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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2006How do I know if he is reblocking?
I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the first thing I do is go to the litter box. At that time, my other cat was using it. So, when he was done, I cleaned it and there was two total pees in it from the day. After a little bit, my little guy who was blocked used it and he did not pee all that much, although it was not much less at all than my healthy cat. There was no straining and he is no exhibiting any other symptoms like he did last week. I would say that the pee in the litter box amounted to about the size of a golf ball. Does this sound like he is reblocking? You know, before he blocked, I never paid attention to the size of the pees in the litter box, so now I don't know what is normal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! I have never had a blocked kitty - thank God - but my 4 year old pees twice a day an oval about 4 inches long and 3 inches wide. He is on canned food. > I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat > last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Message posted via CatKB.com > http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cat-health/200610/1 > I am absolutely paranoid since experiencing my first blockage with my cat > last weekend. He has been doing great. I just got home from work and the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of the pees in the litter box, so now I don't know what is normal. Any > advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption and won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys. Phil > Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption and > won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys. > > Phil What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his pees? --tension > > Add a little salt to his diet- it will increase his water consumption and > > won't hurt his blood pressure or kidneys. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his > pees? Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine volume the more dilute the urine and the lower the risk of crystals forming. Any more questions? > Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly > calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine > volume the more dilute the urine and the lower the risk of crystals forming. > > Any more questions? Thank you for your response. Yes, indeed, I have more questions. First of all, are you a DVM? I'll be much more reassured, though it wouldn't be necessary if you can explain the mechanism sufficiently as you did. I am aware of the value of diluting the urine to reduce the precipitation factor of crystalloids, but this is not generally a method for increasing water intake with humans (including babies who like cats cannot be told to drink more) and so my next question: Second of all, I am very curious to know what it is about a cat's physiology that would protect him from hypertension and renal disease from too much salt intake? Third of all, is there really nothing that could be added directly to the water to make it more palatable to the cat without having to make him thirsty or altering the balance of his fluids and electrolytes? Fourth of all, since you are asking for questions, what is the most common calculus composition in cats? --tension > > Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly > > calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes, indeed, I have more questions. It was a rhetorical question... Seems like you have a lot of research to do... Are you related to Treeline by any chance? Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in the meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's urine output is still get smaller everyday. I went to the vet's over the weekend (without my cat, just to pick up food) and told the vet about this and was told that as long as he is peeing when he is in the litter box he is not blocked. But now when I check, he is only putting out urine that is clumping to about the size of a dime and I am getting really worried. He is not straining in the litter box when he does this so could this just be how he usually is? I never paid attention before the blockage. He had two decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night. What do you guys think? >> > Yeah- That's right. The urine concentration of solutes- especilly >> > calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The higher the urine [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Are you related to Treeline by any chance? > Ok, I am back and am currently waiting for my vet to call me back but in the > meantime, I thought I would ask the question here. I feel like my cat's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > decent size urine outputs yesterday, one being about 11:30 last night. What > do you guys think? If you remember, I said in a previous post that the tight junctions between the muscle fibers in the bladder might have separated a bit if his bladder was overdistended. So he might have a little trouble contracting his bladder. It might take a few days for the tight junctions to reform. Its also possible all the crystals haven't dissolved completely yet, so, I'd keep a very close watch on his litter box behavior. If you see him strain, or try to pee and nothing or very little comes out, don't wait to take him back to the vet. Best of luck, Phil > > > Any more questions? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Seems like you have a lot of research to do... > Are you related to Treeline by any chance? No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am so surprised by your suggestion is that it would seem to me that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not it contains sufficient water content. A cat who has had urinary blockage and likely from struvite crytals has an essential need for lots of water, a point upon which we obviously agree. But I question salt in the diet as being the first and most appropriate suggestion. The first suggestion I would have made is to ensure that the cat is on a canned or raw meat diet allowing for at least a 70% water content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about 10% water. Cats on dry food will drink more free water, but not generally enough to compensate what they would get if they ate a watery diet such as wet food. Cats do not have a strong thirst mechanism and trying to heighten it with salt, rather than working with the cats own physiology and giving him a diet which is less prone to causing a state of chronic dehydration seems a much more sensible route to me. Since struvite crystals are highly precipitable in low water content, I don't really see the point of adding salt to a diet to temporarily increase thirst, and water intake in a way which would then subsequently trigger a compensatory response of increased urine *and* salt output resulting once again in the original state of chronic dehydration. That seems like a quick fix solution, rather than a definitive answer that might actually get at the etiology of the original problem. And I fail to see why cats are *protected* from hypertension. My own cat is hypertensive, though not from salt intake, for sure. But cats are prone to hypertension for other reasons, a common cause being hyperthyroidism, for example, and since chronic renal failure, which most certainly can result from hypertension, is one of the number one killers of