Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2007
Female Improper Urinating... Wits' End...
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Smartin - 16 Jan 2007 23:54 GMT We've had a tortie for most of her eight years of life. For most of that time we've had a Siamese male as well. Over the last three years we've taken in three strays, one of whom ran off last summer, leaving us with four of the little dears. Two males, two females, ranging from two to eight years old. The males are neutered, Frankie (the tortie) is spayed. All of our cats are kept indoors as the neighborhood is dangerous on account of traffic. We also have a Pekingese, who gets along famously with all the cats. In fact, we think he believes he is a cat himself.
Frankie however has a most obnoxious habit of urinating in inappropriate places. She prefers surfaces -- end tables, the top of the deep freezer, the piano bench, window sills, etc., and anything that seems to be "someone else's" on the floor. By the latter I mean things like dirty laundry, a toy one of the other cats like (we can't have catnip in the house in any form), a Christmas tree ornament that fell off, a piece of paper, inside shoes, and more recently, on the kitchen counter.
Needless to say this is getting old, and we are at a loss of what to do with her. This has been going on for years now. At times (such as last summer when one of our refugees ran away) her habit subsides, but invariably it ramps up again. It is now a daily occurrence, if not more than that.
Aside from the Siamese, who is effectively her "brother", we believe she is jealous of the others. I know I'm anthropomorphizing, but the apparent explanation of her actions as retaliation are numerous. If one of the young cats plays with a milk ring, the next morning it will be in a puddle of piss. If one of the cats has a chase with her, we will find a mess somewhere soon after.
I have read several websites that discuss the matter; we have ruled out physiological problems. Litter boxes are plentiful and well maintained. For cleansers we have tried enzyme cleaners etc., and although they do help remove the odor they only temporarily stop her from reusing the same spot on the floor, table, piano, freezer, etc. Although each of the other cats has had a moment or two of inappropriate urination, we have caught Frankie at this numerous times.
We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions?
 Signature Smartin
Lynne - 17 Jan 2007 00:45 GMT > We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? I have always heard that there is a high rate of schizophrenia among torties (& calicos). I'm not sure if this is true, but I've certainly met enough torties who were insane that I tend to believe it.
I'm not a proponent of throwing drugs at problems, but if there is a real need, it may be worth looking into. I wonder if there are any psychotropic drugs that would help with the problem. Phil?
 Signature Lynne
Smartin - 17 Jan 2007 01:29 GMT >> We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? > > I have always heard that there is a high rate of schizophrenia among > torties (& calicos). I'm not sure if this is true, but I've certainly met > enough torties who were insane that I tend to believe it. Funny you should say that as we often remark on how she seems to be hallucinating. She is still playful at her age. When she's in a mood, her eyes become big as quarters before she pounces on objects present or otherwise. She's not vicious in any way, but is definitely the loner of the group, although she will curl up on the furniture with any of the aforementioned pets.
> I'm not a proponent of throwing drugs at problems, but if there is a real > need, it may be worth looking into. I wonder if there are any psychotropic > drugs that would help with the problem. Phil? I'm a little skittish of drugs, perhaps because I've only heard they don't work, and I'm afraid of the expense. I'm willing to entertain options though. We have kept her this long because we feel a responsibility, having owned her since she was only four weeks.
 Signature Smartin
Cheryl - 17 Jan 2007 02:15 GMT I apologize to the OP, but I don't have a suggestion to the problem with your cats elimination issues, but I wanted to respond to Lynne's post.
> I have always heard that there is a high rate of schizophrenia > among torties (& calicos). I'm not sure if this is true, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > are any psychotropic drugs that would help with the problem. > Phil? I don't write about this much because like you, I don't believe in throwing drugs at a behavior problem, but there are exceptions as you indicate. Shamrock is one of those. He is the one of mine who has severe allergy problems and has had skin lesions for the entire 5 years I've had him. When steroid shots stopped working, and allergy shots didn't really work at all (he'd been to a veterinary dermatologist who recommended allergy shots) and there's no way to elliminate the allergens in his environment (He was tested with the grid-thing: pollen of many types, mold spores, dust mites, cat dander, a few others) he's on Atopica which is working well, but not completely getting rid of the itch. He doesn't bite himself bloody anymore, and his fur is completely grown back, so a few itches isn't making him crazy now. However, during his first several years here, he was a mess. And I don't just mean physically. He has a screw loose. He used to attack my legs if I walked past him and he was in "his mood". I was actually afraid of him sometimes. He terrorized one of my other cats, then he past away, and he started terrorizing another of my cats, but he doesn't do that to the two others. Now he is being terrorized by one of my two year olds, and he reacts in such a strange way to being the chasee instead of the chaser. Anyway, he's on Clomipramide, or Clomacalm (usually a dog drug for separation anxiety). It's been very successful for him after finding the right dose. He isn't a drugged up sleepy kitty at all, but he hasn't attacked my legs in a couple of years now. I tried to wean him off thinking he didn't need it any more, but he reverted, and we had to start it up again, so it might be for life.
