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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2007Are ginger females infertile?
Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white female! I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have tried searching the net to find out if this is true but have so far been unsucessfull!! If anyone knows the answer or can direct me in the right direction i would be very greatful. hilltownsend@btinternet.com cheers Cally > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white > female! I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cheers > Cally You might be mistaking this with calico males being infertile. All pet cats should be made infertile by spaying/neutering though.  SignatureCheryl > > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white > > female! I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Cheryl Aha Ha.. You have just cleared up a mystery for me too Cheryl. I have been looking @ the word Calico for months thinking " what on earth is a Calico", & You have just explained it for me. I had no idea that they were infertile BTW. I thought you were going to say that Ginger cats can mostly only be male cats! Thank you very much. S;o) > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white female! > I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have tried searching [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cheers > Cally Ginger females can get pregnant so you need to get her spayed if she isn't already. W > > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white female! > > I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have tried searching [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > W I thought that ginger females are very rare. Is this the case or just an urban myth? Thanks in advance, S;o) >I thought that ginger females are very rare. Is this the case or just >an urban myth? >Thanks in advance, >S;o) I was told that a female ginger cat was very rare, and because of this they are infertile! Which is why i was asking the question. >>I thought that ginger females are very rare. Is this the case or just >>an urban myth? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I was told that a female ginger cat was very rare, and because of this they > are infertile! Which is why i was asking the question. I have heard 80 percent of ginger cats are males. So it's a 1 out of 5 chance of having a female. I do know of a ginger female cat who just had 6 kittens. Rhonda >>>I thought that ginger females are very rare. Is this the case or just >>>an urban myth? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I do know of a ginger female cat who just had 6 kittens. Did she have white on her too? Like white paws or a bib or bikini? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I was told that a female ginger cat was very rare, and because of this > they > are infertile! Which is why i was asking the question. I have heard that gingers are usually make, and in my experience, I have never met a ginger cat that was a female unless she had a bunch of white too. If they are rare, it certainly does not follow that they are infertile. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > > > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white female! > > > I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have tried searching [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Slightly roundabout explanation: Calicos are normally female because two of the three color genes for it sit on the same spot on the X chromosomes--and normal male cats only have one X chromosome. So calicos can be female;, OR they can be double-X chromosome males. Only with two X's can a cat get all three of black, ginger, and white spotting genes. And double-X chromosome males are nearly always sterile. Female cats are much less likely to be solid ginger for essentially the same reason: they have two X chromosomes. The odds of getting the ginger gene on both X chromosomes is fairly low; usually the second one will have the white spotting gene, or black, or both. So only males are likely to get ONLY the ginger color gene. But a female who hits the jackpot and gets ginger on both X's, with no white spotting, is still genetically and chromosomally normal, and perfectly fertile. Or at least, not sterile because of that.:) Lis > Calicos are normally female because two of the three color genes for > it sit on the same spot on the X chromosomes--and normal male cats > only have one X chromosome. So calicos can be female;, OR they can be > double-X chromosome males. Only with two X's can a cat get all three > of black, ginger, and white spotting genes. And double-X chromosome > males are nearly always sterile. > Female cats are much less likely to be solid ginger for essentially > the same reason: they have two X chromosomes. The odds of getting the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is still genetically and chromosomally normal, and perfectly fertile. > Or at least, not sterile because of that.:) Are you saying that the gene for white coloring sits on the same spot on the X chromosome as the black and red color genes? I thought the white gene was located elsewhere. Otherwise, how could a cat end up with three colors, having only two chromosomes? The third gene would have to be someplace else. Torties have no white, but they are also almost all female, for the same reason as calicos. So I think the white-fur gene is a separate issue. I didn't know there were more ginger-and-white female cats than solid ginger. But you do have a point that in order to have a solid ginger cat, either both genes would have to be for orange, in the female case, and in the male case, you would only need the one orange-fur gene, since there wouldn't be a corresponding gene on the Y. I'm not sure why that ends up with 20% of solid-orange