domestic cats, I am curious to know why you think salt can be added to the diet so easily with impunity? I am not a DVM, and if you are, and if you are here in good faith to answer people's questions, why won't you engage in an informative discussion with me about this? If I am mistaken about anything I have said here, I would most humbly appreciate being corrected. But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat arrogant and condescending of you. It would certainly be informative for many people reading this post including the original poster who has problems with his cat. --tension > > > > Any more questions? > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. That's a surprise. Why did you > not answer any of my questions? Google the group- You'll find I've answered the same questions at least a few hundred times over the last 7 or 8 years. But the real reason I didn't answer is because I didn't like the way you asked or your first reply to my post. I have done quite a bit of > research about this area, for the record, and the reason I am > so surprised by your suggestion Apparently your "quite a bit of research" isn't as much as you think it is-- Since my suggestion surprised you, obviously, your research wasn't enough and you don't know as much as you think you do. is that it would seem to me > that the very first suggestion you should have made, if you > are qualified (which I still don't know if you are, or not) Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine whose "qualified". > should have been regarding the diet itself, and whether or not > it contains sufficient water content. No, really? Nothing gets past your lightening quick perception, does it? Feeding canned food *was* my first suggestion, Einstein. This isn't the first thread by the OP on this subject. Perhaps you should read the group to see what has been posted before you shoot yourself in the foot trying to show how much you (don't) know.. From: "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 1:28 AM Subject: Re: My cat just had a blockage. What now? "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message news:66lWg.3512$W35.1657@trnddc06 "Whether he had a crystal or plug- your should feed your cat only canned food if possible. The type of diet depends on the type of crystals: Hill's s/d for struvite dissolution and c/d for management; Hill's x/d for calcium oxalate. Canned diets increase water consumption which results in a more dilute urine. The increased water consumption also results in more frequent urination which helps eliminate small crystal particles before they become large enough to interfere with urination. You can help increase his water consumption by adding a few more water bowls and getting a a Drinkwell water fountain." When your foot heals, visit the Feline Nutrition section on my site and look up the references on the bottom of the page. You might learn something. Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better? http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry_Food_vs_Canned_Food.__Which_is _reall <snip> I am curious to know why you think salt > can be added to the diet so easily with impunity? Here's why: J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary NaCl affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627 Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood pressure in cats with normal and reduced renal function. . > I am not a DVM, and if you are, Neither am I. and if you are here in good faith to > answer people's questions, I answer questions to help people help their cats- I don't have time for pissing contests with a.sholes who read a few websites and think they know so much. By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want all the groups to see what a jerk you are? tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my kitty and all the advice he has given has been the same advice given to me by my vet as well when I talk to them. He definitely knows what he is talking about and I have read in other articles that applying a small amount of salt to the food is helpful is getting cats to drink more. Like I said before I really really appreciate your concern (my kitty Trouble thanks you as well) but Phil really does know what he is talking about. Once again Phil, thank you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than you know. >> > > > Any more questions? >> > > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] >By the way- why did you crosspost this thread to other groups? Do you want >all the groups to see what a jerk you are? Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL > tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want > to [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] >>want >>all the groups to see what a jerk you are? > Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my transition > with Rumbles' diabetes easier. Also add so did MaryL Yes, I have noticed that MaryL is quite knowledgeable. But you'll notice a world of difference in the style in which she gives advice. She explains herself very clearly and does not take offense at questions. I am glad that he has been able to help you Matthew. I hope, as you will see, from reading my other posts here, that his helpfulness will continue, but improve by being more thoughtful about how he posts his advice. I have taken the trouble to check out his website and it is no doubt an excellent website. At first I could hardly believe it was made by the same person. If he continues that style here in the NG, of meticulously explaining mechanisms, he will continue to be a valuable asset to the group. Just don't be hesitant to question sources, or ask for references if something doesn't sound intuitively obvious. Perhaps this is nothing more than a personal crusade of mine to empower patients....but I believe it is crucial, and especially here on the newsgroup. --tension You just have to remember words can be interpreted so many ways with out the emotions behind them. To be honest I thought you were being a little of a smart a@@ in the post Not defending anyone in particular just in general. step back and look at it from another angle say it out loud see how it sounds. It is so easy to misinterpret anything written look at religion ( NO DON'T GO THERE it was an example) And in Phil's defense we have so many a@@holes and trolls that come here it is hard to make out friend or foe sometimes. Both me and you are in the other cat groups you see the idiocy that goes on there. Same here so more intelligence in this group >> Phil has also helped me quite a bit with Rumble and had made my >> transition [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > --tension > You just have to remember words can be interpreted so many ways with out > the emotions behind them. > > To be honest I thought you were being a little of a smart a@@ in the post Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, Matthew, but at least you don't say it in a rude or insulting way. The thing about that post is if you look at it from the point of view of posterity, which you must always do before clicking "post" because it is going to be there for eternity or at least our own lifetime, you will realize that someone five months from now who is searching the archives on ideas about preventing reblocking is going to see this isolated, categorical recommendation which is not acceptable as it stands. My post, as startling or smart@ss as it may appear to you now, knowing both "Dr. Phil" and myself as you do.... needs to be