Did you break > your leg at home? What part of "foot surgery" wasn't clear? > >Yippee for you. You've entirely missed my point, which is that nobody > >can say that it is "safe" to let his or her cats outdoors. It is not. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > We're mostly on the same side here, I'm just trying to point out that > safety isn't all there is to life. You've proven that you're really not very good at reading what I've written, so this conversation has become pointless and boring. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >>>> Is it safe for you to go outside? >>>I am capable of checking for cars before I cross the street. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Irrelevant. I'm just suggesting that perhaps cats are smart enough to avoid cars when they cross the street. The ones around here sure are. >>>I am capable of not getting into fights with cats that may carry >>>infectious diseases. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Never said I was. Again, irrelevant. So you're no better off then a cat. >> >I am capable of not going into a yard where a dog that would like to >> >eat me for dinner lives. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Doubt does not fact make. True enough. However, I can think of four or five hours around here that have big dogs, yet we still have a number of indoor/outdoor cats roaming. Perhaps the dogs weren't hungry? >> >At the moment, however, I am on crutches and homebound because of >> >foot surgery. Given that I am a workaholic, I'm looking forward to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What part of "foot surgery" wasn't clear? Well, surgery isn't really safe either, not by the working definition we're using here. Shall I quote it? >You've proven that you're really not very good at reading what I've >written, so this conversation has become pointless and boring. If you can't keep up, I'm 100% okay with that. SignatureIn Jolt We Trust > I'm just suggesting that perhaps cats are smart enough to avoid cars when they cross the street. The ones around here sure are. Perhaps, perhaps not. What an idiot. Oops - there is one other thing I forgot to mention. The local county ordinance has leash laws for dogs, although that doesn't apply to people's private yards and there are three county-provided off leash dog run areas within two miles of my home. The county ordinance for cats is that if they are allowed outdoors, then they must be spayed and neutered. Very enlightened place : >Oops - there is one other thing I forgot to mention. The local county >ordinance has leash laws for dogs, although that doesn't apply to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Very enlightened place :> That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. Or at least that's the way it is here. Sherry circa 14 Jun 2004 05:55:41 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry (sriddles@aol.comkitty) said, > That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. Or > at least that's the way it is here. It totally depends. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >> That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. >Or >> at least that's the way it is here. >> >It totally depends. Can you expand on that, Laura. Admitting first I'm sure not a whiz on government..but here's the way I see ithere: I thought an ordinance was strictly a municipal regulation. The city council would pass a, say, leash law for the city. However, once you're outside city limits, the ordinance cannot be enforced. Any animal issues occurring outside city limits are enforceable only by county law enforcement; but those laws would be just State Laws. I guess the exception would be if there are county-specific state laws. Of course the same state law applies everywhere; but what I don't get is how a leash ordinance can be a "county ordinance." wouldn't it apply to rural areas, also, then? What body *creates* the ordinance? I forget that sometimes the US is like 50 different little countries. Yours in confusion, Sherry > >> That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. > >Or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Yours in confusion, > Sherry This is just my experience in the two states I have lived in. I imagine there are many other variations out there. I am from Maryland, where the county basically *is* the municipality. Each county runs a school system, police and fire department, trash pick-up, and makes the laws for things like animal leash laws, health codes, etc. There are communities within the county, but you are under the same rules and regulations within the county. I currently live in Massachusetts, where every little town is an entity unto itself. This was a very weird concept for me to understand at first. Each little town within a county has its own police and fire department, school system, trash, water, property taxes, and makes its own laws about animal control and leash laws, how loud you can play your stereo, stuff like that. I think all the county does is run the court system. I don't really know if the county makes laws that would supersede the town laws. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com circa Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:38:33 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, KellyH (Kelly@whatever.com) said, > I don't really know if > the county makes laws that would supersede the town laws. Generally, the more local governmental entity supercedes the less local, from what I've been digging up. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >I currently live in Massachusetts, where every little town is an entity unto >itself. Thanks for the reply, Kelly. What you'[ve described is the way it is here. That's why I couldn't imagine a "county ordinance." Sherry circa 14 Jun 2004 13:59:12 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Sherry (sriddles@aol.comkitty) said, > >> That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. > >Or [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I forget that sometimes the US is like 50 different little countries. > Yours in confusion, Did you see the list of rabies regulations I posted a week or two ago? In researching it, I found that it varies *widely*. Let me know if you can't find it and I can re-post it. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde >Did you see the list of rabies regulations I posted a week or two >ago? In researching it, I found that it varies *widely*. Let me know >if you can't find it and I can re-post it. > >Laura Gotcha. Thanks. Sherry > That's weird. Counties don't regulate pet ordinances. Municipalities do. Or > at least that's the way it is here. > > Sherry Sorry. Let me clarify. The municpality is a tiny incorporated town - covers less than two square miles in area and our City Hall is a ski-chalet sized building. There is a general county guideline for animal regulations and the municipality has no ordinance on the books, adding to, altering or changing the county guidelines - so they are the law of the land. We don't have our own animal control either, the duty is performed by the police and we use the facilities of neighboring towns in the county. >Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find >that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are >unwilling or unable to see anyone elses point of view. In regard to anyone being "unwilling or unable" to see anyone else's point of view...I think you miss Mary's point of view entirely. People have different attitudes. It's obvious to me that Mary considers her cats as irreplaceable as children. They are highly protected, and may be *she* can't imagine anyone else *not* wanting to protect theirs. You can't judge the "average" cat owner by the posts on this group. The cats owned by the regulars here, anyway, are far more pampered, protected, and well-cared-for. I've already heard some cockamamie "theory" that indoor cats suffer more scratching problems, etc. etc. than outdoor cats. I don't buy it. I think those issues are *noticed* and discussed more....because of the attention the cats here get. Sherry > >Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find > >that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cats as irreplaceable as children. They are highly protected, and may be *she* > can't imagine anyone else *not* wanting to protect theirs. Although I agree with you on this one, I just think that everyones situation is different and maybe some people should think about that more before immediately attacking other posters just because they have differing views. It's just not helpful. That's the whole problem with this subject, it just gets too emotive and I admit I'm as bad as everyone else for this. There's just no possible rational debate to be had IMO, your either one side of the fence or the other and the battle lines are set in stone. Jeannie circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:48:58 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > I admit I'm as bad as everyone else for this. Then don't do it. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > >Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find > >that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cats as irreplaceable as children. They are highly protected, and may be *she* > can't imagine anyone else *not* wanting to protect theirs. Yes, Sherry, this is about right. And, I'm not about to have anyone tell me I have to make "nice nice" with people who are supposed to be taking care of domesticated, relatively defenseless creatures and instead, essentially lead them to slaughter because it is convenient to have them out of the house at times. We are all entitled to our opinions--and I think these people are scumbags in general, but particularly anyone who lives in the US and allows cats out in an urban area. Major Scumbags like Tracy ought not to have cats. Of course, she probably doesn't have them for very long. > > >Tracy, I'm afraid you are wasting your time with this one. You will find > > >that a lot of people on this NG hold the same opinions as Mary and are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to be taking care of domesticated, relatively defenseless > creatures and instead, essentially lead them to slaughter For God's sake get things into perspective woman! > because it is convenient to have them out of the house > at times. We are all entitled to our opinions--and I think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not to have cats. Of course, she probably doesn't > have them for very long. This is exactly the kind of reply I have come to expect from Mary. Rude, offensive and essentially useless. Mary, just because you *think* your right doesn't actually make it so. Jeannie circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:23:11 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, > This is exactly the kind of reply I have come to expect from Mary. Rude, > offensive and essentially useless. Mary, just because you *think* your > right doesn't actually make it so. And if you don't like what Mary has to say, IGNORE IT INSTEAD OF WHINING ABOUT IT IN POST AFTER POST. It's really quite simple. Laura SignatureExperience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde > circa Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:23:11 +0100, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > jeannie (jeanniw@NOSPAMdaikatana.fsnet.co.uk) said, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And if you don't like what Mary has to say, IGNORE IT INSTEAD OF > WHINING ABOUT IT IN POST AFTER POST. It's really quite simple. Yes, I believe it is. :) > > Yes, Sherry, this is about right. And, I'm not about to have anyone > > tell me I have to make "nice nice" with people who are supposed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > not to have cats. Of course, she probably doesn't > > have them for very long. As I recall, Sherry said she used to let her cats outside and would again if she felt she lived in a safe area. So per Mary, Sherry is a major scumbag who ought not be allowed to have cats. Maybe defending this "point of view" (which is starting to sound more like an emotional problem to me) is not the best use of time? Your points are laughable. It would be FAR more convenient for me to keep my cats locked up in the house all day, and pacified with catnip and Feliway, sleeping sixteen or more hours a day and awakening when I bestow my prescence upon them two hours of attention, than for us to arrange our schedule so that one of us is always up at dawn to let the cats out, and one of us is always home in the early evening to take them in each night. Let's see. In England, they don't mass