Sethran? Misdirected aggression again

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teri - 21 May 2004 03:25 GMT

She knows a lot about it, but anyone may chime in.
I might just be writing for therapy though.

Jewel is in attack mode again right now.
I had been sitting outside and a neighborhood cat climbed on my lap.
Jewel knows the sight and the smell of this cat, in fact earlier in
the day he "Simba" also took a nap on my lap, and everything was fine
when I went in the house. But this time Jewel was laying right in
front of the front door as I abruptly opened it and walked into the
house. I know I scared her by that, and on top of it I must have
smelled like a big Simba, plus he almost tried to poke his head in the
door as I walked in. Jewel started the caterwauling, screaming,
yowling, and hissing, growling, etc. She attempted to attack me, and
kept me pinned to the inside of the front door for quite a while. I
finally got in a few feet and called a neighbor to come over. She had
no desire to attack him, and he kind of herded her up to a bedroom.
That was two and a half hours ago. I just tried to slide a bowl of
food and water in the room, and Jewel screamed louder than I ever
heard, and attacked the door like she was trying to tear it down.
Needless to say I couldn't get the water or food in.
I know that I need to just leave her be. The room is quiet and the
light is off.
It is hard but I will completely stay away until morning. But when I
do go to the room, should I talk to her first thru the door, crack it
a bit and talk, just open it?? It is hard to do any of those things
just calmly and like nothing is wrong, but I know my fear does not
help.
And it scares me for her so much, to see the little girl who tip-toes
on her hind legs when she comes up to me, or drops down and rolls on
her back to have her belly rubbed being in this kind of state.

Thanks,
Teri

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Mary - 21 May 2004 05:16 GMT

>But when I
>do go to the room, should I talk to her first thru the door, crack it
>a bit and talk, just open it?? It is hard to do any of those things
>just calmly and like nothing is wrong, but I know my fear does not
>help.

My cat went through a misdirected aggression phase when there was a stray cat
running around and spraying on my windows. It drove Boots nuts, then he'd
attack me in the middle of the night lunging at my head and tearing into it
with his claws and teeth. I'd wake up shocked and bleeding all over the place
trying to hold my head so I wouldn't ruin the carpet. I then made it so my cat
could not see or smell the other cat. I also tried to shoo it away. You need to
shoo that neighborhood cat away. Don't pet it, scare it away, close the blinds
so your cat can't see him, wipe the spray off the windows and doors so your cat
can't smell him. You could also ask your vet for some valium for him. Give your
cat a good long time to calm down. Then slowly talk to it soothingly before
opening the door, open it a crack then more as the cat appears calm. Don't do
anything to work him up like playing rough, chasing, rubbing the belly too
hard. Just try to keep him calm.

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gswork - 21 May 2004 10:38 GMT

> >But when I
> >do go to the room, should I talk to her first thru the door, crack it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> anything to work him up like playing rough, chasing, rubbing the belly too
> hard. Just try to keep him calm.

We have a cat that can be very aggressive toward other cats but not
toward us. Does your cat (both owners) get outside much? I've
noticed our cat tours the immediate area, perhaps 'replacing' any
smells with her own and that might settle her. Just a guess from
observation though. She can just about bear the neighbours cat as
long as the other cat keeps a suitable distance, which the other cat
wisely does.

Our cat appears happiest when having equal access to the house and the
immediate surrounding area, she's not a wanderer, but i think she
needs to know she can go out and reclaim some territory now and then.
If anyone in the home smells of other cats she just 'replaces' the
offending smell by rubbing herself on the visitor.

I wouldn't feel confident advising anything though, just sharing some
other experiences

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teri - 21 May 2004 13:29 GMT

>My cat went through a misdirected aggression phase when there was a stray cat
>running around and spraying on my windows. It drove Boots nuts, then he'd
>attack me in the middle of the night lunging at my head and tearing into it
>with his claws and teeth. I'd wake up shocked and bleeding all over the place
>trying to hold my head so I wouldn't ruin the carpet.

** ohh, too funny - the carpet part only, of course**

>I then made it so my cat
>could not see or smell the other cat. I also tried to shoo it away. You need to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>anything to work him up like playing rough, chasing, rubbing the belly too
>hard. Just try to keep him calm.

Well... she did a lot of meowing-crying overnite while in the room.
It sounded like the usual cry she has if she has to be closed in her
room for some reason (very rare). Around 3:30 I figured she sounded
like the aggressive part had ended, so I opened the door a crack - and
the scream and door attack happened again. I did manage to toss a few
pieces of hard food in, and she continued to growl and hiss while she
chewed them. At 7:30 this morning I caught the same neighbor who
helped last nite on his way to work (ok I sat out on the porch waiting
for him), and he opened the door to her room slowly while I was around
the corner. Jewel came out slowly and walked around a bit timid, but
not aggressive. I went up to her after a few minutes and she had a
soft purr. By now she as eaten a little, gotten on a windowsill or
two, and is quietly checking out the house.

