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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2007Cat Pregnancy Questions?
Hi, I'm hoping someone can answer these questions! These are two different cats: 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/ 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting the vet? I'd so appreciate some answers! Skye > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/ Yes. It's called a "spay." > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting > the > vet? You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you allowing your cats to breed? Best regards, ---Cindy S. > I'd so appreciate some answers! > > Skye > > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into > > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there > > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/ > > Yes. It's called a "spay." I'm glad your life is so well-ordered and nothing ever gets out of your control once in a while. However, please realize that's not the case with everyone in the world, mkay? The older cat is a feral cat who I've been feeding for the last two years, but has hung around this neighborhood for at least 10. I've somehow grown attached, even though she is wild. She will not come to me nor allow me to so much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S., ok? Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did manage to catch her kittens and most of them were put to sleep. This summer, we've managed to get the kittens before they were found, but we had to pull off commando-type raids under cat-hating neighbors porches to do it. She seems to be safe and stays under the radar all the rest of the year. I simply wondered how many more summers I could look forward to worrying about this. Or do you just think I should stop feeding her? I mean, what gives with your attitude??? > > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the > > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You should be contacting the vet about having her spayed. Why are you > allowing your cats to breed? This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I wanted her to have kittens. OMG! I'm guilty! Shoot me, but not the cat! Seriously, I'm not sure since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you want your cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. Unless there's some law I'm not aware of (under Homeland Security, maybe?). I don't even think you have to ask permission from, well, ANYBODY. Lol. Well, thank you for your, um, help and info, Cindy S. I can assure you, the world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight. Skye >> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into >> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > Skye You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat. Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any more kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever the food is best) and become domesticated....... Contact your local cat coalition or the vet to find out about this....... > You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat. > Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Contact your local cat coalition or the vet to find out about this....... Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter, release) programs or offer low-cost spays. Many will also loan you a humane trap. Unfortunately, by asking these questions you have stumbled onto one of the hot topics on this forum. Almost all of us regulars here _strongly_ believe in spaying and neutering, both for the prevention of unwanted/unneeded litters but also for the overall health and well being of the animal. Spaying will prevent certain types of cancers and eliminate many unwanted behaviors (coming into heat, caterwauling, spraying). With the millions of animals that are euthanized each year, it's hard *not* to be an advocate of spaying. > Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to > see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter, > release) programs or offer low-cost spays. Many will also loan you a > humane trap. Our animal shelter does not offer a TNR program or any low cost spays. They might offer a trap, though. > Unfortunately, by asking these questions you have stumbled onto one of > the hot topics on this forum. Almost all of us regulars here [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > spraying). With the millions of animals that are euthanized each year, > it's hard *not* to be an advocate of spaying. I asked my questions with the only objective of getting information. With no disrespect intended, I for some reason just don't care about posters' opinions, approval, or disapproval. They don't know me or my situations. I *tried* to care about an hour ago, but I just can't. I mean, no offense, but you all are faceless, anonymous Usenet users - I don't understand how to care about that. And I can't believe anyone cares that much about what I do. They have to jump on and lecture every time someone posts anything with the words "pregnant" and "cat" in it, so that it makes THEM feel like they have some purpose in life. It's ridiculous. I do care that some of the posters took the time and trouble to respond with some constructive information. THOSE are the ones I hear. Skye >> Since she is a feral, you could also call your local animal shelter to >> see if they will offer assistance. Some have TNR (trap, neuter, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Skye With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them. Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion, you are risking getting bad advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first place? > With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in > common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them. Apparently, that's not entirely true. There are evidently some in here who think it's best to just let stray cats and dogs starve. THAT can't be good. > Anytime you ask strangers for an opinion, which I *didn't* > you are risking getting bad > advice.....the question I have is: Why did you post here in the first place? For information: 1. To find out if there is an age at which a female cat might stop breeding naturally. 2. To find out if my pregnant cat was medically in danger. To my knowledge, only 1 person attempted to specifically answered both questions. The rest is just rabid, nutty farting in the wind to me - with the exception of your advice of trapping the older cat. When I was having trouble with my car, I posted my problem to some car newsgroups asking for information. I received 12 responses packed full of info so that I was able to get my car fixed quickly. There were no opinions - no one accused me of letting my car get in disrepair or putting pollution into the air by driving a car, no judgmental attitudes at all. I simply received information that I needed. However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and I've forgotten how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know they're anonymous. All you can do is killfile some, ignore others, and pick the most constructive ones out of the mess. Skye > However, to be honest, I haven't posted on Usenet for a long time and > I've forgotten > how vicious and pompously superior people can act here when they know > they're anonymous. ----- With all due respect, you could easily be describing your own behavior on this newsgroup. Best regards, ---Cindy S. : : On Aug 14, 7:57 pm, "William Graham" <w...