Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / June 2004
Cat seizures
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Hugh Jardon - 19 May 2004 16:53 GMT Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, that is normal for cats, because all cats do this periodically. But she kept getting worse, and had a full-blown seizure (very scary) so I took her to the vet. The vet ran several tests, FIV, FIP, CBC etc. with no conclusion. My vet admitted that he wasn't very familiar with seizures in cats, but after observing a seizure while in his office said that he thinks that it is epilepsy. I have been giving my cat diazepam and she hasn't had a seizure since she started this medication. I have been told that diaezapam is really just a generic form of valium and can cause severe liver damage in cats. Has anyone here had any experience with cat seizures or epilepsy in cats? I don't want my girl to end up with liver damage from the meds but I don't want her to die from a seizure either. I am caught between a rock and a hard place, and I'm not sure what to do. I would be greatful for any advice concerning seizures or otherwise. Thank you.
Hugh Jardon
~*Connie*~ - 20 May 2004 00:28 GMT your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would highly recommend finding one who does.
> Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hugh Jardon Mary - 20 May 2004 07:22 GMT > your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would > highly recommend finding one who does. > "Hugh Jardon" <hughjardonenya@yahoo.com> wrote in message Oh, Connie ... notice anything odd about the OP's name? Say it five times pretty fast. Hmmm? Think maybe this is another twoll?
James Marz - 20 May 2004 16:13 GMT > > your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would > > highly recommend finding one who does. > > "Hugh Jardon" <hughjardonenya@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Oh, Connie ... notice anything odd about the OP's name? Say it five times > pretty fast. Hmmm? Think maybe this is another twoll? PET has been smoking that herb again. Paranoia Mary? Everybody is a troll eh PET?
Hugh Jardon - 20 May 2004 16:31 GMT > > your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would > > highly recommend finding one who does. > > "Hugh Jardon" <hughjardonenya@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Oh, Connie ... notice anything odd about the OP's name? Say it five times > pretty fast. Hmmm? Think maybe this is another twoll? You remind me of my younger years when the school children would poke fun and make jokes about my name. Children will be children I guess. I came here for advice and I get called a twoll?
Hugh Jardon
Laura R. - 29 May 2004 16:49 GMT circa 20 May 2004 08:31:37 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Hugh Jardon (hughjardonenya@yahoo.com) said,
> > > your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would > > > highly recommend finding one who does. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hugh Jardon Well, I know that I skipped this thread on my first breeze-through because of the name under which you posted it. If this is really your name and if you really aren't a troll, why do you not post under "Hugh J." or "HJardon" or something else that would not incline others to find your posts suspect? Just a thought.
Laura
 Signature I am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated.
Hugh Jardon - 20 May 2004 16:37 GMT > your vet admitted that he doesn't know much about cat seizures. I would > highly recommend finding one who does. Thanks Connie. I have called every vet listed in my phone book they all say my vet did the right thing. I made an appointment to get a second opinion on Friday.
Hugh Jardon
Wendy - 20 May 2004 12:41 GMT > Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hugh Jardon A friend's cat had epilepsy and they gave him Phenobarbital. I understand that Phenobarbital is the initial drug of choice.
W
Hugh Jardon - 20 May 2004 18:20 GMT > > Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > W Hi Wendy, I think that is what the vet tried the first time. What ever it was my girl was allergic to it and it caused a knot to appear under her skin. Thanks Wendy.
Hugh Jardon
Johnny Comelately - 20 May 2004 15:32 GMT > Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hugh Jardon Here is some info you might find useful. I also included the URL in case you need more info. HTH
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/lowekamp/feline_epilepsy.html
Feline Seizures and Epilepsy
The intent of this page is to provide information for people whose cats have had seizures. Seizures are a serious problem, and a cat that has had a seizure should be taken to a veterinarian for proper diagnosis. A proper diagnosis may be expensive and may take some time, but there is usually an underlying cause that can be eliminated or appropriate treatment that can be prescribed. The information in this page is not meant to substitute for a veterinarian's advice, but to aid those who are trying to learn more about their cat's illness and to encourage owners of cats that have had seizures to have their cat's illness diagnosed as quickly as possible. More clinical information is available through the references at the bottom of this article.
What is Epilepsy?
It is important to understand the difference between epilepsy and seizures. Seizures, which range from unusual mood swings to uncontrollable thrashing and loss of body control, are symptoms of a disease. Causes of seizures include infections, tumors, toxic chemicals, and epilepsy. Most seizures in cats have a cause other than epilepsy. It's most useful to think of epilepsy as a word for seizures for which no other cause has been found. You will sometimes see epilepsy divided into idiopathic, or primary, epilepsy; and symptomatic, or secondary, epilepsy. Idiopathic epilepsy is the term used for seizures that appear to have no other cause. Symptomatic epilepsy refers to seizures caused by an underlying condition. Regardless of the terms used, the primary goal when treating a cat with seizures is to identify the disease causing the seizures, assuming it is epilepsy only if no other cause can be found.
