Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / July 2007
Pro-Plan versus Fancy Feast
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cindys - 24 Jun 2007 18:40 GMT Alex was recently off his food for a couple of days, so my vet suggested that I try (canned) Pro-Plan (for the sake of its ostensible palatability), which I did. He seemed to like a few of the flavors. However, in looking at the labels, it lists by-products amongst the first four ingredients of mosty of its flavors (at least the ones I checked), and it's made by the Purina company just like Fancy Feast, which I buy for my cats (in addition to the Wellness), but I do consider the Fancy Feast to be "junk food" for cats. To my mind, I can't see much difference between Pro-Plan and Fancy Feast. I didn't mind buying the Pro-Plan because Alex did like it, and it was on sale this week at Petco, which brought it down to the same price as the Fancy Feast at the supermarket, but does anyone here think there is any real difference in quality between the two? Thanks in advance. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
cybercat - 24 Jun 2007 19:34 GMT > Wellness), but I do consider the Fancy Feast to be "junk food" for cats. Based upon what ingredients?
cindys - 24 Jun 2007 20:10 GMT >> Wellness), but I do consider the Fancy Feast to be "junk food" for cats. > > Based upon what ingredients? ---------- I am troubled by the byproducts as opposed to 100% organ meats. But you make a good point...When I say FF is "junk food for cats," I am in fact parroting what other people have said. Why do people call it "junk food?" The expression "junk food" implies that a product contains a lot of tasty albeit non-nutritious fillers. I don't know that I would actually classify FF that way. I do believe that Wellness is a much better quality product, but that doesn't mean that FF is a "junk food." FTR, my cats prefer FF to Wellness. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
cybercat - 24 Jun 2007 21:25 GMT >>> Wellness), but I do consider the Fancy Feast to be "junk food" for cats. >> >> Based upon what ingredients? > ---------- > I am troubled by the byproducts as opposed to 100% organ meats. I am confused by your use of "byproducts as opposed to 100% organ meats." I thought organ meats were included in the term "byproducts" and that when an ingredient is listed as "beef, chicken," and so forth that it was muscle meat. I could be wrong.
In any case, there are several flavors in which meat, not byproducts, is the first ingredient. For example, the flavor my cats eat more than any other is "Tender Beef Feast." The ingredients are listed below:
"Beef, Beef Broth, Liver, Fish, Meat Byproducts, Natural and artificial flavors, guar gum, potassium chloride, salt, taurie, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B-1), Vitamine E supplement, SodiumNitrite to promote color retention, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, magnesium sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, pyroxidine hydrochoride (Vitamin B6), Dicalcium phosphate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, Riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B-2), Cobalt carbonate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, Menadione Bisodium Sulfate Complex (Source of Vitamin K activity), Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Biotin."
I asked my vet about these ingredients and she said most are vitamin supplements and some are preservatives. The only one that makes me nervous is sodium nitrite, due to the many studies linking this preservative to cancer in lab rats, but then again, it is in my ham and hot dogs too.
Wellness beef and chicken canned cat food, one of the five flavors it offers that are grain free (important for my cat because she has allergies, and for every cat because grains are used as fillers and cats need meat) has the following ingredients:
Beef & Chicken Ingredients: Beef, Chicken Liver, Deboned Chicken, Beef Broth, Sweet Potatoes, Carrots, Vegetable Gums, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Alfalfa, Cranberries, Blueberries, Yellow Squash, Yellow Zucchini, Garlic, Dicalcium Phosphate, Spirulina, Taurine, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E, A, D-3, And B-12 Supplements, Beta Carotene, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Iron Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Iron Proteinate (Source Of Chelated Iron), Zinc Proteinate (Source Of Chelated Zinc), Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Copper Proteinate(Source Of Chelated Copper), Biotin, Manganese Proteinate (Source Of Chelated Manganese), Calcium Iodate, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Sodium Selenite.
I like the lack of artifical flavors in this Wellness. That could definitely be considered "junky," in my book, but handy when palatability is important, as with old cats and sick cats who must be encouraged to eat. I like that Wellness had no nitrites. I also like that the vitamins are chelated, which they are not in FF. (It is my understanding that chelation makes the compounds more available to the body.)
