Last night I saw the people who adopted one of Boots' littermates. They
mentioned that they were just now making arrangements to get "Midnight"
neutered ........... and declawed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sometime in the last month he started clawing the furniture, screens etc.
They said they have a large sisal scratching post or tree (I'm not sure
which), have tried the sticky backed tape and "everything else". Well I'm
not sure what everything else entails and frankly was so upset that I wasn't
thinking straight. They said they have had many cats and never contemplated
declawing before but Midnight is really causing trouble.
I've got to get my thoughts together and present them with a good argument
and alternatives. I can't let them go through with this. I didn't spend all
that time bottle feeding this sweet guy (he was the sweetest guy in the
litter) to see them risk ruining him.
Because of the timing I'm thinking that some of this behavior might have
been triggered by his getting his hormones. He's 9 months old. If Boots is
any indication Midnight has had his hormones now for a month or two. Boots
was scratching where he shouldn't right before he was neutered and has
stopped since, so I'm thinking that getting Midnight neutered ASAP might
take care of the majority of the problem. I'm also thinking that a Feliway
diffuser might help. They haven't been clipping his claws so I showed them
(on Isabelle) how to do that. I'll have to mention softpaws as well.
I've also got to make sure they understand exactly what is involved - that
it is an amputation not nail removal.
I mentioned the risk of peeing outside the box but forgot to mention the
potential for turning the cat into a biter. I'll have to take care of that
omission.
Am I forgetting anything. I want to make a good, logical (not emotional)
case and hope I can convince them to not do this.
Wendy
kaeli - 25 May 2004 15:15 GMT
> Am I forgetting anything. I want to make a good, logical (not emotional)
> case and hope I can convince them to not do this.
Some wonderful, logical arguments against declawing can be found here.
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&show=002
This is a list of countries where the procedure is illegal.
http://www.declawing.com/list.html
This page lists the things that can go wrong during a traditional
(guillotine/scalpel cuts last half of bone that has claw) declaw
surgery.
http://www.moggies.co.uk/stories/declaw.html
The things that can go wrong are multitude. If they choose to declaw
despite all you've said, they need an experienced vet who can perform
the amputation of the full last bone with a laser. This is the newest
technology and the newest procedure; it costs more, but has far less
complications and pain than the traditional mutilation, as it doesn't
actually cut bone - it separates the bones at the joint. This eliminates
the possibility of bone/claw regrowth sometimes seen in traditional
declaws.
It is still the equivalent of getting your toes cut off and trying to
walk around, though. A cat doesn't get a wheelchair. It has to walk
around on the amputated ends of its toes the very day after surgery.
And my favorite quote.
[quote]
Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director
of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral
research, explains declawing:
"The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature
of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine
recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are
fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the
walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are
more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a
state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits
the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform,
disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial
digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture
of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure
serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic
drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they
rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so
sooner or later the pain will emerge." (Excerpted from The Cat Who
Cried For Help, Dodman N, Bantam Books, New York).
[/quote]

