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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2008Did diabetes treatment do this to him?
Our 12-year-old cat developed diabetes suddenly. He's now on Glipizide. How critical is the dosage size? This cat's behavior now is not anywhere near his original kittenish feistiness. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org Its very critical that the cat get the correct dosage. Too much or too little can kill the cat you need to work with your vet on this. Celeste > Our 12-year-old cat developed diabetes suddenly. He's now > on Glipizide. How critical is the dosage size? This cat's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://cpacker.org/whatnews > mailboxATcpacker.org > Its very critical that the cat get the correct dosage. Too much or too > little can kill the cat you need to work with your vet on this. What would have happened if that cat hadn't been treated at all? Except for a lot of drinking water and peeing, his behavior otherwise was normal. If his condition were fatal, at least we would have a memory of him as normal up to the end. But he's my wife's cat, and she decides what gets done. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org > > Its very critical that the cat get the correct dosage. Too much or too > > little can kill the cat you need to work with your vet on this. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > otherwise was normal. If his condition were fatal, at least > we would have a memory of him as normal up to the end. This is absolutely not true that you would have a memory of him as normal up to the end. I have a friend that works for a vet clinic as a diabetes technincian, and she told me that the use of Glipizide is "old-school" thinking and rarely works in cats. Diabetics need insulin or they risk developing fatal ketoacidosis/kidney failure. It is likely that's where your cat is headed right now, and why he's not acting right. If this cat doesn't get the right treatment quickly, he could very well end up dead. The good news is if the cat is immediately put on a low-carb, canned- only, grain-free diet (she uses Wellness Beef and Chicken, Turkey, and Turkey and Salmon for the diabetics she works with), the owners home- test blood sugar using a glucometer such as the One Touch Ultra and keep the cat's numbers within the normal range using insulin it is more likely than not that the cat will go into remission and insulin will no longer be necessary as long as the cat is NEVER fed dry food again and is kept on the right diet. Implementing a weight loss program for obese diabetics is also important, but this is simple to do considering that a diabetic cat should NOT be free fed and should eat measured amounts of canned food on a 12 hour schedule. If you want me to hook your wife up with my friend for a consultation so she has a better understanding of what's involved email me and I'll see what I can do. She has so far had a 100% success rate with getting diabetics off of insulin. On Apr 8, 6:18 am, Charles Packer <mail...@cpacker.org> wrote: > On Apr 7, 7:35 am, "Spot" <s...@somewhere.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > otherwise was normal. If his condition were fatal, at least > we would have a memory of him as normal up to the end. This is absolutely not true that you would have a memory of him as normal up to the end. I have a friend that works for a vet clinic as a diabetes technincian, and she told me that the use of Glipizide is "old-school" thinking and rarely works in cats. Diabetics need insulin or they risk developing fatal ketoacidosis/kidney failure. It is likely that's where your cat is headed right now, and why he's not acting right. If this cat doesn't get the right treatment quickly, he could very well end up dead. The good news is if the cat is immediately put on a low-carb, canned- only, grain-free diet (she uses Wellness Beef and Chicken, Turkey, and Turkey and Salmon for the diabetics she works with), the owners home- test blood sugar using a glucometer such as the One Touch Ultra and keep the cat's numbers within the normal range using insulin it is more likely than not that the cat will go into remission and insulin will no longer be necessary as long as the cat is NEVER fed dry food again and is kept on the right diet. Implementing a weight loss program for obese diabetics is also important, but this is simple to do considering that a diabetic cat should NOT be free fed and should eat measured amounts of canned food on a 12 hour schedule. If you want me to hook your wife up with my friend for a consultation so she has a better understanding of what's involved email me and I'll see what I can do. She has so far had a 100% success rate with getting diabetics off of insulin. -------- FTR, Alex (now of blessed memory) was diagnosed with diabetes in 2006. The doctor immediately put him on a canned food diet and Lantus insulin twice daily. We also checked his blood glucoses at home with a glucometer. He was off insulin entirely with a matter of a couple of weeks and returned to living a normal happy life. After many months of normal blood sugars (off insulin), we only needed to test