Otherwise, I see a bunch of vegetables and fruits designed to appeal to humans, but which cats, as obligate carnivores, can very likely do without. In addition, garlic has been demonstrated to cause health problems for cats, so it has no place in cat food, and again, appeals more to humans than cats.
I also noticed that at the site I checked, a 3-oz can of Wellness beef and chicken is 99 cents, whereas Fancy Feast runs 44 to 65 cents most places. I would not pay twice the price for the few benefits I see there for my cats, particularly since the negatives--starch where there should be protein and the addition of garlic--are pretty big ones.
I also noted that the 5.5 oz can of beef and chicken Wellness could be had for $1.19 at the web site I visited, which brings it down around the price of Fancy Feast.
I like these kinds of discussions. Thanks.
cindys - 24 Jun 2007 23:14 GMT >>>> Wellness), but I do consider the Fancy Feast to be "junk food" for >>>> cats. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and that when an ingredient is listed as "beef, chicken," and so forth > that it was muscle meat. I could be wrong. Check out this website for a description of meat byproducts: http://www.aplus-flint-river-ranch.com/define-animal-byproducts.php?win=small While I understand that Flint River Ranch is promoting its own pet food (and knocking others), what this website is describing is very similar to what I have read on other websites. The "muscle meats" are first quality meats from the muscle itself (as opposed to the intestine, feet, skin etc i.e. rendered byproducts). It is illegal to put meat byproducts in human grade food.
> In any case, there are several flavors in which meat, not byproducts, is > the first ingredient. For example, the flavor my cats eat more than any > other is "Tender Beef Feast." The ingredients are listed below: You don't have to sell me on the "Tender Beef Feast." I have an entire shelf filled with it and two cases of it on order from Pet Food Direct. As far as I can tell, it's the only variety of FF that doesn't list byproducts in the first four ingredients.
> Wellness beef and chicken canned cat food, one of the five flavors > it offers that are grain free (important for my cat because she has > allergies, The only flavor of Wellness I have ever given my cats is the Beef and Chicken. It's not that I would be averse to trying the other flavors but Wellness is not readily available to me in a store (unlike FF, which I could buy at the supermarket but order only for convenience). So, I am reluctant to get stuck with an entire case of cat food my cats won't eat. The first time I ordered, I knew that Beef and Chicken was a safe bet, but I would be afraid to order the Chicken and Herring flavor, for example because Pet Food Direct is by the case only, and I don't know if my cats would like that flavor.
snip for brevity
>
> Otherwise, I see a bunch of vegetables and fruits designed to appeal to > humans, but I agree completely. As one person on this group quipped, no one's ever heard of packs of cats hanging out in cranberry bogs.
> which cats, as obligate carnivores, can very likely do without. In > addition, garlic has > been demonstrated to cause health problems for cats, so it has no place in > cat food, > and again, appeals more to humans than cats. Cats like the taste of garlic, and it's added to the food to make the food more palatable for them. I did ask my vet about this, and she said that the amount of garlic in the cat food was minute and not enough to harm them. Nevertheless, Wellness does make some garlic-free flavors because a lot of cat owners don't want to give their cats the food with the garlic.
> I also noticed that at the site I checked, a 3-oz can of Wellness beef and > chicken is 99 cents, When I order from Pet Food Direct, the regular price of a case (24 cans) of the 5.5-oz sized can of Wellness is $27 and change (that's before the discount, tax, and shipping). The 20% discount more or less wipes out the shipping charge and then some. So, in the end I'm paying around a dollar a can for the 5.5-oz size of Wellness (give or take a few cents). The FF does not come in 5.5-oz cans. It comes only in 3 oz cans. This time, it was on sale from Pet Food Direct, so I got it for 41 cents a can (the sale may still be on - check it out - $9.99 per case and the GEICO promotional code is 20% off). The regular price for FF in my supermarket is 48 cents for the 3-oz can, so in the end, the difference in price between FF and Wellness is negligible (around a dollar a can for 5.5 oz Wellness versus about a dollar for two cans of 3-oz FF).
