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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2008Feline Bladder Inflamation
We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an infection. As some of you may recall, we haven't had Max for all that long. Almost as soon as we took him into our household he was showing signs of a urinary blockage. He has had that awful surgery already... the surgery that removes most of the penis. This was done partially because we (my husband and I) have been bringing Max into the vet on average of every three weeks, sometimes more, since we took him into our home. Since he has had the surgery, the visits to the vet have been no less frequent. With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125 mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation. Seeing how at my last visit to the vet, they seemed to think that the reason he needed to be on anti-biotics AGAIN was because perhaps he hadn't been on antibiotics long enough after the surgery - although, it sure seemed like it should have been - I am not an expert. They seemed to feel at the time that some infection had been left over and finally grew to become enough of a problem to cause Max discomfort. So now, they give me this stuff I can get to help with Maxes issues... I am wondering if we are proceeding willy nilly here. I am leaning towards waiting to see if the urine sample comes out clean. If so, then we can proceed from there. If the infection was a residual infection and the problem has cleared up, then lets see what happens. If more problems follow, then lets go with the glucosamine. I am wondering if there are others here who know more about glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it? Thanks in advance for any thoughts anyone might have. Melissa > We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was > strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Melissa Hi Melissa, You might want to ping Phil P.--he's addressed this topic several times. I was going to try and find a link but my computer is acting up. It can take several weeks of antibiotic treatment to take care of the infection. The glucosamine chondroitin is supposed to help repair the lining of the bladder. I don't remember what else--I think he also suggests amitriptyline only for easily stressed cats (it's an antidepressant and has some analgesic activity). Good luck, Bonnie Suddenly, without warning, 22brix exclaimed (4/8/2008 12:54 PM): >> We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was >> strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bonnie Glucosamine protects the bladder lining as well, I'm told. And Meep the cystitis kitty will be on amitryptyline as soon as the vet gets the stuff - it's been really hard for her to chase down a source, but I asked her to persevere and she did - a compounding pharmacy is making us up some pills. Here they use clomicalm instead but it's contraindicated with my kitty since it seems to be causing some urinary retention (a known side effect). jmc Suddenly, without warning, mc exclaimed (4/8/2008 9:36 AM): > We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was > strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract > infection. Upon the original visit he showed what seemed like rather > minor excessive red and white blood cells in his urine indicating an > infection. > With all that said, today the veterinarian recommended giving Max 125 > mg of glucosamine chondroitin per day for bladder inflamation. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Melissa Meep gets glucosamine condroitin daily for her cystitis. I'm using, with the vet's approval, Drs Fosters and Smith Joint Care 2. Yup, a glucosamine formulation for arthritis. Same stuff, different use, and cheaper than the glucosamine supp vets will usually sell you, and it comes in a great big jar of powder for long-term use. It has helped her a lot. She has gone nearly two years without a serious attack; she had one recently but it wasn't a crystals problem as before (poor thing could only pee dime-sized blood spots!). This time it was the kind of attack where she keeps feeling like she has to pee, but doesn't actually. If she's gotta have cystitis I prefer this sort of problem to the painful crystals! And, since she's an older cat, the glucosamine helps her joints too. Has no side effects either; I've started taking it for my aging joints as well. I just add it to her wet food but apparently she likes the taste, I've coated her dry with it and she still mops it up :) Here's the link to Meep's supplement: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14402 jmc > I am wondering if there are others here who know more about > glucosamine chondroitin? Has anyone had experience with it? Hi Melissa, Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well help. There is also another supplement called curcumin (sp?) that is supposed to reduce inflammation. It's a derivative of the spice tumeric. I have a friend who is using this on one of her cats with great success. There's some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curcumin Rene > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that? You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product. Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback. I just posted another post before I saw your two posts here... What about the Wellness? Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate the feedback ;-) Thanks, Melissa Phil what you have posted here sure makes a lot of sense. I feel much better :-) Still wondering about the best diet... Thank you, thank you, thank you ;-) > Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback. I just posted another post before I > saw your two posts here... > > What about the Wellness? Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So quality control is, at the very least, difficult or nonexistant. That doesn't seem to bother the diehard Wellness fans either. Wellness is made by a generic petfood manufacturer- Menu Foods. I'm sure we all heard of Menu Foods and their lack of quality control. I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times about making their own food and their ingredients. > Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate the feedback ;-) > > Thanks, > Melissa > Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother the > diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times > about making their own food and their ingredients. Phil, This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed. http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html > Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother the > diehard Wellness fans. Wellness also doesn't make their own food. So [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't trust Wellness- and I never will. They lied to me several times > about making their own food and their ingredients. >Phil, >This is not true. I did a quick search of the ingredient lists of the >Wellness dry and canned foods for cats and garlic is not listed. >http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_can_index.html .http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/cat_wellness_dry_index.html Oh yes it certainly is true! Try reading the label on the can..... http://maxshouse.com/wellnesschickenlable.jpg Wellness probably took garlic off the ingredients list on their website because they probably received numerous emails from people who are knowledgeable about feline nutrition, but left in the food because they know most people don't read the labels. I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them? > > Wellness uses garlic in most of their diets. That doesn't seem to bother > the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them? Wellness has stated that, as of December 2007, they no longer adding garlic to their cat foods. There still may be some product from the last manufacturing run on the shelves, but all product with an expiration date of Dec. 2010 and forward does not have garlic in it. Garlic is not listed on the label. On Apr 9, 11:12 am, "Phil P." <p...@maxshouse.com> wrote: > "Rene S." <rschweit...@kalmbach.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I told you Wellness is sleazy company. Still trust them? >Wellness has stated that, as of December 2007, they no longer adding >garlic to their cat foods. There still may be some product from the >last manufacturing run on the shelves, but all product with an >expiration date of Dec. 2010 and forward does not have garlic in it. >Garlic is not listed on the label. I guess Wellness *did* receive a lot of complaints about the garlic. Don't you think they should have stated that on their website since there are still hundreds of tons of pre Dec 2010 product on the shelves? People who rely on the ingredients lists on their website (like YOU! lol) will not be getting the product they think they are. Kinda deceptive, don't you think? If that's true- which I won't believe until I see it- (I don't trust anything Wellness says), just think, it took, what >10 years and probably thousands of complaints for them to finally take the garlic out of their cat foods. ---and you still trust the company? lol > > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well > > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin > > Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that? > You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product. Phil, if you have any links that specifically say curcumin is toxic to cats by all means please post them as I would be interested to see them and share them. I have seen several supplements specifically for dogs and cats online that contain curcumin. My friend did a lot of research on this and one source that has recommended the use of curcumin in cats is Dr. Susan Wynn. Here is her profile: Susan G. Wynn, DVM is the Founder of the Veterinary Botanical Medical Association and serves on the advisory boards of the Veterinary Research Council, Veterinary Institute of Integrative Medicine and the National Animal Supplement Council. She is, as of 2006, the President- elect of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, is active with 2 committees in the Georgia Veterinary Medical Association, and is a registered herbalist with the American Herbalist Guild. Dr. Wynn is a consultant for the Veterinary Information Network and the American Veterinary Medical Association's Network of Animal Health. She is an internationally respected speaker in holistic veterinary medicine, and is an adjunct faculty member with the University of Georgia's College of Veterinary Medicine. She is a two-time grant review panelist for the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Wynn has had papers published in scientific and professional journals, and has authored or co-authored 4 professional level textbooks, including Veterinary Herbal Medicine, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine: Science and Tradition, Emerging Therapies: Herbal and Natural Medicine for Small Animals, and Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice. On Apr 8, 5:47?pm, "Phil P." <p...@maxshouse.com> wrote: > "Rene S." <rschweit...@kalmbach.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Curcumin contains phenols. Phenols are toxic to cats. Did you know that? > You might want to look at the ingredients before recommending a product. >Phil, if you have any links that specifically say curcumin is toxic to cats by all means please post them as I would be interested to see >them and share them. I'd be happy to. But first I want to establish the fact that curcumin indeed contains phenols. And phenols are toxic to cats- especially when ingested chronically. "2744. Curcumin. (EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric#Chemistry "Turmeric contains up to 5% essential oils and up to 3% curcumin, a polyphenol." "Toxicity and Risk Factors. Phenol toxicosis produces identical symptoms in all animal species. All animals develop phenol toxicosis at about the same magnitude, except cats, which are more sensitive because of their limited glucuronide transferase activity." Clinical Veterinary Toxicology, p. 165 "Mechanism of action. Phenols are absorbed rapidly from the GI tract and percutaneously. Cats, certain reptiles, and birds are highly sensitive." Small Animal Toxicology and Poisoning, p. 265 "The oral LD5o of phenol in dogs is estimated to be 0.5 gm/ kg. Cats are considerably more sensitive because of their limited glucuronide transferase activity." Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy, vol XIII, p. 265 Susceptibility of cats to phenol. J Chronic Dis. 1961 Feb 15;138:197-9. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8515551 http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=1&cat=1934&articleid=2243 >My friend did a lot of >research on this Aparrently, she didn't do enough. and one source that has recommended the use of >curcumin in cats is Dr. Susan Wynn. Here is her profile: Like I say- credentials don't always guarantee credibility- one can exist without the other. > On Apr 8, 5:47?pm, "Phil P." <p...@maxshouse.com> wrote: > > "Rene S." <rschweit...@kalmbach.com> wrote in message news:506f5e8a-e9cb-4ceb-83ca-0cbacc56141d@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > > Using the glucosamine certainly won't hurt him and it could very well > > > help. There is also another supplement called curcumin [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Like I say- credentials don't always guarantee credibility- one can exist > without the other. Oops, I forgot one: "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight. Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species more susceptible to intoxication." http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm > Oops, I forgot one: > > "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight. > Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species > more susceptible to intoxication."http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm I am still waiting for you to post a link saying, *specifically*, that curcumin is toxic to cats. I am unable to find anything that says this. The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things. Polyphenol: A kind of chemical that (at least in theory) may protect against some common health problems and possibly certain effects of aging. Polyphenols act as antioxidants. They protect cells and body chemicals against damage caused by free radicals, reactive atoms that contribute to tissue damage in the body. For example, when low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol is oxidized, it can become glued to arteries and cause coronary heart disease. Polyphenols can also block the action of enzymes that cancers need for growth and they can deactivate substances that promote the growth of cancers. The polyphenol most strongly associated with cancer prevention is epigallocatechin-3-gallate, or EGCG. All tea contains polyphenols. Teas and polyphenols isolated from tea have been shown in the laboratory to act as scavengers of oxygen and nitrogen-free radicals, protecting the fatty membranes of cells, proteins and DNA. However, the results of human studies of tea and polyphenols to date (2001) have been inconsistent and have yet to prove anything one way or the other as regards the value of polyphenols. Phenol: 1. A poisonous corrosive compound obtained by the distillation of coal tar that, in dilute solution, is an antimicrobial agent. Also called carbolic acid. > > Oops, I forgot one: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are > many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things. I found the following recommendations for dosing cats and dogs from this link: http://thorne.dyrectmedia.com/media.turmeric_monograph.pdf Safety and Dosage No significant toxicity has been reported following either acute or chronic administration of turmeric extracts at standard doses. At very high doses (100 mg/kg body weight), curcumin may be ulcerogenic in animals, as evidenced by one rat study.34 Because of its numerous protective benefits, regular addition of turmeric to animal feed may be beneficial. For a specific therapeutic effect, the typical canine dosage of curcumin is 50-250 mg three times daily, depending on the size of the animal. 36 If using whole turmeric, the average canine dosage is one-half teaspoon twice daily. Feline dosages are in the range of 50-100 mg daily of curcumin and approximately one-quarter teaspoon daily if using whole turmeric. Equine dosages of curcumin are much higher due to the size of the animal, and range between 1,200 and 2,400 mg daily. Curcumin and turmeric research in these animals is limited and the dosages stated above are estimates only. I also found this: In a recent study, cats exposed to myocardial ischemia-reduced blood flow in the heart tissues, a condition resulting from the consequences of a heart attack, were evaluated using curcumin and quinidine, a standard antiarrhythmic drug. Both of the substances protected the animals against a decrease in heart rate and blood pressure following restricted blood flow to the heart." I refuse to believe they are using a compound to potentially help cats that would be toxic to them, and I would tend to believe someone with the plethora of impressive credentials Dr. Wynn has over some dude on the internet. >I refuse to believe they are using a compound to potentially help cats >that would be toxic to them, Why wouldn't you? Vets, pharmaceutical companies and petfood manufacturers have been doing it for years. Many drugs and compounds used to treat illnesses have adverse effects that are worse than the disease they're designed to treat. >and I would tend to believe someone with the plethora of impressive credentials Dr. Wynn has over some dude on >the internet. I hate to break your heart Darlin', but I didn't write the quotes I posted. But since you think credentials guarantee credibility- which they don't- I'll list the authors of the quotes for your drooling pleasure: The first one was written by Konnie H. Plumlee, DVM, MS, DipI ABVT, ACVIM (Dipl ABVT stands for Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary Toxicologists, Dipl ACVIM stands for Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine- that's on the top shelf of veterinary credentials) The second was written by Roger W. Gfeffer, DVM Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care, and the third one was written by David C. Dorfman, DVM., Ph.D., Dipl. ABVT, (another Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary Toxicologists). Sorry, babe, but two double-boarded Veterinary Toxicologists and an ACVECC Dipl trumps some chick on the internet with a Pet Owners Home Veterinary Handbook. You might want to upgrade your pet owner's paperbacks to a real veterinary physiology text-- or two. Duke's and Cunningham's are pretty good. This way you'll learn why many substances that are harmless to most species are toxic to cats-- and we won't have to have this discussion again. > Oops, I forgot one: > > "The phenol LD50 in the dog is approximately 0.5 