General Advice
Seizures should not go untreated. There are risks of choking during a seizure, and more importantly, the seizures may be symptomatic of an underlying disease that can and should be treated. Anti-convulsant drugs may be effective in controlling the seizures, depending on the exact diagnosis.
Observing Seizures
If you observe your cat having what you believe is a seizure, the most important thing to do is to observe every detail you can about it so it can be described to your vet. Frequently, your vet will never actually be able to observe your cat having a seizure, so your description is important to the diagnosis. Try to observe breathing patterns; paddling, motion, or rigidness of limbs; eye dilation or motion; salivation; body twisting; muscle twitching; and duration. It is important to observe which parts of the body are involved. After the seizure is over, your presence and attention will probably comfort your cat as it regains consciousness. Please note that there is an incredibly wide range of symptoms associated with seizures. Generalized convulsions are rare in cats. More common is the "partial complex seizure," which involves an "altered consciousness" and can involve anything from a lack of motion to bizarre behavior such as attacking invisible objects or frantic running and collisions with objects (yes, I know your cat does this normally, this is why it's difficult to diagnose). The major indication that unusual behavior is being caused by a seizure is the presence of "features typical of seizure activity such as facial twitching, salivation, or progression to generalized seizure." (Parent and Quesnel, 1996) If a cat is having a single prolonged seizure, continuous seizures without recovery between them, or two or more isolated seizures within 24 hours, seek medical attention immediately. Aggressive treatment is recommended, usually intravenous dosage of diazepam.
Diagnosis
Your close observation and careful description will help your vet make a diagnosis. Specifically, partial motor seizures are more indicative of symptomatic epilepsy (suggesting an underlying disease), while idiopathic epilepsy usually manifests itself in strictly generalized seizures. This distinction is not conclusive; it is just one piece of evidence to be considered. A complete physical and neurological examination should be performed on any cat with seizures. Often blood tests are indicated to detect any generalized illness that may be causing the seizures. These may include FeLV, toxoplasmosis, FIV, FIP, urinalysis, complete blood cell count (CBC), and biochemical profile. Based on these results, further tests may be indicated. These may include analysis of spinal fluid to detect encephalitis and imaging procedures, such as MRI or CT, to detect lesions such as tumors. You should be aware that few vets have any experience with seizures in cats. They are rare, compared with seizures in dogs. Ask your vet questions about what tests they are considering and what your options are. A vet should not be offended if you get a second opinion. This is important to remember because I have received email from owners of several cats that have died from conditions that could have been detected with a simple blood test and treated quite easily, but were not. If your vet cannot find any cause of the seizures and has not done bloodwork, you should be concerned.
Treatment
If a disease is found to be causing the seizures, the best treatment is to remove or correct the underlying problem. The success of such treatment depends on your vet's ability to identify and treat the disease or remove the growth that is causing the seizures. For example, surgery is often effective for some tumors in cats. If the diagnosis is epilepsy or if the underlying disease is difficult to treat and/or not becoming worse, then the usual therapy is to control the seizures with anti-convulsant drugs. Phenobarbital is considered the initial drug of choice for feline epilepsy. Diazepam (valium) may also be effective but sometimes causes liver problems. The dosage must be adjusted individually to minimize side-effects. Again, this will require your careful observation; you will want to find the lowest dosage that will control the seizures. Potassium Bromide is also being used to treat epilepsy, particularly in cases where liver problems or ineffectiveness may prevent phenobarbital from being used to eliminate the seizures. Some people have suggested that a taurine deficiency may cause seizures. I have not yet seen any information based on scientific research that would support this belief. However, it is certainly true that a cat having seizures should be fed a balanced diet that supplies adequate taurine. The success of treating your cat's seizures depends on the cause of the seizures and the cat's response to medication. This is a difficult condition to diagnose, so it may take several trips to the vet as different diagnostic paths are pursued. Furthermore, your vet should not be upset if you seek a second opinion. If it is difficult to find the cause of your cat's seizures, your local vet may refer your cat to a regional teaching hospital that may be able to pursue a wider variety of tests and treatments and will generally be cheaper.