cats being female, but I haven't sat down to do the math. Joyce > > Calicos are normally female because two of the three color genes for > > it sit on the same spot on the X chromosomes--and normal male cats [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Joyce It was always my understanding that a calico cat was tri-colored with large defined patches of color surrounded by white, while a tortoiseshell had a very diffused pattern of color with no definite patches & that this could include some white. I've gone searching on the internet & found pictures of torties who definitely have some areas of white. If you're right, then all these years, Whiskey my first cat who was always referred to as a tortoiseshell & had a small bit of white under her chin & some on her belly (I think - she died 21 yrs ago) wasn't a tortie but a calico? Anyway, here's Whiskey who was either a tortoiseshell or a calico! http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2059908280050028271LNTsnF M. > It was always my understanding that a calico cat was tri-colored with large > defined patches of color surrounded by white, while a tortoiseshell had a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tortoiseshell & had a small bit of white under her chin & some on her belly > (I think - she died 21 yrs ago) wasn't a tortie but a calico? Oh, sorry - I didn't mean to confuse the issue. Some people will say that if a red-black cat has any white at all, then she's a calico. I would tend to agree with you that a cat with the diffused pattern of red and black is a tortie, whether or not there's some white, but that's just how I think of it. What I was trying to say with my last comment was just that there are torties with *no* white, and they are all female for the same reason that calicos are all female (except for XXY males) - the black and red genes are on the same place on the X chromosome, so you need two X's to have both colors. I don't think white comes into play with respect to this issue, that was my only point. > Anyway, here's Whiskey who was either a tortoiseshell or a calico! > http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2059908280050028271LNTsnF She looks like a tortie to me! But I guess some folks would say she's a calico, I don't know. Joyce > jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > > > Calicos are normally female because two of the three color genes for [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I'd call her a tortie-with-white, just like my Kahlua that this thread keeps cruelly reminding me of.:) (She died of kidney failure about ten years ago.) Lis > It was always my understanding that a calico cat was tri-colored with large > defined patches of color surrounded by white, while a tortoiseshell had a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tortoiseshell & had a small bit of white under her chin & some on her belly > (I think - she died 21 yrs ago) wasn't a tortie but a calico? Not in my experience. Diffuse spotting with or without a patch of white (usually on the chest or belly) to me has always been Tortie. Calicos have distinct patches of ginger, black, and white, or if "dilute" cream, grey and white. The white "spotted" gene is separate - it's called the "S" gene or "piebald" gene. Cats with this gene are usually called ________ with white, such as "tabby with white" or "black with white," etc. It's a partially dominant gene, so a cat that is not piebald that mates with another cat that is not piebald can have piebald kittens. A B&W tuxedo cat is piebald "black with white". -L. >> It was always my understanding that a calico cat was tri-colored with large >> defined patches of color surrounded by white, while a tortoiseshell had a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >-L. I think that describes my always misbehaving B&W boy, Little Devil. His fur has continued growing & he's now a medium long-haired cat (he was short- haired the 1st year or so). His top coat is now fairly long black hairs while some of his undercoat is shorter smoky grey hair & some is shorter black hair. The white on his chest, his socks, his chin & the tip of his tail is pure white. So are all tuxedo cats piebald? And conversely, are all black with white piebald cats tuxedos? If not, how do you differentiate by appearance? M. Little Devil as a kitten http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2802567120050028271FftTJS in 2005 http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2545172240050028271DDrSln last year http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2340096280050028271uaYpTs > I think that describes my always misbehaving B&W boy, Little Devil. His fur > has continued growing & he's now a medium long-haired cat (he was short- [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So are all tuxedo cats piebald? yes. >And conversely, are all black with white > piebald cats tuxedos? No. Some have bigger splotches of white and so would be called a B&W. > If not, how do you differentiate by appearance? The name "tuxedo" is a common name - I am not sure that it's actually used as a valid descriptor of appearance or confirmation. Tux cats can come in any color but are usually black with white or grey with white. There is usually a black head with or without some white on the nose, a black body with white chest and white feet. Some have a tuft of white on the tip of the tail and/or have a white belly. They look as if they are wearing a tuxedo, thus the name. :) As a kid I had a Ginger tux named George and he was incredibly handsome. His brother Pookie was black with "the moon and stars" on his belly. They came from a litter of kittens that included two Siamese-looking blue pointed kittens, a cream and white, a black and white and another ginger (that I remember). Mom was a moggie that looked like a dilute tortie-point Siamese, with blue eyes. She may have been