> whereas Fancy Feast runs 44 to 65 cents most places. I would not pay twice > the price for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the web site I visited, which brings it down around the price of Fancy > Feast. I should have read further down your note before writing my shpiel above. Agreed. Today, I went to Petco to get the Pro-Plan on sale for 50 cents for a 3-oz can (regular price 79 cents). The Pro-Plan Selects are a lot like the Wellness (first four or five ingredents are organ meats, no meat byproducts, followed by the usual list of useless vegetables and berries). They seem to be much better quality than the regular Pro-Plan where many of the flavors contain the byproducts and wheat gluten and fillers. When I got up to the register, it turned out that Selects were not on sale...only the regular Pro-Plan was on sale. I was not inclined to pay 79 cents for a 3-oz can of cat food. As I said in the beginning, my gut feeling is that Pro-Plan is the same as FF under a different label. It's one thing to pay 48 cents for FF, but I wouldn't pay 79 cents for 3 ounces of any cat food (unless it were some special prescription food from the vet)
> I like these kinds of discussions. Thanks. Me too. On my list of "to read" books is Ann Martin's book _The Foods Pets Die For_. It was written in 1996 long before the melamine problem. I mentioned it to my vet this past week. She said she had never heard of it. I read an excerpt on Amazon, and it made my hair stand on end. Here's another point about Wellness: It's manufactured in a factory where human food is manufactured as well and is considered human grade food, therefore it has to meet FDA standards, unlike pet foods which are produced in a pet food factory (which would include the Pro-Plan and Fancy Feast - which our cats love so much). If it seems like the information in the book is for real, I'll order a copy for my vet as well.
Thanks for a good discussion. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
Matthew - 24 Jun 2007 19:34 GMT > Alex was recently off his food for a couple of days, so my vet suggested > that I try (canned) Pro-Plan (for the sake of its ostensible [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. I have Rumble on a Fancy feast diet to control his diabetes. I have had several vets including mine and also several members of this group recommend me to use Fancy Feast to help his diabetes. Rumble has had a positive result and been on insulin for over a year being on this diet. I use any of the varieties that have gravy in them that are not roasted, grilled or minced
cybercat - 24 Jun 2007 19:42 GMT > I have Rumble on a Fancy feast diet to control his diabetes. I have had > several vets including mine and also several members of this group > recommend me to use Fancy Feast to help his diabetes. Rumble has had a > positive result and been on insulin for over a year being on this diet. I > use any of the varieties that have gravy in them that are not roasted, > grilled or minced *scratching my head* What does that leave?
(I cannot use the kind with gravy because they almost always have some wheat gluten, and I am pretty sure wheat is what Gracie is allergic to.)
Matthew - 24 Jun 2007 20:11 GMT >> I have Rumble on a Fancy feast diet to control his diabetes. I have had >> several vets including mine and also several members of this group [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (I cannot use the kind with gravy because they almost always have some > wheat gluten, and I am pretty sure wheat is what Gracie is allergic to.) I have no choice for Rumble he will not eat anything that does not have gravy in it. I can't use roasted, minced, or grilled since it has higher levels in it
cindys - 24 Jun 2007 20:23 GMT >> Alex was recently off his food for a couple of days, so my vet suggested >> that I try (canned) Pro-Plan (for the sake of its ostensible [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > use any of the varieties that have gravy in them that are not roasted, > grilled or minced ---------- The truth of the matter is that when Alex was first diagnosed with diabetes, and the vet told me to switch him to canned, I started feeding him Friskies Special Diet and supermarket-brand canned cat food at 25 cents a can. And his blood sugar returned to normal, and he was doing fine even on these products. Then, I moved to FF because I considered that it was better quality. As time went on, after reading this newsgroup, and after I did a bunch of reading on the internet about the importance/quality of muscle meats as opposed to byproducts and after I read some excerpts from the book _Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts, and then of course the melamine thing, I wanted to feed my cats human grade cat food which by definition cannot contain byproducts. I also needed to choose one that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was how I eventually came to Wellness. At one point, I was buying Pet Promise, which I still think is an excellent quality food, but it does contain rice and potatoes. I had asked my vet if she thought FF was a good choice, and she stated that she wouldn't recommend any supermarket pet food. I currently have been feeding my cats Wellness and FF because they really like it (despite the byproducts). My cats seem to only be willing to eat the pate varieties. I try to avoid the varieties that are chunks or slices in gravy because my cats just lick off the gravy and leave the rest. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
cybercat - 24 Jun 2007 21:29 GMT > ----------
>I try to avoid the varieties that are chunks or slices in gravy because my >cats just lick off the gravy and leave the rest. Mine do this too!