@comcast.net> : : wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] : : : : which I *didn't* Actually you did, by posting here. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's been posted, but the simple act of posting a message on a newsgroup implies that you want replies. These replies will invariably be people's opinions. Whether or not they are facts is a different matter entirely. Ivor >> With the exception of a few trolls, everyone here has one thing in >> common....We all love cats and hate to see anything bad happen to them. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Skye Well, you have to understand that not all of us cat lovers agree on everything.....Exactly what is the best way to help cats is a matter of opinion, and there are things that some of us would do that others wouldn't do.....I happen (for example) to believe it is better to let a cat go, and give it a chance to fend for itself, than it is to put it to sleep.....But we have had some rousing wars and disagreements on this point. I picked up my favorite cat from a Burger King parking lot, where someone who couldn't keep him any longer just dropped him off.....When he tried to beg some hamburger from me, he got his little fanny thrown in my car, and brought home permanently. Not all cats are so lucky, so I can understand why others disagree with me..... > I *tried* to care about an hour ago, but I just can't. I mean, no > offense, but > you all are faceless, anonymous Usenet users As are you. >- I don't understand how > to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > like they > have some purpose in life. It's ridiculous. Is that so? Well, looks like you have us all figured out. Do you have a purpose in life other than breeding cats and posting questions to strangers on Usenet? Best regards, ---Cindy S. > I do care that some of the posters took the time and trouble to > respond with > some constructive information. THOSE are the ones I hear. > > Skye > You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to eat. > Then you can bring her to the vet where they will tranquilizer her and spay > her. Then you can bring her back and let her go, and she won't have any more > kittens....Also, she is likely to stick around your place (or wherever the > food is best) and become domesticated....... I've thought about doing that, but I'd be afraid she'd never show at my door again. In fact, I'm not even sure it would work - she's been incredibly canny (or incredibly lucky) when it comes to the animal control cages around the neighborhood at various times. It's certainly something to think about though - thanks! Actually, if I do anything, it'll be that, if I can find a sympathetic vet. Skye >> You can set humane traps that will trap the feral cat when she comes to >> eat. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Skye I have had this problem in the past, and what I did was trap the cat, and then call a friend of mine to pick it up (in the trap) and bring it to the vet. Then, I picked it up at the vet the next day, and brought it home and let it go.....The cat didn't connect me with its experience.....Probably thought of me as the one who rescued it from that terrible place. (The vet:^) > This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I > wanted her to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > want your > cat to breed, you are allowed to do so. -------- Yes, you're allowed. And please sleep well tonight with the knowledge that thousands of cats are being euthanized in shelters every year for lack of homes and every one of your kittens that you place in a home represents a shelter cat who will not have a home and will be euthanized. But please don't let that minor inconvenience stand in the way of your fulfilling your selfish desire to let your cat breed. And rest assured, that you will find very little support for your position on the rec.pets.cats.health+behavior newsgroup. But you are correct that in America, the "me, me, me" approach to life is alive and well. Selfishness and self-centeredness are certainly not against the law. Best regards, ---Cindy S. >Unless there's some law I'm > not aware [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Skye >> This cat is my indoor, well-cared-for, beautiful, loved cat. Yes, I >> wanted her to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Skye Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just put a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all, literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night...... snip > Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just > put a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all, > literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst > and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do > about it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night...... -------- No one can fix the world, but we can do our best to not make things worse. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > Errrrrr......I don't want to start a flame war here, but you might just put > a teensy weensy bit of the blame on God, don't you think? - After all, > literally millions of cute furry little animals die of starvation, thirst > and the cold every year, and there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about > it........I often wonder how well He sleeps at night...... Sometimes I feel the same way, these are bad endings for innocent creatures, but here's a thought, William . . . Would you *really* want to be vying for elbow room with dogs, bears, rabbits, etc, etc.? Sharing diseases? Can you imagine the humongous abuse rate, the hunting and killing for sport? I think nature knows what it's doing. We may not like some aspects of it (for example, I don't especially care about the fact that everything dies at all, including us), but it IS beautiful in it's own way. And as far as God is concerned, She set all this in motion and probably sleeps just fine. :-) Skye >> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into >> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > much as touch her. You tell me how to get her to the vet, Cindy S., > ok? You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be quite easy to trap her. Check with the rescue groups for recommendations for low-cost spay neuter locations where they will do feral cats. Make an appointment. The day of or the night before the appointment, put some good smelly wet food in the back of the trap and set it shortly before the time that the cat usually shows up to eat. Then wait in an out of sight but not out of hearing place for the unique sound of a trap tripping. Cover trap with a large towel and take the cat in the trap to the vet for her spay. If it's the night before, place a large plastic bag on the floor of a garage or similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight. > Last summer, some of the neighbors tried to get rid of her. They did > manage to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > gives with your > attitude??? If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing kittens when there are already too many kittens to ever possibly home. You basically are facilitating the birth of kittens so that they or others like them will have to be put to death. I know people mean well when they