I certainly agree that I am not going to be petting cool ole Simba
anymore, I think it is strange he has never before had any effect on
her, (he is around a lot and I pet him alot) so I think that it was a
combination of me startling her when I came in the door, plus Simba's
scent. So three times now this has happened when I had just handled
other cats, and once with noise. Two episodes where pretty mild, she
just followed me around while yowling hissing and growling, and two
where she screamed and tried to launch full scale attacks which had me
cornered and rendered motionless until she was contained - for those
she didn't "come down" for at least 6 hours.
And two of the big and one small episode have all happened in the past
three months.

I am now thinking about medication for her, but of course am afraid of
the other effects they may have on her, along with side effects.
Any thought on meds? I know Sethran used Valium for a while.

Again, thank you.
Teri
and Jewel and Seamus.

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MaryL - 21 May 2004 15:33 GMT

> I certainly agree that I am not going to be petting cool ole Simba
> anymore, I think it is strange he has never before had any effect on
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Teri
> and Jewel and Seamus.

I think you have written about some previous episodes with both Jewel and
Seamus. Did you ever try Feliway? I would certainly try that (using
several of the plug-in dispensers) before I would move in the direction of
medication. Also, do you have any way in which you could keep other cats
out of your yard? Some cats do manifest misdirected aggression, even after
years of seeing other cats -- and yours have shown this tendency on other
occasions (such as the time you dropped something when coming upstairs, and
Jewel apparently had such an episode). If your yard is fenced, it is
possible to reinforce it with an outward-facing apparatus at the top to keep
other cats out. Here are some illustrations of methods used to keep cats
*in*; reverse the idea to keep cats *out.*
<http://www.lisaviolet.com/cathouse/backyard.html and
http://www.catfencein.com/> I have seen some sites where inward-facing
fencing is available commercially, but it would be a lot less expensive to
do it yourself or hire a neighborhood "jack of all trades" to do it for you.
If you do not have a fence, there is a Scarecrow motion-activated sprinkler
that some people use <http://www.biconet.com/critter/sprinkler.html>.

MaryL

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teri - 21 May 2004 19:00 GMT

>I think you have written about some previous episodes with both Jewel and
>Seamus. Did you ever try Feliway? I would certainly try that (using
>several of the plug-in dispensers) before I would move in the direction of
>medication.

Yeah, medicating her is definitely not my first choice, but we also
can't live walking on egg shells and in constant fear of triggering
her.
I can't say that I am convinced Feliway does any good with our guys,
but I have had diffusers on both levels of the house for ... maybe a
year, I can't remember. I do appreciate that suggestion because I
would get them if I didn't have them already.

>Also, do you have any way in which you could keep other cats
>out of your yard? Some cats do manifest misdirected aggression, even after
>years of seeing other cats --

Ok, good to know that, but unfortunately I can't put any fence up. I
maybe could screen in the front porch and get away with that, but I
have tried to figure out how to do the rest, like in front of the
windows, but that won't work. We are in a little block of row homes.

>If you do not have a fence, there is a Scarecrow motion-activated sprinkler
>that some people use <http://www.biconet.com/critter/sprinkler.html>.

That is possibly feasible. Plus the one neighbor would appreciate
that too since the sight of Simba causes their cat to attack whoever
is closest to him. Although their cat goes for the one vicious lunge
and is done with it, not near the extent of Jewel's reaction.
Unfortunately the sidewalk is pretty close and Simba walks by a lot
and can be seen in all directions from the windows.

In my research I think that her misplaced aggression episodes are
comprised of both fear aggression and territorial aggression.
Although she never has gotten aggressive in a normal fashion she is
very timid. Like if there is a new pair of sneakers laying in the
living room, she will take 5 minutes sneaking up on it and finally bat
it and jump half a foot high because she is afraid it will bat back.
Or when something loud is dropped, or a door bangs really hard next
door, or any form of loud sudden noise occurs, both cats react pretty
strongly for a few seconds - flee, puff, panicked look in their eyes.
Seamus always then acts spooked for a while, but has no aggression
whatsoever, Jewel *usually* will calm right down on her own, or with
one little pet. And as far as being territorial, if Seamus is on a
window she wants to be on, she will just go up to him, growl and whack
him a few times and he will get down. Or she might just walk by him
while he is laying on the floor and do the same thing. So, even if I
could eliminate all chance of any other cat disturbance, there is no
way to prevent the fear... factor.
Anyway, this morning Jewel was very timid and checking things out very
closely when she came out of her room, let me hold her and comb her,
purred a bit, then for no reason that I could even tell, she started
to stalk, yowl, growl, etc, at me whenever I moved a muscle. For now
though she finally looks comfortable like I think she is completely
over it (sure hope so).