Phil P. - 24 Jun 2007 23:19 GMT Hiya Cindi,
> products. Then, I moved to FF because I considered that it was better > quality. It is- much higher protein content.
As time went on, after reading this newsgroup, and after I did a
> bunch of reading on the internet about the importance/quality of muscle > meats as opposed to byproducts Actually, by-products contain *much* more nutrients than muscle meats. Muscle meat (skeletal meat) is very deficient in most vitamins and minerals, Cats in the wild eat much more by-products than skeletal meat
and after I read some excerpts from the book
> _Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts, Oh no! Not Ann Martin! LOL! We sliced, diced and shredded most of her bullshit exaggerations a few years ago. She hasn't been back since. Her bullshit claims and exaggerations didn't stand up to scrutiny. She took a few isolated instances from a few low-end generic pet food manufacturers and extrapolated then to the whole pet food industry. If you ask me, she isn't playing with a full deck--
and then of
> course the melamine thing, A real nightmare for sure. But that was actually caused by one person. Watch the incidence of CRF in cats start declining. The person didn't just decide to dump a load of melamine in the wheat gluten- it was gradual-- to see how much he could get away with-
I wanted to feed my cats human grade cat food
> which by definition cannot contain byproducts. I'm not sure you really understand what by-products are. Human foods contain by-products.
This is the AAFCO definition:
"Meat by-products is the non-rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low temperature fatty tissue, and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hoofs. It shall be suitable for use in animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond thereto. (9.3)"
I also needed to choose one
> that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was how I > eventually came to Wellness. I don't know if you know that Wellnesss is manufactured by Menu Foods, too. Wellness also contains a lot of vegetables which have a higher glycemic index than most grains.
At one point, I was buying Pet Promise, which I
> still think is an excellent quality food, but it does contain rice and > potatoes. I had asked my vet if she thought FF was a good choice, and she > stated that she wouldn't recommend any supermarket pet food. Most vets are clueless about nutrition. They're "educated" by pet food manufacturers' reps.
I currently
> have been feeding my cats Wellness and FF because they really like it > (despite the byproducts). My cats seem to only be willing to eat the pate > varieties. I try to avoid the varieties that are chunks or slices in gravy > because my cats just lick off the gravy and leave the rest. > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. I'm really happy you've weaned your cat off insulin!!! I've weaned several diabetic cats off insulin by feeding them Fancy Feast Oceanfish and Tuna. I also had good results with Nutro California Chicken a few years ago, but I think Nutro changed their formula. Nutro is another company that used to make great food but slid dow the pole.
Best of luck,
Phil
Cheryl - 25 Jun 2007 01:35 GMT > and then of >> course the melamine thing, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wheat gluten- it was gradual-- to see how much he could get away > with- Interesting thought. I'd bet that you're right. I keep reading that CRF is the biggest killer illnesses in cats.
 Signature Cheryl
Matthew - 25 Jun 2007 01:53 GMT "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com>
I don't know if you say or not Phil but Rumble has been one year off of insulin due to your and a few others recommendations
THANK YOU ALL AGAIN
cindys - 27 Jun 2007 16:55 GMT > Hiya Cindi, Hi yourself, Phil!
>> products. Then, I moved to FF because I considered that it was better >> quality. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > minerals, > Cats in the wild eat much more by-products than skeletal meat I thought the by-products were processed parts of the animals, parts that were unusable for humans and would be rejected by the FDA.
> and after I read some excerpts from the book >> _Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts, > > Oh no! Not Ann Martin! LOL! We sliced, diced and shredded most of her > bullshit exaggerations a few years ago. She hasn't been back since. Thanks for saving me time and money. I was going to buy her book. Now, I won't.
>Her > bullshit claims and exaggerations didn't stand up to scrutiny. She took a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > A real nightmare for sure. But that was actually caused by one person. Yup.
>Watch > the incidence of CRF in cats start declining. The person didn't just > decide > to dump a load of melamine in the wheat gluten- it was gradual-- to see > how > much he could get away with- Yup.
> I wanted to feed my cats human grade cat food >> which by definition cannot contain byproducts. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > animal food. If it bears name descriptive of its kind, it must correspond > thereto. (9.3)" This is just the opposite of what I thought the byproducts were. I thought they were rendered, nonclean parts etc and *did* include horns, hair, teeth, hoofs, etc However, I *thought* I got my information regarding the preferability of muscle meats from the website where the veterinarian explains about cat food and then recommends a few different ones, but I've read so many things, I really can't say for sure.