start feeding strays but the truth is that it's better not to and just let nature take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and spay/neuter the cat. >> > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the >> > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > you, the > world is a much safer and better place. You can sleep well tonight. > Skye People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. Our volunteer told them that we weren't asking them to take the cat and house it but to put it out of it's misery. The shelter person again said they didn't have room. When it became obvious that they were miscommunicating the shelter person clarified that they didn't have any room in their FREEZER where they keep the euthanized animals until they can be cremated. She said that they couldn't fit a hampster in the freezer if they had to. THAT'S how many unwanted animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little short with someone who is exacerbating the problem. W > If you aren't willing to get her spayed, Which I never said I wasn't willing, but ya'll assumed... > you are doing more harm than good > by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and > spay/neuter the cat. Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to quit when it becomes inconvenient for me. THAT's one of MY pet peeves - people who do that or take on pets just to dump them when they get tired of them or they don't like them. And I know it happens a lot. So forget it - not even up for discussion. But thanks for reminding me there's people like you who do that and/or advocate it. It's sick. :-/ Or that I should have ignored her 2 years ago when she was stumbling around broken, starving, and skeletal. I DID try for about 8 years, but come on now. Every animal lover has their limit, and actually, I don't regret starting it one bit. Truth is, this is the first cat I've ever "had" that I couldn't win over, and I'm not comfortable with that fact. I didn't know at the beginning she wouldn't warm up to me, now did I? But just because she's like that, doesn't mean I'm gonna discard her like a soiled tissue now. For anyone else who's reading this: don't take on a dog, cat, rabbit, gerbil, ferret, etc., unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you're willing to stand by and take care of it for the rest of it's life. If you don't think you're up to it or mature enough or are too fickle in your relationships, simply DON'T DO IT to begin with. End of story. And that goes for feeding strays too. Even if there's a risk you might not be able to spay it or make a true "pet" out of it. Once you start, it's yours. Jeesh. > THAT'S why people tend to get a little > short with someone who is exacerbating the problem. Oh, go pick on someone who deserves it. Surely, you can find someone out of all the pet-dumpers, animal abusers, people who REGULARLY don't get their pets spayed or neutered, people who don't CARE about euthanized animals, etc., etc. Hey, I'll even join you for that. Skye > Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to > quit when it becomes inconvenient for me. That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a Malthusian problem. Charlie >> Oh for God's sakes, I would NEVER start feeding a cat or dog just to >> quit when it becomes inconvenient for me. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Charlie Absolutely nothing at all. I think this would be the ideal answer actually. The best person to trap her, would be Skye, or someone that would be willing to assist her to trap her initially. All she needs is a bit of support, to believe in herself. I know how daunted I felt @ the prospect of trying to catch Lucy (fur!!). I had no confidence in myself & worride silly that if If didn't get it right, that she would never trust me again, or even return. However, with a bit of support & self belief, I had the confidence to try it out. Mind you, I did worry that If I failed I wouldn't ever get the chance to even try again, & my immediate worry was that her wounds were festering, & I knew that if I didn't manage to trap her, that it might have been the end of her. I think the main thing, is that Skye receives the support she needs, & to be encouraged to seek help with trapping this elder queen. IMHO, it is vital that she seeks & finds that support, & It might also help if she had some outside help with this one too. I don't know what options are available to her, but I am certain there must be some kind of support? Once she finds this support, they might even be willing to help her to physically help her trap her? I also agree that if Skye feels that she simply can't be associated with the cat's trauma & be affecting their bond, then it would be best for her to ask for another person to trap her As long as Skye is willing to spay for the spay fee, I am certain that any human society, RSPCA assistance, would be happy to help out where they could?( Or, I would like to think so, anyway?!!) It can't possibly cost that much, as long as it is planned carefully? >That's commendable, but what is wrong with the idea of trapping this >animal and getting her spayed? What if she comes around with a litter of >kittens? Will you feed them all? Eventually you might be faced with a >Malthusian problem. Charlie, I had to search for what the meaning of this word meant (Malthusian) . Now that I understand, I agree with you. There is no favour to be gained in feeding an animal, unless you are prepared to follow the project all the way through. As long as she spays her, then this is a success story. However, if she doesn't, then it will generate a whole new set of problems, for several people having to pick up the pieces (i.e: having to euthanize the kittens, unless they can all be homed), which is rather unlikely & @ the expense of shelter cats I guess), &, if the mother doesn't trust humans. With no trust from the mother, it is unlikely that the kitties would ever be socialised, & you end up with another litter of kittens, as well as the mother who all need attending to, one way or another.... This is a difficult one, but my advice is the same as yours, on balance. I hope that you try to do this Skye? I felt the same way that you do now, but I managed it, so I have every faith that you can too. Good Luck, Sheelagh >"o"<  SignatureSheelagh >"o"< > >> > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into > >> > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > You buy or borrow (rescue groups and shelters sometimes lend traps - ask > them) a humane trap. If you've been feeding this cat anyway it should be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > similar place. Put a thick layer of newspaper on the plastic bag and then > set the trap on them. The cat will be fine in a covered trap overnight. Yes, I found that heating the food up attracted them straight to to the bowl because their sense of smell is so superior to our own. I couldn't find any society that was willing to lend me a trap, but I did find a private american citizen on a USAF base that was willing to lend me one. I was no expert on trapping cats, believe me- In fact, I had never tried trapping a cat before, but with advice from Phil, I managed to catch Lucy(fur!!) first time, so please @ least have the confidence to try it out? The vet was good enough to come out to us, & treated her immediate needs, & we took her in the following day to have her spayed. Lucy(fur!) was