Hugh Jardon - 20 May 2004 18:16 GMT > Here is some info you might find useful. I also included the URL in > case you need more info. HTH > > http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/lowekamp/feline_epilepsy.html Thanks Johnny, there is a lot of helpful information here. I am taking my girl back to the vet tommorow for a second opinion. I printed this info to take with me. Thanks again.
Hugh Jardon
Jim D - 20 May 2004 15:39 GMT Our cat briefly suffered from seizures and motor control problems when she became diabetic and was given too much insulin.
Severe hypoglycemia can result in seizures and muscle control problems, so be sure to have your cat checked for blood sugar problems.
> Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hugh Jardon Hugh Jardon - 20 May 2004 18:11 GMT > Our cat briefly suffered from seizures and motor control problems when she > became diabetic and was given too much insulin. > > Severe hypoglycemia can result in seizures and muscle control problems, so > be sure to have your cat checked for blood sugar problems. Would that show up on a blood test, or would the vet have to check for that independantly? My vet ran several tests but said they were inconclusive. Thanks Jim.
Hugh Jardon
Jim D - 21 May 2004 13:26 GMT Hugh -
The vet can check your cat's blood sugar by means of a blood test. The process is very similar to that for checking a human. To do a thorough job, the vet would need to take several small blood samples over the course of a day to see what happens to the cat's blood sugar after eating, between meals, and when it is getting hungry.
In a diabetic cat, for example, the blood sugar would tend to spike up to an abnormally high level after eating , stay high for a while, and then drop off to abnormally low levels before the next feeding time. In a normal cat, the blood sugar would start to go up, then be offset by the cat's secretion of insulin into the blood stream, which would keep the blood sugar within a normal tolerance band over a period of hours.
For those who are interested in human dieting and weight loss, it is this insulin cycle that underlies the medical theory of "low carb" diet plans. High carb diets drive up blood sugar, which then triggers insulin production to get the blood sugar back down. Insulin tells the body to convert the blood sugar into fat to store it for later use. Continued intake of carbs keeps the body from tapping the fat reserve for energy, so the fat never goes away. Also, the body tends not to tap into its fat reserves unless it is starving or is being properly exercised. Thus, high carbs equals fat production and weight gain. On the other hand, limited carb intake and proper exercise means tapping the body's fat reserves, which equals weight loss.
Interestingly, extensive medical research indicates that the human body cycles its fat reserves - that is, old fat gets replaced by new fat when there is sufficient intake of oil and fat in the diet. Since the body also tends to store toxic substances and chemicals (and even prescription and illegal drugs) in fat, this normal cycling of fat sheds potentially harmful substances from the body. For example, simply by adding two tablespoons of olive oil to the daily diet, medical research shows that a woman can cut the odds of breast (high degree of fatty tissue) cancer by 30% to 60%!! You would think the medicos would realize that low fat diets can actually be quiet harmful in the long run, and that it's the type of fat (trans-fat and saturated fat) not the overall amount of fat that counts.
Oh well, I've strayed off the topic.
Best wishes.
> > Our cat briefly suffered from seizures and motor control problems when she > > became diabetic and was given too much insulin. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hugh Jardon Marek Williams - 23 May 2004 23:01 GMT >In a diabetic cat, for example, the blood sugar would tend to spike up to an >abnormally high level after eating , stay high for a while, and then drop >off to abnormally low levels before the next feeding time. In a normal cat, >the blood sugar would start to go up, then be offset by the cat's secretion >of insulin into the blood stream, which would keep the blood sugar within a >normal tolerance band over a period of hours. Diabetic humans and cats do run too high because of insufficient insulin. However, the rebound effect (i.e., going too low) is very unusual. In fact it is more common among chronic hypoglycemics, who are not at all diabetic.
>For those who are interested in human dieting and weight loss, it is this >insulin cycle that underlies the medical theory of "low carb" diet plans. >High carb diets drive up blood sugar, which then triggers insulin production >to get the blood sugar back down. Insulin tells the body to convert the >blood sugar into fat to store it for later use. This is all wrong.
Fat cells are the only cells in the body that can admit glucose without the presence of insulin. All other cells in the body require insulin to trigger the opening of the cell wall to admit the glucose molecule from the blood.
Thus, when your blood sugar is high and there is not enough insulin (a diabetic condition), the sugar goes into the fat cells. When there is an adequate amount of insulin the sugar is absorbed and burned by other cells and less so by the fat cells. Insulin does not "tell the body to convert the blood sugar into fat to store it for later use." The truth is more or less the opposite -- sugar ends up being converted to fat in the absence of insulin, not when it is prevalent.
Overweight conditions are caused by dozens of different factors. Indeed, each overweight cat or human is overweight for a combination of reasons, including eating habits.