> I also needed to choose one >> that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was how [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Wellness also contains a lot of vegetables which have a higher glycemic > index than most grains. Interesting.
> At one point, I was buying Pet Promise, which I >> still think is an excellent quality food, but it does contain rice and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Most vets are clueless about nutrition. They're "educated" by pet food > manufacturers' reps. I can't speak for the supermarket brand, but I did know the Pet Promise was good food and it was available in the supermarket. When I asked the vet about it, she was completely unfamiliar with it.
> I currently >> have been feeding my cats Wellness and FF because they really like it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm really happy you've weaned your cat off insulin!!! It happened almost immediately after I put him on canned food (and Purina OM dry).
>I've weaned several > diabetic cats off insulin by feeding them Fancy Feast Oceanfish and Tuna. That's another flavor I sometimes buy in addition to the Tender Beef Feast.
Phil, I just want to thank you again for all your help. I also want to share with you (and don't ask me how this could be, but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth), that Alex's BUN is back to being within normal limits. His creatinine is still abnormal but has come down considerably and is much closer to the normal range. I followed your advice and did not put him on low protein cat food (contrary to the vet's advice). I also give him potassium and omega-3 supplementation on the basis of your advice. I have done subcu fluids a few times, but overall not, as the vet says he doesn't really need them at this point. I can't say he's bouncy and perky, but for a senior cat, he's doing okay. I do give him Pepcid daily now and that seems to keep his appetite up. The vet now says he seems stable, and even though he has CRF, he could potentially stay at his current numbers for several years without the disease actually progressing.
Once again, thank you so much for all your help. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
>I > also had good results with Nutro California Chicken a few years ago, but I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Phil Rhonda - 27 Jun 2007 19:51 GMT > This is just the opposite of what I thought the byproducts were. I thought > they were rendered, nonclean parts etc and *did* include horns, hair, teeth, > hoofs, etc However, I *thought* I got my information regarding the > preferability of muscle meats from the website where the veterinarian > explains about cat food and then recommends a few different ones, but I've > read so many things, I really can't say for sure. Hey Cindy,
This was an interesting bit of additional grossness from one cat site:
-------------------- Definition: Meat By-Products are parts of slaughtered animals, not including meat (please note: no muscle meat included). Included are lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, liver, blood, bone, partially defatted low-temperature fatty tissue, and stomach and intestines freed of their contents.
What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal."
From: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/meatbyprod.htm --------------------
Ick!
And don't get me started on gelatin for humans. I can no longer eat Jello (or gummi bears for that matter) since I found out it's boiled bones and tissues and stuff.
Charlie -- the sun will come out tomorrow.
Rhonda
cindys - 27 Jun 2007 20:39 GMT >> This is just the opposite of what I thought the byproducts were. I >> thought they were rendered, nonclean parts etc and *did* include horns, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > From: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/meatbyprod.htm > -------------------- This is what I previously read as well (but on a different website). That was precisely why I was trying to avoid cat food with byproducts. Best regards, ---Cindy S.
> Ick! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rhonda cybercat - 27 Jun 2007 21:18 GMT > Hey Cindy, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > From: http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/meatbyprod.htm > -------------------- Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain euthanized dogs and cats and their collars.
Horse sh.t.
Rhonda - 28 Jun 2007 08:30 GMT >>Hey Cindy, >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Horse sh.t. Oh no. Horse sh.t is now in pet foods too?
Rhonda ;)
cybercat - 28 Jun 2007 14:06 GMT "Rhonda" <san-toki@att.remove.net> wrote :
>> Rhonda, I don't believe that the pet food we buy in the US can contain >> euthanized dogs and cats and their collars. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rhonda ;) hahaha!
What a style you have!
cybercat - 27 Jun 2007 21:26 GMT > What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally > contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized > cats and dogs, including their collars. These source products are > rendered, the fat is siphoned off to be used as "animal fat," and the > remaining material is extruded to form "meat by-product meal." I note that although the author puts this section in quotes, she does not name her source. I looked but can't find a way to email her from the site. It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true to me.
cindys - 27 Jun 2007 22:40 GMT >> What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally >> contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > name her source. I looked but can't find a way to email her from the site. > It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true to me. -------- Maybe her source was Ann Martin ? Best regards, ---Cindy S.