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Mary - 25 May 2004 17:25 GMT
>Am I forgetting anything. I want to make a good, logical (not emotional)
>case and hope I can convince them to not do this.
Here are some tips I collected to help them scratch properly
1. Hopefully he likes catnip. If so, rub it all over the scratching post.
Scratch the post yourself, if he still doesn't use it, take his little paws and
scratch the post with them and tell him he's a good kitty. Remember to
associate positive things with acceptable clawing and negative things with
unacceptable clawing.
2. Try a scratching mat. Some prefer horizontal over vetical surfaces.
3. Try sisal, rug, cardboard, fabric... covered trees or mat. You can get cheap
thin door mats and staple gun them to a cat tree. Use canvas if he really likes
fabric. Be sure the stapes go vertical like this "|" and not horizontal like
this "--" so they don't get their claws stuck in there.
4. Put double sided tape where he likes to scratch. They won't like the
stickiness. They may then scratch a few inches over from the tape so be
prepared to add more. Keep no. 5 in mind when using the tape.
5. Don't let him in that room where he scratches when you're not around. When
you're around stand gaurd with a squirt gun and squirt him from a distance when
he scratches the furniture. If he's real persistent, put a little bit of
vinegar in the squirt gun. You can also yell "NO!" when he scratches there. I
also like to take him away from that area instantly and take him to the
scratchy tree, hold his paws and help him scratch while praising him. Make it a
fun experience, don't hold him forcefully or he'll fear the kitty tree. Make
everything associated with the kitty tree positive. I sometimes will put a
scratchy tree close to the furniture they are clawing so they have a nearby
alternative.
6. Put vinegar where he scratches. They don't like the smell.
7. Try some of that cat away spray.
8. Try a scat mat where he is scratching.
9. Get rid of fabric furniture with vertical fabric sides. Get THICK leather or
wood sofa and chairs.
10. Try soft paws.
11. Try trimming his claws every ten days. Some do once a week.
12. Whenever you see him clawing appropriately, praise and reward him lavishly.
Continue to praise him forever or he may get lazy.
13. Try Feliway to calm them down.
14. Make sure your cat tree is tall and heavy enough. Big kitties will topple a
small light one with a small base. I put weights on the bottom of mine. I get
the big ones. I also have a multi-tier cat tree they like to rip up.
15. Try this product, a cat tree that attaches to the side of your couch.
http://www.birminghamind.com/Scratchaway/index.html
RobZip - 25 May 2004 17:49 GMT
>You can also yell "NO!" when he scratches there. I
> also like to take him away from that area instantly and take him to the
> scratchy tree, hold his paws and help him scratch while praising him. Make it a
> fun experience,
I would add one thing to underscore the last line. Have your emotions in
control. Do NOT make a hasty run directly from the scene of the negative
scratching to the scratchy tree. Make a clear transition from
scolding/removing the cat from the bad scratch behavior to one of loving
reassurance. Pause on the way to the scratchy tree if need be for a brief
period so your cat knows the chastisement phase is done. Rushing from a
negative behavior into one you find acceptable may register in the cat's
mind as a continuation of your disapproval if carried out too swiftly.
PawsForThought - 25 May 2004 18:22 GMT
>From: "Wendy" wendypart@nospam.com
>Am I forgetting anything. I want to make a good, logical (not emotional)
>case and hope I can convince them to not do this.
I have a good article link in my signature. Did you have this people sign any
kind of contract when they adopted the cat? If you didn't, for future
reference you should always include a clause that the cat is not to be
declawed. That way you could have taken him back. But I know we don't always
think of these things beforehand. I really hope you can convince these people
not to declaw the poor kitty :(
Lauren
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Cheryl - 25 May 2004 23:02 GMT
> Did you have this people sign any
> kind of contract when they adopted the cat? If you didn't, for future
> reference you should always include a clause that the cat is not to be
> declawed. That way you could have taken him back.
This is what I was thinking. I'm glad Wendy got some good ammo and I hope
they don't end up doing it!! :(

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KellyH - 26 May 2004 00:40 GMT
> Last night I saw the people who adopted one of Boots' littermates. They
> mentioned that they were just now making arrangements to get "Midnight"
> neutered ........... and declawed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<snip for space>
> Am I forgetting anything. I want to make a good, logical (not emotional)
> case and hope I can convince them to not do this.
>
> Wendy
For people who argue that they can't train the cat not to scratch, I
recommend Soft Paws. If they are able to trim his nails, they can put them
on. The Soft Paws website also has a lot of info about declawing. I agree,
it's best to remain calm and collected when presenting the declawing info to
them. They sound like the type of people who may be able to be turned
around on it. They probably have no idea what's involved.

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Wendy - 27 May 2004 00:35 GMT
> > Last night I saw the people who adopted one of Boots' littermates. They
> > mentioned that they were just now making arrangements to get "Midnight"
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> them. They sound like the type of people who may be able to be turned
> around on it. They probably have no idea what's involved.
The dh saw the husband outside and stopped to chat. He mentioned that his
wife had said she was considering having the cat declawed and the husband
said NO WAY! Apparently after she was here the other night and I told her to
clip Midnight's claws, they did and he hasn't been a problem since (I knew
he was a good boy). The dh also mentioned that they really need to get him
fixed and if their vet insists on waiting till the cat is 11 mos. old maybe
they could check with other vets in the area, most of whom would recommend
neutering much earlier than that. The dh also made sure that they understood
that declawing is an amputation (they didn't know that). I don't think I
have to worry about Midnight losing his claws.
I don't understand how a vet could talk to people about this procedure
without telling them what it actually is. I suspect a lot of people (who
haven't researched it on their own) figure it's no more serious than having
a toenail removed.
W
Cat Protector - 27 May 2004 00:44 GMT
What's a dh? As for getting the cat neutered, if price is an issue I would
check with some of your local rescue organizations. They might have low
cost/spay neuter clinics.

