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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2006On Ferals
http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf Interesting, and there is definitely a need for this information. For example, the shelter staff described my Gracie as "feral" when they found her pregnant, but she is so gentle she not only seeks affection but will not put her claws out when you hold her against her will. Though she was at the shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could have socialized her in that time. > > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could > have socialized her in that time. Many if not most people- including the people who should know better- can't differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot of adoptable cats are killed because of this. "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote:. > Many if not most people- including the people who should know better- > can't > differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot > of adoptable cats are killed because of this. That's so sad. >> > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > differentiate a frightened lost cat/stray from an actual feral cat. A lot > of adoptable cats are killed because of this. What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their lives but have had dealings with humans. We picked up 4 brothers (approx. 9 mo old)recently who were born behind a restaurant. I don't know that anyone could pet them while they were outside but they were feeding them... well lol. One of the brothers came around rather quickly and is available for adoption already. One looks like he's going to have to be put back because he's not coming around at all and the jury is out on the other two. I'll get an update this weekend. They haven't been aggressive but aren't getting past the flat ears, cowering, scared cat point. The foster said she was going to try separating them and see if there is any progress. If not they can get returned where they came from as they do have a feeder in addition to the tidbits the restaurant people put out for them. I just had to have a discussion with them over feeding stuff with onions though. http://www.savethecatsinc.com/animals/detail?AnimalID=86110 > What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their > lives but have had dealings with humans. Hi Wendy, How about calling them homeless? Annie > > What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their > > lives but have had dealings with humans. > > Hi Wendy, > How about calling them homeless? > Annie If they're true ferals they aren't homeless. Phil > If they're true ferals they aren't homeless. > Phil Hi Phil, Yes, I understand what you mean. Technically, true ferals have a home and family. The family is the colony and the home is where they live. But, I'm thinking that they are still domesticated-type cats that have reverted to a wild state or were born into this situation. They got this way because somewhere up the line, due to human irresponsibility, individual cats who had a home or should have had a home became essentially homeless. As you know, many of what people call ferals are really cats who somehow have been separated from their human homes and are frightened and confused and appear wild. The question, as I understand it, is what do you call cats who are what might be called "in the wild" although they may be in urban areas, and have some sort of relation with people. I think it depends on what kind of relation we're talking about. It seems to me that cats in this situation may or may not be feral. The ones who are not feral most likely would be homeless. I know that some caretakers of colonies refer to the latter as hard strays. Perhaps that is the answer to the question. Regards, Annie Hi Annie, > The question, as I understand it, is what do you call cats who are what > might be called "in the wild" although they may be in urban areas, and have > some sort of relation with people. Semi-feral or hard stray. > I think it depends on what kind of relation we're talking about. It seems to > me that cats in this situation may or may not be feral. The ones who are > not feral most likely would be homeless. > > I know that some caretakers of colonies refer to the latter as hard strays. > Perhaps that is the answer to the question. I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most people than hard stray. Phil ...> I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most people > than hard stray. > Phil I think so, too. In these cases, we are attempting to describe the cats' state of socialization to human company. And, I think some sort of distinction is important because it can be the difference between life and death for the cats who find themselves under the jurisdiction of animal control officials. However, I believe there is a case for using the word "homeless" to describe their circumstance as opposed to describing their state of being. The cats we are talking about, even if they are feral and living by their own resources, are domesticated as opposed to cats such as lions, tigers, cougars, etc. I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated cats, but rather the result of necessity and brought about by human neglect. Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but in general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time. Those living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other care) from human caretakers. The environment in which they live will not fully support them because they may be wild, but they are not really "in the wild." It is my belief that although some individuals probably are beyond the point of being able to accept integration into a human household, in general, cats belong under human care and in a human household. This is why I prefer to think of these cats as homeless. I think it is also a more compelling word and elicits more sympathy for these animals than feral. (Sort of a marketing ploy.) The human equivalent might be a person who lives in a car, a cardboard box in an alley, or under a bridge. The car or the box or the bridge may be the person's home, but we still consider that person homeless Of course, I realize that although a loving home for every cat may be a desirable goal, it certainly is not the case today, and in spite of our efforts, probably will not ever be fully achieved. We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time. Annie on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:48:03 GMT, "Annie Wxill" <Annie_Wxill@hotmail.com> wrote: > Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but > in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not fully support them because they may be wild, but they are not > really "in the wild." both of my current cats were found living in a feral colony in the woods, away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony (colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions, but my friends snag the kittens whenever they can.  