the only one that was so shy that we simply couldn't catch her though. The rest, we were able to entice with food alone. > If you aren't willing to get her spayed, you are doing more harm than good > by feeding her. You are keeping her healthy enough to continue reproducing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > take it's course unless you're willing to commit to doing it right and > spay/neuter the cat. I wonder if you have a society in the USA that will pay towards the cost of spaying a cat? In the UK we have a society called the Cat Protection League, & their main objective, is to spay, neuter & advise on how to catch cats that need fixing. They also rescue cats too, but are totally reliant on volunteers who are willing to help for nothing. If you do, these might be the best people to contact? Over here, they are willing to pay half the cost towards spay or neuter fee's, which is very helpful if you face the charge personally for a cat that you don't own & intend to release.I was wondering if you have any similar programs in the USA that you can go to if you need help like this? > People tend to get a little bent out of shape with people who are willfully > adding to the cat over-population problem. I volunteer for a cat rescue [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > animals there are out there. And THAT'S why people tend to get a little > short with someone who is exacerbating the problem. OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our community bowl, but having heard this story, I now understand why. Our community bowl has two objectives. The first was to stop them starving, & the second was to see that they were fixed. I end up paying around $30 for a male, & $40 for a female. It's not a huge amount of money to find, & well worth the hassle of catching them. It is also worth having a word with your regular vet, to see if they are willing to do cheaper rates if you take more than say, one a month to them too. I knew that things were bad in the USA regarding feral & unwanted cats, but I had no idea exactly how bad. I hope that story serves as a reminder to others as to why it is so important to get them spayed & neutered. I have to say that I am very shocked to hear your story. That is absolutely horrific!! I can only assume that we lead very sheltered lives in the UK, or the problem is not yet quite at crisis point. Thank you for sharing this story with us. Sheelagh >"o"< ( Nice to see you too;o) > OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I > used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Sheelagh >"o"< > ( Nice to see you too;o) It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us. We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though - or at least one can hope. I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the surviving two. W >> OMG Wendy, I have never heard such a sad story in my entitre life. I >> used to wonder why people got so out of shape when they heard of our [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >W It's the God's honest truth. I was shocked when the volunteer came back and told us of the problem she had getting the poor thing put out of it's misery. It was bent over backwards seizing and covered it what looked like maggots and the SPCA couldn't help us. The volunteer finally took it to a private vet who was still open and they euthanized the kitten for us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, I believe every word you said Wendy. I just found it morbidly & disgustingly unfair, dreadful & sickening really. Each time that I hear a story like this, it makes me feel so angry with humans, because ultimately, it is our job to make sure that this doesn't happen. so, to hear that the volunteer actually understood what you were saying, but still had no room for the poor little thing, disgusts me! How terribly sad, wasn't it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------- We're smack dab in the middle of kitten season here and I guess everyone is filled up with cats. There is a shelter in Philadelphia that has been giving them away for a dollar just so they don't have to euthanize. The sad thing is that many of these $1 cats will be returned or dumped back on the street and have to be dealt with later. Maybe there will be more room then though - or at least one can hope. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- This news is also terrible too. To have to be forced into selling a kitten for a $1 (which = 50pence here- nothing. A bar of chocolate costs the same price!!!), speaks volumes in how desperate they all are...And, as you rightly point out, most of them will either throw them out on the street because they all to ashamed or embarrassed to take them back to the shelter & admit that things haven't worked out they way they planned it, or simply can't be bothered with the problem.. And so the cycles starts over once more :o( I hope you are right about there being more hope. I feel so ashamed with humans sometimes!?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm back up to 17 fosters myself. Two of them are bottle feeders that were found outside with no mom. There were four kittens to start with but the one was dead when it arrived at the vets office and they euthanized the other because it was so sick. I was at the vet's picking up one of my fosters (the mother of 6 kittens born on Father's Day) and they asked if I could take the surviving two. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- I can only say that I commend you Wendy. In the last 3 months, I have only had 9 cats & kittens & that was hard work, so I realise how much you must have put in to this project. Well done! If only there were other Foster mothers like you out there. I do one day @ my local shelter a wee, anything that the CPL bring to me, & also a bit of work for Ragdoll Rescue UK too. In fact I think it was you that advised me that If I really missed the kitten bit of breeding, then I should try doing rescue instead. It was one of the best pieces of advice I ever took on board & followed up. It brings me great satisfaction & I enjoy it n end on the whole. Of course it has it's bad moments, but what doesn't these days?. Just out of interest, how long to the shop keep their cats before calling you to say that they need for you to take them away ? Also, how did you get on with the 2 kittens that you asked for @ the shop as well, if you don't mind? Thanks, & good for you too, Sheelagh >"o"< SignatureSheelagh >"o"< "Wendy" <wendypart@nospam.com> wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49- > group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend we > had a man bring us a kitten who was obviously on death's door. It appeared > to have injested some type of poison and was having convultions. It was > beyond helping so one of our volunteers took the kitten to the local SPCA to > get it euthanized. When she arrived there the person at the shelter told her > they couldn't help us because they didn't have room. I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great distress, you knew it had to be put down and you couldn't immediately find a vet to do it. All the time and effort you spent trying to do the right thing and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. That takes real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care for. I had to do that once to a dog I owned after she got run over by a