purebed, but we didn't know for sure. She had two litters and both included Siamese-looking, black and orange kittens, and the second litter also had tabbies. We were sure that the kits had at least two fathers because all of them were so different from each other. There was a black and an orange Tom in the neighborhood that we knew of. I saw her mating with the black one. <<---- That's how I found out about sex at age 8 or 9....I had no clue what was going on and called my Mom at work to tell her that "I brought Miss Kitty home, and some cats were attacking her and I scared them off. She smells really bad and has a big hole in her bottom!" Unfortunately my Mom didn't tell me what was going on. It was a traumatic experience, LOL! -L. On May 8, 3:03 pm, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > > Calicos are normally female because two of the three color genes for > > it sit on the same spot on the X chromosomes--and normal male cats [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > colors, having only two chromosomes? The third gene would have to be someplace > else. No, I botched the explanation slightly. You're right, the white spotting gene sits somewhere else. > Torties have no white, but they are also almost all female, for the same > reason as calicos. So I think the white-fur gene is a separate issue. Torties can get the white spotting gene too; I had one. She was a sweetie. (Relevance of this to your actual point would be hard to find, and is probably non-existent.) You just reminded me of Kahlua, that's all. > I didn't know there were more ginger-and-white female cats than solid > ginger. But you do have a point that in order to have a solid ginger cat, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with 20% of solid-orange cats being female, but I haven't sat down to do > the math. I haven't done the math, either, and I don't know if that 20% figure is exactly correct; just that solid ginger females are lots less common than solid ginger males because they have to have both of a)no white spotting gene and b)the ginger color gene on both X's. But they do exist. Lis >> Torties have no white, but they are also almost all female, for the same >> reason as calicos. So I think the white-fur gene is a separate issue. > Torties can get the white spotting gene too; I had one. She was a > sweetie. (Relevance of this to your actual point would be hard to > find, and is probably non-existent.) You just reminded me of Kahlua, > that's all. I was wrong when I said torties have no white - see my other post where I amended that statement. Apparently I caused someone great confusion over whether her cat was a tortie or a calico. :) > I haven't done the math, either, and I don't know if that 20% figure > is exactly correct; just that solid ginger females are lots less > common than solid ginger males because they have to have both of a)no > white spotting gene and b)the ginger color gene on both X's. But they > do exist. And in fact, I have known 3 or 4 of them. Joyce > >> Torties have no white, but they are also almost all female, for the same > >> reason as calicos. So I think the white-fur gene is a separate issue. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Joyce No, no great confusion, I was just a little puzzled because (at least here, my part of Canada), Whiskey was always referred to as a tortie by any veterinarian she saw. I got her in early 1970 when she was fairly young & she lived till the spring of 1986. It was before I was married, before I had kids & she was my first cat. She had been badly abused & was spitting mean for the first few months. Then my second cat (kitten) Tommy literally fell into my lap - or rather he was put in my lab coat pocket at work. He was pure white with green eyes & fit into the palm of my hand. I took him home, stayed off work a week or so trying to figure out if Whiskey might accept him. It was touch & go. Then came the day I had to return to work, I put Tommy in the kitchen with up barriers to the ceiling on both doors to try & keep them separated till I got home. Came home hours later & was shocked to find all the barriers pulled away, Whiskey on the living room sofa with tiny Tommy tucked under her. And that was it - she treated him as her baby & they were inseparable from then on. End of the random musings ----- M. > No, no great confusion OK, that's good! :) > Then my second cat (kitten) Tommy literally fell into my > lap - or rather he was put in my lab coat pocket at work. He was pure white [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > inseparable from then on. > End of the random musings ----- That's adorable! Joyce > No, no great confusion, I was just a little puzzled because (at > least here, my part of Canada), Whiskey was always referred to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > treated him as her baby & they were inseparable from then on. > End of the random musings ----- A true cat slave taking off a week when a new bitty comes home! Very cute story. SignatureCheryl > Slightly roundabout explanation: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > is still genetically and chromosomally normal, and perfectly fertile. > Or at least, not sterile because of that.:) GREAT explanation! Thanks for taking the time to post it. > > Slightly roundabout explanation: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thanks, but note Joyce's correction of my sloppiness: the white spotting gene is somewhere else, not on the X chromosomes. Lis > > > > Hi, I have two young cats, one of which is a ginger and white female! > > > > I have heard that ginger females are infertile and have tried searching [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thank you to both you( Lis) and Rhonda for that explanation, I appreciate that. I was interested because we have a ginger boy(neutered!), & I have never ever seen a ginger female before, which is why I wondered if you could get them. Thanks again, S;o) Now im getting a little confused as to what colour i should class my cats as!! If anyone would be kind enough to take a look at the links below, which are photos of my two cats, Peachy and Purdy and let me know what they are? If links dont work try looking at my photo gallery! http://www.ringo.com/photos/photo.html?photoId=184140693 http://www.ringo.com/photos/album/photo.html?photoId=184140902&albumId=41229409 > Now im getting a little confused as to what colour i should class my cats as!! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Message posted via CatKB.comhttp://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200705/1 WOW, LOL Another Ringo..Fantastic, you must meet our Ringo, he is a very nice handsome fellow... Now, you answer is going to vary on this one. I suggest that you take the advice of your fellow Americans, because we call cats different names in the UK. To me, Does Purdy have black spots on her as well as orange and white? If so we would class her as a tortie, having said that, if Peachy is black & orange, we would also class that as a Tortie too. However, if Purdy is Orange and white, from what I can glean, most calico's(orange & white) are male, but all still need spaying or neutering where appropriate asap. I hope others help out here. We may speak the same language, but we have different words to describe things. Good Luck, Sheelagh PS: Thanks for sharing those photos To me, Does Purdy have black spots on her as well as >orange and white? If so we would class her as a tortie, having said >that, if Peachy is black & orange, we would also class that as a >Tortie too. >However, if Purdy is Orange and white, from what I can glean, most >calico's(orange & white) are male, Purdy is just orange and white (Female) So am I right in saying that she is CALICO?! Peachy is Blue/Grey with very pale orange/peach colour. So is she TORTIE?! > To me, Does Purdy have black spots on her as well as > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Message posted via CatKB.comhttp://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200705/1 Joyce would know far better than me, but I would say that she is not a Tortie if that is the case. Purdy sounds like a cross between a tabby & a tortie if she has grey on her too.( I couldn't see very well, time for a trip to spec savers I believe, LOL;o) As far as Peachy is concerned, what I am hearing from the others is that most male Calico's are infertile, but I didn't see any explanation as to whether a female calico is even rare, never mind infertile. I am "assuming that she is fertile & must be spayed before she calls @ around 5--6 months old. S;o) >> Purdy is just orange and white (Female) So am I right in saying that she is >> CALICO?! >> Peachy is Blue/Grey with very pale orange/peach colour. So is she TORTIE?! > Joyce would know far better than me, but I would say that she is not a > Tortie if that is the case. Blue/grey with peach is a dilute tortie. The grey fur is the dilute form of black, and the pale peach is dilute orange. I used to call those cats "piebald", I don't know why. :) BTW, I don't know if you are referring to me when you say "Joyce" above (I haven't read this newsgroup much, so maybe there's another Joyce here), but I'm a non-scientist who happens to have an avocational interest in genetics and a love of cats. Therefore, cat-color genetics is an irresistible subject to me. :) I like to think I know what I'm talking about, but you might want to take what I say with at least some salt. :) > Purdy sounds like a cross between a tabby > & a tortie if she has grey on her too.( I couldn't see very well, time > for a trip to spec savers I believe, LOL;o) I think she said that Purdy was only orange and white, so, not a calico. Joyce On 9 May, 21:22, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > >> Purdy is just orange and white (Female) So am I right in saying that she is > >> CALICO?! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Joyce Actually, I was/am referring to you. I know hardly anything to do with the genetic make up of a tortie other than the basics as I know them. a Tortie is almost always tend to be female. Now if you were to ask me about colour point's it would be another matter altogether, because I am used to dealing with them, but not Torties unfortunately..... > Blue/grey with peach is a dilute tortie. The grey fur is the dilute form of > black, and the pale peach is dilute orange. I used to call those cats > "piebald", I don't know why. :) I think that it is a rather good description..... > I think she said that Purdy was only orange and white, so, not a calico. Now, I am, getting confused here, LOL;o) I thought that someone earlier mentioned that a ginger and white cat are mostly male & that they are known for being sterile. where abouts did I lose the plot? Was it the colour(ie: that orange and white cats are called Calico's in the USA... or was it the bit about female ginger & whites being called a different name, not calico's, but torties? boy I am confused now;o( S;o) > On 9 May, 21:22, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - "Calico" is three colors: orange, white, and black, in patches. Calicos are nearly always female; on the rare occasions they're male, they have chromosomal abnormalities, and are sterile. "Torties" are either orange and black, or, like calicos, orange, black, and white, but intermixed with each other rather than in patches. Again, if they have all three colors, they're nearly always female, for the same reason as calicos. Solid orange cats, unless I'm completely confused, are what you're calling "ginger." They are much more likely to be male than female, simply because the females have two X chromosomes and need to have orange on both X's in order to be solid orange. But they CAN be female, there are solid orange female