SignatureLynne ...> both of my current cats were found living in a feral colony in the woods, > away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony > (colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions, but my friends > snag the kittens whenever they can. I don't consider myself an expert on feral cat colonies. I'm sure that there are exceptions, which is why I said I believe the statement to be generally true that most colonies are not so much in the wild as the ones you mention. Also, cats can roam over quite a distance. Maybe the cats you describe have some interaction with humans after all. Apparently the area is accessible to humans. How did your friends discover the colonies? By snagging the kittens whenever they can, your friends are supporting the colony by reducing the eventual number of cats competing for food in that area. Are your friends also providing food at any time, or TNR as well? Are they sure nobody else has discovered the cats and may be providing some food or care? Actually, the point I was trying to make is that too many cats are called feral just because they are, or appear to be, on their own. Some cats called feral for this reason are not really feral. Some of their behavior resembles that of a feral, but the cause is stress, fear, confusion, and lack of or loss of trust. In general, these cats may be in rural or urban areas and are not living in areas remote enough to be called wild. I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people. Even a gentle, pampered housecat can display "wild-like" behavior, given the right circumstances. If this cat falls into the hands of someone who cannot distinguish between a true feral and this cat and gets the feral label, that cat may be deemed unadoptable and the sentence is death. So, is there a better term for these cats who are not true ferals? I propose "homeless," even though, as Phil pointed out, these cats, especially those in colonies have a place that they consider home. My rationale is below. First, "homeless" is better P.R. It is not as scary as "feral" and would be more accurate for those cats who are lost or abandoned pets. I believe that even the cats out in the woods in your area are domestic cats (as opposed to truly wild cats including lions, tigers, cougars, etc.) and due to human neglect are in an environment that is not natural to them. They turn feral in behavior to adapt, but genetically, they are domestic cats. Their natural environment is at home with and under the loving care of humans. I believe this applies whether the cat is living indoor, outdoor or some combination. Therefore, cats not living in this environment could accurately be called homeless, even if they are in a colony. (Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the cats in the woods in your area are better off than some cats with some people, but that's a whole other discussion.) I hope I am making some sense and not just confusing you. Please give those two rescues of yours a skritch from me. They are lucky to be safe and spoiled as the should be. Annie on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:49:46 GMT, "Annie Wxill" <Annie_Wxill@hotmail.com> wrote: > Also, cats can roam over quite a distance. Maybe the cats you > describe have some interaction with humans after all. > Apparently the area is accessible to humans. How did your friends > discover the colonies? They were bushwhacking (off trail hiking) in the national forest. Definitely no humans living in the area or near the area. > Are your friends also providing food at any time, or TNR as well? Nope. > I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people. I think most people don't know what it means, to be honest > First, "homeless" is better P.R. It is not as scary as "feral" and > would be more accurate for those cats who are lost or abandoned pets. Actually, I think "stray" covers what you are describing. > I believe that even the cats out in the woods in your area are > domestic cats (as opposed to truly wild cats including lions, tigers, > cougars, etc.) and due to human neglect are in an environment that is > not natural to them. They turn feral in behavior to adapt, but > genetically, they are domestic cats. I wonder if you understand what the term feral really means. One definition, and the one that applies here is "having reverted to the wild state, as from domestication" (from dictionary.com). I really don't think any distinction needs to be made about cats who are "homeless" other than stray or feral. Feral colonies have evolved from strays, no doubt. > (Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the cats in the woods in your > area are better off than some cats with some people, but that's a > whole other discussion.) I agree, especially when you think about collectors. *shudder* > Please give those two rescues of yours a skritch from me. They are > lucky to be safe and spoiled as the should be. My boys are neutered, well vetted, loved bunches, and spoiled rotten! And they totally deserve it. Scritches shall be administered. The little one is suckling on my lip right now so he's getting the butt massage currently. :) SignatureLynne http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/ > I believe that the label "feral" evokes fear in a lot of people. I can introduce you to at least one feral cat who fully deserves that fear. This animal was so aggressively violent when caught in the have-a-hart, it was intimidating just to put the cover over the trap. Never mind when I released her. When I first saw her, a gorgeous