Cheryl - 28 Jun 2007 02:48 GMT >> What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also >> legally contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > her from the site. It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true > to me. Nothing about pet food surprises me anymore. What I go on is how my cats health is. Are they thriving? Suffering? I'm beginning to think that bloodwork at every yearly exam has to be done. We need baselines of their health.
 Signature Cheryl
Rhonda - 28 Jun 2007 08:35 GMT >>What AAFCO doesn't mention is that meat byproducts may also legally >>contain: "4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, down), road kill, euthanized [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > name her source. I looked but can't find a way to email her from the site. > It may be true, but it sure doesn't ring true to me. Okay, I read a few more sites. Below is part of an interesting one. I think from now on I'm just going to feed our cats mice. -Rhonda
Animal Protein
Dogs and cats are carnivores, and do best on a meat-based diet. The protein used in pet food comes from a variety of sources. When cattle, swine, chickens, lambs, or other animals are slaughtered, lean muscle tissue is trimmed away from the carcass for human consumption, along with the few organs that people like to eat, such as tongues and tripe.
However, about 50% of every food animal does not get used in human foods. Whatever remains of the carcass — heads, feet, bones, blood, intestines, lungs, spleens, livers, ligaments, fat trimmings, unborn babies, and other parts not generally consumed by humans — is used in pet food, animal feed, fertilizer, industrial lubricants, soap, rubber, and other products. These “other parts” are known as “by-products.” By-products are used in feed for poultry and livestock as well as in pet food.
The nutritional quality of by-products, meals, and digests can vary from batch to batch. James Morris and Quinton Rogers, of the University of California at Davis Veterinary School, assert that, “[pet food] ingredients are generally by-products of the meat, poultry and fishing industries, with the potential for a wide variation in nutrient composition. Claims of nutritional adequacy of pet foods based on the current Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) nutrient allowances (‘profiles’) do not give assurances of nutritional adequacy and will not until ingredients are analyzed and bioavailability values are incorporated.”3
Meat or poultry “by-products” are very common in wet pet foods. Remember that “meat” refers to only cows, swine, sheep, and goats. Since sheep and goats are rare compared to the 37 million cows and 100 million hogs slaughtered for food every year, nearly all meat by-products come from cattle and pigs.
The better brands of pet food, such as many “super-premium,” “natural,” and “organic” varieties, do not use by-products. On the label, you’ll see one or more named meats among the first few ingredients, such as “turkey” or “lamb.” These meats are still mainly leftover scraps; in the case of poultry, bones are allowed, so “chicken” consists mainly of backs and frames—the spine and ribs, minus their expensive breast meat. The small amount of meat left on the bones is the meat in the pet food. Even with this less-attractive source, pet food marketers are very tricky when talking about meat, so this is explained further in the section on “Marketing Magic” below.
Meat meals, poultry meals, by-product meals, and meat-and-bone meal are common ingredients in dry pet foods. The term “meal” means that these materials are not used fresh, but have been rendered. While there are chicken, turkey, and poultry by-product meals there is no equivalent term for mammal “meat by-product meal” — it is called “meat-and-bone-meal.” It may also be referred to by species, such as “beef-and-bone-meal” or “pork-and-bone-meal.”
What is rendering? As defined by Webster’s Dictionary, to render is “to process as for industrial use: to render livestock carcasses and to extract oil from fat, blubber, etc., by melting.” In other words, raw materials are dumped into large vat and boiled for several hours. Rendering separates fat, removes water, and kills bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other organisms. However, the high temperatures used (270°F/130°C) can alter or destroy natural enzymes and proteins found in the raw ingredients.
Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Industry insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet food some years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations against it, the practice is uncommon today, and pet food companies universally deny that their products contain any such materials. However, so-called “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were only recently banned for human consumption and are still legitimate ingredients for pet food.
http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=359&more=1
cybercat - 28 Jun 2007 14:10 GMT "Rhonda" <san-toki@att.remove.net> wrote :
> Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs > and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (dead, dying, diseased, disabled) were only recently banned for human > consumption and are still legitimate ingredients for pet food. If no cat or dog DNA, then no pets. Good to know.
Maybe the pentobarbital is used to euthanize injured livestock? Thanks for looking this up for me, Rhonda.