 Signature Cheryl
Lynne - 17 Jan 2007 13:48 GMT on Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:15:43 GMT, Cheryl <jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> Anyway, he's on Clomipramide, or > Clomacalm (usually a dog drug for separation anxiety). It's been [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > need it any more, but he reverted, and we had to start it up again, > so it might be for life. Then I think Shamrock is a case where drugs are needed. Being afraid of your pet or otherwise unable to live with him puts his life at risk. Once all of the other likely resolutions have been unsucessfully tried, then I think drugs are warranted. You have nothing to feel guilty about IMO. He now has a good quality of life and so do you!
 Signature Lynne
http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/
Phil P. - 17 Jan 2007 08:55 GMT > > We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > need, it may be worth looking into. I wonder if there are any psychotropic > drugs that would help with the problem. Phil? Buspar -generic Buspirone. About the only drug that I know of that has produced good results in cats with elimination problems. It doesn't produce the usual sedated/depressed side effects as other drugs used for this purpose.
I think the problem is stress- but anything can stress Torties and Calicos- they have the "demon gene".
No help here.
Lynne - 17 Jan 2007 13:50 GMT > anything can stress Torties and Calicos- > they have the "demon gene". Ha ha! That's a much nicer way to put it.
 Signature Lynne
http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/
maralisil - 17 Jan 2007 14:08 GMT Are you able to give the problem cat a room/space of her own away from the other cats? Some kitties just aren't "team players". They don't care to socialize with others. I know a kitty at the shelter I visit who makes a point of peeing on EVERY new cat bed and pillow in the room. You should see the look on the other cats' faces when they want to check out the "cozy" new bed! Poor Kitty!
I'm on the "chemistry for better living" crew, as it's better than abandonment or euthanasia. Heck, a roomy cage would work it a single room isn't available. Place it near a window.
Good luck to you all!
-L. - 21 Jan 2007 00:07 GMT > Buspar -generic Buspirone. About the only drug that I know of that has > produced good results in cats with elimination problems. We used Elavil with great success.
-L.
Edna Pearl - 17 Jan 2007 01:11 GMT All I can tell you is that my tortoiseshell does the same thing. She's the odd one out of my three cats -- the other two are littermates. She's a sweetheart, but she pees on laundry, as you say yours does, and doormats, and the back door, and it does appear to be a territorial/ownership behavior. So we don't have any doormats and we lock up the laundry. While we were out of town for a couple of weeks over the holidays, she started peeing on the kitchen mat, so that's been washed and put away, too. This particular cat is a very odd cat in many respects. But it does seem to be predictable that the more stressed or bored she is, the more she marks.
Another of my cats, a neutered black male, used to mark when he was a baby, but I somehow managed to train him to stop, or he stopped on his own, years ago. (He recently developed OCD, though. "Bald belly syndrome." Licks the hair off his tummy.)
I used to have a tortie who peed in houseplants -- that was the *worst*.
It's always something.
ep
> We've had a tortie for most of her eight years of life. For most of that > time we've had a Siamese male as well. Over the last three years we've [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? Smartin - 17 Jan 2007 01:33 GMT Aaah, houseplants. I forgot to mention they have been a frequent target of hers as well. And should a plant get upset onto the floor, we could count on the dirt becoming soiled practically instantaneously.
She (thankfully) doesn't hit the rugs, at least not since we tore out the living room carpet years ago. But any stray object on the floor invariably becomes hers.
Thanks to everyone who replied.
> All I can tell you is that my tortoiseshell does the same thing. She's the > odd one out of my three cats -- the other two are littermates. She's a [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> >> We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions?
 Signature Smartin
Gail - 17 Jan 2007 01:49 GMT Has she seen a vet specifically for the urination problem and have physical problems been ruled out by the vet? If so, I would try having her placed on an anti-anxiety medication or an anti-depressant medication. There is such a condition as interstitial cystitis that can be helped by those medications (and they may also help with anxiety in the cat). Talk with your vet about this. Gail
> Aaah, houseplants. I forgot to mention they have been a frequent target of > hers as well. And should a plant get upset onto the floor, we could count [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >>> >>> We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? Bryan S. - 17 Jan 2007 14:26 GMT > > Frankie however has a most obnoxious habit of urinating in inappropriate > > places. She prefers surfaces -- end tables, the top of the deep freezer, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > house in any form), a Christmas tree ornament that fell off, a piece of > > paper, inside shoes, and more recently, on the kitchen counter. Trouble's done this in the past, but *only* when there have been other cats in the area. Everything I could find to read on the subject suggested that she was simply distressed. My wife did even more research on the problem and came across Feliway.