car. The way her guts were splayed out on the road and she was still alive yelping in agony, all I could do was run to get a tire iron and crush her skull. Then I buried her in my backyard garden. I cried for over a week and it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, but I knew it was the right thing to do. I still cry sometimes when I think of what I had to do, but I know that under the same circumstances, I'd do it again. Putting aside society's laws for a moment, if the situation was reversed, I'd want someone to do the same thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing what I knew I had to do. > I have to ask. When confronted with this problem, why did *you* not force > yourself to take action? You had a kitten that was obviously in great [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care > for. It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a suffering animal. It *is* however allowed to *cause* suffering of certain species during hunting season, provided you have a license (you don't have to be competent to kill quickly so long as you have the license). SignatureT.E.D. (tdavis@umr.edu) "Ted Davis" <tdavis@umr.edu> wrote in message > It's also illegal in many areas: it's considered animal cruelty for an > unapproved person to use an unapproved method to end the distress of a > suffering animal. Of course it's illegal, probably always will be in North America, but that's not the point as far as I'm concerned. When I put my dog down, it wouldn't have mattered if there were 20 people there threatening to have me charged, it was a matter of my own peace of mind. And if I'd had to pay some fine or serve some type of incarceration, that wouldn't have mattered much either. It was just a matter of my doing what I felt was needed to be done right away. > "Wendy" <wendypart@nospam.com> wrote in message news:S9idnSXf49- >> group. We do adoptions from a Pet Smart store on Saturdays. Last weekend [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and the kitten was suffering. A few seconds of submerging it in a sink and > it's agony would have been over. Relatively quick and painless. --------- I don't necessarily dispute your premise of putting an animal out of its misery yourself. My husband once had no choice but to do this for a baby bird with a broken neck who had fallen out of its nest. He chopped off its head with a hoe. Death was instant. But drowning the kitten would not be the least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up with water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way for the kitten to die. Best regards, ---Cindy S. >That takes > real guts and real love of animals, putting an animal down that you care [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > thing for me. That was the only way I could rationalize myself into doing > what I knew I had to do. "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message > least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up with > water would IMO be the worst death imaginable. It would be a horrible way > for the kitten to die. Possibly. But, balance the few seconds it would take to become unconscious against the hours the kitten was in agony while someone was looking for a vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd prefer to die. > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > looking for a vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know > which method I'd prefer to die. Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying. Charlie >> "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >>> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it > work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying. Can't see how water boarding could that be painful. Prisoner holds his breath, if he inhales, they have a problem. I don't believe they want that. It's scary thats for sure and I'm not a torture advocate. I like to swim as far as I can under water, as you run out of air, panic sets in. In the cat's case, sure the cat is scared. It's going to inhale sooner or later but I don't believe the water in the lungs is all that painful. Yes, I've breathed in water, it hurts but it's not the worst pain I've ever had. It's just water. By the time it inhales it's going to be light headed anyway. Death follows soon after. No I don't want to try it. When you have a cat with it's guts hanging out, what's more painful, the trip to the vet or 5 minutes under water? I thought it was common practice to put down dogs thru suffocation? Nasty subject anyway... > When you have a cat with it's guts hanging out, what's more painful, the > trip to the vet or 5 minutes under water? I don't know. If I had to euthenize a cat without drugs, my first choice would be to shoot it in the back of the head, using a rifle or handgun, and my second choice would be to strangle it with a cord. Charlie > Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract > information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it > work? Answer -- because it's painful and terrifying. > > Charlie The government currently uses tactics which violate the Geneva convention because we have a despicable worm as President who has brought shame on the office and on the nation as a whole. If anyone should be tortured it is Bush, but lets not stray off the subject of cats. >> Why do you think the U.S. gov't uses simulated drowning to extract >> information from prisoners? Answer -- because it works. And why does it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the office and on the nation as a whole. If anyone should be tortured it > is Bush, but lets not stray off the subject of cats. Errr.....The government was doing things like that long before Bush, but if you must Bush-bash, then be my guest. (It's not like you're alone....:^) > "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > vet to euthanize the kitten. Reverse the roles and I know which method I'd > prefer to die. It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize. W > > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message > >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill up [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > W > It wasn't hours. The SPCA was close by as was the vet who did euthanize. I "know" that you did the right thing by that kitten Wendy, & so does every other person who knows you on here. I find it very tacky that others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best @ that time for the kitten concerned. You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold amount of cats, pregnant Queens & their litters, because of others thoughtless attitudes towards spaying & neutering their own cats. It's sad that someone feels that they have the right to come along & nit pick about what you did for that one kitten, without recognising the years that you have spent devoting your life towards saving cats & homing the most needy ( & yes, that includes me whilst I continued to breed cats too!!) If I can see this, then so can they too- I feel/ think this is selective & downright inventive. No hours, were mentioned @ all in your passage! Some are selectively choosing to see what they want to, rather than the facts in front of them. I say well done to you for doing what you could @ the time. It was no easy task & I'm certain that you found no happiness in what you had to do to put the poor mite out of it's misery. You should be