>Interestingly, extensive medical research indicates that the human body >cycles its fat reserves - that is, old fat gets replaced by new fat when >there is sufficient intake of oil and fat in the diet. Since the body also >tends to store toxic substances and chemicals (and even prescription and >illegal drugs) in fat, this normal cycling of fat sheds potentially harmful >substances from the body. So I suppose the narcs should stop using blood and urine testing and just slice a rasher of fat out of the suspect's bacon, eh? It is true that some substances (including a lot of vitamins) are stored in fatty tissue, but they are stored there in small amounts and slowly. Furthermore, when the fat is later burned the substance remains behind and goes back into the blood stream. The substance doesn't "burn up" along with the fat. The liver and kidneys take care of most of the impurities by cleaning them out of the blood; impurities are not removed by "cycling" of fat.
-- Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
jamie - 28 May 2004 21:25 GMT > Diabetic humans and cats do run too high because of insufficient > insulin. However, the rebound effect (i.e., going too low) is very > unusual. In fact it is more common among chronic hypoglycemics, who > are not at all diabetic. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of vets who don't recommend home monitoring of bg, and it's difficult to get an accurate curve in a veterinary clinic, because stress raises bg. My vet wanted me to just give my cat 1 unit insulin twice a day, and didn't think home monitoring his bg was necessary. But I started testing him the day after he came home, and on the new diet, he was staying within normal bg levels without insulin. If I'd given him the insulin, he probably would have had hypo seizures.
 Signature jamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com)
"There's a seeker born every minute."
Jim D - 25 Jun 2004 13:50 GMT Marek -
Do you have any medical reference sources for your statements, particularly about blood sugar being stored in fat cells? Your statements about blood sugar being directly absorbed into and stored by fat cells is completely contrary to established medical facts. Please stop misleading people by spreading false information. Please read the entire response below so you can learn the truth.
In simple terms the facts are: When blood sugar (glucose) is too high, the pancreas releases insulin which causes cells to increase their intake of glucose and the liver to convert excess glucose to glycogen. Glycogen is then stored in the liver and can be stored in muscle tissue. Excess glycogen is converted to triglycerides by the liver, which are then released into the blood and stored as fat in adipose cells (fat cells). When blood sugar is too low, the pancreas releases glucogen which causes the liver to convert stored glycogen back into glucose and release the glucose into the blood stream for metabolism. Glucose is absorbed into and metabolized by all types of the body's cells, except for fat cells (adipose cells). The body does not *store* any significant amounts of glucose (blood sugar) anywhere, certainly not in fat cells.
In simple terms: The National Science Foundation and the National Institutes for Health have published several studies, and articles have been published in various medical journals, concluding that intake of as little as 2 tablespoons of olive oil daily can significantly reduce the incidence of breast cancer in women. I'll leave it to the astute reader to draw their own conclusions about why the intake of oil reduces cancer in fatty tissue, or to go find the published studies themselves.
About insulin and the production of body fat in detail: Energy ingested as fat beyond that needed for current energy demands is stored in adipose tissue. In addition, carbohydrate and protein consumed in the diet can be converted to fat. Energy ingested as carbohydrate can be stored as glycogen in the liver and muscle. Carbohydrate can also be converted to triglycerides primarily in the liver and transferred to adipose tissue for storage. Amino acids from ingested proteins are used for new protein synthesis or they can be converted to carbohydrate and fat.
Fatty acids, in the form of triglycerides or free fatty acids bound to albumin, are ingested in the diet or synthesized by the liver (described above). Very little synthesis of free fatty acids occurs in the adipocytes. Triglycerides are the most significant source of fatty acids, because this is the form in which dietary lipids are assembled by the gut and liver. Triglycerides made up of long chain fatty acids, in the form of chylomicrons (from intestinal absorption) or lipoproteins (from hepatic synthesis), are hydrolyzed to glycerol and free fatty acids by an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase (LPL). Lipoprotein lipase is synthesized in adipocytes and secreted into adjacent endothelial cells. Chylomicrons and lipoproteins (very low density lipoproteins) contain C-ll apoprotein, which activates LPL. Free fatty acids are taken up by adipocytes in a concentration-dependent manner by a transmembrane transport protein. Once inside the adipocyte, fatty acids enter a common pool made up of both incoming and outgoing fatty acids. Fatty acids that are stored in the adipose tissue must first combine with coenzyme A to form a thioester and then they are re-esterified in a stepwise manner to triglycerides. Glucose is the primary source of glycerol for this re-esterification process. Only a small amount of glycerol released, when triglycerides are hydrolyzed by LPL, can be reused by adipocytes to form alpha glycerol phosphate to be used for trigyceride assembly. Most glycerol is returned to the circulation.