there as a red flag to anyone who reads it in the future without the benefit of seeing any other connected posts to Momo's cat. That future point of view is the one that concerns me most when posting to a newsgroup. It isn't just public e-mail....it is archived material which is available as a resource to others, and one should always keep that in mind when reading or posting any thread. "Dr. Phil" has created a nice little legacy of "Rush Limbaugh"-type posts which I would never, were I the culprit, want preserved for my grandkids to see. I would be mortally ashamed if any of my family saw posts in my name such as what he has posted just here today alone. No humility at all, just abuse. I would die of mortification if I were looking up my grandfather's posts on the newsgroup and this was what I found! I would never want to reveal to the world the pathetic need for ego-stroking that he has done, or the transparent insecurity that pounces on any kind of dissent with useless and uninformative attacks. I never put anything on a newsgroup that cannot stand alone as a post without reference to other threads, or that would be an embarassment to my ability to conduct myself as a decent human being. He posts as if he is talking in a bar...but the words are preserved. And anyone who is in need of help, and comes across this individual, and wants to check his previous posts as some kind of evidence of what kind of individual they are dealing with is going to come across this drivel, and fortunately also they are now going to see my posts too. Then they can decide if this is the type of individual they want to take advice from regarding their cats. Some people cannot take the time to investigate the authenticity of his information, and all they have to go on is his bewitching personality. --tension "tension_on_the_wire" <tension_at_home@yahoo.com> wrote : > "Dr. Phil" has created a nice little legacy of "Rush Limbaugh"-type > posts which I would never, were I the culprit, want preserved > for my grandkids to see. My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet. In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time. You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all. My cats are not better off because of you but they sure are due to Phil's time and efforts. So he's rude at times. He saved my cat from thyroid surgery that might have been the worst thing I could have done for her, and has held many other hands through much worse problems while providing information that has on repeated occasions been instructive to vets. When is the last time you did anything half that helpful for anyone?  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet. It's not myself that I take seriously, it is the onus to act responsibly that I take seriously. It isn't "just" Usenet when people are taking medical decisions from it. Make one mistake on account of advice from Usenet, and you will understand what I mean. > In addition, people who have posted here for years know that Phil > knows what he is talking about a very good percentage of the time. > You on the other hand have contributed nothing at all. Yes but I do not present myself as coming here for the purpose of helping anyone with their cats, nor do I claim to be making that sort of contribution...and what does that have to do with the price of eggs, anyway? It is not even the issue at hand here.. It is just Usenet, after all, didn't someone just say that? I am not pitting myself against him in any type of competition. All I did was question his judgment and I don't see any rules that say this is not permitted on Usenet. His response was reprehensible and continues to be so. So I will call it as I see it, and I will not be insulted out of the thread by his baseless attacks and accusations. How much he has helped you and others is commendable but completely irrelevant to that issue. > When is the last time you did anything half that helpful for anyone? Since you ask, I have spent a long and fruitful career preventing people and their children from dying in trauma ICU's, ER's, OR's, delivery rooms, NICU's and other critical care areas of hospitals in three different countries, for a start. And never, once, did I condescend or patronize even one of them, or their parents, no matter how rude or inappropriate their behaviour might have become (one can forgive alot when families are under *that* type of stress). And for the record, I have been informed by police and fire departments that I am one of the very few physicians in whatever geographical area to bother to stop and render medical assistance at the scenes of accidents and other medical emergencies that take place on the street. There is more than one person walking around this planet right now because I was at hand when the need arose. If your question pertains to helpfulness on the newsgroups, I invite you to read my posting history and you will see just exactly how many people have considered my posts helpful to them, (and without being demeaning or humiliating in any way) in the last two or three months alone. I do know what I am talking about when it comes to giving responsible advice of a medical nature over the newsgroups. --tension Oh, dear, you've attracted cybercat's attention by daring to disagree....you're in trouble now....it might call you 'stupid' if you're not careful.... >> My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet. > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > --tension > > My God, but you take yourself seriously. It is just Usenet. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes but I do not present myself as coming here for the > purpose of helping anyone with their cats, IOW, you're just here to whine and complain! If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something-- you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more comfortable in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to fragile for this group. > If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something-- > you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more comfortable > in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to fragile > for this group. I see, so not only are you a quack-vet, you are a quack-psychiatrist also. Any other quack-professions you would like to let us in on? Quack-Nam-vet too, maybe? --tension > > If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something-- > > you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more comfortable > > in an O.C.D. group for prima donnas. You're personality is far to fragile > > for this group. > > I see, so not only are you a quack-vet, Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol! I see I still have your panties in a bunch! Its easy to understand why you call yourself "tension"-- you're wrapped way too tight! lol! You know, if you were a little smarter, I'd say you're a troll. > > > If you think my manners are a problem, let me clue you in on something-- > > > you're problem is a thousand times worse! I think you'd be more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to > help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol! No....just you. You are the only one who acts like a vet and bridles when asked about it. > I see I still have your panties in a bunch! No, that's you too....you are the one who keeps needing to answer everyone's post, line by line (which, since you brought the subject up, is quite indicative of OCD, ironically enough) and defend yourself in the only way you know how... by attacking others. Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch. You haven't succeeded yet. I invite you to try again. --tension > > > I see, so not only are you a quack-vet, > > > > Quack vet? lol! Then I guess you must think everyone here who tries to > > help people help their cats with advice is a "quack vet"! lol! > > No....just you. You are the only one who acts like a vet Golly gee, Tinkerbell, what you're really seeing- but you just don't realize it, is my >45 years of research and experience working with cats. Btw, Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! > > I see I still have your panties in a bunch! > > No, that's you too.... Sure it is, Tink. lol! Is that why you've been writing one whining novel after another? lol > Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch. > You haven't succeeded yet. I don't think so, Tinkerbell. I've had your panties in a knot since my first reply to you. lol! And you've been whining ever since. lol > Golly gee, Tinkerbell, what you're really seeing- but you just don't realize > it, is my >45 years of research and experience working with cats. Btw, > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! LOL! Golly gee Dr. Phil!! We wouldn't know since we haven't seen one in here yet. You are the only one who acts as if he thinks he is a vet. And hesitates to admit that he is not. Is that clear enough for you? Do you need more 30-line posts? I note that you are the only one posting great big whining complaints for some time now. Tell me more about your 45 years of experience. It is utterly irrelevant to the topic of this post, I never questioned your knowledge, just your manners. And with every post, you prove me right! Lol. (looks around for someone named *Tink*...oh, the previous posters cat, well Dr. Phil must be getting Alzheimer's too, then) > > > I see I still have your panties in a bunch! > > No, that's you too.... > Sure it is, Tink. lol! Is that why you've been writing one whining novel > after another? lol Yes, let's count the number of posts that constitute novel length, shall we? Oh guess what? Yours outnumber mine by a factor of three to two. And yours are *much* longer. Practising for a filibuster somewhere, are you? Lol! > > Try...please try to get my panties in a bunch. > > You haven't succeeded yet. > I don't think so, Tinkerbell. I've had your panties in a knot since my > first reply to you. lol! And you've been whining ever since. lol Yes, this is commonly known as projection, when someone is so enraged, they can't type straight, and waste their time accusing others of what they themselves are doing. Every post of yours so far has been a supreme example of that. If you really want to figure out whose knickers are in a twist (or panties, which you seem to prefer...is that ladies panties?)...just count the posts that were typed in anger and you will have your answer. Oh, golly gee...it's Dr. Phil ranting and yelling all over the place. Now what *could* that possibly mean? Why yes, I think several sensitive nerves got hit when this poster dared to come into this group. Not to mention the "adynamic ileus" response, ROFLMAO. --tension > > Btw, > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! Since you ask: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8 --tension > > > Btw, > > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! > > Since you ask: > http://youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8 That was funny! I loved it- I sent it to my vets. Thanks You must have pooped out that bug- there still might be some hope for you! > > > > Btw, > > > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You must have pooped out that bug- there still might be some hope for you! 8^P --tension > > > Btw, > > > Tink, exactly how does a vet act? lol! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > --tension LMAO! I'm not usually a Monty Python fan, but that was pretty funny. Lauren (and Mickey & Meesha) Raise Your Paw for Raw! See my cats: http://mickeymeesha.photosite.com/mm/ I never questioned your knowledge, > just your manners. No, really? Golly gee, Tinkerbell, no one's ever told me that I have bad manners before... lol Surely, you must be the only person on the planet that doesn't like my manners... Actually, I don't mind if you don't like my manners- I don't like them myself, they're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter nights. lol Well, Tinkerbell, the way I see it you have two choices: 1: Learn to live with it and stop whining incessantly about how bad my manners are; and 2: killfile me so you don't have to whine incessantly about how badly I hurt your delicate feelings. Either choice should stop your incessant whining. Well, Tinkerbell- I can see you'll just keep going on and on like a bad case of diarrhea, so I'll leave you now to sulk in the corner and pamper your shattered, delicate feelings. Its been fun playing with you, I needed a break- but I do have much more important matters to tend to. Ta ta > I never questioned your knowledge, > > just your manners. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ta ta Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up! --tension > Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up! > > --tension This same discussion has been played out probably 50 times in this ng with Phil, for the same reasons. It was a waste of time to begin with. When you start worrying about other people's manners and posting style and motivations on Usenet, it's time to quit reading Usenet. -L. >>Phew!! I was beginning to wonder if you would *ever* give up! >> >>--tension > This same discussion has been played out probably 50 times in this ng > with Phil, for the same reasons. It was a waste of time to begin with. > When you start worrying about other people's manners and posting style > and motivations on Usenet, it's time to quit reading Usenet. Well, I suppose it's a waste of time to people who read it and aren't interested, but it's quite easy to mark a thread as read. I did find your post with the link quite interesting. And the thread allowed me to see that -tension is someone who can stand up for their beliefs even when they catch flack for it. Oh yah, and be civil at the same time -- a lost art on uesenet, I'll admit. Rhonda I am one of the very > few physicians Holy sh.t! You're a medical doctor???? I'd bet you have to give your patients sedatives to get them it through a consultation! I wonder how many patients you bored to death with your incessant whining? > tension_on_the_wire , I want to thank you for your concern but I also want to > say that Phil P has been so helpful to me through this difficult time with my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you for all you have done through all of my posts, I appreciate it more than > you know. Thank you for your well-meaning post, MoMo. I do understand that some people have gotten quite a bit of advice from this poster. I have no objection to that at all, as long as it is coming from someone who has the knowledge, and takes the responsibility seriously enough. I don't question his knowledge base, per se. But, giving medical advice over a newsgroup is a delicate thing, and fraught with peril when one cannot actually examine a patient. I don't insist that advice must be given by someone "qualified" in the traditional sense, but it must be done very carefully and with a lot of explanation and meticulous attention to any qualifying conditions. To retort to me, as he did, when I dared to ask whether he was a DVM, which was, after all, not an unreasonable