thanked for what you had to do, not criticised. All I can see here is speculation, about what they "might/ or should" have done. I only agree with one of them, & only then if I had no other choice. Lets thank the powers that be that they were not faced with your agonising choices, & the poor mite wasn't in their care @ the time. You did what you had to in as short as time as was reasonably possible. You have my utter respect, it was no easy thing to have to handle, & I am so sorry that you were faced with that situation. It was a terrible position to find yourself in. Best Wishes, Sheelagh>"o"< >> > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Best Wishes, > Sheelagh>"o"< This is always the hardest decision for someone to make....Our desire to wait and see if the cat recovers is so great, that it is very hard to, "give it up" and decide to put it down.....At such times, it is usually best to go with the veterinarians decision, because they don't have the emotional involvement that you are burdened with...... >> > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > others feel the need to pick over the fact that you did what was best > @ that time for the kitten concerned. ---------- For the record, I hope my remarks were not taken to be a criticism of Wendy. They were not intended to be, and I would have done the same thing as she did in her shoes. When my husband put the baby bird out of its misery, it was only because the vet's office was already closed, and we didn't want the bird to suffer late into the night only to have to die on its own. Even though death (using the hoe) was nearly instantaneous, my husband said it was a horrible experience, and he would never want to repeat it. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > You have spent a long time helping kittens, cats & all manner of > rescues for several years, & during that time, you have saved untold [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Best Wishes, > Sheelagh>"o"< > For the record, I hope my remarks were not taken to be a criticism of > Wendy. They were not intended to be, and I would have done the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would never want to repeat it. Best regards, > ---Cindy S. I live on an island where the vet is either a boat ride or a plane ride away, and there have been a couple of times when I have had to put animals down. Strangulation (for birds) or a bullet (for larger animals) are quick and painless for the animal. What your husband did with the hoe was also a humane technique. Drowning is a chickenshit way to get rid of cats. People do it out here. One time I was at a marina, and I saw a couple of guys walking down the dock with a cat in a carrier. It was a nice looking cat. I figured it was their pet and they were getting aboard a boat. I went into town and did my errands, and when I got back, I tossed something in the dumpster and there was the soaked body of this poor animal. If I'd known what those a.sholes were up to, I'd have offered to take the cat. Charlie "Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in message > Drowning is a chickenshit way to get rid of cats. People do it out > here. Really? As compared to what, something like bashing an animals head in with a shovel? You risk missing the mark or not hitting it properly in one blow causing even more pain. While a gun is the quickest way, your living on an island makes using a gun a lot easier to use than discharging one in a populated area where the noise can cause repercussions from neighbours and ultimately the police. As well, the majority of people do not own a gun, not even close. Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10 seconds without preparing with lungs full of air to start. The struggling is an instinctive reaction, not a voluntary one. An injured animal that needs to be euthanized is already in terror to the extreme. It can't become any worse, all that needs to be done is to stop that terror as fast as possible. Debate it all you want, but do a little investigation first (like research ) before you dismiss it due to lack knowledge. > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a > big breath like a human might. Unconsciousness happens in less than 10 > seconds What is your source for this information? I don't believe it. A neighbor of mine had a problem with feral cats nesting under his deck, and he drowned some of them years ago. He said they would struggle for a good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started shooting them instead. Charlie > > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on > > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Charlie This would concur with what I witnessed. Slightly less in pure fact. They were only kittens, & he had to find & catch them first too It was dreadful & something I never wish to see or support again!! :o( Sheelagh >"o"< On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@users.easynews.com> wrote: > > Drowning (or suffocation as it might be called) brings on > > unconsciousness within a few seconds. An animal does not know to take a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Charlie I have a hard time believing it too. It came to our attention that a animal control in a neighboring town was trapping skunks, and drowning them in the traps. I lobbied hard over this. I don't care if they *are* skunks, I thought it was a terrible, frightening, and inhumane way to die. Sherry > On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@users.easynews.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Sherry Mark Twain said this: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." It's easy enough to research topics like this on the web and find out what the experts think. The American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia (June 2007) can be found here: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia and is inhumane." Charlie >> On Aug 17, 2:08 pm, Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@users.easynews.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia > and is inhumane." Note that those are guidelines for vets. In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first. "Dan Espen" <daneNO@MORE.mk.SPAMtelcordia.com> wrote in message > > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods > > of Euthanasia" with the comment, "Drowning is not a form of euthanasia [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In a veterinary context there are many methods available that bring > on sudden death or allow for the animal to be sedated first. Thank you. I never said that there weren't easier and more acceptable methods of euthanasia. All I was trying to get across was that when an animal was in extreme agony and distress and the more accepted methods of putting an animal down were not immediately available, then I consider it more humane to use a fairly quick method to kill the animal. Despite the squeamishness of some of the respondents in this conversation, drowning is a relatively quick method. As to the person that was requesting my source for this information, my source works in the veterinary industry, but has absolutely no intent on becoming personally involved in this conversation. If that's not good enough for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of course) > "Dan Espen" <dan...