his blood glucose about once a month. It's a very simple procedure which takes less than a minute. We finally had to have him euthanized last month (due to cancer and heart problems, NOT diabetes). I sincerely hope that Charles and his wife take your (and my) advice and gets a second opinion. Their cat has the potential for a happy long life, off medications, but he needs to get proper treatment, which he is not getting from their current veterinarian. Best regards, ---Cindy S . > The good news is if the cat is immediately put on a low-carb, canned- > only, grain-free diet (she uses Wellness Beef and Chicken, Turkey, and > Turkey and Salmon for the diabetics she works with), the owners home- > test blood sugar using a glucometer such as the One Touch Ultra and He's at least moving toward a low-carb diet by default, since my wife is trying to find tasty food in which to dissolve his Glipizide dose. I would question the use of Glipizide too, on the grounds that, based upon what I read in Wikipedia, he's been prescribed a human-sized dose -- 5 mg -- albeit twice a day instead of every 5 hours, the way humans take it. But my wife and I agree that we don't want to be sticking him with a needle regularly, for any purpose; she because she'd have to do it -- this is where I say "It's your cat" -- and I because it seems ridiculous to torture an animal so it can be your companion for a little while longer. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 8, 12:24 pm, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > The good news is if the cat is immediately put on a low-carb, canned- > only, grain-free diet (she uses Wellness Beef and Chicken, Turkey, and > Turkey and Salmon for the diabetics she works with), the owners home- > test blood sugar using a glucometer such as the One Touch Ultra and He's at least moving toward a low-carb diet by default, since my wife is trying to find tasty food in which to dissolve his Glipizide dose. I would question the use of Glipizide too, on the grounds that, based upon what I read in Wikipedia, he's been prescribed a human-sized dose -- 5 mg -- albeit twice a day instead of every 5 hours, the way humans take it. But my wife and I agree that we don't want to be sticking him with a needle regularly, for any purpose; she because she'd have to do it -- this is where I say "It's your cat" -- and I because it seems ridiculous to torture an animal so it can be your companion for a little while longer. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org Lantus would be a much better choice, and this would not necessarily prolong your cat's life for only "a little while longer." It also is not torture. People who deal with diabetic cats have had a very high response rate -- nearly 100% -- if they adopt cat food without grains (cats do not need carbs), monitor blood glucose regularly, and administer insulin precisely as needed. This is likely to be temporary if you and your wife will stick to the routine because cats often go into remission in a very short period of time. To answer your specific question: Dosage is *critical.* You need to check blood glucose levels at home (very easy to do) and not merely "guess" at the correct dose. Please read Rene's message carefully. It is excellent advice. MaryL On Apr 8, 12:24 pm, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > The good news is if the cat is immediately put on a low-carb, canned- > only, grain-free diet (she uses Wellness Beef and Chicken, Turkey, and > Turkey and Salmon for the diabetics she works with), the owners home- > test blood sugar using a glucometer such as the One Touch Ultra and He's at least moving toward a low-carb diet by default, since my wife is trying to find tasty food in which to dissolve his Glipizide dose. I would question the use of Glipizide too, on the grounds that, based upon what I read in Wikipedia, he's been prescribed a human-sized dose -- 5 mg -- albeit twice a day instead of every 5 hours, the way humans take it. But my wife and I agree that we don't want to be sticking him with a needle regularly, for any purpose; she because she'd have to do it -- this is where I say "It's your cat" -- and I because it seems ridiculous to torture an animal so it can be your companion for a little while longer. -------- It's not torturing the animal. The insulin needle is teeny and the injection is right under the skin. It takes a second to inject the insulin. The cat barely feels it. My cat never even flinched. The blood sugar testing is also quick and infrequent once the diabetes is under control. And generally, the cat ends up cured of the diabetes very quickly, and then the injections stop, and the cat lives a nice long life. As opposed to the glipizide which is not helping the cat who continues to feel sick (by your own admission). The cat is sick and is suffering right now. If he gets insulin, he will feel better almost immediately. But if you continue on your current plan, your cat is going to keep on getting sicker. Not only will his life expectancy be short but it will be of poor quality. This is torturing him much more than injecting him with insulin and actually *curing* him. It's one thing to be in the dark (as you were when you first posted), but now that we have told you that there is a good chance your cat can be cured and live a long life rather than a short, sick, miserable life, I'm having a difficult time understanding why you would choose the latter for an animal I assume you love. I hope you and your wife will reconsider. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > It's not torturing the animal. The insulin needle is teeny and the injection > is right under the skin. It takes a second to inject the insulin. The cat You're right; I should have used "annoy." At any rate, I'll report all these followups to my wife. She might be responsive to the idea of going to another vet, since the one she has been using stood her up yesterday -- left on some emergency without calling her to cancel her appointment. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 9, 11:57 pm, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > It's not torturing the animal. The insulin needle is teeny and the injection > is right under the skin. It takes a second to inject the insulin. The cat You're right; I should have used "annoy." At any rate, I'll report all these followups to my wife. She might be responsive to the idea of going to another vet, since the one she has been using stood her up yesterday -- left on some emergency without calling her to cancel her appointment. ------- I hope your wife reconsiders and sees another vet. There are plenty of fatal cat diseases for which there is no cure, but if your cat has a disease that has a relatively simple "cure" and the cure can result in the cat's having many years of good quality life ahead, why not give it a try? Your wife obviously loves the cat or she wouldn't be taking the cat to the vet and giving the cat the medicine and searching for a food the cat likes, etc. Sometimes people are nervous at the idea of giving the cat a shot, but the vet tech will show her how, and it's so easy that she'll be surprised she hesitated at all. The Lantus is kind of costly, but in all likelihood, you'll have to buy it only once. One bottle contains something like 75 units of insulin and the cat typically needs only a few units a day. With my cat, I had to buy only one bottle and he was "cured" long before the bottle was used up. If your wife is hesitant to check blood glucoses at home, the vet tech will do it. But if she is willing to check at home, see if you can find a free glucometer. Normally, they cost in the neighborhood of $100, but the company makes it's money on the test strips, so sometimes a company will give you free glucometer or there might be one for minimal price ($10). It comes with test strips. When you need to replace the strips, there are 50 to the package. I finished exactly one package of test strips in the nearly two years I had the cat after diagnosis, as once the diabetes is under control, you only need to check the blood glucose occasionally. But if that makes you wife squeamish, the vet's office can check blood glucoses for you, and you don't need to worry about getting a glucometer at all. BTW, if the cat doesn't want to eat, sometimes it's due to nausea and acid stomach from the disease (as Phil pointed out). Try giving the cat 2.5 to 5 mg of Pepcid once daily (which you can buy over the counter at the drugstore - you can buy the 10 mg tablet and split or quarter it). *Don't give the cat more than 5 mg daily.* This has helped my cats when they have had various ailments over the years. But check with your veterinarian (the new one) first to make sure it's okay. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > If your wife is hesitant to check blood glucoses at home, the vet tech will > do it. But if she is willing to check at home, see if you can find a free > glucometer. Normally, they cost in the neighborhood of $100, Nowaways, meters can be gotten for a song. Do a search on eBay for OneTouch Ultra Mini (this is the meter my friend recommends to her clients). You can get them for about $10 (including shipping), and they even come in colors. Also, you can get test strips for about half price on eBay. Just watch the expiration dates of the strips and make sure the sellers have good feedback. "Charles Packer" <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote in message news:190ebe08-982a-4911-8ced- >He's at least moving toward a low-carb diet by default, >since my wife is trying to find tasty food in which to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >is where I say "It's your cat" -- and I because it seems >ridiculous to torture an animal so it can be your .companion for a little while longer. Charles, I've treated many diabetic cats- at least a few dozen over the years- and I can say, based on actual experience, Glipizide does not work, over the long run, in the vast majority of diabetic cats. The failure rate in cats is ~75-80%. The most serious- and potentially life-threatening side effect of Glipizide in cats is loss of appetite and nausea. Loss of appetite in a diabetic cat that's receiving Glipizide can result in *profound* hypoglycemia. The higher the dose the greater the chance- and severity of adverse effects. The dose your cat has been prescribed