question considering the nature of the advice and the utter confidence with which he gives it: "Qualified? This is a newsgroup, Einstein. Who the hell are you to determine whose "qualified"." implies that he thinks there is no need to explain the certainty of his knowledge when posting medical advice.. That is certainly a lower standard than there would be in a clinic, and it implies that he feels one does not need to be qualified in order to give medical advice on a newsgroup. Does that reassure you? Not me, for sure. When someone asks me what qualifications I have for giving medical advice, I tell them straight away, no ego involved. Ego and medicine do not mix....as I'm sure we have all found out in one setting or another. You are right about salt getting cats to drink more, of course, and I don't dispute that...that's why they serve pretzels in bars and pubs. But there are some qualifying conditions necessary to make it result in more peeing, including a very careful assessment of the pre-existing fluid status of the cat when you add the salt. A cat in a state of chronic dehydration, which is often the case in cats which have suffered from blockage, especially on dry food, will not necessarily pee out the extra water. Dehydration overrides all mechanisms for peeing out salt or water. And adding salt to a cat which has "hypernatremic" dehydration (high blood salt level) can result in serious damage. And Phil should have carefully explained that to you when suggesting the salt. He should have asked you for the electrolytes labs on your cat. And he had no call to jump down my throat when I questioned his post. That is my main objection. Someone capable of being measurably helpful in this newsgroup, in a medical way, should conduct himself with a little more care and thought to what he is leaving unsaid. And it doesn't matter how many times he might have said it in previous posts or to other posters. It must be said again, and anew to any poster who asks the question again. Medical advice cannot be relegated to an FAQ, or an assumption that people have read the entire history of that NG and should be expected to understand tacitly what he *means*. Not when the health of a living being is involved. *Your* own precious cat, as it turns out, in this case. He should continue to share his knowledge if he is doing it in good faith, but he should take greater care to explain, and part of the reason I am persisting in this "debate" with him is to emphasize to the readers here that they should question him carefully if he doesn't explain. He has knowledge, but no one is infallible and you do not want to find that out the hard way, so ask for explanations. --tension >>>>Any more questions? >>> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > for many people reading this post including the original poster who has > problems with his cat. Tension, It was wonderful to read your posts. You seem like a very intelligent, and better yet -- in control of your emotions! I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Hope you stick around and continue to be a level-headed voice, and be willing to stick your neck out. Rhonda "Rhonda" <san-toki@att.remove.net> wrote in message > I also would question giving a cat more salt. When our cat had crystals, > I saw one urinary cat food added extra salt to get the cat to drink > more, and I did not buy it. That makes me terribly uneasy. Salt in the body causes it to retain water. When a cat (or a person for that matter) is dehydrated, taking in extra salt or salty foods causes one to drink more and retain water eliminating some of that dehydration. When a person is dehydrated (within reason), one recommended trick is for a person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water. > "Rhonda" <san-toki@att.remove.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > person to suck on a bullion cube which is mostly salt to get it into the > body and cause it to ingest and retain some much needed water. That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) Rhonda > That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have > the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) No, no no. Salt significantly increases water intake and urine production- which is *exactly* what you want for a cat with any type of crystals-- especially calcium oxalate: "Increasing water consumption by feeding increased amounts of canned food or feeding a dry diet formulated with additional salt (7, 8, 9). It has been shown that salt significantly increases water intake and urine production, significantly decreases urinary concentrations of oxalate, and significantly decreases relative supersaturation (RSS) for calcium oxalate (9,10). Salt has not been shown to contribute to hypertension or renal disease in healthy cats (11, 12)." 7. Buffington CAT, Chew DJ. Diet therapy in cats with lower urinary tract disorders. Vet Med 1999; 94: 625-630. 8. Houston DM. Diagnosis and management of feline lower urinary tract disease. Standards of Care: Emergency and Critical Care Medicine. Sept 2002; 4(8): 5-10. 9. Biourge V, Devois C, Morice G, et al. Dietary NaCl significantly increases urine volume but does not increase urinary calcium oxalate supersaturation in healthy cats. J Vet Intern Med 2001; 866. 10. Smith BH, Stevenson AE, Markwell PJ. Urinary relative supersaturations of calcium oxalate and struvite in cats are influenced by diet. J Nutr 1998; 128:2763S-64S. 11. Luckschander N, Iben C, Desprez C, et al. Does increasing dietary Nail affect blood pressure in adult healthy cats? J Vet Intern Med 2002;16:788. 12. Buranakarl C, Mathur S, Brown SA. Effects of dietary sodium chloride intake on renal function and blood pressure n cats with normal and reduced renal function. Am J Vet Res 2004; 65 (5): 620-627. excerpted from: North American Veterinary Conference January 7, 2006 WATER INTAKE AND URINE OUTPUT: WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW ABOUT CATS AND URINARY TRACT DISORDERS Doreen M. Houston, DVM, DVSc, Diplomate ACVIM > > "Rhonda" <san-toki@att.remove.net> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > That's interesting. So in this case, a cat with crystals, it would have > the opposite effect of what the cat needed (more urine output.) Actually, Rhonda, and thank you for your previous post as well, the homeostasis (keeping the body's fluids and electrolytes in balance) system is extremely fine tuned. Upscale is correct about the effect of salt, in its ability to increase body water. One of the main methods the body controls body water is by controlling salt balance in the blood. But the effect on a chronically dehydrated animal or person should be to retain both the salt and the water, so that method will not result in a higher urine output unless the animal has normal fluid balance to begin with (this is simplifying it, there are more variables depending on whether the dehydration is of the high or low salt-level type). That was why I questioned the issue of diet. However, if the original salt levels were normal, like in a healthy animal on a canned food diet, the extra salt will result in a compensatory effect from the kidneys in that they will act to rid the body of any excess salt in the end, and salt cannot be eliminated by the kidneys without water. Hence the extra water the cat drinks does indeed end up in the bladder where we want it along with the salt. My only question was regarding the wisdom of doing that for a cat which is already potentially in a chronically dehydrated state as many cats are who subsist on a dry diet. And of course, for evidence that this treatment would not result in hypertension in the cat as it most certainly does in humans who consume too much salt. Not such an outrageous question, I thought! 