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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2007Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering?
Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? I just really want to be informed and cover all bases. All the information I have gathered or articles that I have read thus far do not claim that any particular risk is 100% guaranteed if you do not neuter your cat. The only real problems I have heard that beckon neutering are testosterone and spraying -- that it calms aggression and lessens marking their territory. Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not neutering?  Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. >Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not >neutering? Intact males tend to be more agressive and get into fights if not neutered. They will try to escape. If you let them outside, they will end up n more fights, so you can expect more vet expenses associated with those injuries. Intact males are also harder to keep at a good weight and good coat. They tend to be skinnier, and they can get a condition called stud tail which means that they release a lot of a hormone just above the tail, making it really greasy. They definitely require more work, and they can be a real pain in terms of behavior and mess. We had an intact male for about 2 years before we neutered him. He was horrible. He attacked the other cats and dogs anytime they tried to get on his person's lap. He sprayed all over the place. We didn't have outdoor cats before him, but with all the damage, we let him go out during the day to spray outside instead. Our neighbor stole him and gave him back. He also attacked raccoons (they backed down from him). I think he must have gone into their territory, because he disappeared when he was about 4 years old. We never found him. I think his life would have been a lot different if we had just neutered him. Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard breeder and wanted to keep him intact. (She did quit after his first litter.) Intact females will eventually go in heat all the time, which can drive a person insane. They are also more likely to get cancer. And they will also try to escape more, especially if there are males hanging around outside, trying to get at her. If you are planning to breed him please have him tested for diseases that can be present even if they don't show. Which tests will depend on the breed. Just about any cat should have thir heart checked. Many breeds have genetic testing that can show the likliehood of heart and kidney problems. There are real risks of reproductive cancers if a cat is not neutered or spayed. This is in addition to the risks of the cat losing their home because of the uncontrollable yowling and spraying and fighting. These behaviors work in the wild; when we ask the cat to stay with us and be our pet, it's a favor to the cat to keep them from expressing their wishes in this way. If we wonder what the cat thinks, it should be clear; a life in an environment they are not made for (our modern civilization) that is nasty, mean, brutish, and short, or a pampered life as a beloved pet. They don't miss it. As human as they act, there are no cat porn magazines and they lose all interest in unhomely behaviors. Response to wayofcats@gmail.com: > There are real risks of reproductive cancers if a cat is not > neutered or spayed. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They don't miss it. As human as they act, there are no cat porn > magazines and they lose all interest in unhomely behaviors. HAHAHA! Thanks. That was um... informative to say the least. Definitely makes sense too. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. Response to Meghan Noecker <friesian@zoocrewphoto.com>: >>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not >>neutering? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > will end up n more fights, so you can expect more vet expenses > associated with those injuries. Makes sense. <snip> > We had an intact male for about 2 years before we neutered him. (1) > He was horrible. He attacked the other cats and dogs anytime they > tried to get on his person's lap. He sprayed all over the place. Ugh... so it is highly likely that his constant attacks are due to him having his doo-dads. *sigh* <snip> > I think he must have gone into their territory, because he > disappeared when he was about 4 years old. We never found him. (1) I think I'm confused. He backed down raccoons WITHOUT his doo- dads? Or this was before he lost 'em, or... ? > I think his life would have been a lot different if we had just > neutered him. Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard > breeder and wanted to keep him intact. (She did quit after his > first litter.) What is a backyard breeder? I'm guessing someone who is not an official breeder? Or something like that? <snip> > If you are planning to breed him <snip> Ooooh, HECK no! I can hardly stand one -- especially THIS one. Thanks for all the great tips though. That's definitely got me one step closer to the ultimate decision. I want him to be so much better than what he is but I hate that I have to mutilate him to do it. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. >Response to Meghan Noecker <friesian@zoocrewphoto.com>: >> I think he must have gone into their territory, because he >> disappeared when he was about 4 years old. We never found him. > >(1) I think I'm confused. He backed down raccoons WITHOUT his doo- >dads? Or this was before he lost 'em, or... ? We waited too long to get him neutered. He was one of the rare ones that does not improve. It is only about 4% that do not improve, and usually only when they are neutered really late. He did not stop spraying, and he was very territorial, not just of space, but of people. He would attack any cat, dog, or turtle that walked near my mom. >> I think his life would have been a lot different if we had just >> neutered him. Unfortunately, at that time, my mom was a backyard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >What is a backyard breeder? I'm guessing someone who is not an >official breeder? Or something like that? Backyard breeders do not do the health testing that should be done. Theywill typically breed any pair of cats, dogs, etc that look like the breed they want. So, in my mom's case, she had a Siamese and she responded to an ad for a Siamese male for stud. She did have papers on her own cat or care about papers on the male cat. Papers don't make a cat good enough to breed, but they do show the pedigree of that animal, and the idea is to know the health, conformation, and temperment of those who came before. As a backyard breeder, she knew nothing of the history of cats involved. No idea the temperment of the male. No idea of his health. And no tests were done on either. Just because a cat looks healthy, doesn't mean they don't have a heart condition or other problem. Many problems don't show up in the first year. When breeding dogs, hips cannot be certified until they are at least 2 years old. There are also genetic tests for some common problems in various breeds. For example, they have found the main cause of heart problems in Maine Coons. Ethical breeders had their cats tested for the gene and stopped breeding any cat with a double copy of that gene. unfortunately, the gene is so common, they would narrow the gene pool to much if they only breed negative cats. So, the goal right now is to make sure that those cats with one copy of the gene are only bred to negative cats. Then, the number of cats with the gene will go down, and eventually, they can breed it out completely. But in the meantime, they won't produce any cats with a double set. I know of several breeders who altered all their cats and had to start over. They took the financial loss and did the right thing. Backyard breeders don't even bother with the tests. They save the money, and just breed to sell. >I want him to be so much better than what he is but I hate that I >have to mutilate him to do it. It's actually a very mild procedure, and most males are back to normal the same day, as if nothing happened. None of mine ever had any problems. Even my female removed her own stitches the next day and was fine. Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (11/16/2007 6:40 PM): > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not > neutering? Ah, NOW you've done it. Long thread, coming up! I think you're looking at it backwards though. What risk is there in getting them neutered, aside from the slight danger inherent in any operation? Not much, I think, though I've never had a male. But it sounds like an intact male makes a very poor housecat! The danger for males seems to be more in how testosterone changes their behavior, than in the health risks (like higher risk of certain cancers, I think). I bet if a survey was done, intact males don't live nearly as long as neutered ones. It's the same with horses. If he's not breeding material, neuter him. If you don't plan on breeding, neuter. Your neighbors will thank you as well! jmc Response to jmc <NOnewsgroupsSPAM@NOjodiBODY.HOMEus>: >> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in >> not neutering? > > Ah, NOW you've done it. Long thread, coming up! Hehehe. Well, I DO try and think of good ones. Sometimes I forget to do my homework and sometimes I just don't understand -- so I definitely build up the good ones for you lads/lasses. > I think you're looking at it backwards though. What risk is there > in getting them neutered, aside from the slight danger inherent in > any operation? More than fair point. My only reasoning behind not doing it is I hate to cut things off of animals. I just don't believe anything that cannot communicate their desires should have their freedom manhandled in such a fashion as to lead to their ultimate appendage removal. That is why even after HORRIBLE attacks that Gabby still has his claws. The group let me in on what really happens in a declaw and when I was done crying I explained to the family it simply wasn't an option. > Not much, I think, though I've never had a male. But it sounds > like an intact male makes a very poor housecat! Right. But it does look like I am going to have to make a choice in this direction. I figured I could handle the spraying and was basically using no health risks as a crutch to not do it. > The danger for males seems to be more in how testosterone changes > their behavior, than in the health risks (like higher risk of > certain cancers, I think). I bet if a survey was done, intact > males don't live nearly as long as neutered ones. It seems though that aggression really is a number one reason to neuter... so I don't know... Thanks for the tips, jmc. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. Suddenly, without warning, -Lost exclaimed (11/17/2007 7:53 AM): > Response to jmc <NOnewsgroupsSPAM@NOjodiBODY.HOMEus>: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > manhandled in such a fashion as to lead to their ultimate appendage > removal. Declawing is very different than neutering. > That is why even after HORRIBLE attacks that Gabby still has his > claws. The group let me in on what really happens in a declaw and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > It seems though that aggression really is a number one reason to > neuter... so I don't know... Not really. Health, longevity, how your house smells... and I forgot to mention, but another poster has, that your intact male WILL create more kittens; more homeless cats; more pressure on shelters, and essentially more cats euthanized only because there's too many to find homes for. If you are not breeding him, there is absolutely NO reason for him to keep his jewels. He won't miss 'em and you'll be glad you did! > Thanks for the tips, jmc. You are welcome. jmc >Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not >neutering? There is a real risk of more kittens. There are already plenty of cats around that have to be killed, so why increase the numbers? If we ever have a cat shortage, feel free to let some breed. Response to dgk <dgk@somewhere.com>: >>Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not >>neutering? > > There is a real risk of more kittens. There are already plenty of > cats around that have to be killed, so why increase the numbers? > If we ever have a cat shortage, feel free to let some breed. I was referring to health risks and made not one mention of letting Gabby breed. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not > neutering? cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering Female OVARIAN CYSTADENOMA cystic tumor, often benign but can grow to a moderate size. Possible cure with ovariohysterectomy. Preventable by spaying. EPITHELIAL (i.e., carcinoma), and sex-cord stromal (i.e., granulosa cell tumor, Sertoli-Leydig cell tumor, thecoma, and luteoma) tumors. Preventable by spaying OVARIAN ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor of the ovary. Can be prevented by spaying female cats. GERM CELL TUMOR: include dysgerminomas and teratomas, tumors from embryonic-type tissues in the ovaries. Malignant. Ovariohysterectomy, chemotherapy and radiation will be needed for a cure. Preventable by spaying. UTERINE LEIOMYOMA: the most common uterine tumor found in female cats. This tumor originates from smooth muscle within the uterus, and is usually benign. Usually no outward symptoms are visible. Ovariohysterectomy usually produces a complete cure. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. UTERINE LEIOMYOSARCOMA: malignant cousin to leiomyoma, will invade and spread inside the abdomen, often before diagnosis. Can cause notable abdominal enlargement among other symptoms. Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy poorly effective. Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. UTERINE FIBROSARCOMA: very invasive malignant cancer, more common in other areas besides the uterus. Can be treated if caught early but often it will have already invaded other tissues (metastasize) before diagnosis. Ovariohysterectomy and chemotherapy are possible but mostly ineffective if metastasis has occurred. . Preventable with spaying except in very rare circumstances. UTERINE ENDOMETRIAL ADENOCARCINOMA: A very common uterine tumor, usually occuring in old cats. This tumor will metastasize but will remain inside of the uterine body to make complete removal possible if caught early. This tumor can metastasize to lungs, heart, abdominal organs and the brain. Preventable by spaying. MAMMARY GLAND NEOPLASIA: the third most common type of tumor in female cats comprising as many as 20% of all tumors the queen may have. Can be almost completely prevented by spaying before the first heat as these tumors are highly hormone dependent. Cats spayed after 2.5 years of age have a risk or incident rate 7 times higher than cats spayed before the first cycle. Most tumors occur in cats 9-11 years of age and are found primarily in the breasts closer to the tail. Male SERTOLI CELL TUMOR: usually small and benign but can grow very large as part of a retained testicle. Can produce estrogen, which is the most severe effect of the tumor, causing liver and bone marrow damage. Often curable if caught early or chemotherapy may be needed. In cats with high estrogen levels surgery can be risky. Neutering is preventative. PROSTATIC ADENOCARCINOMA: malignant tumor, seen more often in cats that have not been neutered. This tumor causes enlargement of the prostate gland; prostate gland enlargement will often be quite irregular. Also, this tumor can cause urinary tract blockage, weakness, pain, bleeding from the penis, and weight loss. Spreads to areas inside the pelvis and sometimes other organs. There is no treatment effective towards a cure but neutering may slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males, neutering considered preventative. Response to "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>: >> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in >> not neutering? > > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering <snip information on spaying> > Male > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males, > neutering considered preventative. Hi, Phil! I was hoping that you might drop by for this one. Are either of these 2 male afflictions a common occurrence? And I'll take it by your expertise and the information you just provided that you do suggest neutering? Even if the kitty is in a controlled environment with no possible chance of breeding? And is it at all possible for his mood to ever mellow out to the point that neutering may not be necessary? Thanks for all that great information, Phil. You and your site are a godsend. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Hi, Phil! I was hoping that you might drop by for this one. Are > either of these 2 male afflictions a common occurrence? Common enough if your cat devcelops either. It really doesn't matter because they're both unnecessary risks- and any unnecessary risk is exesessive and unaceptable. > And I'll take it by your expertise and the information you just > provided that you do suggest neutering? Absolutely. Even if the kitty is in a > controlled environment with no possible chance of breeding? Absolutely. Besides, you can't guarantee he'll never ever get out. > And is it at all possible for his mood to ever mellow out to the > point that neutering may not be necessary? No. Neutered males are much calmer, more hygienic, much friendlier to other cats, tolerate handling better, give more affection, are more playful and like more attention than intact males. Neutering also significantly reduces male dominant aggression and territorial aggression. They're also less destructive. Not to mention they're happier. > Thanks for all that great information, Phil. You and your site are a > godsend. Thanks Response to "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>: >> Response to "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>: >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > matter because they're both unnecessary risks- and any unnecessary > risk is exesessive and unaceptable. <snip more good advice> All right then that settles it. I'll schedule the appointment Tuesday (when they're open next). Thanks again, Phil. You've been most helpful (as usual). Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > All right then that settles it. I'll schedule the appointment > Tuesday (when they're open next). Now you're on the right track! After he's neutered, it should be a lot easier to modify his behavior. All it takes is time, patience, persistence, and a whole 'lotta love and understanding. > Thanks again, Phil. You've been most helpful (as usual). You're welcome. > > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males, > neutering considered preventative. PYOMETRA! lilly had it. Sheelagh >"o"< > > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering > > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > PYOMETRA! Pyometra can become fatal very quickly if the uterus ruptures. > lilly had it. > Sheelagh >"o"< > > > cancers Preventable by Spaying/Neutering > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I wonder if anyone can help me with this one. Is it true that a vet is not able to operate / spay a female if she happens to be in call? I don't think there is a reason, but I just need to check. Vet's is closed & I'm sure someone here must know? I can't think of a reason why not- after all, some vets will consider spaying a pregnant female, so why not whilst in call? TIA, Sheelagh >"o"< Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" <silknsox@googlemail.com>: > I wonder if anyone can help me with this one. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can't think of a reason why not- after all, some vets will consider > spaying a pregnant female, so why not whilst in call? Sure they can. However it is not advisable because of inflammation and possibility for infection. Not to mention the hormonal changes that take place could affect the ability to heal -- no clue on that note though. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" <silkn...@googlemail.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am > kidding. No I am not. Thanks, <Grin>, I appreciate that very much. I have a female here that we are looking after. Her owner has asked us to get it done in the next week if it is possible- But she appears to be calling, so I wasn't sure whether to try & book her in, or not as the case might be.. I'll call them in the morning just to be certain, however, what you say does make perfect sense. They may just have to wait an extra few weeks before they get her home, because she has asked that she be rested first as well.... . They have kids (7-15yrs old), & don't want the poor little girl to be handled by any of them until she is well enough to be able to cope with it. I figure an extra 3 weeks would help out there. I know that as long as there are no complications, I just have to take her back after 10 days for the vet to check the scar site & ensure that all is well before discharging her. I'm sure they won't be too disappointed because it's what they want, & & I don't mind doing it. Sheelagh >"o"< On 17 Nov, 00:06, "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" <silkn...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > "-Lost" <maventheextrawo...@techie.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I know Phil :( To cut a very long story short, I noticed that Lilly was looking off colour, but nothing too specific. I took her straight down to the vet surgery where I was told that her anal glands were secreting a horrible ooze. I was asked to bring her back the following day, which I did. What happened between the Wednesday that I took her in for treatment, & the Friday morning, only the vet will ever know- either way, Lilly was not treated at all until the vet returned to work on the Friday morning. I got a call to say that Lilly was seriously ill & that they only had one hope of saving her, which was to remove her womb. I agreed instantly & she went ahead with the operation. Instead of costing me around $100 for a simple spay, which I has already asked her to do on the Wednesday, it suddenly became $1400!!!, & at the time I had no alternative other than to let her preform the operation, because Lilly was too ill to be moved. If this story helps stop one single person or cat going through what we did, then it was worth telling! It was a while back now, but I have never learned a harder lesson. It turned out that the vet had problems of her own which she attended to before her client's pet's. I was outraged at the time, but we managed to come to a mutual agreement before I took her to court. It was just enough to cover what it ended up costing us, with a bit for another rainy day... The moral of this story is, don't wait for the problem to come to you- deal with it before it ever becomes a problem. You end up with a much more loving, friendly clean cat, all for the sake of a few dollars when they are around 4-6 months old. It's so easy to get done, so if you can get it done- Do! Take my word for it . Sheelagh >"o"< Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" <silknsox@googlemail.com>: > If this story helps stop one single person or cat going through > what we did, then it was worth telling! It was a while back now, > but I have never learned a harder lesson. I've definitely got the hint. Preventative is all that matters. Thanks, Sheelagh. And sorry you had to go through that to understand it yourself. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "Sheelagh>\"o\"<" <silkn...@googlemail.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am > kidding. No I am not. It was my fault really. Had I got her spayed when I was advised to, it would never have come to that. It doesn't excuse the vet not treating her for 2 whole days whilst she was in thier care, & I didn't mean to frighten anyone- merely point out that it could have been avoided altogether. It was a hard lesson- But mostly I felt guilty because I know that what Lilly went through, was because of my failing, not her's. Thankfully she is fine, but it could so easily have been a different story. No one likes admitting their failings, but in this case it was avoidable. She was so ill! I think it would be the best thing for Gabby. I certainly can't think of any harm coming from neutering him. Good Luck by the way, Sheelagh >"o"< > > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > slow growth of the mass. This tumor is rarely seen in castrated males, > neutering considered preventative. What percentage of intact cats get cancer? In female rabbits studies over 80% develope some cancer of the reproductive system. In human studies virgin nuns have higher incident of cancer. Having babies reduces chance of cancer. >What percentage of intact cats get cancer? In female rabbits studies >over 80% develope some cancer of the reproductive system. In human >studies virgin nuns have higher incident of cancer. Having babies >reduces chance of cancer. That doesn't actually disprove the theory of altering. How many of those nuns received hysterectomies at a young age? You mentioned rabbits and nuns having a high rate of cancer. Both intact, correct? You need to compare the rate of cancer in intact people, rabbits, cats, etc vs altered examples of the same species. Even within cats, they have found that cats altered before the first heat have a lower rate of cancer than those altered later. And much better than those never altered. The real issue is the continuous cycle for no purpose. In other words, cats being bred tend to have a lower rate of cancer than those left intact but never being bred. But we don't want to produce a lot of unwanted kittens, so we opt to later them, which gives the lowest rate of health problems as an added bonus. > Are there any proven health risks associated with NOT neutering? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in not > neutering? The real danger is that he *will* get out. A queen in heat is detectable a *long* way off and as soon as those hormones start surging he'll be out the door like a shot before you even see him coming. Not being used to outdoors any more, and in his headlong rush to a rendevous, he'll be in danger of traffic, dogs, and all the other assorted dangers of the outdoors that people here will list over and over given half the change (the only reason I'm not is the arthritis in my hands). Even if he isn't killed by his adventure, he'll be adding to the overpopulation of cats the results in thousands of them being euthanized (or dying more horrible deaths outside) daily. Hugs, CatNipped Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: >> Am I not reading the right stuff or is there no REAL danger in >> not neutering? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > results in thousands of them being euthanized (or dying more > horrible deaths outside) daily. First, thank you for putting your always polite and nice spin on this. It sounded so much better coming from you. We really have gone to great lengths to insure he will not be able to breed. As an example, he has to be kenneled before anyone leaves or enters or when animals are let out or in. There isn't actually too much in and out, the door opens maybe 2 times a day. I know it sounds strange... I'm going to think on this a bit more and perhaps Phil will give me another shot of his medicinal information, but it seems that it will be the right choice if I hope to keep Gabby. ...and yes, you guessed it. He's up to mischief again. Remember that biting conversation we had? He was behind the small Betta aquariums and when I reached for him he bolted along the counter behind a larger aquarium housing one of our big scaly monsters so I had to reach behind it (since he was wedged as well). Although it looked like he would have had to break his neck to reach me, he turned his head almost 180 degrees and sunk his left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. It didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch <whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled away so it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt. I yelled and said, "I didn't put you behind that aquarium you arse!" Because it really seemed like he did it like, "Ack! I'm stuck! *bite bite munch munch*" As I washed my hand at the kitchen sink the bum rubbed all over my legs as if he was getting something. I found it *slightly* funny, although painful -- but he's biting too freely now. I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh? *sigh* Thanks, CatNipped. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. It > didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth > underneath my skin and then ripped away so I have a 3/4 inch > <whatever you call it sliding under the skin and being pulled away so > it slices it open>. And boy did it hurt. He sounds like one mean cat but maybe he will get better if you neuter him. I am afraid for your childnren. You could wear gloves to handle him Response to aloonafarida@yahoo.com: >> left top canine into the soft flesh between my index and thumb. >> It didn't go into the meat or fat, but it slid his ENTIRE tooth [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He sounds like one mean cat but maybe he will get better if you > neuter him. I am afraid for your childnren. Here's hoping! > You could wear gloves to handle him I joked at one point that we would have to buy some armor. Gloves were our second choice. The girls dug out their mittens and quickly found out they wouldn't work. So gardeners gloves it was. Thanks. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh? Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Neutering *might* help, but I wouldn't count on it. If you had not tried everything suggested (and then some) I'd probably advise you to just keep trying and wait till he grows up some. I might even suggest that if you didn't have children who are in danger. But you *have* tried your hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he *does* sounds like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried away in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing this, but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby, if at all possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live? Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one. Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him on, I'll pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help cats long distance in the past). If you do find someone who'll take him, please be sure to let them know he has a biting problem - it wouldn't be fair to the new owner if you didn't. My RB Bandit was a serious biter (which is how I know so much about treating cat bites). As much as I loved her, I don't know if I'd have kept her if I'd had children still at home. I adore all cats, and I put up with being savagely bitten for over 17 years because of it, but what I can accept for myself I would *NOT* accept for children. Good luck, and please let me know what you decide. Hugs, CatNipped > *sigh* > > Thanks, CatNipped. > you *have* tried your hardest, and your children *are* in danger, and he > *does* sounds like he's a serious biter, not just a kitten getting carried > away in play. I'll probably be flamed to hell and gone for writing this, > but it might be time for you to find a new home for Gabby, if at all > possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues where you live? > Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one. I agree with you but I dont think there will be a good home for him at Pet Smart. He is just one of the cats that cant live with people. Maybe he could be a barn cat. Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: >> I guess when it comes down to it I have my answer, huh? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > if at all possible. Do you have any no-kill shelters or rescues > where you live? Every PetsMart I've ever been in has one. Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him neutered and give it a little more time? I know it's hard to gauge but I really don't think he is a mean cat, it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do agree though that he is a serious biter. > Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him > on, I'll pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help > cats long distance in the past). If you do find someone who'll > take him, please be sure to let them know he has a biting problem > - it wouldn't be fair to the new owner if you didn't. I will too, depending on how much we're talking. (I have no clue what it costs to transport an animal.) But again, is it something that should wait until after a neuter to see if it helps? I can get it done in the next couple of weeks as there is never a long wait at the local vet. And if it is a major contributor to aggression I'd be really interested in trying it first. Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect? <snip> Thanks again, CatNipped. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it's just when he gets all crazy he gets ALL CRAZY. I do agree > though that he is a serious biter. Of course you should try. As I've said, none of us are there to truly gauge the situation, you are. Have you talked to your vet about this problem? There are some medical problems that can cause biting (one is a hypersensitivity to being touched). If you feel he is a calm, loving cat most of the time, then you would want to invest more time in changing this behavior. But if he continues to attack with no warning, and with pretty severe results then, as a mother, you need to take whatever means you need to in order to protect your children from a dangerous situation. If it is just over-aggressive play, the high-pitched "MEW" should have stopped him. However, I didn't mention (and probably should have) that the high-pitched "MEW" will not work if a cat is *deliberately* trying to harm his victim. And the bite results you've described seem to be of a more serious nature than would result from just over-aggressive play. There are some cats (my RB Bandit was one of them), who are just a bit psychotic - just like there are some humans who are. In that case, I really haven't heard of any means of treatment (if I had, I wouldn't have put up with 17+ years of biting injuries). >> Also, if there is someone in the group who is willing to take him >> on, I'll pitch in for transport (this group has found ways to help [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I will too, depending on how much we're talking. (I have no clue > what it costs to transport an animal.) In one case (in another, related, group) - people just volunteered to drive the kitty in a sort of "relay" race across the country. In that instance the only cost was gas. I wasn't involved in the instance here when people pitched in to get a cat to a new slave - maybe someone else was, folks? > But again, is it something that should wait until after a neuter to > see if it helps? That would be my recommendation if you've decided to have him neutered. > I can get it done in the next couple of weeks as there is never a > long wait at the local vet. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect? It will have some effect - the level of testosterone will decrease over the weeks after the neuter and his behavior will turn gentler. The only reason I don't think it will have a *major* effect is that an aggressive, intact tom will usually only be aggressive to another cat. The aggression towards humans is, I think, more a behavoral problem. But I'm not a vet, so I can't give you a difinitive answer to this question. Again, talk to your vet about this issue - it's one that they handle all the time. Hugs, CatNipped > <snip> > > Thanks again, CatNipped. >> Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him >> neutered and give it a little more time? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > severe results then, as a mother, you need to take whatever means you need > to in order to protect your children from a dangerous situation. All very good advice, CN. You know how I feel about cats being given up, but I know there are situations, like with aggressive cats and children, where they should be "rehomed." But my goodness he has to be neutered anyway, it's win-win for everyone including him. So why not try it? Response to "cybercat" <cyberpurrs@yahoo.com>: >>> Quick question... should I at least try first? That is, get him >>> neutered and give it a little more time? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > anyway, it's win-win for everyone including him. So why not try > it? It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the soonest I can get him snipped. And thanks for ALL the information CatNipped. I am definitely going to let the vet know that "he's just a kitten" has turned into "he enjoys a hard bite." And I'll ask about the Clomicalm as well. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is > the soonest I can get him snipped. Good move. I've been reading this, and I just can't even imagine the smell from the litterbox, or the spraying! > And thanks for ALL the information CatNipped. I am definitely > going to let the vet know that "he's just a kitten" has turned > into "he enjoys a hard bite." And I'll ask about the Clomicalm > as well. My Shamrock has been on Clomicalm (Clomipromine 75mg, though I probably give him only half that amount daily) for agressive behavior for close to 3 years now. He used to attack my legs, and still bites, but now he rarely breaks the skin. I once tried to ween him off of it when I thought he had calmed down, but he reverted to the same behavior that made me explore options in the first place. That's why he's still on it, but on a lower dose. My vet can only dispense it compounded, and it can be compounded flavored, but none of the flavors appealled to Shamrock, so I buy it unflavored and give it to him in a gelcap. Hard to do, and my vet is tickled that it works, but its all in the timing. It really has worked. I wouldn't normally advocate drugging a cat, but I think some really have issues that require it if they are going to live as a housecat. SignatureCheryl Response to Cheryl <jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com>: >> It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is >> the soonest I can get him snipped. >> > Good move. I've been reading this, and I just can't even imagine > the smell from the litterbox, or the spraying! OK, by spraying are we talking about the litter he sprays everywhere? Because there is normally litter spread in a 15 foot radius of the box. ; ) <snip> > flavored, but none of the flavors appealled to Shamrock, so I buy > it unflavored and give it to him in a gelcap. Hard to do, and my > vet is tickled that it works, but its all in the timing. Just for the record, where does one buy gel caps? > It really has worked. I wouldn't normally advocate drugging a cat, > but I think some really have issues that require it if they are > going to live as a housecat. I'm beginning to think this cat is going to make me violate every ethic I have about animals. HAHAHA! Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > OK, by spraying are we talking about the litter he sprays > everywhere? Because there is normally litter spread in a 15 > foot radius of the box. ; ) Spraying as in the territory marking that male cats (and females!) when they haven't been neutered. Stinky! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Just for the record, where does one buy gel caps? I get them at Whole Foods. I've bought 2 500ct bags in the last several years, and recently had to buy a new bag. I noticed the quality was really bad with this bag, wrote the company, and was told they had the same issue with gelcaps they supply to companies that fill them with medication, so they had some QA problems this last time. The gelcap dissolved so quickly that I wasn't able to use them with liquid medication, though I've been doing that for years. They said they identified the problem, but it would take a while for the corrected gelcaps to get to the market. Not surprising, they don't manufacture the gelcaps, but they buy them from a 3rd party. Probably from China, but I can't prove that. SignatureCheryl > It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the > soonest I can get him snipped. Super. I hope he calms down. He is lucky to have you to take such good care of him and put so much thought into his care. Response to "cybercat" <cyberpurrs@yahoo.com>: >> It's been settled for sure. I'm calling tomorrow to see when is the >> soonest I can get him snipped. > > Super. I hope he calms down. He is lucky to have you to take such > good care of him and put so much thought into his care. Thanks, cybercat. I appreciate it. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: >> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > your vet about this issue - it's one that they handle all the > time. Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would still make it a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn? Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that he could be aggressive with us? I mean, that would still make it > a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn? That's very possible, but you said you only rough-housed with him for a couple of weeks? I am really not trying to be a pessimist here, I think you still have *several* options to try. I just don't want to give you any false hope that there is an easy fix - this may be something you need to deal with for the rest of his life like I had to with Bandit. It's also very possible that with either medication or behavior modification you can stop it as Cheryl has experienced with her Shamrock. But your vet can help much more than I, so talk to him about this - most vets have lots of experience dealing with cases just like yours. As far as my experience with my "biter"... The good news is that once they are grown the attacks will decrease and may only happen if someone tries to interact with him when he doesn't want to. The other good news is that he has you for his slave. Not many people who weren't "cat people" from the get go would go to as much trouble as you have with Gabby. The effort you are willing to go to for him *will* pay off in the end, one way or another. Bless you for your kind heart. Hugs, CatNipped Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: >>>> Why do you think it wouldn't have any real effect? >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > to go to for him *will* pay off in the end, one way or another. > Bless you for your kind heart. Awwwww, you're trying to make me cry! HAHA. I surely appreciate the kind words but none of my efforts would have paid off as fruitfully as they have so far without the help of you and this no-BS-straight- to-the-point group. Everyone here made the learning curve substantially straighter -- without which I am certain Gabby would not have lasted. I'll post an update once we have a eunuch. And by the way... are we weirdos for wanting before and after pictures? HAHA! Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > I'll post an update once we have a eunuch. And by the way... are we > weirdos for wanting before and after pictures? HAHA! Not as long as you don't show them to Gabby and say "neener, neener"! ;> Hugs, CatNipped > Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think > that he could be aggressive with us? That's probably a certainty. In fact, I would bet on it. When you play with a kitten with your bare hands- especially roughly, you're teaching him human bodies are toys. Kittens,- in fact most cats of all ages are attracted to moving objects- its an integral part of their predatory stalk, pounce, and bite instinct. If the cat was taught human bodies are toys, moving hands and especially moving ankles- make irresistible targets. I mean, that would still make it > a behavioral issue but maybe one he could unlearn? Yes! Absolutely. First off- don't play with him with your bare hands. Use a wand and string toy he can chase and catch. A string tied to a stick is good enough. Just make sure the string is tied tightly to the stick and long enough so you can drag it around and dangle it over his head. If you have a lot of room, you might also want to get a "Kingfisher". Its a minature fishing pole & reel with a toy attached to the string that you can cast about 40' and back reel jerking and yanking the pole http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/catfisher-w-suggie.jpg Give him other toys to play with when you're not around- toys that he has to interact with- not static stuffed mice. A really great toy is a Peek-a Prize- http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Peek-a-prize-puzzle-box.jpg. Instead of putting toys inside, use treats so when he gets one out he can enjoy the reward of the hunt. This toy will keep occupied for hours! A Cat Charmer is another great toy. All it is is a small piece of cardboard attatched to a wire and mounted to the wall. The most important thing to remember is *never* *ever* play with him when he starts to play with you- walk away- even out of the room- and completely ignore him. Playtime should *always* be initiated by *you*, and not by him. Your entire famly must be consistent with this. I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits. Cats *can* be trained- there's no reason to even think about surrendering him- especially when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't mean to blame you. Its a very common mistake most first-timers make. All that's important now is to modify his behavior. I'll go into it a little more after he's neutered. Keep the faith, we'll get you through this. Phil >> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think >> that he could be aggressive with us? [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and > over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits. Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil - *all* the threads, not just this one? If so you'd have seen all the advice Lost was given. You just repeated it here, this is about the 5th or 6th times she's been given this particular bit of advice - along with about 10 or 15 other suggestions to help her change Gabby's behavior. Indeed, she has been doing exactly what you've described here for quite a few weeks now to no avail. Have you read where Gabby has taken *chunks* out of her children even including bites and scratches to the face (Lost posted a picture of her wounded child)? The last time Gabby attacked her daughter her husband had to practically strangle Gabby to make him let go. This behavior has gone quite a bit further than kitten playfulness. I value your advice, Phil, I've asked for it myself in the past, I even refer people to your web site as being the best, most comprehensive information to be found on cats and cat care. But please don't jump in here mid-stream and start calling people paranoid. Having no children of your own, you have no idea how serious possible *serious* harm to one's child can be to someone. Nobody is more of an ailurophile than I, but as much as I love my furry babies, my bare ones will always come first - that's called maternal instinct and when you try to deny it you are denying millennia of evolution that has hard-wired presevation of the species into our brains. Again, I have no argument with you or your advice, but please delve a bit more into the situation before posting accusations. Hugs, CatNipped > Cats *can* be trained- there's no reason to even think about surrendering > him- especially when you are largely responsible for his behavior- I don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Phil > >> Could it be then that our initial rough housing allowed him to think > >> that he could be aggressive with us? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > interact with- not static stuffed mice. A really great toy is a Peek-a > > Prize- http://maxshouse.com/Environmental_Enrichment/Peek-a-prize-puzzle-box.jpg. > > Instead of putting toys inside, use treats so when he gets one out he can > > enjoy the reward of the hunt. This toy will keep occupied for hours! A [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil - Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished. The kids also need to be taught how to act with the cat. Having no children of your > own, I have *4* kids-- and they all survived a few bites and scratches. >> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil - > > Yes, I have. The cat needs to be retrained- not relinquished. The kids > also > need to be taught how to act with the cat. Then how did you miss the many, many posts where we told "-Lost" to not play with Gabby with her hands, to ignore Gabby when he got rambunctious, to give Gabby "time outs" when he attacked, to use wands and other toys, to teach the children how to act around cats (in other words, the same things you're telling her here where she's acting like she's never heard this advice before and "oh Phil, you're so wise, that's exactly what I'll do - you saved Gabby's life!"(1) Um, let's see how many times *have* we told you these things "-Lost"? And yet she still "reported" "viscious" attacks when her kids were "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake today... please help..." post (the one where she posted pictures of her injured child and I said the injuries were minor, keep trying). What about the "Update: Gabby and whether or not we have killed him yet. Warning: LONG." where "-Lost" was saying they were thinking of bringing him to the pound to be euthanized since she wouldn't be able to stand it to do it herself at a vet? Exerpts from her posts about euthanizing: ================== "I have been in the room and watching during the attacks and have seen them from beginning to end (I actually mentioned this a few other times I posted). I can vouch that EVERYONE including my youngest daughter were not doing ANYTHING to the cat." "To be honest, it may be a cop out, but that is why I would take him to the pound. I could not bear to take him to a vet and sit there while it happened or to know it was happening while I waited or even as I left." "The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult to one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are no[w] at 8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no questions asked. " "Now, believe me, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from and I know your heart is in the right place, but this fanatical cat worship that prompts you or anyone else to be concerned about a problematic cat (he's not really that problematic in my opinion, it's just the violence, more on that in a minute) and not mention a SINGLE thing about my young children who live in fear of this little beasties' crazy hyper-rage spells does NOTHING in the way of making me remorseful to what MAY have to happen to Gabby one day." ================== It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training Gabby, said she could not find another home for Gabby, and was considering euthanizing him. *YES* I advised her to try to find a no-kill shelter or other home *after* trying even more behavior modification. Pardon me for taking "-Lost" at her word - it won't happen again.(1) (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've managed to be friendly to one another for years. But this will be the last post where I do! I respect you too much to get into a flame war over this. > Having no children of your >> own, > > I have *4* kids-- and they all survived a few bites and scratches. Sorry, I never heard you mention your kids before. But... "-Lost" wasn't reporting "a few bites and scratches", she said that Gabby was taking large "chunks" (her word) out of her children and that her husband had to *choke* Gabby to get him off of her daughter. *YES* I'd rather see Gabby re-homed than choked or euthanized if it happens again. Excerpts from her posts about the attacks: =============== " My beautiful, beautiful girls already have so many scars from this little bundle of sinewy terror." "Having trained my children to know how to react to some animals I saw the look in my oldest daughter's eyes when Gabby was dangling from her shoulder meat the other day -- "Do I put a finger in Gabby's eyes?", "Do I try and compress his windpipe?" HAHA! " "Believe me, I know! Gabby's last two attacks have been VERY serious. He gets himself worked into such a frenzy that he refuses to let go." "This last episode he actually shook his head back and forth on one of my daughter's shoulders ripping several tooth holes in her shirt and of course her skin." "He has attacked a total of 8 times now. The last were REALLY serious. He tore a PLUG out of one of my daughter's hands AND her wrist and that was compounded by the 20+ deep grooves cut into her arm as he jockeyed for a better position." =============== Anyway, if you want to continue advising "-Lost" while she sucks up to you like she was doing to me (yes, I saw exactly what she was doing, but ignored it while trying to indirectly help Gabby just in case it wasn't an elaborate troll), then have at it. Let me give you the program though... First she'll post, "oh my, I need help with such and such please someone help", then after you reply, "oh my, what good advice, you are so smart, you are so wise, I want to learn at the font of your wisdom", then another post, "since you are so wise about cats, what about this problem" - and on and on. Have fun! Hugs, CatNipped Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: >>> Have you been following Gabby's story, Phil - >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Gabby's life!"(1) Um, let's see how many times *have* we told you > these things "-Lost"? I knew something was up when you asked me what generalizations about cats I thought were not entirely accurate, but I had no clue you thought this ill of me. I thought I made it clear the only thing that I said "thanks for that" to was Phil saying that cats could be trained. ********** > I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and > over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT > suits. Cats *can* be trained- Thanks for that! I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to stimuli and debunked several myths already. And hope is better than despair that's for sure!" ********** Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that statement. However, because of how evident it was that Phil's expertise has helped everyone here time and time again you actually expected me to start arguing with someone who is apparently the group's savior for medical information? Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to do? Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard it time and time again while I sit here asking for more methods to teach Gabby right from wrong? And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The only things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who offers constructive criticism. The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that prompted a decision. > And yet she still "reported" "viscious" attacks when her kids were > "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > thinking of bringing him to the pound to be euthanized since she > wouldn't be able to stand it to do it herself at a vet? First of all, I said if he does this AS AN ADULT. And that our choice would have to be to let him go and ONLY if there is not an available home he would most definitely have to go the pound, where there policy is to euthanize. And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not even 2 year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her face. Excuse me! > Exerpts from her posts about euthanizing: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of making me remorseful to what MAY have to happen to Gabby one > day." ================== This is several posts taken out of context, but whatever... I don't get it. I am not allowed to say that if Gabby continues to be an aggressive cat on into his adulthood that he'll have to hit the road? And if that road happens to lead to the pound as opposed to a home or if the refuge has room, then that is where it leads him? And for the record at the pound at least he would have 5 days where someone might adopt him. The whole point was that I could not send Gabby to his death and just sit there like nothing was happening. > It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training > Gabby, said she could not find another home for Gabby, and was > considering euthanizing him. *YES* I advised her to try to find a > no-kill shelter or other home *after* trying even more behavior > modification. Pardon me for taking "-Lost" at her word - it won't > happen again.(1) No, I hadn't. And I don't believe I ever said that I was giving up. What the heck were the posts for asking for help!? That is why I post dramatic titles and wrap sensitive words in quotations like "choke." I did it every damn time I used the word because it wasn't an actual choke hold, but it was definitely a tight grip. How else do you remove a biting animal from something if it doesn't want to let go? > (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a > very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've > managed to be friendly to one another for years. But this will be > the last post where I do! I respect you too much to get into a > flame war over this. You are kidding right? YOU are the one who jumped Phil's shite, not I. I merely thanked him for reaffirming my suspicions that cat's could indeed be trained. I believe I even told you that, but you seem to think that was kissing your arse? Or was it because I thanked you kindly for EVERY last bit of help you gave me? I cannot believe for how intelligent of a person I thought you were that you are actually saying that I adopted a damned stray cat, vaccinated him, housed him, and took care of him for the past few months all in some elaborate plan to get you to argue with Phil. Wow. >> Having no children of your >>> own, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of her daughter. *YES* I'd rather see Gabby re-homed than choked > or euthanized if it happens again. You used asterisks which illustrate excitement or emphasis. I used quotations because it was "for lack of better word" and to illustrate how dramatic it was at the time. And I have PICTURES that show the damage he did to my 6 year old's hand, wrist, and forearm. I'll work on getting these posted today if possible and I'll update you or this thread one. > Excerpts from her posts about the attacks: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > arm as he jockeyed for a better position." > =============== I have taken pictures of everything he has ever done and recently began video taping him too (partly why I asked about your video methods in another of your posts). When I have them all up I'll make sure to show them to you. (Although I think I posted a few, I cannot remember for sure.) > Anyway, if you want to continue advising "-Lost" while she sucks > up to you like she was doing to me (yes, I saw exactly what she [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > post, "since you are so wise about cats, what about this problem" > - and on and on. Have fun! AGAIN, all I did was say "thanks for that." And it was in direct reply to cats having the ability to learn from training. And yes, he posted scientific EVIDENCE which is (almost) exactly what I asked for. So just like you I thanked him kindly and then offered another question for his perusal. Did I somehow ask for information in the wrong manner? You are saying that to ask a question, then be thankful for a response, then ask another question is a faux pas. Does that make any sense? In all seriousness CatNipped, how should I have been treating you for you to not think this about me? I tried to participate actively in this group, I sought help when I didn't know any other proven methods from experienced cat owners, I made my points VERY clear -- both that I would not tolerate the behavior as an adult cat AND that I was bending over backward to make Gabby a permanent member of the household, all the while thanking every single one of you profusely. And now I get called a troll for being thankful for continued constructive feedback? Don't forget I have others in this household who said maybe we should get rid of Gabby. It was from all these posts that I garnered more information and ideas and was able to put everyone's minds at ease -- proving that I was coming up with new things to try out was much better than saying screw it, I've no idea what to do about the kitty! I'll say this, call me what you will, but I simply do exactly what you or anyone else does -- and that is try to be polite as possible without offending anyone. So, if somehow I actually did something to deserve this bash, then I apologize to you and you alone. This not an attempt to "suck up." Mostly I just feel stupid for thinking you've been helping me since the "cry Uncle" video and I'm trying to be sincere regardless. Signature-Lost Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am kidding. No I am not. > Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > despair that's for sure!" > ********** No, you didn't make it very clear at all. The implication was that you were in despair over the myths given you previously by paranoid and over-protective mothers who think kids should be raised in HAZMAT suits. > Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about > paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that statement. > However, because of how evident it was that Phil's expertise has > helped everyone here time and time again you actually expected me to > start arguing with someone who is apparently the group's savior for > medical information? No, not at all, but telling him he has given you hope when all he is doing is repeating advice already given is a bit beyond simply not arguing.. > Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to do? > Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard it time > and time again while I sit here asking for more methods to teach > Gabby right from wrong? How about an honest, "yes, someone told me that and I've tried it and it didn't work."? > And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The only > things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who offers > constructive criticism. The "given me hope" comment. > The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of > everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that prompted a > decision. Here is where I think you're being disingenuous and possibly trolling. You've said you have many, many animals and are used to dealing with them and their medical problems. What was so amazing to you about the concept that neutering, thus reducing testosterone, would help stem aggressive behavior? Your questions have become more of a "gee whiz guys what's up with this" type of seemingly false naiveté that doesn't jibe with the other knowledge you claim to have. >> And yet she still "reported" "vicious" attacks when her kids were >> "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical mistake [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > available home he would most definitely have to go the pound, where > there policy is to euthanize. No, actually, that is not what you said, which is why I provided quotes. And whether or not they were presented "out of context", their content leaves no doubt about what you were discussing. And just how is it any better, anyway, to wait until he is an adult to take him to the pound to be euthanized? If you're going to do it, do it now while he's a kitten and still has some chance of being adopted - adult cats are lucky if they even wait the 5 days since nobody wants someone else's problem cat! Let me try to make this clear, I've told you that I am an ailurophile - you need to look that up in the dictionary if you have any doubts about what that means. Since my family are the only beings dearer to me than my cats (whom I think of as family), I would not consider euthanizing a cat for *any* reason. My children learned, from the time they were born, how to deal with cats, but they still had their share of bites and scratches - that was never a reason for me to even *think* about "getting rid of" a cat in *any* manner much less euthanasia. However, since you are *not* an ailurophile, I was "working with" someone for whom euthanasia was clearly not out of the question, so I geared my answers to deal with that. That probably came off to some here, like Phil, as 'selling out', but that was OK with me if I could get you to change Gabby's behavior and save his life OR find someone (besides the pound) who would take Gabby from you and save his