is *twice* the normal initial dose. I strongly suggest you seek a second opinion from a vet who is current in treating diabetic cats. Btw, how was your cat diagnosed with diabetes? IOW, what prompted the visit to the vet or was diabetes an incidental finding during a routine exam? Also, do you remember what your cat's blood glucose levels were and if glucose was found in his urine? This is *very* important. If your cat's BG was high and glucose wasn't found in the urine, he may not even be diabetic. Does your cat get very stressed out from trips to the vet? I need more information to go on before I can make any suggestions. As far a "torturing" your cat, here's a short video of testing a cat's blood: http://maxshouse.com/bgtest%5B1%5D.mpg Giving insulin injections is even easier on them. You and your wife might want to join the Yahoo Feline Diabetes group. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Felinediabetes/ Get back to me with the BG numbers. Best of luck, Phil > I've treated many diabetic cats- at least a few dozen over the years- and I > can say, based on actual experience, Glipizide does not work, over the long [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > normal initial dose. I strongly suggest you seek a second opinion from a vet > who is current in treating diabetic cats. My wife read all the postings in this thread and then spoke to an acquaintance who's a vet tech. Pretty much confirmed what was recommended here. The PetSmart vet she was going to had been leading her astray. So she'll take the cat to a vet who will endorse the insulin + no-carb diet, probably. Life will become more complicated, not to mention more constrained for our dear companion animal. Sigh...on the other hand, if we'd all grown up on farms, we'd have a different perspective -- more balanced, perhaps -- on the relative value of human and animal lives... -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 10, 2:40 am, "Phil P." <p...@maxshouse.com> wrote: > I've treated many diabetic cats- at least a few dozen over the years- and > I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vet > who is current in treating diabetic cats. My wife read all the postings in this thread and then spoke to an acquaintance who's a vet tech. Pretty much confirmed what was recommended here. The PetSmart vet she was going to had been leading her astray. So she'll take the cat to a vet who will endorse the insulin + no-carb diet, probably. Life will become more complicated, not to mention more constrained for our dear companion animal. Sigh...on the other hand, if we'd all grown up on farms, we'd have a different perspective -- more balanced, perhaps -- on the relative value of human and animal lives... -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org This is *great* news. I'm so glad to hear that your wife is going to see another vet. Incidentally, I would never use the PetSmart vets for anything, so I think this will be much better all around. Please suggest that your wife make the change ASAP. This is one of those times when delay in effective treatment can have very serious consequences. Thank you!! And please thank your wife.!! MaryL MaryL On Apr 10, 2:40 am, "Phil P." <p...@maxshouse.com> wrote: > I've treated many diabetic cats- at least a few dozen over the years- and > I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vet > who is current in treating diabetic cats. My wife read all the postings in this thread and then spoke to an acquaintance who's a vet tech. Pretty much confirmed what was recommended here. The PetSmart vet she was going to had been leading her astray. So she'll take the cat to a vet who will endorse the insulin + no-carb diet, probably. -------- I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have many long, happy, healthy years together. Please keep us updated on how your cat is doing. Best regards, ---Cindy S. Life will become more complicated, not to mention more constrained for our dear companion animal. Sigh...on the other hand, if we'd all grown up on farms, we'd have a different perspective -- more balanced, perhaps -- on the relative value of human and animal lives... -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org > I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have many > long, happy, healthy years together. Please keep us updated on how your cat > is doing. Sorry, no happy ending. The new vet found a liver problem as well. The word came back that the animal would have to be fed a truckload of pills as well as endure the insulin shots. We had the cat euthanized and buried him in our back yard. So this was the outcome of plan A, which gutted my wife's bank account. Plan B, which I had favored, would have been to not treat the condition at all. At the time it appeared, the cat simply drank a lot of water and peed a lot, but was otherwise normal. I would have waited until he seemed to be in pain or became obviously sickly and weak, at which time I would have had him euthanized. Hence my question earlier in the thread, never answered, as to what actually would have happened if the condition were not treated. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 11, 9:15 am, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have many > long, happy, healthy years together. Please keep us updated on how your > cat > is doing. >Sorry, no happy ending. The new vet found a liver problem as well. The word came back that the animal would have to be fed a truckload of pills as well as endure the insulin shots. We had the cat euthanized and buried him in our back yard. I am so sorry to hear that. >So this was the outcome of plan A, which gutted my wife's bank account. Plan B, which I had favored, would have been to not treat the condition at all. The condition you were talking about was *diabetes* NOT a liver problem. It is extremely unfortunate that your cat had more than one thing going on, but that doesn't mean that the advice we gave you about the *diabetes* was incorrect. >At the time it appeared, the cat simply drank a lot of water and peed a lot, but was otherwise normal. Drinking a lot of water and peeing a lot can be a symptom of many things, many of which are treatable. Thyroid disease is another easily treatable condition which can manifest this way. Thyroid disease is easy and cheap to treat. You presented us with a *diagnosis* from a veterinarian. If you had presented only the symptoms, we would have advised you to have the cat tested to find out what was the diagnosis. >I would have waited until he seemed to be in pain or became obviously sickly and weak, at which time I would have had him euthanized. With untreated diabetes, the cat was already sickly and suffering. Cats hide their pain very well. If the cat had had only diabetes, he would have been feeling much better by now from the insulin shots, and your wife would have been so happy. And if the cat had had thyroid disease, he would have been feeling much better right now from (inexpensive) medication. This was a very sad outcome, but our advice was still on-target for a cat with diabetes. >Hence my question earlier in the thread, never answered, as to what actually would have happened if the condition were not treated. We did answer you. We told you that a cat with untreated *diabetes* would have a short and sickly life. To elaborate, the glucose would have clogged up his organs and he could have lost his eyesight, had organ failure, and nerve damage. Except the reality is that the cat also had a liver problem, which the first vet (who was clearly incompetent) failed to diagnose. So, your wife took the cat to a competent vet and got an accurate diagnosis. We have all lost animals that we love, and grieving takes a while. You told us your cat had *diabetes,* and we advised you that the veterinarian was treating it incorrectly and to see another vet about giving insulin shots. That advice still stands with a cat with diabetes. There was never any discussion of liver disease in any of your earlier posts. There was discussion of seeing another vet, which your wife did, and the new vet made an accurate diagnosis. The fact of the matter is that your cat had liver disease, and that would have been true whether you had seen the second vet or not. That is a sad outcome, but we gave you good advice. The bottom line is that when the cat got sick, what you really wanted to do was nothing. You wanted to let the cat die and not treat him. You're angry with us because we advised you to go to a competent vet and have him treated. And that cost money. And as an unfortunate twist of fate, he had an incurable disease in addition to the diabetes, which no one knew about until the new vet diagnosed it, and now you're angry that your wife spent money on the Lantus insulin, and we all should have been mind-readers and known that the cat had liver disease and/or we should have told you to leave the cat untreated and let him die. The people on this group are focused on helping cats to live, and no one here would ever advise someone to leave an easily treatable medical condition like *diabetes* untreated. So, now, you are berating us for not keeping out mouths shut rather than telling you how to cure your cat's diabetes? If you are looking for someone to blame, look to the incompetent veterinarian who missed the liver disease diagnosis (didn't s/he run blood work and see that the liver enzymes were all messed up? Doesn't take a rocket scientist). And for the record, many of us would have spent the money on all the pills for the liver disease, even if it meant eating beans for dinner for a month. If that wasn't your choice, it wasn't, but stop berating us as if your cat's liver disease is all our fault. Condolences to you and your wife on the loss of your kitty. Best regards, ---Cindy S. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org > On Apr 11, 9:15 am, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: >> I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have many [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > http://cpacker.org/whatnews > mailboxATcpacker.org This is an excellent post with good explanations of these medical conditions. People on this group *did* answer the question (several times) because the question related only to diabetes. We were never told about liver disease. The OP is just looking for a way to tell his wife, "They wouldn't help." One of my cats had liver disease. It was diagnosed with her routine blood tests. With aggressive treatment, she lived for another three years. When it finally became clear that we could no longer sustain a quality of life and that we would be prolonging her life only to cause pain, I made the very difficult decision to have her euthanized. I do offer my sympathies to the OP's wife. It sounds like she truly loved this cat. MaryL snip > This is an excellent post with good explanations of these medical > conditions. People on this group *did* answer the question (several > times) because the question related only to diabetes. We were never told > about liver disease. The OP is just looking for a way to tell his wife, > "They wouldn't help." ------- I don't think that's it. The guy expressed his position thus: "if we'd all grown up on farms, we'd have a different perspective -- more balanced, perhaps -- on the relative value of human and animal lives..." He expressed again and again throughout this thread that he thought it was wasteful to spend money treating sick animals. He expressed several times that he did not want to provide medical care for the cat, and disapproved of the fact that his wife was apparently insisting on doing so. She was expected to finance the cat's medical treatment from her own bank account (which obviously did not have a whole lot of money in it if it was depleted from just one medical visit and some insulin). He was obviously refusing to contribute. The only time he said "we" in this whole thread is when he and his wife both ostensibly "agreed" that they didn't want to "torture" the cat by giving him/her insulin injections. I suspect the "we" was most likely "he" and he forced her to agree. But his wife loved the cat and she went into her bank account and took the cat to another vet and instituted treatment with Lantus insulin. I assume the new vet ran a full blood panel, and that was how the liver disease was discovered. Since the cat would require more medications for the liver disease, and his wife didn't have enough money to pay for these additional medications on her own, she had no choice but to go along with his insistence on euthanizing the cat. And now the guy is ticked because his wife paid for an office visit with another veterinarian and probably a complete blood panel and a urinalysis, and she purchased the Lantus insulin and initiated treatment for the diabetes before the results of the blood test came back. When it did, it showed that the cat also had liver disease (which no one could have predicted), and there was no way this guy was going to pay for the cat's medicine, and his wife was out of money. So, he insisted that they euthanize cat and now they have an expensive bought-and-paid for bottle of Lantus insulin and syringes and maybe a glucometer. Screw the cat. Screw the wife. It's all about the money, and he's berating us for his financial loss because we had the audacity to suggest that a sick cat should receive medical treatment rather than simply being allowed to deteriorate and die. I have always found, without fail, that a person's attitude toward animals speaks volumes about the person. I hope his wife (who sounds like a wonderful person) will donate these items back to the vet hospital or to an animal shelter to help another cat whose owner loves his/her cat as much as this guy's wife loved her cat who wants to treat the cat but can't afford the medicine. To the wife: If you intend to donate the insulin, it needs to be refrigerated in the meantime or it will go bad. Again, my heartfelt condolences on the loss of your kitty. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > One of my cats had liver disease. It was diagnosed with her routine blood > tests. With aggressive treatment, she lived for another three years. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > MaryL > rocket scientist). And for the record, many of us would have spent the money > on all the pills for the liver disease, even if it meant eating beans for Clearly. -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 14, 9:58 am, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote: > rocket scientist). And for the record, many of us would have spent the > money > on all the pills for the liver disease, even if it meant eating beans for Clearly. -------- Yes. You told us repeatedly that it was a waste of money to provide medical care for a sick animal. Not that you didn't have the money but that it was a waste of money. And the really really sad part is not so much about what happened with the cat but more about how you treated your wife. Even if the cat meant nothing to you, the cat clearly meant a great deal to your wife, and if you were a decent human being and if you loved your wife, you would done whatever you could for the cat *for the sake of your wife*. And when things didn't work out you the way you wanted, you twisted the story around and started berating the people on this newsgroup for having caused your wife to "waste" her money (and I would be willing to bet she doesn't see it that way) by advising her to seek competent medical treatment for her cat. And then, when the