Insulin, a hormone secreted by the beta cells of the pancreas, plays a predominant role in the lipogenic process. The net effect of insulin is to enhance storage and block mobilization and oxidation of fatty acids. Insulin exerts its effect by stimulating LPL formation, so that circulating triglycerides are hydrolyzed and free fatty acids can enter the adipocyte. Insulin is also required for the transport of glucose, which is needed for re-esterification of the triglycerides once inside the adipocyte. Finally, the conversion of glucose to fatty acids is accomplished by insulin's activation of several enzymes.
Lipolysis is the chemical decomposition and release of fat from adipose tissue. This process predominates over lipogenesis when additional energy is required. The triglycerides within the adipocyte are acted upon by a multi-enzyme complex called hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), which hydrolyzes the triglyceride into free fatty acids and glycerol. These lipases act consecutively on triglycerides, diglycerides, and monoglycerides. Triglyceride lipase regulates the rate of lipolysis, because its activity is low.
Once triglycerides are hydrolyzed to fatty acids and glycerol, fatty acids enter the common free fatty acid pool where they may be re-esterified, undergo beta-oxidation (metabolic degradation), or be released into the circulation as substrates for skeletal muscle, cardiac muscle, and liver. If the fatty acids are to undergo beta-oxidation for ATP production, fatty acids move from the adipocytes into the blood and are carried to the tissues that can use them as an energy source. Long-chain fatty acids enter the cells of these tissues by passive diffusion, and their rate of uptake is proportional to their difference in concentration inside and outside of the cell. Once inside the cells, beta-oxidation begins with "activation", that is, the formation of thioesters with coenzyme A. This activation step converts the fatty acids to a form that is more amenable to the successive biochemical changes that ultimately result in ATP formation.
Insulin reduces mobilization of fatty acids from adipose tissue by inhibiting triglyceride lipase. The mechanism of this inhibition may be through a decrease in cyclic AMP which in turn results in an inhibition of cyclic-AMP-dependent protein kinase. This suppression of lipolysis lowers the rate of fatty acid delivery to the liver and to peripheral tissues. The consequence of fewer fatty acids to the liver is a reduction in the formation of ketoacids (e.g., ketones). Insulin also stimulates the use of ketoacids by peripheral tissues, preventing an accumulation of these acids in the blood.
Extracted from articles published by:
Ann L. Albright and Judith S. Stern Department of Nutrition and Internal Medicine University of California at Davis Davis, CA USA
> >In a diabetic cat, for example, the blood sugar would tend to spike up to an > >abnormally high level after eating , stay high for a while, and then drop [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > -- > Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here. Laura R. - 25 Jun 2004 18:07 GMT circa Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:50:46 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Jim D (jimd1212003@yahoo.com) said,
> Please stop misleading people by > spreading false information. Please read the entire response below so you > can learn the truth. I, for one, stopped reading here since it seemed that you were more interested in slamming Marek than in providing useful information.
Laura
 Signature Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes. -Oscar Wilde
James Marz - 21 May 2004 16:50 GMT > > Our cat briefly suffered from seizures and motor control problems when she > > became diabetic and was given too much insulin. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hugh Jardon You should have your vet test you for a brain, apparently you are lacking one.
Kalyahna - 21 May 2004 03:23 GMT > Hi all, one of my cats has been having seizures. I noticed a month or > so ago that she was accidentally bumping into objects, and thought, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Hugh Jardon My girl has ideopathic epilepsy - in other words, no known cause. Thankfully all but one of her seizures have been very mild. She was on phenobarbital for close to two years before being weaned off of it, and has had no fits since. Valium is also a possible drug. Do your research on the diazepam and possible side effects. Most vets will encourage you to eventually wean your cat off of the medication, as in some cases, if the treatment goes long enough, suddenly not having it can -cause- the seizures (chemical dependency in cats, you know). If you notice her having a fit, turn off the lights, turn off anything that makes noise. Quiet and darkness can help the cat relax and shorten the fit. Try to keep a running mental time of the seizure. Three minutes is the danger zone: at three minutes, there can be brain damage from which the animal may never recover. I imagine that during a grand mal seizure, however, that the danger zone might come up faster.
My girl has only had the one grand mal, as I said, and that was in the carrier on a three hour drive. That's terrifying. Her petit mals were really only a loss of coordination and a lack of ability to stand. She'd sprawl on the floor, purring like mad, stretched on her side. Turning off the lights and just petting her and talking to her quietly always seemed to help her come out of it faster.
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