-L. - 30 Jun 2007 07:51 GMT <sniperoo>
> Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs > and cats, the FDA conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most > common euthanasia drug, in pet foods. They found it. Ingredients that > were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital were > meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very > sensitive tests to look for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or beef; if the product is heated at high enough temps the DNA is denatured resulting in false negatives; since there are tons of other enzymes floating around in the mix, the DNA is probably chewed beyond the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed.
I would be interested to see what positive controls they used in the experiments. Basically, they would need to add dog and/or cat bodies to processing-sized vats of other meats in different concentrations until the DNA could be detected, and then, IF the amount detected was small enough to be significant and easily detected, they could extrapolate whether or not production vats are likely to have contained dogs and/or cats based on their sampling results. To do this experiment properly, it would be extremely expensive. Knowing the FDA as I do, I find it highly unlikely that they did anything more than take multiple samples and test it for dog and cat DNA at *some* level, which may or may not be relevant.
Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer migraine today... -L.
Barry - 30 Jun 2007 15:51 GMT > Sorry if this doesn't make complete sense - I am surfing on a killer > migraine today... > -L. what's the problem
cybercat - 30 Jun 2007 15:56 GMT > Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show > up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the point where it could be found using PCR which is probably what > they used; and the experiments may be poorly designed. The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs to cats and dogs?
Phil P. - 30 Jun 2007 22:38 GMT > > Doesn't mean much. There are a number of ways the DNA might not show > > up: If dogs and cats are a minimal additive, as compared to cow or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs > to cats and dogs? I wouldn't give much credibility to anything written by the API . They're on the fringe-- right next to Ann Martin!
-L. - 02 Jul 2007 10:08 GMT > The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs > to cats and dogs? Cheap source of protein. The bodies are disposed of, anyway, so if they can be sent to a rendering plant and that material used in dog food - voila - income for whomever is selling the bodies. For the manufactuer, it's gotta be cheaper than cow, pig and chicken guts.
-L.
Rhonda - 04 Jul 2007 07:10 GMT >>The question is, why would anyone bother trying to feed cats and dogs >>to cats and dogs? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > food - voila - income for whomever is selling the bodies. For the > manufactuer, it's gotta be cheaper than cow, pig and chicken guts. It would be wonderful to know someone who works in the pet food industry and see what they had to say about the practice. Even if they buy byproducts in bulk from a plant they feel is reputable, how can they be 100% certain of the contents when exact byproduct ingredients do not need to be listed?
Rhonda
cookie - 04 Jul 2007 07:41 GMT > how can they be > 100% certain of the contents > > Rhonda by the date on the can silly <g>
yeah right! this bad cat food will stay bad till July 31st 2007
If I had the money, I'd hire a chef, who can also prepare the cats meals. but! how do I know the grocers chicken won't knock me out with foul chicken parts.
Phil P. - 30 Jun 2007 23:25 GMT > > Hiya Cindi, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I thought the by-products were processed parts of the animals, parts that > were unusable for humans and would be rejected by the FDA. Most of the cat's natural diet would be rejected by the FDA.
> > and after I read some excerpts from the book > >> _Foods Pets Die For_ and learned the source of those byproducts, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > explains about cat food and then recommends a few different ones, but I've > read so many things, I really can't say for sure. Who was the vat? Pitcairn? lol Go to the USDA Nutrient Database and look up the nutrient content of muscle meats-- you'll see they contain little to no vitamins and very little minerals.
By-products got a bad name from the au natural fanatics and Nutro.
> > I also needed to choose one > >> that contained few carbohydrates because of the diabetes and that was how [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > limits. His creatinine is still abnormal but has come down considerably and > is much closer to the normal range. I'm glad to hear it- but I'm not surprised- Omega-3s are renoprotective. My CRF cat's renal parameters are back in the normal range- even her USG has increased since I've been giving her omega-3s and K+ supplements.
I followed your advice and did not put
> him on low protein cat food (contrary to the vet's advice). I also give him > potassium and omega-3 supplementation on the basis of your advice. I'm very happy you decided against a low protein diet at this point.
I have
> done subcu fluids a few times, but overall not, as the vet says he doesn't > really need them at this point. I can't say he's bouncy and perky, but for a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. Thanks for the update- I love to hear good news for a change!
Phil
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