cat was diagnosed with liver disease (which the people on this newsgroup would have treated if it had been any of our cats) you came back here berating us as if we had done you some terrible misservice.Why don't you grow up and take responsibility for your own actions for once in your life and stop trying to blame other people for your misfortunes? Why don't you show a little consideration for your wife's feelings instead of thinking only about yourself? As I said, a person's attitude toward animals is nearly always indicative of his attitude toward fellow human beings. Best regards, ---Cindy S. "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> Cindy why waste your time > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> > > Cindy why waste your time -------- Hoping against hope that he'll do some introspection and rethink the way he treats his wife. But I know it's probably a lost cause. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. There's definitely a connection between domestic abuse and animal abuse: *85 % of homes where women are abused, a pet is also abused. *60% of women who are the victims of domestic violence have had a pet killed by violence. *40% of battered women delay going to a shelter for abused women because they're afraid of what will happen to their pet if they leave. a.sholes like him are why I'm reluctant to adopt cats to women who are married or have boyfriends but come into our adoption centers alone. I want to meet both parties. I get into a lot arguments over it- but my reasons definitely are not sexist. Phil >> > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> >> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > to meet both parties. I get into a lot arguments over it- but my reasons > definitely are not sexist. ------- My jaw dropped when I saw these statistics, but I don't find them surprising. My heart is bleeding, as I envision a woman who loved her cat desperately and would have treated his/her various illnesses if only she had the money, and a husband who refused to give her the money and forced her to have her beloved pet euthanized. My tears are for the woman more so than for the cat. The cat doesn't know the difference at this point, but the woman will be grieving for months. Best regards, ---Cindy S. >>> > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> >>> > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Best regards, >---Cindy S. Hopefully without living with the a.shole. >> I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have many >> long, happy, healthy years together. Please keep us updated on how your cat [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >as to what actually would have happened if the condition >were not treated. Oh, sorry to hear that. Sometimes it costs a lot of money to find out that there is nothing we can do, but because I love my cats I spend the money; they are part of the family after all. Deciding whether to treat and quality of life is a very difficult decision for most of us. Not for you though. Healthcare costs money, whether it's for people or for animals. Keeping a cat in distress until it falls over isn't an option for me. I'm glad "the animal" had your wife to look after it because you apparently don't count. I guess no one answered your earlier question because, well, without spending some money to find out what is wrong, no one can answer the question. >> I just love a happy ending! May you and your wife and your cat have >> many long, happy, healthy years together. Please keep us updated on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > http://cpacker.org/whatnews > mailboxATcpacker.org So the entire point of your post was to be able to show your wife that you were right and she was wrong? Well, you win! > > Its very critical that the cat get the correct dosage. Too much or too > > little can kill the cat you need to work with your vet on this. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Charles Packerhttp://cpacker.org/whatnews > mailboxATcpacker.org You should never ignore a cat's possible condition just because its not "fatal" or they are acting normally. On Apr 18, 9:57 am, jami...@gmail.com wrote: > You should never ignore a cat's possible condition just because its > not "fatal" or they are acting normally. Think about your choice of words here. If I had been _ignoring_ the cat's condition, it never would have occurred to me to post a query to this newsgroup, right? Sloppiness like that has derailed many a discussion in newsgroups. To get this one back on a useful track, I'd like to know: Have there been any peer-reviewed studies of the success rate of the diabetes treatment advocated in this thread? -- Charles Packer http://cpacker.org/whatnews mailboxATcpacker.org On Apr 18, 9:57 am, jami...