@MORE.mk.SPAMtelcordia.com> wrote in message > > > Drowning is listed in "Appendix 4 - Some Unacceptable Agents and Methods [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of > course) If that's not good enough > for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and present > your information to the contrary. (with your sources for that information of > course) I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the trouble of producing. It would seem that I am one of those too squeamish to stick a kittens head in a bucket of water, & remain holding it there until the poor creatures struggles ceased. Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the veterinary surgeons findings. Sheelagh>"o"< "Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > I believe he did, in appendix 4, if you wish to read it. If you follow > the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the > trouble of producing. And if *you* had read further, you'd have seen Dan mention that those findings were for vets. Since we're not vets, that doesn't leave the much easier option of a sedative and then a shot to kill the kitten. > Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to > try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further > distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the > veterinary surgeons findings. Then you'd be actively forcing the kitten to live and suffer a longer period until you found some method that was less squeamish for you to use. Personally, I think that's pretty selfish. Tell me Sheelagh, if you had your guts ripped out and you were screaming in agony with nothing left for you to scream for quite a few minutes more until you slowly bled to death, would you accept being suffocated into unconsciousness within several seconds? I don't know about you, but I sure would. "Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > > Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to > try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further > distress. In all honesty, I think we both have an animal's welfare at heart, just that we might take different routes to do something about it. Say what you want, I'm finished with this thread. > Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to > try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further > distress. You will understand what I mean when you take a look at the > veterinary surgeons findings. > Sheelagh>"o"< For what it's worth....(I have been following this thread) I am 72 years old. (Yesterday was my birthday) When I was about 30, I drowned a mouse by holding it under water. (We had an infestation of mice, and I caught this one without a trap, so I drowned it.) That was 42 years ago.....I will never forget it, and I have never drowned anything else since. The point? - Just be advised that some of the things you might do when you are 30 will not sit well with you when you are older, so think well before you act....... >> Perhaps you are right? I just don't have the stomach or confidence to >> try, for fear that I would be putting the poor kitten through further [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >are 30 will not sit well with you when you are older, so think well before >you act....... Many happy returns to you William, & I hope that you had a very happy birthday? I have no intention of continuing an argument here either. I just felt it was a method I didn't feel comfortable with, *personally*. I wholeheartedly agree with what you had to say though William. You do see things differently as you get older. I can never forget the sight of what I saw, & it doesn't get easier as the years pass. It gets harder to understand. Why would one wait for kittens to get to around 6 weeks of age, before even considering dealing with the issue? I just felt it was barbaric, because of the sight of what I saw. I guess, Sadly I will never never get to the answer to that one. Sheelagh >"o"< SignatureSheelagh >"o"< > If that's not good enough >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the link, you will see his findings in the research he went to the > trouble of producing. I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing" their cat in this manner... www.ajnews.com Charlie > > If that's not good enough > >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Charlie and I ran across a news article about a > couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing" > their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate it. Is it on a different page Charlie? Sheelagh>"o"< "Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > > I spent about 45 minutes on this and chose the most authoritative source > > among many. I also discovered that drowning animals is against the law > > in quite a few jurisdictions, and I ran across a news article about a > > couple in Arizona who were arrested earlier this month for "euthanizing" > > their cat in this manner...www.ajnews.com > It, is probably almost stuck up my nose,but I can't seem to locate > it. > Is it on a different page Charlie? > Sheelagh>"o"< I have one more comment on this. These examples of euthanizing and arrests and all that stuff. Were these cats severely injured when they were drowned or were they for the most part healthy cats? That's what we're talking about, euthanizing a severely injured cat. If someone killed a cat for another reason, then that has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion. *When* you find that link, research under what circumstances these cats were euthanized. *THEN* go and find me examples of someone being convicted for drowning a severely injured kitty. Until you can do that, you or Charlie or whoever wants to comment have no rebuttal to what I've been talking about. >"Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_madden@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >drowning a severely injured kitty. Until you can do that, you or Charlie or >whoever wants to comment have no rebuttal to what I've been talking about. I have no quarrel with you @ all. Initially, my response was merely to advise you that Wendy has been involved with rescue work for many years, & IMHO, you couldn't possibly criticize her for delaying the quick relief of death to stop the kitten's suffering, because she would never do that. I know that she released that kitten from it's misery as soon as we reasonably possible. Someone who goes to the trouble of caring for abused animals, is hardly likely to cause further hardship to an already sad case of unreasonable misery The debate about whether or not drowning is a quick mercy killing however, is open to debate. It is not a criticism of your opinion, because everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, though I wouldn't personally agree with you. I gave my personal reason's as noted in this thread. My grand father drowned some kittens on his farm, & I happened to witness it & found it profoundly distressing, "personally". I think that Charlie was simply bringing another dimension to the thread by notifying the group that in some states in the USA, it is actually a crime( Felony?) to drown a cat or kitten, whatever the circumstances, which I didn't know until he advised us. I have since researched the same subject out of personal interest, & I am glad to find that it is also the case in the UK too. The information that you are asking for, is actually provided for you in the link Charlie produced in appendix 4; *this is in the case of a mercy killing*, as you asked for. I agree