8^P --tension > Not such an outrageous question, I thought! It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it. > > Not such an outrageous question, I thought! > > It wasn't the question- it was the way you asked it. Here is how I asked it: Second of all, I am very curious to know what it is about a cat's physiology that would protect him from hypertension and renal disease from too much salt intake? Now I am quite curious to know what was so rude about that? Especially considering the fact that it was a direct response to your post inquiring whether I had any more questions! And yes, I do know what a rhetorical question is, and I know the difference between that and arrogant sarcasm. Fortunately, I had the courtesy to ignore your sarcasm and keep mine to myself. You did me no such favor. It was some time later that you finally gave me the references that would answer my question. Thank you. Finally. Would have saved us all a lot of pain if you had posted those right away instead of the exceedingly rude response that you gave me. As a matter of fact, I can't find even one post in which you have not been extremely discourteous towards me and why? Because I had the temerity to question your judgment? It was not such an unreasonable question, after all. And showing surprise at your post about salt was not particularly rude, either, I might add, unless you are a person who is quick to take offense whenever your knowledge is questioned. Surely when you posted information on a newsgroup, you came prepared to be challenged by the occasional knowledgeable person coming through who finds himself skeptical of your response. And surely you are not really so egotistic as to think that the first thing he is going to do is rifle through all your other posts just in case this thread happens to be a carryover from another thread!! And most surely of all, if others here have a high opinion of you, as some seem to do, you would not be so insecure as to truly believe that I am here to start a "pissing contest"? I know for sure, that I am not that insecure, because if I were, I would have deluged you with my qualifications at the getgo. When a person takes the risk of offering medical advice of any type on a newsgroup, even if it is "only" for cats, anyone, including "Einstein" (which is *not* my name, and I would appreciate it if you would make a note of that fact) is entitled to ask how you are qualified to give that advice. And you should be prepared to answer that question promptly or you are acting irresponsibly. I know whereof I speak. Either way, even if those *are* your unreasonable expectations, you could surely have handled the situation with a bit more dignity and courtesy than to treat me like a troll. --tension > > > Not such an outrageous question, I thought! > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hypertension and renal disease from too much salt > intake? No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: "What?! Are you actually suggesting that he add salt to the cat's diet just to be happy about the size of his pees?" That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question. > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's what I didn't like. So, don't try to come off as a poor little > innocent victim who got hammered for asking a question. First of all, considering the context of the post, there was nothing at all inappropriate about me expressing surprise at your suggestion since you did not bother to couch it in any terms which explained its mechanism to the poster and that is highly inappropriate when one presumes to give medical advice of any type. Precisely what, may I ask, is so rude about my expressing surprise and skepticism at your somewhat unusual suggestion? You set yourself up for it in the categorical manner in which you gave the advice in the first place. Please, point out where, in that, or in any other post, did I use insulting, derogatory, abusive or sarcastic language towards you. If the only example you can come up with is the one you just quoted above, then I'm afraid your argument is pretty lame. You didn't "like" it when I presumed to express skepticism? Or was my tone just not humble enough to stroke your magnificent ego? Even if I had posted in an openly rude or abusive manner, as you have done to me on several occasions now, you still had no call to continue or maintain such a negative tone in such an ongoing manner as you still continue to do. Even now, you are writing to me as if you are in a position to dictate to me the gospel according to Dr. Phil, and as if I have no right to question your knowledge. By your logic, I should be ranting at the top of my voice by now on account of the appalling attitude you continue to express toward me. I am not. I have restrained myself despite your abusive posts. You would do well to do the same. The fact that you have, of your own free will, pointed out that post of mine as something to be offended at reveals a great deal about you and your ego. Most people, when challenged in that manner would not have responded in such a rude and discourteous way as you did. Your answer was sarcastic, demeaning, unnecessary and clearly intended to intimidate me with your knowledge and jargon, even though the content of your answer was incomplete. Had you given a more courteous answer, along with the references you finally, in the end, came up with, it would have ended the discussion after one post. You did not. You gave an answer which essentially implied that I should not presume to question you, and that you know more about this issue than I could ever have learned. Quite a presumption on your part, in fact, as it turns out. And when I chose to politely ignore your sarcasm, and take your statement at your word, and ask the questions that you falsely invited, your posts became even more abusive and insulting. Needlessly so, I might point out, since I am still restraining my temper regardless of your continuing insistence in writing to me in such a condescending and patronising manner. If anyone is trying to convolute the issue here, it is you. Read your own posts again, carefully. Several times you have mentioned how you "didn't like" the way I spoke to you and somehow you seem to feel that it justifies rudeness and discourtesy. It does not. It reveals you for what you are...someone who thinks so highly of himself and his knowledge that he has the right to judge and condemn any poster who has the audacity to question his statements. You didn't "like" the way I posed my question? You would have been happier if I had posted with supplication perhaps to your august sum of knowledge....please sir, tell me more? Shall I sit at your feet, Master? Get over yourself. There are others here with knowlege too, and if they choose to question yours, it would behoove you to answer their questions appropriately, and without all the attitude. --tension > > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > First of all, Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who got your feelings hurt. Get over it. >> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who > got your feelings hurt. Get over it. And you are acting like a rescuer who has read books and sets yourself up as a expert against someone who really knows what they are talking about and you don't like it. I don't admire your stance. You've been rude and provocative whereas tension has been very reasonable in response. Especially as she has a lot over on you as regards medical qualifications! Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have. Tweed >>> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: >>> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > over on you as regards medical qualifications! > Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have. This is the first thing in months you have to offer to h+b? Pretty sad. Phil at least offers useful information. > >> > No no no- Don't try to convolute the issue. Your first post was: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Stop whining and get over it. You're acting like spoiled little brat who > > got your feelings hurt. Get over it. When the house is on fire the rats crawl out of the woodwork. Look what just crawled out- > And you are acting like a rescuer who has read books Has read? I still do. If I didn't I'd be as ignorant as you. You were never exactly a fountain of knowledge or experience or help-- or anything for that matter. and sets yourself up as > a expert Naa- I don't set myself as an expert- I only seem like an expert to you- but then again, most people here would seem like experts to you-- its a relativity thing. against someone who really knows what they are talking about and > you don't like it. The only thing I didn't like was the way he asked the question. Anything else you perceive is a delusion. > I don't admire your stance. Don't flatter yourself- I don't want or need your admiration. >You've been rude and provocative Thanks for noticing- I thought so too. That was my intention. whereas > tension has been very reasonable in response. Especially as she has a lot > over on you as regards medical qualifications! Well now, that's sure a surprise- especially since I've made it abundantly clear- for years- that I never had a formal medical education-- just a lot of research and a whole lot of experience. I don't particularly care who he is or what is "qualifications" are. > Which, correct me if I am wrong, you don't have. Neither do you- nor do most people in this newsgroup- Have you had any other epiphanies? > Tweed Don't you mean Twit? You can crawl back into the woodwork now for another few months- I don't think you'll be missed - you never contribute anything useful anyway. > You didn't "like" > it when I presumed to express skepticism? Or was my tone just not > humble enough to stroke your magnificent ego? OMG, I would wear a "Team Tension" t-shirt any day! Rhonda > > Seems like you have a lot of research to do... > > Are you related to Treeline by any chance? > No, I am sorry I don't know anyone by that name. Why did you > not answer any of my questions? I have done quite a bit of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > content, rather than a dry food diet which contains only about > 10% water. My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression :) You're right about water. One good article for me, geniune research article in a refereed journal, I think, from across the pond stated that cats on 100% canned food had zero crystals, either in fresh or stored urine samples. That was pretty darn impressive. Zero crystals. Unfortunately, they did not go into which canned foods, in case that would matter. But even free in stored samples which would tend to generate false positives, I do suspect. You want a reference? You talking to me? Oops, wrong movie: TITL: An investigation into the effects of storage on the diagnosis of crystalluria in cats. AUTH: Sturgess C P; Hesford A; Owen H; Privett R ORGA: Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford, Bristol BS40 5DU, UK. CITE: J Feline Med Surg 2001 Jun; 3 (2): 81-5 Volume 3, Issue 2 ABST: Urinalysis was performed on 41 cats with no history of urinary tract disease. Samples were divided into aliquots, stored under differing condition and then examined for the presence of crystalluria. Crystalluria was detected in at least one stored sample in 92% of cats fed a mixed wet/dry food diet compared to 24% in the fresh sample. Crystalluria was not detected in any sample or aliquot from cats fed all wet food diets. Copyright 2001 European Society of Feline Medicine. MJTR: Cat Diseases, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, veterinary. Specimen Handling, veterinary. MNTR: Animal. Animal Feed. Cat Diseases, urine. Cats. Female. Kidney Calculi, diagnosis. Kidney Calculi, urine. Magnesium Compounds, urine. Male. Phosphates, urine. Predictive Value of Tests. Specimen Handling, standards. So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway, keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around this. Purina has most of their foods, all of them, above this except for a very, very few. It's not clear to me if the phosphorus has anything to do with crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the kidneys work more than they should have to. Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading. Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even if he has the temperament of an angry diva :) > My goodness. It's been a long while since I have posted anything > dealing with Phil P. I must have made a BAAAAD impression :) snip Well, well, the infamous treeline! Nice to meet you. Apparently you and I both...I suspect that you made the mistake of daring to challenge the "one who knows". I didn't know that challenging new information was taboo on this group, but apparently there is at least one poster here who thinks so. Thank you, by the way, for the reference, I will follow it up. It's nice to meet people who are not so egotistical about giving up their sources along with their knowledge. > So let me throw out something. Phosphorus, oops wrong thread. Anyway, > keep the phosphorus low, 0.70%. Science Diet has all their foods around [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > crystals. Probably not. But might have something to do with making the > kidneys work more than they should have to. Phosphorus does play an important role in the kidneys, but much more connected to calcium balance than struvite crystals. That is not insignificant since there is in fact a relatively recent change in the statistics concerning urinary tract stones in cats. They used to be predominantly struvite crystals which were soluble and relatively easy to manage with fluid therapy, but on account of an epidemic of vets who treated urinary tract disease, or tried to prevent it using prescription dry food diets to acidify the urine, in an attempt to make struvite crystals even more soluble, there has been a backlash of cases of stones made from a much more difficult culprit...calcium oxalate, which tends to precipitate out when the urine is more acidic. It is not very soluble at all, and in cats can much more often necessitate surgical removal. In humans, these stones are the ones that generally don't pass too easily, especially when big, and end up needing lithotrypsy...or ultrasound therapy to "shatter" the stone into small shards which can then be passed into a sieve (perhaps you know someone who has been through this...it is considered one of the most painful experiences of humans, second only to childbirth). Anyways, because of those "urinary tract disease" dry diets, the number of cases of calcium oxalate stones has increased quite alot, and has been assessed as high as 40% or more in some studies, and so it should be kept in mind for those whose cats have