life. > And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not even 2 > year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her face. Excuse > me! I'm not saying that, from what you reported, his attacks weren't vicious or unprovoked. I said the opposite, in fact. >> Excerpts from her posts about euthanizing: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > road? And if that road happens to lead to the pound as opposed to a > home or if the refuge has room, then that is where it leads him? That's exactly what we here were trying to prevent. And you know what else? That's exactly what trolls to this group like to come here and say so they can sit back and watch all the "crazy cat people" go nuts. See why this is looking like an elaborate troll to me (in fact when you first started posting there was at least on other regular here who surmised that you might be trolling)? > And for the record at the pound at least he would have 5 days where > someone might adopt him. The whole point was that I could not send > Gabby to his death and just sit there like nothing was happening. If you're going to send a cat to his death, then why not just face that fact instead of trying to fool yourself that he might be adopted (yeah, let's not sully our conscience with his death, let's pretend he was adopted by some nice people instead)? >> It had seemed to me that she had given up hope of ever training >> Gabby, said she could not find another home for Gabby, and was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I hadn't. And I don't believe I ever said that I was giving up. > What the heck were the posts for asking for help!? Again, could be trolling. It might not be and, if not, I apologize, but if it is let me congratulate you on an excellent job. > That is why I post dramatic titles and wrap sensitive words in > quotations like "choke." I did it every damn time I used the word > because it wasn't an actual choke hold, but it was definitely a tight > grip. How else do you remove a biting animal from something if it > doesn't want to let go? And, again, posting dramatic titles and using words like "choke" in a cats group is guaranteed to get a reaction. >> (1)At this point I'm beginning to think that "-Lost" may just be a >> very good troll - she *has* gotten us to exchange words when we've [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > could indeed be trained. I believe I even told you that, but you > seem to think that was kissing your arse? Phil is an excellent, unparalleled source of information on cats. Phil is not always diplomatic in his response to people he feels are not doing right by cats. He is also very, very busy with his rescue work and, along with his other, monitored, group he has other things to do than read every single post here. I took affront that he accused me, a long-time regular, of being paranoid when he obviously had not followed Gabby's story from the beginning. > Or was it because I thanked you kindly for EVERY last bit of help you > gave me? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > vaccinated him, housed him, and took care of him for the past few > months all in some elaborate plan to get you to argue with Phil. And there are actually people who use all of their free time making up scenarios in order to troll newsgroups - why not, it's fun! Wow. <snipped for time - I'm busy at work today and can't respond to it all> Again, if I'm wrong about you being a troll, I apologize. If you're not trolling the newsgroup then you need to be aware of the fact that certain words and statements can be *very* inflammatory. By all means don't let that fact deter you, but be aware that the reactions you get might not be what you wanted (unless you are a troll then they'll be exactly what you wanted). Hell, I apologize anyway in either case - my arthritis in my hands is killing me and I don't want to be pounding a keyboard arguing over this. Hugs, CatNipped Response to "CatNipped" <CatNipped@PossiblePlaces.com>: OK, I just want to defend a few points you made. <snip> >> ********** >>> I see you've been getting some poor advice by some paranoid and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > paranoid and over-protective mothers who think kids should be > raised in HAZMAT suits. I thought by saying "I've been taking note of how Gabby responds to stimuli..." would have made that clear. Unless by stimuli you thought I allowed Gabby to read Phil's statement about paranoid mothers? I'm not trying to be an arse, this is honestly how I see it. I may not have made it entirely clear -- but it sounded right as it spilled from my noggin. >> Notice how I specifically did not address anything he said about >> paranoia, because I felt as though I was included in that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is doing is repeating advice already given is a bit beyond simply > not arguing.. OK, I didn't say "[he] gave me hope." I said "hope is better than despair." Of course that is moot since I was not referring to anything but the training of a cat. My apologies if I muddled the point. >> Also, if everyone repeats the EXACT SAME INFORMATION what am I to >> do? Act like an arrogant arse and tell everyone that I've heard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How about an honest, "yes, someone told me that and I've tried it > and it didn't work."? OK, noted for the future. Although I think it stinks that everyone is quick to throw the troll card on someone simply because they did not think how the accuser supposedly would have. >> And how did I act like I've not heard this advice before? The >> only things I've said is "OK" and "thank you" to everyone who >> offers constructive criticism. > > The "given me hope" comment. Didn't say that exactly, but I see how it could have been misconstrued. My apologies. >> The only new thing is neutering and that was a combination of >> everyone's opinions on it and Phil's MEDICAL EVIDENCE that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > seemingly false naiveté that doesn't jibe with the other knowledge > you claim to have. Sweetheart, I know about draining infections, giving out vaccinations, and general care for domestic and farm animals. I don't believe I ever said I was an expert at chopping bits off. I also didn't feel that I came on here in a little girl scout uniform with my finger in my mouth asking if someone "would pwetty, pwetty pwease hewp me." As I typed that I had a smile on my face. Not to be snarky or anything, I just found it amusing. >>> And yet she still "reported" "vicious" attacks when her kids >>> were "just walking past" as in the "Gabby made a critical [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > adopted - adult cats are lucky if they even wait the 5 days since > nobody wants someone else's problem cat! ********** The only thing I know for certain is that if he does this as an adult to one of my children again (the total number of SERIOUS attacks are not at 8) he is going to the pound where he will be euthanized -- no questions asked. But enough of that negative thinking -- my boy has been behaving GREAT for almost a week! ********** I cannot find the other post but I did mention in another related post that I had previously searched for homes, talked with the refuge, contacted my vet, and had recently gotten a few numbers for some cat places from PetSmart. So I again, I may have muddled the point. It was my intention to illustrate that if it happened again he would be leaving this home. And YES, I would try to find him a decent home first, I'm sure of that. Regardless of what I might say. And you are totally right about the kitten versus adult topic. However, I'd like to never bring it up again (although it may happen) because I will not willingly take his life. That really is not what I'm trying to focus on. I think I just have the habit of saying what the hell ever comes to mind and made me sound like an arse. I want Gabby to grow old on my lap and I want everyone in this household to smile when they see him enter the room. Period. > Let me try to make this clear, I've told you that I am an > ailurophile - you need to look that up in the dictionary if you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was never a reason for me to even *think* about "getting rid of" a > cat in *any* manner much less euthanasia. > However, since you are *not* an ailurophile, I was "working with" > someone for whom euthanasia was clearly not out of the question, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > find someone (besides the pound) who would take Gabby from you and > save his life. If you absolutely think it's an idiotic idea just tell me. I've been disabled for a LONG time so one more person saying my thinking is screwed or that I'm an idiot won't bother me, I promise. And again, for the record, it is out of the question. If it happens as a result of me not being able to find him a home, I don't consider that as me purposely putting him on the chopping block. That may sound horrible too, I don't know. >> And yeah, I called it a critical mistake because it was my not >> even 2 year old daughter walking past him and he leaped on her >> face. Excuse me! > > I'm not saying that, from what you reported, his attacks weren't > |
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