Agreed!  That was my original point.

The explanation was an analogy for the benefit of others.

Yes.  But, surely a "smart" person such as yourself is aware of the recent
research showing that cats can benefit from a diet such as the Hill's m/d.  You
are aware of their clinical research, no?

news@stevethepsycho.co.uk (Steve G) wrote in message

I´ve been thinking about this. Ketosis is the liver breaking down fat
into ketone bodies and these ketone bodies are then used by most of
the cells of the body as fuel instead of glucose. A cat´s natural diet
is rich in fats and protein so it would seem logic that their natural
state is ketotic. What I do not know and would very much like to know
is if their liver breaks down the fat or if their body cells can do it
on their own. It would still be ketosis but the blood wouldn´t be as
full of ketone bodies.

gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) wrote in message

Gaubster, you really tire me with your obsessive salesman statements.
You are brainwashed by Hill´s to repeat the same crap over and over
again without any understanding whatsoever of the biochemistry or the
literature behind it or even what actually happens in nature.

Did you know for instance that cats eat whole prey, bones included? Do
you have any idea of how much ash whole prey has on a dry matter
basis? Probably not, you probably don´t have the slightest clue. You
probably never gave it any thought.

First, a domestic mouse has more than 23% ash on a dry matter basis. A
rat has more than 32% ash on a dry matter basis. A bird has more than
20% ash on a dry matter basis.

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Second, it´s not the amount of ash but what that ash is. Phosphate
salts have low solubility so very little of it actually make it to the
bloodstream. Most of it goes out on the feces. When you get a
commercial diet low in phosphate and high in soluble salts such as
chlorides and sulfates, much more minerals enter the bloodstream. This
actually holds against your beloved employer.

Third, there´s absolutely nowhere in literature concerning cats that
phosphate is detrimental to the kidneys. There are opinions, but in
science opinions do not count until they are proven through
experimentation. If you find a study on CATS showing that phosphate
causes kidney failure, please let us know.

Fourth, there´s something that you never heard of called saturation
point. A salt will only precipitate when the saturation point of that
salt in the given solution is reached. When you feed a cat a canned
diet, the amount of water the cat is forced to ingest will keep their
blood and urine diluted enough to avoid precipitation of any salt. As
long as there is no precipitation, there is no mineralization of the
kidneys. And as long as there is no mineralization, there is no kidney
damage.

Fifth, cats in nature do not eat differently according to their age. A
one year old cat will eat exactly the same thing that a 10 or 15 year
old. I´ve seen a few studies of wild cats that were screened for
diseases. Guess what? Many of them were above 10 years old and NONE of
them had kidney failure, despite their diet with a HUGE amount of ash.

You know what´s worse? When manufacturers do not take into account the
solubility of salts when preparing a commercial food and produce a
food low in phosphate, the manufacturer may actually be facilitating a
mineral overdose somewhere down the road.

Have you noticed how frequent hyperthyroidism is? Did you know that
there are many studies showing that excess manganese may lead to
hyperthyroidism?

There has never been a case of manganese deficiency in cats. Now, how
did the manufacturers of commercial food establish the minimum daily
requirement of manganese if a deficiency has never been shown?

I believe ALL commercial foods have excess manganese since the minimum
daily requirement of manganese given by the AAFCO is too high. When
you put all that manganese in a commercial food and remove phosphorus,
you are actually forcing more manganese into the blood. Hill´s diets
do that wonderfully. I would bet that a good percentage of cats that
developed hyperthyroidism were fed Hill´s for a long time. I see this
often in this newsgroup.

Instead of repeating like a parrot what your employer tells you, why
don´t you start thinking and try to improve their diet? Why don´t you
get this e-mail of mine and send it to your research center? Your
researchers need to learn a little chemistry.

Nonononononono... I forgot the Atkin´s allows a bit of carbs. When I
do it myself, I don´t eat any carbs at all so I meant that: zero
carbs.

It would never work unless most of those carbs are undigestible, e.g.,
cellulose. I haven´t looked at the formula.

I´m not sure I got this. I wrote that it is a mechanism for weight
loss. Glucagon signals lipolysis.

Liver contains only 3,5g of carbs in 100g. That´s negligible. Milk
here also contains only 3g of carbs per 100g, also negligible. He also
eats cheese (he loves mozzarella) and eggs. Mozzarella here does not
contain carbs.

I think you got the wrong link. That´s the dry Felidae.

mhd,
  The food works fine - if the pet owner follows directions. The
problem is that most don't follow feeding direction precisely. 3/8ths
of a cup per day dry and 1 can per day canned demands the owner pay
attention to the amount fed. My concern in our rush to embrace a
totally unproven carbophobic theory, is that most of the foods on the
market that are low in carbs are also very high in calcium and
phosphorus. There is no disease that has been _proven_ in peer
reviewed published clinical studies that are the direct result of
excess carbs in the diet. There are mountains of data on excessive
phosphorus directly causing fast death in kidney failure cats and
dogs. While we overeact to a carbophobic hypothesis as yet unproven,
we are completely ignoring real disease that is thoroughly and
unquestionably proven. Can a food be made with low phos and low carbs?
Yes. Prescription Diet Feline m/d contains 0.69% (can) and 0.76% (dry)
DMB. Unfortunately most manufacturers are driven by marekting concerns
rather than a view of risks and have no concern for excessive calcium
and phos. Accordingly they market products with levels that exceed
even the 1.44% levels used in several studies proven to speed death in
renal failure animals.