with you, this thread has the potential to lead to an area that I have no wish to become entangled in. It is an emotive subject, so bound to produce feelings that are extreme. This will be my final post too. Sometimes it is better to agree to disagree, than it is to shout so that your voice is heard. That, I feel, is unseemly & unnecessary here. Sheelagh>"o"< SignatureSheelagh >"o"< >> > If that's not good enough >> >> for you, then feel perfectly free to research the topic yourself and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Is it on a different page Charlie? > Sheelagh>"o"< They changed the content on that site. Here is another link: http://tinyurl.com/37lfcs Charlie "Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in message > good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started > shooting them instead. Unconsciousness happens in a few seconds, but yes the involuntary struggles or twitches can take longer. The point is that the animal would be unconscious and not feeling any pain. Isn't that the point of euthanasia in any form, to curtail pain? > "Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in message >> good 3 minutes, and after about the second or third one, he started [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would be unconscious and not feeling any pain. Isn't that the point of > euthanasia in any form, to curtail pain? What is the source of your information? Charlie >>> > "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message >>> >> least bit quick or painless. Suffocating and having one's lungs fill [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> Best Wishes, >> Sheelagh>"o"< Oh Cindy, I didn't think that at all. I was merely making the point that I didn't agree with the poster who insinuated that Wendy wasted time leaving the kitten in pain. They obviously didn't know her very well, because If they had, they would never have made that tasteless hurtful comment about Wendy wasting precious time. She would never do that! I would have done exactly the same thing too. I think most of us have been faced with a horrible experience like this, whether it be a bird falling out of a nest, to a cat getting run over. You assess the situation, then make your choice, & go with it in the fastest possible way. The only person that I agreed with actually, was Charlie. Unfortunately in the UK, we are not allowed to carry guns without a speacial licence to ( And I don't want to go into another debate about that either!), I would have to rush the animal down to a farm near by & get the game keeper to do this for me. I am neither practised in using a gun, or have the guts to do it in case I made a mistake & left the poor animal in even more pain. I admit this freely. I have read Upscale's comment, but I don't have to agree with it. A few years back, it was fairly common practise for people to drown kittens in the UK. ( I mean going back 30+ years or so) I can remember my grandfather killing the kittens on his farm. Thinking back, this is probably what put me off the idea, & why I feel that I can't agree with it either. Like the silence of the lambs, I have never forgotten the struggle of those kittens, or the needless loss of life when the cat could easily have been spayed. Because we lived abroad, I only ever saw him do it that once, but that was enough to last me a lifetime. Everyone has what they feel is an acceptable opinion, & none of us will ever agree with the other's method. I think the best thing that we can do here, is to respect the others opinion, & agree to disagree. <Hark @ me, Lol> Last week, we lost a old regular to the feeding bowl. I can only thank the powers that be, that he was killed outright, & that I was not faced with the dreadful situation that poor Wendy found herself in. I hold admiration for all the good things she has done for cats over the years, including putting this kitten out of it's misery. Sheelagh>"o"< SignatureSheelagh >"o"< >Seriously, I'm not sure >since 9/11/2001, but I THINK America is still free enough that if you The Swiss Army Knife of all answers, should now be a corollary of Godwin's law. Well then, PLONK the kook, Aleks > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Skye > These are two different cats: > > 1. Generally speaking, how old can a queen be and still be going into > heat and producing offspring? In other words, please God, is there > such a thing as feline menopause??? :-/ I used to breed, & the eldest queen that I knew about was 8 years old. Generally a breeder would be wise enough to retire their Queen by 5 years old though. To ask a Queen to breed beyond that age, would be to entertain trouble & strife, & unfair on the cat. If you can see that her teats are enlarged & pink, then I suggest that you get yourself & your cat to the vet asap. Unlike USA, over in the UK (where I am posting from), We have to find a vet who would ethically be willing to spay the Queen & abort her kittens. Nonetheless, find a vet to fit her into their surgery ASAP & have her spayed to ensure that this never happens again.... I am sorry, but I can't answer your question regarding feline menopause, because I always spayed my Queens before 5 years of age. However, It's Possible that another person here might be able to answer that for you. > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every > few days, she's spotting blood from the vulva. Not much though, and > otherwise she acts fine. Is this normal, or should I be contacting > the > vet? YES!! Ring your vet right now & ask if they can squeeze her into their schedule, PLEASE? No, it is not normal at all! I know that you really aren't going to want to hear this, but it needs to be said. If she is a first time queen, & she is spotting, it doesn't bode well for future pregnancies. If you are a breeder, I realise that you are going to continue to try mating her @ least once more time, to see if you can recoup your money for your Queen. If this is the case, & this happens again, I really would recommend that you spay her ASAP, & either keep her as a pet, or sell her. PLEASE, ensure that you spay her if she is a registered Queen, & do not sell her as a registered Queen. I say this because there are unscrupulous breeders that would do this, if only to get their money back, but it would be quite possibly at the expense of her life. Please, do think carefully about this one. My advice is to spay both her & your older Queen. If you feel that you can't do both, then have your elder Queen first, & fast too?! Sheelagh >"o"< On Aug 14, 11:26 am, "Sheelagh >o<" <sheelagh_mad...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > I used to breed, & the eldest queen that I knew about was 8 years old. > Generally a breeder would be wise enough to retire their Queen by 5 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > into their surgery ASAP & have her spayed to ensure that this never > happens again.... Thanks for your kind response. Please see my reply to Cindy S. about the older cat . > > 2. I've got another younger cat, first time queen, shows all the > > symptoms of pregnancy - more than a month along. However, every [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > realise that you are going to continue to try mating her @ least once > more time, to see if you can recoup your money for your Queen. Thank you, Sheelagh, that's the main thing I wanted to know. Skye
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