black ASH, I thought I had caught either a wildcat or some other snarling, roaring critter. I swear to God, she *roared* at me. It was utterly clear she really would do everything she could to kill me, given half a chance. The vet who anesthetized her for testing and spaying was a very brave man. The cat was healthy and young (but fully grown, weighing in at just under 14 pounds). She had no teats, so she wasn't a recent queen. She remained violently ornery throughout her recovery, only eating when left alone in her cage in the dark. In a confrontation with a coyote or two, my money would have been on this cat. I have never seen any "domestic" cat behave this way before or since. But I have no doubt that there are others like her. People are correct to be careful around these animals. They may be relatively small, but they can do a good deal of damage if provoked. SignatureChristmas, what other time of the year do you sit in front of a dead tree and eat candy out of your socks? ... ...> When I first saw her, a gorgeous black ASH, I thought I had caught either a wildcat or some other snarling, roaring critter. I swear to God, she *roared* at me. It was utterly clear she really would do everything she could to kill me, given half a chance. > The vet who anesthetized her for testing and spaying was a very brave Hi Bearclaw, This sounds exactly like the cat that had a litter of kittens in my daughter's barn. My daughter was able to get the kittens before she trapped the mother cat. My daughter had not seen the mother cat or the kittens before her dog discovered the kittens in the grass just outside the barn. The kittens were about 6-7 weeks old and tamed up within a week. My daughter said that when she trapped the mother cat, the cat had such a look of evil in her eyes that it was eerie. My daughter had made arrangements to take the cat to the vet to be spayed and vaccinated prior to trapping her, The vet had been so impressed with how sweet the kittens turned out, and knowing that my daughter had limited income, that he offered to spay the mother cat for free. Well, let's just say that afterwards the vet was glad to give this cat back to my daughter, and my daughter released the cat to go back to the barn, I think any cat can inflict serious damage, but some are more motivated to do so than others. Annie > This animal was so aggressively violent when caught in the have-a-hart, > it was intimidating just to put the cover over the trap. Never mind when > I released her. Sounds like a normal feral cat. > on Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:48:03 GMT, "Annie Wxill" > <Annie_Wxill@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > away from human domiciles of any kind--so truly in the wild. The colony > (colonies) are apparently thriving under those conditions, Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a very small fraction are in managed colonies- I'd say they sure are thriving on their own! Phil. ... > Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a > very > small fraction are in managed colonies- I'd say they sure are thriving on > their own! > Phil. Hi Phil, The key wod, of course, is feral. I agree with your comment in another post that well-meaning people who do not know what they are doing should not trap cats in a colony and drop them off at a "shelter" in hopes that they will be adopted. (I put quotes around the word shelter because it is unlikely to provide shelter for and more likely to be a death sentence for such a cat.) (But, playing the devil's advocate) On the other hand, some people probably would take your statement above as an excuse to dump an unwanted housecat out in the woods. I know there are people who believe that any cat can manage quite well with its own devices. I'm sure the local coyotes are happy to prove them wrong. Regards, Annie > ... > > Considering there are about 100 million feral cats in the US and only a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the word shelter because it is unlikely to provide shelter for and more > likely to be a death sentence for such a cat.) If the "Good Samaritans" call AC to trap them- the cats never even make it to the shelter. They're killed in the back of the AC truck. If they really want to help the cats- don't "help" them. > (But, playing the devil's advocate) On the other hand, some people probably > would take your statement above as an excuse to dump an unwanted housecat > out in the woods. People sometimes dump their pet cats near our colonies because they know the colonies are provided with food and shelters and medical care- it makes them feel less guilty about dumping their cats. If we're lucky, we can trap them before the colony runs them off. We can usually tell they were dumped pets because after they're trapped and had some time to settle down they're friendly. But some are just as frantic as ferals. I know there are people who believe that any cat can > manage quite well with its own devices. I'm sure the local coyotes are > happy to prove them wrong. Cars are the greatest danger to pet cats because they aren't streetwise. Most pet cats don't live long enough to become streetwise. Phil > ...> I think semi-feral would be a more recognizable description to most > people [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In these cases, we are attempting to describe the cats' state of > socialization to human company. In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with little human interaction. Homeless would be be more appropriate for a lost or abandoned cat. > And, I think some sort of distinction is important because it can be the > difference between life and death for the cats who find themselves under the > jurisdiction of animal control officials. Absotively. Unfortunately, a frightened or unfriendly lost pet cat usually meets with same fate as a captured feral. > However, I believe there is a case for using the word "homeless" to describe > their circumstance as opposed to describing their state of being. The cats > we are talking about, even if they are feral and living by their own > resources, are domesticated as opposed to cats such as lions, tigers, > cougars, etc. Actually, if the cats were born and lived their entire lives in the wild with little human interaction, the circumstances and state of being are one in the same. They're feral. An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a squirrel or a lion or tiger. They aren't homeless. The only difference is size (and the amount of damage they can do to you). > I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated cats, Actually, it is. That's why we use the term "revert to feral" for former pet cats that live in the wild for a long time without human interaction. Cats are naturally born wild- not domesticated. That's why human interaction is crucial during the kitten's first 2 to 7 weeks- although some ferals can be tamed when they're much older; it depends on the individual cat's personality. Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to Felis Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's definition. The only difference is one is socialized to humans and the other isn't. A feral cat is more of a "natural" cat than a domesticated pet cat. But I love them both just the same! ;) There are several truly wild ferals in my colonies that rub against me at feeding time- some will even let me pet them- but only me. But make no mistake- these are ferals- wild cats- and not domesticated cats. but > rather the result of necessity and brought about by human neglect. I understand how you feel and agree to a point. What about the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of a lost domesticated pet cat? > Domesticated cats, feral or otherwise, will hunt and catch food, but in > general, depend on humans, too, to survive for any length of time. That's not entirely accurate. Ferals can live just as long, and in many cases, even longer than other wildlife on their own. There are about 100 million ferals in the US-- only a very small fraction live in managed colonies. Those > living on their own go through garbage, or get food (and other care) from > human caretakers. The environment in which they live will not fully support > them because they may be wild, but they are not really "in the wild." I can't agree with you on that. Most managed colonies have survived for *years* before they became managed. For instance, one of my colonies' territory overlaps undeveloped county property. This colony has survived there for over *15 years*- generation after generation. The public and county employees were prohibited from feeding them or providing shelters. The only reason we're allowed to TNR and manage the colony now is because the county has spent a fortune over the years going around in endless circles trapping and killing the cats with no progress. Make no mistake- a feral is fully capable of surviving with the deftness of the most wild of wild animals. > It is my belief that although some individuals probably are beyond the point > of being able to accept integration into a human household, in general, cats > belong under human care and in a human household. I doubt you'll find a stronger proponent for keeping cats indoors and/or in protected outdoor enclosures than me. But ferals in general belong "in the wild"- its their home. I know its hard to look at a feral as a wild animal- but that's what they are and I respect that. > This is why I prefer to think of these cats as homeless. I think it is also > a more compelling word and elicits more sympathy for these animals than > feral. (Sort of a marketing ploy.) That's true- but calling a feral, semi-feral or a hard stray a "homeless cat" can also lead to seriously false expectations from the the cat- not to mention a real danger for the adoptive. > The human equivalent might be a person who lives in a car, a cardboard box > in an alley, or under a bridge. The car or the box or the bridge may be the > person's home, but we still consider that person homeless That analogy doesn't apply to ferals because "the wild" *is* their home. > Of course, I realize that although a loving home for every cat may be a > desirable goal, it certainly is not the case today, and in spite of our > efforts, probably will not ever be fully achieved. I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and even in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, *very* big. > We can only do what we can, most often one cat at a time. I try to do the best thing for each particular cat with which I come in contact. Sometimes, the best thing doesn't seem like the right thing. Phil > I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and > even [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Phil And sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We brought in a pregnant 'stray' last spring. The woman who called us begged and begged that we help this girl because of the horrible conditions the cats were living in. So we brought her in to have her kittens. She was friendly until she delivered the babies and then turned into kujo-kitty. The foster mom had been keeping them in her downstairs bathroom and wasn't able to use it for weeks because of the cat. She settled down some but still is not a good candidate for adoption. Problem now is what to do with her. She can't go back to where she came from and she isn't happy inside. W > > I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors and > > even [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > W Relocating a feral is a major project that takes a few weeks. Its also traumatic for the cat. What was wrong with her former turf? Good luck-- you're gonna need it Phil >> And sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We brought > in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Phil I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one who spoke with the woman who brought this cat in but my understanding is the neighbors don't want them, there isn't a feeder and a lot of the cats there were dying from I don't know what. It's a high traffic area too. I'll have to see if I can get specifics. I think sometimes people garnish the truth to make the cat's circumstances sound more dire. She's been out of that location for 9 months now though. Would it be possible ... the right thing ... to return her to her former stomping grounds at this point and at this time of year? What would someone have to do to successfully relocate a cat? W > I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one who > spoke with the woman who brought this cat in but my understanding is