cats--just fewer than male, and orange cats, whether male or female, are not sterile. Or at least, not sterile because of their color.:) Hoping this works as clarifcation, rather than further confusion... Lis > > On 9 May, 21:22, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > - Show quoted text - That was perfectly clear. Thank you very much for clearing that one up Lis. It helped a lot. Calico is just a new name to us, because we don't use that name. all multi coloureds are tortoise shells here... But male ginger (orange cats) are ginger Toms. I have never yet met a female ginger one, but hope that i do someday... S;o) > "Torties" are either orange and black, or, like calicos, orange, > black, and white, but intermixed with each other rather than in > patches. Again, if they have all three colors, they're nearly always > female, for the same reason as calicos. One last nitpick: if a cat is orange and black only, no white, they still must be female (with the exception of rare XXY males), right? I'm saying this because the above sounds a bit like you're saying that 3-color cats are always female, but that orange & black, no-white torties could be males. In my understanding (which as I've said before is an amateur one) it's the combination of orange and black that implies two X chromosomes. White may or may not be present, but that has no bearing on the sex. This reminds me of something amusing. You know that song "Stray Cat Strut", about the tough-guy cat about town, who eats out of a garbage can, and croons all night to the lady-cats? The very first line of that song goes, "Black and orange stray cat, sittin' on a fence". You do the math, LOL. http://www.lyricsdomain.com/19/stray_cats/stray_cat_strut.html Joyce On May 10, 6:45 pm, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > > "Torties" are either orange and black, or, like calicos, orange, > > black, and white, but intermixed with each other rather than in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One last nitpick: if a cat is orange and black only, no white, they > still must be female (with the exception of rare XXY males), right? Yes, because it's the white spotting gene that sits elsewhere; the black and the orange sit in the same spot on the X chromosome. > I'm saying this because the above sounds a bit like you're saying > that 3-color cats are always female, but that orange & black, no-white > torties could be males. In my understanding (which as I've said before > is an amateur one) it's the combination of orange and black that implies > two X chromosomes. White may or may not be present, but that has no > bearing on the sex. You're right, and I'm not sure why I said it that way. Can I plead Usenet Fever? No? Drat! > This reminds me of something amusing. You know that song "Stray Cat > Strut", about the tough-guy cat about town, who eats out of a garbage [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Joyce I read an unintentionally funny talking-cats book some years ago, which featured _two_ _generations_ of male calico cats. Both of them fertile, of course. But there's nothing to prevent a black-and-orange male from being the Tough Cat About Town. HE doesn't know he's sterile, after all.:) Lis > But there's nothing to prevent a black-and-orange male from being the > Tough Cat About Town. HE doesn't know he's sterile, after all.:) That's interesting - I wonder if an XXY sterile tom would still exhibit sexual behavior? Would he still act like a tom, spraying, fighting, mating, etc, but just fire blanks? Or would the extra X (and, I assume, the hormones generated from it) cause him to behave like a neutered male? Joyce On May 11, 1:30 pm, jXwXeXrXmXoX...@sonic.net wrote: > > But there's nothing to prevent a black-and-orange male from being the > > Tough Cat About Town. HE doesn't know he's sterile, after all.:) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Joyce There's some evidence (I don't know that it rises to the level of proof) that human XXY males are more aggressive, not less. Doubling the X, with the Y still present, might not play out in a linear way. But I don't know of anyone having studied XXY cats in that kind of detail. Lis > There's some evidence (I don't know that it rises to the level of > proof) that human XXY males are more aggressive, not less. Doubling > the X, with the Y still present, might not play out in a linear way. Could you be thinking of human XYY's? Men with the XYY mutation have been found to be far more aggressive than average. I remember learning that in biology class back in high school. Think about all that extra testosterone they must get from having an extra Y chromosome! I don't know much about XXY's, human or feline. But the fact that most of the XXY cats are sterile makes me think that they're probably getting more female hormones, which might interfere with the production of sperm, among other things. Joyce On Wed 09 May 2007 04:22:37p, wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav <news:46422d8d$0$14114$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>: > Blue/grey with peach is a dilute tortie. The grey fur is the > dilute form of black, and the pale peach is dilute orange. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > :) I like to think I know what I'm talking about, but you might > want to take what I say with at least some salt. :) I think you described the dilute effect very well. As for torties, I've seen some with the most unusually symetrical faces. Almost as if a line was drawn straight down their face, down their nose and chin and one side was mottled mostly black with orange blended in, and the other side mostly orange with black blended in. I have a picture of a foster from years ago on my external drive that isn't hooked up right now. I will have to post it some time. Beautiful girl she is! SignatureCheryl |
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