Sorry this is so long, like I said, therapy.
Oh, and I do have a call to their vet to discuss things.
Thanks again,
Teri

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MaryL - 21 May 2004 19:22 GMT

> >I think you have written about some previous episodes with both Jewel and
> >Seamus. Did you ever try Feliway? I would certainly try that (using
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> Thanks again,
> Teri

Teri,

I wonder if you would be interested in the Tufts University School of
Veterinary Medicine PETFAX program. PETFAX is a "remote" consulting program
for behavioral problems (that is, via telephone or fax). I think the
current fee is $87.00. I paid for this program on behalf of my sister, and
they did advise Prozac in her case. We completed an extensive questionnaire
first (including medical history). The basic fee includes three 15-minute
consultations. They cannot give a prescription for Prozac, but they can
give advice on feasibility and dosage; then your own vote would write the
prescription.

Contact information for PETFAX --
URL = http://www.tufts.edu/vet/petfax/index.html
Phone = 1-508-887-4640
MaryL
(take out the litter to reply)

Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'<
http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly)
http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")

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teri - 21 May 2004 21:01 GMT

Thanks. I definitely am going to keep that, and it is a good
consideration. Even though the M.A. is not behavioural, maybe the
underlying fear and stuff could be worked on to prevent it being
triggered. For curiosity's sake, what was the problem with your
sister's cat, and was it helped with the Prozac?
Teri

(vet's office just called back, appt. for tomorrow to check for any
"medical issues"). She hates going there so bad, cries the whole way
~10 minutes that seems like 10 hours, and when she is there she just
lays completely flat on the table hoping they don't see her :-(. But
I know it has to be done)

>I wonder if you would be interested in the Tufts University School of
>Veterinary Medicine PETFAX program. PETFAX is a "remote" consulting program
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly)
>http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")

Reply to this Message

MaryL - 21 May 2004 21:16 GMT

> For curiosity's sake, what was the problem with your
> sister's cat, and was it helped with the Prozac?
> Teri

Yes, Prozac did work for my sister's cat. She has 3 cats. Unfortunately,
they were all declawed as kittens; and her experience almost precisely
mimics the statistics for declawed cats. One of her cats is a friendly,
loving cat -- the laid-back type where you would think there would be no
behavioral issues. However, he started to spray - and spray - and spray,
etc. He sprayed everywhere, both horizontal and vertical surfaces. Just to
make it worse, he also has a history of UTI; so it was always important to
have frequent medical exams and distinguish between spraying and
inappropriate urination. The odor was truly obnoxious. She worked through
this for 2 years, including a long trip to a holistic vet. She had also
tried other prescription medications, such as buspar and amitriptyline.
Nothing worked, and the spraying got worse and worse. However, the Prozac
that Tufts recommended really has been effective. As far as I know, there
have been no further spraying episodes since then. She is also using a
different litter (one specifically formulated to attract "problem" cats),
and that seems to have resolved the inappropriate urination issues except
when UTI is a problem. I suspect that the fact that he is declawed has also
contributed to that problem.

MaryL

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Jim D - 21 May 2004 14:07 GMT

Your kindness toward other cats is "misdirected affection" if it results in
your cat going a bit berserk. Cat's are HIGHLY dependent on their sense of
smell to handle and react to their environment. By getting the other cat's
smell on yourself, and then startling him/her, you confused your kitty. Not
fair to then blame your cat for being upset! To your cat, you were just a
big animal that scared it and didn't smell right. If you were in your cat's
paws, you'd have spit and screamed and clawed too. No "misdirected
aggression" here - just misdirected responsibility.

Your story reminds me of a situation I was told about by a secretary a few
years ago. She was complaining about her young boy being overly energetic
the previous evening, difficult to get to go to bed, and then not going to
sleep until late. When I asked the simple question, "What did you give him
to eat or drink after dinner?" I was astonished at the answer. She'd given
him a can of Coca Cola and a chocolate donut - both of which contain the
stimulant caffeine. She then expected her son to be quiet and go to sleep!
In short - she dosed him up with stimulants and then was ready to punish him
for acting stimulated!!

When you "dosed" your kitty with stimulants by startling it and bringing
"other cat" smells into its environment, you shouldn't have been surprised
that the kitty got upset. I think you're the one who's responsible for the
problem here, not your cat. Consider yourself scolded. Don't inflict such
confusing sensory signals on your cat, and I'll bet your kitty will be just
fine.

Moreover, if your cat has any problems with its eyesight, it relies even
more on its hearing and sense of smell to deal with its environment. If
your cat has given you any indications that it isn't seeing clearly, then
you really have to refrain from doing things that will confuse its senses of
smell and hearing.

Psychiatric drugs for your cat - humph! From your kitty's point of view,
you acted in a threatening (and IMHO, thoughtless) manner. Try
understanding how cats live and react to survive, and try treating your
kitty like a cat instead of expecting your cat to understand you (no matter
what you do), and everything will be fine.

> She knows a lot about it, but anyone may chime in.
> I might just be writing for therapy though.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Thanks,
> Teri

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James Marz - 21 May 2004 16:48 GMT

> She knows a lot about it, but anyone may chime in.
> I might just be writing for therapy though.

*chime* *chime* Lady you need psycho-therapy and possibly a labotomy.
I have never read such drivel in my life. You could be suffering from
the 3rd stage of cat scrath fever, better see a doctor soon!

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