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> The dh saw the husband outside and stopped to chat. He mentioned that his
> wife had said she was considering having the cat declawed and the husband
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> W
Annie Wxill - 27 May 2004 02:09 GMT
... The dh also mentioned that they really need to get him
> fixed and if their vet insists on waiting till the cat is 11 mos. ... The
dh also made sure that they understood
> that declawing is an amputation (they didn't know that). ...>
> I don't understand how a vet could talk to people about this procedure
> without telling them what it actually is. I suspect a lot of people (who
> haven't researched it on their own) figure it's no more serious than having
> a toenail removed.
> W
Also, I don't understand how a vet could tell someone to wait until the cat
is 11 mos. old before neutering. It sets the owners up for a real hassle if
a male starts spraying or a female comes into heat.
I'd be concerned about taking a cat to this vet for any reason.
You have got to be relieved that the people are willing to learn about cat
care and decided to let the cat keep his claws. Now maybe you could
recommend a vet who can help them with the neutering.
Annie
Wendy - 27 May 2004 12:24 GMT
> ... The dh also mentioned that they really need to get him
> > fixed and if their vet insists on waiting till the cat is 11 mos. ... The
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> recommend a vet who can help them with the neutering.
> Annie
I already recommended another vet. I think they were concerned about how
long the vet said to wait as well. They are concerned that he'll start the
less wonderful intact male behavior too.
W
kaeli - 27 May 2004 14:09 GMT
> that declawing is an amputation (they didn't know that). I don't think I
> have to worry about Midnight losing his claws.
Yay!
Great news!!
> I don't understand how a vet could talk to people about this procedure
> without telling them what it actually is.
My vets never told us what it was, either.
When I found out, I was horrified. I had declawed cats while I was
growing up. One never fully recovered and always limped a bit. Now I
know why. The old guillotine procedure (still commonly performed unless
you request otherwise) has many such casualties.
Can you believe there is no law across all 50 states that says the vet
has to tell you what the procedure is?
http://cats.about.com/cs/declawing/a/disclose_wait.htm

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PawsForThought - 27 May 2004 18:02 GMT
>From: "Wendy" wendypart@nospam.com
>I don't understand how a vet could talk to people about this procedure
>without telling them what it actually is. I suspect a lot of people (who
>haven't researched it on their own) figure it's no more serious than having
>a toenail removed.
If vets told people, they would lose their blood money. Most people I've come
across who had their cat declawed were shocked and sickened when told what the
vet really did to their cat.
Anyway, good job, Wendy!! :)
Lauren
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Mitch@hotmail.com - 27 May 2004 03:23 GMT
I took in this feral cat, and scratch-training was effortless.
I wonder if they're just looking to throw money at it.
My mom adopted a cat that was already declawed. It's hideous. It
walks around on these stumps as if it still hurts (maybe it does).
It's front paws are so horrible, and every toe is a different length,
and the front paws are half the size of the rear.
What do they charge for this "procedure," because I'm pretty sure I
could do the same job with wire cutters.
kaeli - 27 May 2004 14:16 GMT
> I took in this feral cat, and scratch-training was effortless.
> I wonder if they're just looking to throw money at it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What do they charge for this "procedure," because I'm pretty sure I
> could do the same job with wire cutters.
That's pretty much what the guillotine declaw is - it is a giant nail
clippers that they use to simply cut off the end of the bone that has
the claw on it. This method can produce bone fractures, uneven length,
future bone regrowth, and even future claw regrowth (as embedded claws
that cause a lot of pain to the animal), even if used to amputate at the
joint instead of cutting bone.
If performed today, the vet is not up to date and not using the more
recent declawing procedure that uses a laser to amputate at the joint
(instead of cutting bone). Unfortunately, many vets still use the
guillotine procedure unless the owner pays extra. Some vets don't even
know about the newer procedure. The guillotine procedure has a LOT more
complications than the newer laser procedure.
Note that I think both procedures are abhorrent. But if someone insists
on mutilating their animal, they should at least find an excellent vet
and shell out for the better procedure.

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James Marz - 27 May 2004 15:10 GMT
> I took in this feral cat, and scratch-training was effortless.
> I wonder if they're just looking to throw money at it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What do they charge for this "procedure," because I'm pretty sure I
> could do the same job with wire cutters.
I have done it with sulpuric acid it dissolves the claws even though
it dissolves the pads off their paws too.
James Marz
Born in lust, turn to dust.
Born in sin? come on in! - Stephen King
PawsForThought - 27 May 2004 18:05 GMT
>From: Mitch@hotmail.com
>I took in this feral cat, and scratch-training was effortless.
>I wonder if they're just looking to throw money at it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>What do they charge for this "procedure," because I'm pretty sure I
>could do the same job with wire cutters.
I think they charge a few hundred dollars. Some of these "kind" vets use dog
toenail clippers.
Lauren
Wendy - 28 May 2004 12:22 GMT
> >From: Mitch@hotmail.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Lauren
I've heard it's around $350 for the laser tendon surgery and that is
supposed to be more expensive than a amputation. You can buy one heck of a
cat tree for that kind of money and still afford to have the claws trimmed
by the vet or groomer.
W
PawsForThought - 28 May 2004 14:00 GMT
>From: "Wendy" wendypart@nospam.com
>I've heard it's around $350 for the laser tendon surgery and that is
>supposed to be more expensive than a amputation. You can buy one heck of a
>cat tree for that kind of money and still afford to have the claws trimmed
>by the vet or groomer.
Good point!
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