g/kg body weight. > Limitations in glucuronide transferase activity in the cat make this species > more susceptible to intoxication."http://www.vetmedtext.com/content/default.cfm >I am still waiting for you to post a link saying, *specifically*, that >curcumin is toxic to cats. Are you serious!!! lol I've already established the fact that curcumin indeed contains phenols. And phenols are toxic to cats- especially when ingested chronically. >The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a >polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are >many,) phenols and polyphenols are two entirely different things. Did you not read the Merck chemical analysis of Curcumin???. "2744. Curcumin. (EE)-1,7-Bis(4-hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)-1,6heptadiene-3,5-dione, turmeric yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450 > >The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a > >polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol > wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450 If you can provide specific cites that say *specifically* that curcumin is toxic to cats, I'll be happy to look at them. If not, then there is really nothing more to discuss. > >The link you posted clearly stated that curcumin is a > >polyphenol. According to the definitions I found (of which there are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > yellow; diferuloylmethane; C.I. 75300; C.I. Natural Yellow 3. C21H2006; mol > wt 368.39." The Merck Index, 12th ed, p.450 >If you can provide specific cites that say *specifically* that >curcumin is toxic to cats, I'll be happy to look at them. Mind boggling! lol If not, >then there is really nothing more to discuss. ..obviously not with your head in the sand-- or should I say up your.. no, I won't say that. > > I am wondering if there are others here who know more about Well, now here is another question. I am trying to do a bit of research here as well. I brought Max home with the cosequin today and instructions to feed wet food (according to my husband) which I have been doing. They were specific about feeding him nothing but a food specifically formulated for urinary tracts. According to the urinalysis, Maxes urine was not at the PH level they would like to see. So now what? I have been feeding nothing but Wellness since all this has come up. And I will say this: When Max urinates it is a fountain. He urinates more than I do!! LOL <chuckle> I can never believe how much urine is in the litter box these days. Now, it is true that my vets office may not be aware of Wellness, but I thought it was specifically formulated for urinary tracts - the cans don't say so but the website makes it sound like as a part of the "natural" ingredients, they are specifically formulated for urinary tract issues. So, according to the Wellness website, it sounds to me like Wellness is naturally being formulated with urinary tract issues in mind. Are there canned foods that are better for this sort of thing than others? The veterinarian said "foods SPECIFICALLY designed for the urinary tract." Another point my veterinarian brought up to me was the evidence of the pituitary gland playing a role in all this. Last night I did a search for "feline idiopathic cystitus" and came up with this link for studies that have been done through Ohio State University: http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/indoorcat/vcna041.pdf Max is the most laid back cat I have ever owned. I mean, he is like cat in the Peanuts cartoon... the "boneless" cat. He is very social, loving, and laid back. Of the two cats I have, Butterball is the one I would say is stressed out more easily. Max just goes with the flow. He is the kind of cat you could do anything to and he would just hang out there :-) Does "stress" in cats mean something different than with people? Is it something people can pick up on if they are intently watching a cats body language? Anyway, I have to read this article from the Ohio State University again a few times... to glean what I can. Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Thanks in advance... Melissa > > > I am wondering if there are others here who know more about > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > like Wellness is naturally being formulated with urinary tract issues > in mind. No no no! Wellness's claim regarding "proper urinary tract function".only refers to a low magnesium content- which is only a small part of the urinary tract picture. They can't make *any* claims that their diets will produce a specific urine pH range without clinical studies to back them up-- and they don't have any. > We had to take Max into the veterinarian today for a recheck. This was > strictly a recheck for a seemingly minor bladder/urinary tract [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Melissa Hi Melissa, Max will probably be more susceptible to UTIs for awhile. Perineal urethrostomies wreak havoc on the protective defenses of the lower urinary tract in male cats. First of all, his urethral opening is now a lot larger, and second, the muscles that close the urethra won't be able to generate the maximum urethral closure pressure to keep bacteria out until they heal and become fully functional again. In the meantime, bacteria will have a poorly defended entrance into the lower urinary tract. Its very important to keep his litterbox immaculately clean for the next few months until his periurethral muscle function returns to normal. I suggest keeping the litter depth very low to reduce the chances of contact. I use empty cat food cartons with about a cup of non-clumping litter and just throw them out after use. Petsmart and Petco will be happy to give you all the empty cartons you'll ever need. If you decide to use clumping litter, scoop up the waste with a child's toy plastic flat shovel- don't sift and scoop with a regular scooper- you'll only be spreading bacteria around. Your vet probably knows he shouldn't use the same antibiotic every time Max gets a UTI- that's one of the reasons cats develop antibiotic-resistant strains. Also, make sure you complete the full course of antibiotics- even if Max seems ok after a few days. Stopping an antibiotic too soon can also lead to antibiotic-resistant strains. The glucosamine/chondroitin supplement should help. Best of luck, Phil |
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