You can read about it here: http://www.feliway.co.uk/ (there's a US site, as well, I'm certain)
Trouble has not peed anywhere but in her pan since the Feliways went active, not even one time in well over a year. Also, she just seems happier in general and is very affectionate (not that she wasn't before, really). The stuff works. I recommend it with absurdly high marks.
 Signature Bryan, Stacy, Alyssandra & James...
...under the watchful eyes of Her Majesty, Trouble (grey American Shorthair)
Spot - 17 Jan 2007 01:49 GMT Have you tried adding additional litter boxes and has she been to the vets for a check up?
Celeste
> We've had a tortie for most of her eight years of life. For most of that > time we've had a Siamese male as well. Over the last three years we've [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? furmanthecat - 17 Jan 2007 02:55 GMT Smartin, Have you tried Feliway spray? If not I would definitely try it. Without getting too technical, it is a synthetic feline phermone spray that calms down cats with aggression or territorial problems. It seriously saved my cats life. She was a feral that we caught and socialized, and she is completely tame now, except for sometimes when she is stressed out territorial issues arise. She would urinate in places she shouldn't, like the sofa or on place mats or the bed once. With a combination of retraining and using Feliway religiously she is now only using the litter box. I would also look up retraining online. You basically put them in a small enclosed space like a dog cage with just enough room for a litter box, bed and food and water dishes. They have no choice but to go in the litter box, because otherwise they will go in their bed. You have to take them out to get excersize each day and spend lots of time keeping them company. I know it seems cruel to keep them in a cage for a few days, but if the only other choice is getting rid of them, I think it is worth it. There is a great book written by a cat behaviorist named Pam Johnson-Bennett. The book is called How to Raise a Well Adjusted Cat, and it has tons of great info on how to deal with territorial issues, I run to get that book any time I have a problem with my cats and it always helps. The Feliway is sold through amazon.com, and also at any pet supply store. It is a little pricey but I swear it works miracles. Be sure to follow the directions that come with it exactly, because you have to use it in a specific way. There is another product which is a litter called Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract. I buy it at Petsmart, and I have also spoken to other people whos cats were innapropriately urinating who used it and it does work. Those things all combined worked for my cat, and I was having a nervous breakdown with her. I was heartbroken because I thought I wasn't going to be able to keep her. I hope you try them!!! Also, you might want to consider that to save this kitties life, you may want to stop bringing in other cats because she will probably never be okay with her territory being invaded, and as long as you bring in others she will continue to be a pee pee head:-) This is what I had to do. Good Luck!
> We've had a tortie for most of her eight years of life. For most of that > time we've had a Siamese male as well. Over the last three years we've [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > -- > Smartin Smartin - 18 Jan 2007 02:27 GMT My sincerest thanks to everyone who responded. After reading your suggestions, it seems redoubling our efforts to find a cure, such as it may be, is worthwhile.
You folks are tops!
 Signature Smartin
Smartin - 20 Jan 2007 01:49 GMT Just a couple hours ago, she turned about in a wooden chair (which happens to have a gift bag on it), hiked her rear up and marked.
Right in front of me she did this.
We have just purchased four months' supply of Feliway diffuser, plus spot spray online. Will arrive soon God willing.
Side Q: anyone heard of Feliway being restricted in the US (Michigan)? A local pet supply told us the Dept of Ag. removed their stock because it is "not approved." I can find nothing of this claim on the net. FWIW, other stores have it on the shelf, though the first store claims "they will probably not restock after those are sold". Weird. Much cheaper online anyway.
 Signature Smartin
cybercat - 20 Jan 2007 01:53 GMT > Just a couple hours ago, she turned about in a wooden chair (which happens > to have a gift bag on it), hiked her rear up and marked. > > Right in front of me she did this. What was in the gift bag?
Smartin - 20 Jan 2007 17:05 GMT >> Just a couple hours ago, she turned about in a wooden chair (which happens >> to have a gift bag on it), hiked her rear up and marked. >> >> Right in front of me she did this. > > What was in the gift bag? Half a dozen used novels.
 Signature Smartin
-L. - 21 Jan 2007 00:05 GMT > We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? Elavil (ask your vet) and Precious Cat brand Cat Attract cat litter by Dr. Elsey (Google it). Also replace the litter boxes if they are over a year old - plastic absorbs odors.
-L.
Smartin - 27 Jan 2007 01:50 GMT >> We are running out of patience with this. Does anyone have suggestions? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -L. L, Thanks for that... had not thought of it. It certainly does make sense though.
In other news, Feliway arrived today. Our hope score is up.
Cheers to all,
 Signature Smartin
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