the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ... to return her to her former stomping grounds at this point and at this > time of year? Definitely not after 9 months. She lost her place in the colony. You would have to treat her return like a relocation. If the area really is that bad, I would try to relocate her along with a least one other cat from her colony into another colony someplace else-- easier said than done. > What would someone have to do to successfully relocate a cat? You'd have to keep the cat in a large enclosure on her new turf for a few weeks until she settles in- otherwise she'll run away and try to find her way back to her original turf as soon as you release her. This is very dangerous- she'll be lost in unfamiliar territory and won't know the dangers of the area or the safe places to hide. Relocating another colony cat with her will make the process less traumatic. A farm is the best bet- There aren't many other places where you can set up an enclosure without problems. Relocating a feral is strictly a last resort. Btw, I figured out how to make a folding drop trap- some of our trappers have small cars. Its still 36" long x 16" high but only 8" wide folded: http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-folded.jpg http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg >> I'm not positive what was wrong with her former turf. I wasn't the one >> who [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg cool beans! What kind of 'netting' did you use? As for the farm/barn homes, they seem to be an urban legend around here at least. We've been looking for a suitable place to locate two cats we have for over 2 years now. They have been living in a volunteer's (attached) garage in the mean time. Most of the horse farms are overrun with cats and they are calling us to get rid of their overflow (nobody seems to spay or neuter their barn cats). We had someone else interested in a barn cat and it looked promising until he told us that his previous barn cat had been killed by his resident fox. :o( Not the place for a cat with an attitude but no 'street smarts'. Another question. What's the longest you can keep a cat away from it's original stomping ground and still be able to return it successfully? For instance is the time necessary to have a mom come in pregnant, have her kittens and get them weaned to long? W > > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-folded.jpg > > > > http://maxshouse.com/Feral/maxtrap-front-02.jpg > > > cool beans! What kind of 'netting' did you use? Safety netting- 256 lbs/strand tensile strength, 4 strands per thread. Each thread has over 1000 lbs bursting strength. The net was made to to my specifications but the rope border took up too much slack and made the net fit too tight. I'm having another net made a little larger to offset the rope border. If it works out I'll order a few dozen. > Another question. What's the longest you can keep a cat away from it's > original stomping ground and still be able to return it successfully? Its best to get the cat back to the colony as soon as possible- no more than a few days. For > instance is the time necessary to have a mom come in pregnant, have her > kittens and get them weaned to long? Yes- 3-4 weeks is too long. The best thing to do is abort the pregnancy before the queen reaches her third trimester. If she's already in her third trimester the kittens are viable so you can't abort- you would be actually killing the kittens. Let her have the kittens and nurse them for a few days, neuter her and after she recovers, release her. The kittens will receive all the maternal antibodies they're going to get within the first 18-24 hours. You'll have to bottle feed the kittens until they can eat solid food- 3-4 weeks. Handle the kits as much as possible after the first 2 weeks and try to keep them together until they're at least 12 weeks old. Phil >> I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated >> cats, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > domesticated. That's why human interaction is crucial during > the kitten's first 2 to 7 weeks- Someone needs to drill this into Barry's head about his 7 kittens. They need human interaction in order to be friendly cats, and it sounds like he isn't interested in being the socializer if he wants to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more. SignatureCheryl on Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:09:53 GMT, Cheryl <jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote: > Someone needs to drill this into Barry's head about his 7 kittens. > They need human interaction in order to be friendly cats, and it > sounds like he isn't interested in being the socializer if he wants > to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his > posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more. repeated for emphasis. Every last word. SignatureLynne http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/ > >> I'm saying that feral is not a natural state for domesticated > >> cats, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to just leave them be. That's the impression I got from reading his > posts until I couldn't deal with the raging any more. He's incapable of being educated and is just a waste of space, time, energy, oxygen, and DNA. . He's like a bad rash- the more you scratch it the worse it gets. If you ignore it and leave it alone it will go away. > I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors > and even in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, > *very* big. That's why my friends leave the adults alone in the colony they discovered. They pick off whatever kittens they can and find suckers like me to love them forever, but that's it. That colony (those colonies) aren't bothering anyone or anything where they are so there is no need to do anything. I'm sure they are a well integrated part of the food chain now, in both directions. They've been there at least 3 years (since I've had Rudy), but I suspect much, much longer. SignatureLynne http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/ >> I wouldn't say "every" cat. Most ferals would be miserable indoors >> and even in a protected outdoor enclosure-- unless it was big- very, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in both directions. They've been there at least 3 years (since I've had > Rudy), but I suspect much, much longer. Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about 'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them. W > Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about > 'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them. nope. It's not financially feasible for them. They live in the poorest county in Kentucky. When I said 'suckers' I was being tongue-in-cheek. All of us who have gotten kittens from them are thrilled with them. SignatureLynne http://picasaweb.google.com/what.the.hell.is.it/ >> Have they considered doing TNR? Then they wouldn't have to worry about >> 'picking' off the kittens and trying to find 'suckers' to adopt them. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When I said 'suckers' I was being tongue-in-cheek. All of us who have > gotten kittens from them are thrilled with them. Maybe they could see if there's a rescue group that could help them out some or look for vouchers online. Hey we're all suckers when it comes to cats. W > In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless > since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with > little human interaction. Homeless would be be more appropriate for a > lost or > abandoned cat. Thank you for an informative and educational response. I would defer to your assessment of Wendy's cats because you have so much experience in that area. For a lot of reasons, I wish there could be an easy way for a lay person to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a homeless cat that appears wild. I've noticed that some people seem to think in all or nothing terms, i.e., the cat is either feral or tame, while, in fact there is a range of behaviors that any individual cat may exhibit at any time depending on the circumstance. These behaviors may not accurately depict the state of the cat's socialization to humans. As you state later in your post, some of your ferals will rub against your legs and let you pet them, but they still are feral. It appears to me that some people think homeless and feral are the same thing. Wendy's question of what to call her cats, who are somewhere between feral and tame, but closer to feral, is important. If we had a word or words and better understanding for the middle ground, maybe fewer homeless cats would be labeled feral and not automatically sentenced to death. (Sigh) Then, as you mention later, there is also the problem of someone mistaking a feral cat as closer to tame, and because of that expectation, the person either being injured or disappointed in the relationship with that cat. One thing I have observed is that whenever there is a conflict between human and animal, the animal is ultimately on the losing side. >... An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and > never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a > squirrel or a lion or tiger. They aren't homeless. The only difference is > size (and the amount of damage they can do to you). I can see your point there. Any of these animals can be tamed to a degree, but still be wild with potential for damage to the human who crosses them. >... Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to Felis >Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's >definition. The only difference is one is socialized to humans and the >other isn't. A feral cat is more of a "natural" cat than a domesticated >pet cat. I did not realize that. Thank you for setting me straight. I have always been in awe of the relationship I have had with our various cats. Now I can appreciate it even more when I get that snuggle and purr. >What about the offspring of the offspring of the offspring of a lost >domesticated pet cat? I don't know about other countries, but I assume that the African Wildcat is not indigenous to the U.S. Cats that arrived here were domestic cats brought by humans. The very first to arrive probably were not the pampered housecats we see here today. They would have been expected to earn their keep. It's easy to see how descendants of those cats could move out and become feral and survive. I suspect that it is not so easy for today's pet cats to survive on their own. If that hypothetical lost domesticated pet cat lives long enough to be the founder of a feral colony, it would be because that pet was not spayed or neutered. That is why I say today's feral colonies are the result of human neglect. I'm sorry. Somehow, I seem to have lost the remainder of your post. Drat! Well, I guess this one is long enough, anyway. Annie > For a lot of reasons, I wish there could be an easy way for a lay person > to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Annie It would save both the rescuer and the cat a lot of grief it we could tell ahead of time whether a cat would socialize or not. I've seen 'ferals' tame and 'strays' go wild so it isn't easy to figure out what's best for the cats. We adopted out kittens over the summer who's mom was born outside a year and change ago. She had lived outside all her life and was quite skittish around people. A business owner had been feeding behind her store but that was all the human contact this girl had. One day she boldly walked in the open door of the store and took up residence. The only thing I can figure is she sensed that this was a cat friendly person as so many cat are able to do and came indoors to have a safe place to give birth. She's still living in the store. She's been tested, spayed and gotten her shots and plops herself into selected people's laps while still being untouchable to the majority. At this point she has chosen the inside life and doesn't venture outdoors even when the door is propped open for ventilation. Who's to figure cats. We try not to label the cats we offer for adoption. If the cat came from a colony we'll just tell people that the cat was 'found' in the colony. With the kittens there really isn't all that much difference between kittens born to the 'feral' mom and those born outside to 'strays'. Either can be challenging if you don't get them indoors early enough. W ... > We try not to label the cats we offer for adoption. If the cat came from a > colony we'll just tell people that the cat was 'found' in the colony. With > the kittens there really