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Amber - 03 Jul 2003 18:10 GMT

Hi Ya'll,

Not an emergency --

We just found out that one of our cats is diabetic. He was pretty
sick and I took him to the Vet I use to work for, so we have good
medical support. Dr. Whitworth has told me W/D Science diet and
Science Diet canned kitten growth formulae are good enough for us to
try to control Nercamel's diabetes.

What I need to know is are there other foods that are good for
controling cat diabetes as well? This is a 12 year old, castrated
male who is a rather strange eater. He does not especially like the
prescription foods, wants adult sci diet dry or canned tuna and tends
to eat until he throws up.

I am also wondering if there are herbals that might help, but with
those I will need some good references. I use herbals myself but also
know how dangerous it can be not to check out the science first when
using herbals with chronic conditions.

Thanks in advance,

AmberBarbara

Down here in Austin TX

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PawsForThought - 03 Jul 2003 21:26 GMT

>From: ambercatlover@yahoo.com (Amber)

>I am also wondering if there are herbals that might help, but with
>those I will need some good references. I use herbals myself but also
>know how dangerous it can be not to check out the science first when
>using herbals with chronic conditions.

If you live in the U.S., you can find a state by state listing for holistic
vets at www.altvetmed.com

A wonderful book on herbs is "Herbs for Pets" by Mary Wulf-Tilford. The book
is not only beautiful but extremely well researched:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1889540463/qid=1057263866/sr
=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7620549-9469467?v=glance&s=books

Lauren
________
See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

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Steve Crane - 05 Jul 2003 15:02 GMT

> Hi Ya'll,
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Down here in Austin TX

Amber,
The vast majority of work done in regards to nutrition and diabetes
is in the area of high fiber, low calorie. There are dozens of peer
reviewed studies out there on this process. The objective is to use
the fiber to slow the uptake of the nutrients. Generally most diabetic
cats are overweight. The use of soluble and insoluble fibers in the
right proportion has been shown to reduce insulin dependance.
According to the work Colorado State did it requires a minimum of 10%
fiber to be effective.
An alternative hypothesis is the use of low carbohydrate diets, low
fiber, high protein and high fat, similar to the human Atkins diet.
Purina DM, Prescription Diet */d are examples of that type of diet.
There have only been two studies of this hypothesis, one was badly
flawed the other looks pretty good. There may be a risk with these
diets in cats with undetected renal failure.
You cannot mix these two philosophies. Feeding w/d in the morning
and Growth in the evening isn't going to work. In order for the the
Atkins type diet to work it must move the cat into a ketotic state.
That won't happen if the diet is altered back and forth between two
different methods.
As for herbals - caveat emptor - buyer beware! I've seen a ton of
hype and absoutely no hard data to support the use of any of these.

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wombn - 05 Jul 2003 23:16 GMT

>Amber,
> The vast majority of work done in regards to nutrition and diabetes
>is in the area of high fiber, low calorie. There are dozens of peer
>reviewed studies out there on this process. The objective is to use
>the fiber to slow the uptake of the nutrients. Generally most diabetic

Are you talking about glycemic index?

http://www.mendosa.com/gidigest.htm

This can be a very confusing concept, especially when you realize that
table sugar is digested *slower* than baked potato......

Info like that can make your head spin.

http://diabetes.about.com/library/mendosagi/ngilists.htm

Since fiber is not broken down into glucose, you don't count the fiber
when calculating carbs.

And fat content can slow down the digestion more than fiber content.

A chocolate bar (not for cats, of course) digests slower than a potato
(of the same effective carbs as the candy) does. It's the fat in the
candy that slows it down.

the only real way to be sure is to test the blood sugar right bewfore
eating and then again approx 2 hours after the meal. and possibly a
3rd time 4 hrs after the meal.

>cats are overweight. The use of soluble and insoluble fibers in the
>right proportion has been shown to reduce insulin dependance.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>diets in cats with undetected renal failure.
> You cannot mix these two philosophies. Feeding w/d in the morning

yes you can. But you do have to calculate it differently.

>and Growth in the evening isn't going to work. In order for the the
>Atkins type diet to work it must move the cat into a ketotic state.
>That won't happen if the diet is altered back and forth between two
>different methods.

no that's not true. You don't have to be ketotic to reduce the amount
of insulin you need.

Let's say I have a *big* bowl of ice cream for breakfast (naughty
girl!)... I'd have to give myself about 7.0 units of insulin. 4
hours later, assuming I calculated the *effective carbs* (carbs minus
fiber) correctly, I should be back in target range. Then I can have a
low carb lunch, such as 5 gm effective carbs, and only give myself 0.3
units of insulin. 4 hours later, my blood sugar should once again be
in target range.

Target range is the bottom line here.

Now, if I want to prevent myself from gaining weight (in other words,
turning all the effective carbs from the ice cream into stored fat),
then keeping my carbs lower will help.

If I want to *lose* weight using low carb, THEN I need to be ketotic.
Which is NOT the same thing as ketoacidosis.

For maintaining your weight, you don't have to be ketotic.

> As for herbals - caveat emptor - buyer beware! I've seen a ton of
>hype and absoutely no hard data to support the use of any of these.

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