@gmail.com wrote: > You should never ignore a cat's possible condition just because its > not "fatal" or they are acting normally. >Think about your choice of words here. If I had been >_ignoring_ the cat's condition, it never would have >occurred to me to post a query to this newsgroup, >right? Actually, it seemed to me like you came here looking for people to support your position not to treat the cat. I didn't detect any genuine feelings or concern for the cat- but that's me. >Sloppiness like that has derailed many a discussion >in newsgroups. To get this one back on a useful track, >I'd like to know: Have there been any peer-reviewed >studies of the success rate of the diabetes treatment >advocated in this thread? What do you consider "success"? Success is bringing a diabetic cat's blood glucose levels into the normal range and maintaining it- or driving the cat's diabetes into remission. Cats whose diabetes is regulated but don't go into remission can still have a good quality of life for many years. That's success to me. Here's your study: J Vet Intern Med. 2006 Mar-Apr;20(2):234-8. Use of glargine and lente insulins in cats with diabetes mellitus. Weaver KE, Rozanski EA, Mahony OM, Chan DL, Freeman LM. Department of Clinical Sciences, Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, North Grafton, MA 01536, USA. The goals of this study were to compare the efficacy of once-daily administered Glargine insulin to twice-daily administered Lente insulin in cats with diabetes mellitus and to describe the use of a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet designed for the management of diabetes mellitus in cats. All cats with naturally occurring diabetes mellitus were eligible for inclusion. Baseline testing included a physical examination, serum biochemistry, urinalysis and urine culture, serum thyroxine concentration, and serum fructosamine concentration. All cats were fed the high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet exclusively. Cats were randomized to receive either 0.5 U/kg Lente insulin q12h or 0.5 U/kg Glargine insulin q24h. Re-evaluations were performed on all cats at weeks 1, 2, 4, 8, and 12, and included an assessment of clinical signs, physical examination, 16-hour blood glucose curve, and serum fructosamine concentrations. Thirteen cats completed the study (Lente, n = 7, Glargine, n = 6). There was significant improvement in serum fructosamine and glucose concentrations in all cats but there was no significant difference between the 2 insulin groups. Four of the 13 cats were in complete remission by the end of the study period (Lente, n = 3; Glargine, n = 1). The results of the study support the use of once-daily insulin Glargine or twice-daily Lente insulin in combination with a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet for treatment of feline diabetes mellitus. PMID: 16594577 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > Our 12-year-old cat developed diabetes suddenly. He's now > on Glipizide. How critical is the dosage size? This cat's > behavior now is not anywhere near his original kittenish > feistiness. ----------- Just to make you aware: Sometimes, it's not actually diabetes, but some type of feline pancreatitis, which mimics diabetes. The vet always calls it "diabetes" however. The cat's diet is changed to lower carbohydrates. Often this means a cat that was previously on a dry food diet (even "low cal" or "weight loss") will be switched to canned food (any kind, although some types are better quality than others). Dry food is a bad idea for any cat but particularly if the cat in question has diabetes. The cat is injected twice daily with Lantus insulin and the dose is dependent on blood glucose readings (determined by a glucometer you can buy at the drugstore or bring the cat to the vet for a periodic blood glucose test). The dosage size (of the insulin) is critical (dosage size is very important for any medication, including Glipizide). If the cat doesn't have enough insulin, his blood glucose readings remain high and his body continues to be damaged. If the cat has too much insulin, he could become hypoglycemic and die. If this food switch and Lantus regimen is initiated early, the cat can sometimes be "cured." I know this to be true (i.e., that the cat can sometimes be "cured" and no longer require insulin and be maintained on low-carbohydrated diet alone) because it happened to my cat, and then I found out that other people have had similar experiences, if the situation is addressed early. While I'm not saying your cat doesn't have bona fide diabetes, and I'm not suggesting your doctor is treating you cat's medical condition incorrectly (I'm not a veterinarian), I think I would get a second opinion if I were you. The people I have known who have had a cat with diabetes, which admittedly is only a few, were treating the diabetes with twice daily injections of Lantus insulin. Having said all of that, a 12-year-old cat is considered a "senior." This is certainly not elderly, and your cat still has many happy years ahead, but it's unrealistic to expect a 12-year-old cat to have the same energy level as a kitten. BTW, excessive thirst is a common sign of diabetes. Since you initiated treatment, has your cat been less thirsty? This is another way to get a very general indication of whether or not the treatment is working, but it's critical for either you (or the vet) to be testing the cat's blood glucose routinely. Just my two cents. Good luck. Please keep us updated. Best regards, ---Cindy S. |
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