isn't all that much difference between kittens > born to the 'feral' mom and those born outside to 'strays'. Either can be > challenging if you don't get them indoors early enough. > W Hi Wendy, I think that is a good way to handle it, especially with kittens, Labels can create expectations that turn out to be wrong. Cats, as you say, have their own way of doing things and are not particularly predictable by our way of thinking. I will say that Rosie, who is purring on my lab now and trying to get my attention off the computer was born and lived the first 7 months of her life homeless and roaming the neighborhood. She was wild, but when I finally got a glimpse of her sweet face peering out at me from a bush in the twilight, she stole my heart. To make a long story short, I trapped her, and vetted her, and it took a couple of months before she felt comfortable enough to touch me and then let me touch her. She pretty much lived on a closet shelf for a year, but came down to eat and use the box and to get to know us, Little by little she came around. Even when she was scared at first, she never showed any sign of aggression or intent to hurt us. We didn't know what we were doing, but we followed her lead. It took a long time, and now she has no indication that she'd ever been anything but a pampered companion. It was worth every minute. Bless you for your rescue work. I wish you great success. Annie > > In Wendy's cats case, I think the cats are closer to feral than homeless > > since they were born and lived all their lives in the wild state with [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to differentiate between a feral and what we might agree to call a homeless > cat that appears wild. How about "frightened homeless"- which is probably the most accurate description. They're fairly easy to differentiate out of the trap. A feral will usually disappear as soon as she sees you. A frightened homeless/stray/lost cat will usually just back away- staying just out of reach. If you don't try to approach her, she might gradually come closer. In the trap is another story. > I've noticed that some people seem to think in all or nothing terms, i.e., > the cat is either feral or tame, while, in fact there is a range of > behaviors that any individual cat may exhibit at any time depending on the > circumstance. These behaviors may not accurately depict the state of the > cat's socialization to humans. Absotively. This is especially true for cats in shelters and adoption centers where all the qualities that make them great companions work against them. For instance, a very sweet and sensitive cat can become very defensive from all the strange noises and people in the store. Other than our shelter, only one out of the five stores in which we have adoption centers has a quiet office we can use *sometimes* for adoptions. > As you state later in your post, some of your ferals will rub against your > legs and let you pet them, but they still are feral. This is not really unusual. A lot of colony caretakers will tell you the same thing happens with some of their cats. Every once in awhile, you will come across a cat in a colony that's amenable to tamming- but these cats are few and far between and usually a recently displaced pet. > It appears to me that some people think homeless and feral are the same > thing. That's because some people just don't understand ferals are closer to wildlife- and not homeless pet cats. Wendy's question of what to call her cats, who are somewhere between > feral and tame, but closer to feral, is important. If we had a word or > words and better understanding for the middle ground, maybe fewer homeless > cats would be labeled feral and not automatically sentenced to death. Sadly, its the "good Samaritans" that hurt the ferals the most. They think they're helping the cats by trapping them and taking them to a shelter or calling AC. If they're not TNR'ing the best thing they can do for the cats is leave them the hell alone! > (Sigh) Then, as you mention later, there is also the problem of someone > mistaking a feral cat as closer to tame, and because of that expectation, > the person either being injured or disappointed in the relationship with > that cat. OTOH, some people think they can "convert" a feral by smothering the cat with affection. They usually end up in the hospital and the cat usually ends up losing his head (literally). The same situation can happen with shelter cats if the match isn't right. > One thing I have observed is that whenever there is a conflict between human > and animal, the animal is ultimately on the losing side. That's why they need us to stand up for them. > >... An unsocialized feral cat born.in the wild and > > never becomes socialized to people is indeed a wild animal just like a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can see your point there. Any of these animals can be tamed to a degree, > but still be wild with potential for damage to the human who crosses them. Most ferals can never be tamed. The closest they'll come to being tamed is spending their lives hiding under the bed and miserable. > >... Feral or domesticated pet- both are genetically identical to Felis > >Silvestris Lybica- the African Wildcat- a wild animal by anyone's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I don't know about other countries, but I assume that the African Wildcat is > not indigenous to the U.S. Yes. The African Wildcat is not indigenous to the U.S- its from Africa. Cats in the US and most of the world- are considered a subspecies of the African Wildcat - Felis silvestris catus a/k/a Felis silvestris domesticus. They're genetically identical to the African Wildcat- although some might be a mix of FS Lybica and Felis Chaus. The African Wildcat has the most docile temperament of all the Felis species. Cats that arrived here were domestic cats > brought by humans. The very first to arrive probably were not the pampered > housecats we see here today. They would have been expected to earn their > keep. It's easy to see how descendants of those cats could move out and > become feral and survive. Actually, the first cats in the US were probably stowaways on ships. In the early days of shipping, insurance companies wouldn't insure shipments of grain if the ships didn't have cats onboard to protect the grain shipments from rats and mice.