euthanize thousands and thousands of cats each year. In the US, we do. In England, they've made declawing illegal. Here in the US, we chop off our cats toes so they won't scratch our furniture (which they do partially out of frustration with not being able to access natural places to scratch and maintain their claws). Which country is more rational in it's approach to companion animals? And in England, it is more desirable for a cat to have some outdoor access of some sort as people can best arrange for them given their circumstances. Also rational. Rational ideas go together. Right now, cat #1 is in my lap as I write this and cat #2 is lolling in the backyard under a crab apple tree. Does that sound like being slaughtered? Restricting cat guardianship, to anyone who has seen the piles of bodies outside their local Animal Control, is not the goal. There are not enough homes, indoor or indoor-outdoor, for all of the cats, many of whom are forced to spend their last days confined to scary metal cages before being truly lead to slaughter. That's the true horror and that's what is worth getting upset about. Name-calling is the refuge of people who don't have stronger arguments for their point of view. What bothers me here is people being told that they will be abused and insulted if they are unfortunate enough to lose a cat. It's nasty and it's not good for the community as a whole, and I don't think anyone, no matter what their view is on the issue, should tolerate such an attitude here. In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.health+behav", 2004: > It would be FAR more convenient for me to > keep my cats locked up in the house all day, and pacified with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is always up at dawn to let the cats out, and one of us is > always home in the early evening to take them in each night. See, this is where you start to insult the rest of us who have not contributed to this thread. You also disregard some county laws that don't allow free-roaming pets of any kind, less you be subject to a fine and/or confiscation of your pet. Do you suggest we not have cats if they are not allowed to free-roam by law? SignatureCheryl > As I recall, [snips sound of rocks rolling around in Tracy's brainless head while her jaws work] I have nothing else to say to you you incredibly stupid, malicious, cat-endangering piece of sh.t. Life is too short. > Your points are laughable. It would be FAR more convenient for me to > keep my cats locked up in the house all day, and pacified with catnip [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cats out, and one of us is always home in the early evening to take > them in each night. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, & assume you really wrote this in light of Mary's post(s), rather than casting shadows upon everyone here who has indoor-only cats? Cathy > I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, & assume you really wrote this in > light of Mary's post(s), rather than casting shadows upon everyone here who > has indoor-only cats? *Snort* Shadows? Jesus. If this is "politeness" thanks anyway. I think Tracy is pretty clear in what she is saying. It's the Stupid Bitch Feline Philosophy. All of our cats sleep 18 hours a day, we spend only two hours with them, they are bored, etc. If this kind of namby-pamby refusal to see the truth even when it slaps you in the face is your version of being polite, you can have it. Tracy is not just saying that she is right to let her cats roam, she is saying that we are wrong to keep ours indoors. She said it in no uncertain terms. Benefit of WHAT doubt? There is no goddamned doubt about it. I am thoroughly disgusted with you too. > > I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, & assume you really wrote this > in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > WHAT doubt? There is no goddamned doubt about it. I am thoroughly disgusted > with you too. Obviously. Cathy >As I recall, Sherry said she used to let her cats outside and would >again if she felt she lived in a safe area. No, that's not something I have ever said. Just to set the record straight, I have specified urban areas. Meaning, specifically, neighborhoods; living in town; i.e. where there is traffic and neighbors. Mine go outdoors in the daytime. But I live very rural, very isolated, with no traffic and no neighbors. You mention in your post that someone lets them outdoors at dawn, and someone brings them in at the end of the day. I would never leave my cats outside that long. Not even here. Sherry > >As I recall, Sherry said she used to let her cats outside and would > >again if she felt she lived in a safe area. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sherry Hi Sherry, I could've sworn that I've already said this multiple times, but...... the door is open for the cats at dawn and it is closed at the end of the day. They have the choice of outdoor access for that period. They aren't outdoors all day. Each cat comes in to munch and say hello and see what's going on inside for 30 or 60 minutes at least 4-5 times a day and sometimes more frequently. The rest of the time they're within 500 feet of the house and I can usually see them if I look out the window. If both of us go out for a while, they will generally come inside and "watch" the house until we return. They have a window in the kitchen where we built them a stairway and that's what they use if the door isn't propped open for them. I'm really sorry that so many of you are frightened of your neighbors. It seems kind of sad that you don't know them and are so convinced they will harm your cats. The people on my block are great. I love living here. > I'm really sorry that so many of you are frightened of your neighbors. > It seems kind of sad that you don't know them and are so convinced > they will harm your cats. The people on my block are great. I love > living here. My neighbors are fine, & the only wild animals in this neighborhood are squirrels, birds, a few chipmunks (until my neighbor's cat zaps them), the occasional bunny or rabbit, & the very occasional skunk. No foxes, coyotes, dogs running loose, etc. So far, so good. However, there *is* the street out front: a residential, yet relatively busy one. Therefore, my cats are indoors, or on the screened porch. Cathy |
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