-- Many of the cats jumped ship and followed the food. True story. It pisses me off when fanatical bird groups call cats an "invasive species". That's like inviting a guest to your home and then having them arrested for trespassing! > I suspect that it is not so easy for today's pet cats to survive on their > own. A cat that spent her entire life indoors would have a rough time surviving on her own. > If that hypothetical lost domesticated pet cat lives long enough to be the > founder of a feral colony, it would be because that pet was not spayed or > neutered. That is why I say today's feral colonies are the result of human > neglect. Not only feral colonies- but cats in shelters, too. For every cat that dies in a shelter or outside, someone, somewhere is responsible for the death. Phil > What do you call cats who were born outside, have lived there all their > lives but have had dealings with humans. Whatdaya mean by "had dealings with humans"? We picked up 4 brothers (approx. 9 > mo old)recently who were born behind a restaurant. I don't know that anyone > could pet them while they were outside but they were feeding them... well > lol. A lot of hard ferals will let their feeders touch them- even rub up against them- but only their feeders. One of the brothers came around rather quickly and is available for > adoption already. One looks like he's going to have to be put back because > he's not coming around at all and the jury is out on the other two. Personality and temperment can vary greatly between littermates. Some cats take longer than others to come around- could take several weeks to several months or even a year or more- some cats never come around. You need to find the right person who is willing to give the cat all the time he needs without forcing themselves on the cat and understands and accepts the possibility that the cat may never become a lap cat. I'll get > an update this weekend. They haven't been aggressive but aren't getting past > the flat ears, cowering, scared cat point. The foster said she was going to > try separating them and see if there is any progress. It doesn't seem like she has the patience- or maybe the time- to let the cats come around in their own good time. Separating them is probably the worst thing she could do. Ferals develop strong bonds with each other-especially littermates. I think keeping them all together will make the transition less stressful and traumatic. If not they can get > returned where they came from as they do have a feeder in addition to the > tidbits the restaurant people put out for them. I just had to have a > discussion with them over feeding stuff with onions though. > > http://www.savethecatsinc.com/animals/detail?AnimalID=86110 How much time is the foster willing to invest in these cats? The feeder would probably be a better choice and would probably make more progress since the cats already know and probably trust her. Phil The reason that I posted this was that I had been thinking about some of thiis stuff since I took over part-time feeder duties for a small colony of local outdoor cats - and am now working with a rescue that "only" takes adoptable cats and shys away from ferals - however that is described - and that is where the rubber hits the road - isn't it? I think the article made some sensible points about TNR and it was bracing for me to read it since I go through regular bouts of anguish about whether I should be trying to "rescue" the street crew (who are spayed and neutered and have regular feeders as well as a fairly secure residential property where they are more or less welcome on the grounds), but as I have gotten to know them some have become pettable and that definitely makes it harder - although I know intellectually that they will most likely respond pretty badly to a cage and the embraces of strangers - having never "belonged" to anyone - and it takes too long to adopt out "friendly" adult cats as it is. But it's hard ... The article also doesn't make the meaningful distinction between feral and semi-feral that has to be made and as 2 of my 3 that live in my house have the ear clip - somewhat unjustly - I'm starting to think feral is a term that we need to be more precise about. One of mine probably has some claim to feral - not born in the wild, but abandoned as a young cat in parkland and lived for several months with the colony (well on the outskirts of it anyway) before being picked up by a TNR crew who noticed that she didn't WANT to leave the crate after being spayed and got her into rescue. I'd describe her as traumatized more than feral per se, but she'll never be a normal, socialized cat - big panic reactions and anxiety - although she has come an incredibly long way. The other apparently was born to a feral mom and while she has some weird behavior from time to time - was removed and socialized quite young and isn't remotely a wild cat, just has a notched ear, that's all. The 3rd one is domestic all the way and handles the "manage the humans" issues for the trio :> And yeah, you can tell the difference ... Anyway just food for thought, I guess. -T > > http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/TNRnotTNA.pdf > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > shelter for four months, were she truly a feral adult I doubt they could > have socialized her in that time. She was probably a stray. A feral is hard to miss if you know what to look for. -L. > She was probably a stray. A feral is hard to miss if you know what to > look for. I imagine this is true. Sometimes people just like to use the more dramatic word to describe them, maybe. People can be so weird. Even from her shelter picture, I could see how polite she was. This cat meows as she is approaching for loving, a series of quizzical little mews, like she is asking permission. She had to be very young, though, when they found her pregnant, because she had been at the shelter for four months when I adopted her, had had her kittens and been spayed. I could definitely see her being born among humans and then dumped. Her brother was found with her at the same trailer park, the lady said. Gracie only had two kittens, both gray tabbies like her, and she nursed a third, who was orphaned.
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