been on one of these diets. The presence of calcium oxalate in the urine is highly dependent upon calcium balance which is inextricably intertwined with the phosphorus/parathyroid hormone/magnesium/vitD axis, so the answer to your question is, yes, it is important to pay attention to phosphorus balance. If phosphorus intake is too high, calcium gets wasted, sometimes even from the bones, in order to excrete it through the kidneys, and more calcium ends up in the urine. Sorry if that was more information than you wanted to know! > Okay, back to the grind. Phil's okay. He's done a lot of reading. > Bought a lot of textbooks. And it's great to have a well-read sounding > board with lots of experience with strays and rescues I believe, even > if he has the temperament of an angry diva :) Hmm, angry diva, or big fish in a small pond? I could see from the start that he is knowledgeable, or I would not have wasted any time on him. But I have little patience for people who let their knowledge go to their head to the point where they become arrogant. I have not bothered to post my own qualifications to speak about mammalian physiology, because no one asked, although I have been accused of starting a "pissing contest". There are those reading here who do know, however. And they probably also know, or are starting to figure out, that one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely, humbly and helpfully, not to use it to support their opinion of themselves, or to make other people feel lesser. I have heard the claim "I am only trying to help people" more times than I care to relate by people who really only like to feel important, impress others with their knowledge, and put folks down who come for help but go away feeling a bit stupid for not knowing some salient piece of information. Whatever knowledge I have to impart comes free of any price (including emotional), and no one has to suck up to me to get it, either. Once again, treeline, thanks for stepping in to say a word. --tension > one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that > those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > any price (including emotional), and no one has to suck up to me > to get it, either. Marry me! :) Just kidding. :) This is a dearly held belief of mine, too, but after 25+ years of working with self-important software engineering types whose favorite response to any question is "RTFM", it's refreshing to hear an educated, knowledgeable person say something different! Joyce > > one axiom I like to follow in my own life is that > > those who have knowledge carry a responsibility to use it wisely, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > whose favorite response to any question is "RTFM", it's refreshing to > hear an educated, knowledgeable person say something different! Thank you, Joyce. --tension > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat > arrogant and condescending of you. Yeah, well, welcome to H+B. That's Phil's MO when he gets questions he can't answer or gets questioned about anything. The guy must have a dick the side of a planaria. Don't take it personally. -L. > > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat > > arrogant and condescending of you. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -L. Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant. I guess what I'm curious about now is this: as I watch him alienate just about anyone and everyone that has anything to say which isn't directly begging for his Wisdom which is, in his own inflated opinion, so much higher than everyone else posting here, why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct, coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego? I know what just about any reasonable person would say if they had to listen to that type of abuse from a human physician. There would be no end to the rage and fury at his intolerable insults....and he seems to think that this is appropriate public behaviour...can you imagine being a member of his family? Or one of his cats, for that matter, who happens to get on the wrong side of him by not doing what the holy textbook says it would do? I shudder to think! And I do know that a human physician who gave advice in the high-handed and condescending manner that he does would not only alienate the people he claims he is trying to help, but by association, would naturally create a certain amount of distrust in his knowledge. I know that I, for one, will make a point of double-checking anything that comes from him with an alternate source and I certainly recommend everyone else to do the same. By the way....is he the *only* "expert" posting here? Perhaps he has got a bit too comfortable on his little throne. There was a DVM who posted in another group recently offering advice and help...perhaps it would be good to search him out and bring him here. A second or third opinion would not be a bad idea, and should certainly do no harm if Dr. Phil is in earnest about trying to help people. --tension > Thanks -L., fortunately I don't, which is why it is relatively easy > to maintain decorum in the face of someone so insufferably arrogant. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > why would anyone tolerate his advice, even when it is correct, > coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego? Phil saved my cat's life. >> > But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat >> > arrogant and condescending of you. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > --tension Tension I will say this again He personally took time to make sure My Rumble was ok when he was on diazepam for epilepsy. He took the time off the newsgroup to personally contact me to help me out. He and MaryL both sought me out to make sure Rumble was ok when he got diagnosed as a diabetic. Phil might catch an attitude with people to say when stuff like what happens. But he is the most knowledge non vet I have ever had the privilege to associate with. Sometimes I takes a bigger person to walk away or to realize maybe just let it go this is the usernet. I don't know how old your are tension but sometimes letting things get to you just cause yourself more problems. Why do you think I laugh at the idiots in the other groups and won't play into their games I owe Phil a lot and I will take his advice anytime he gives it. And Phil thank you again for everything Rumble and Spirit are doing great. Rumble goes into for his check up soon to check his blood sugar. Spirit is acting like his old self still no reason for his fever but it is gone that is all I care about that I have them both > Sometimes I takes a bigger person to walk away or to realize maybe just let > it go this is the usernet. I don't know how old your are tension but > sometimes letting things get to you just cause yourself more problems. Why > do you think I laugh at the idiots in the other groups and won't play into > their games Well, Matthew, I will admit I'm no spring chicken, but if he claims to have fought in Vietnam, then I'm not as old as he is. In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far as any further response to his ongoing insults. The only people I am responding to now, on this thread, is the other posters like yourself, who are people that I *do* value as newfound friends. Just as in that other thread we were looking at...I find that a disagreement with someone which is unresolvable doesn't mean that the entire thread needs to be dropped if there are other people worth responding to in that thread, like yourself. When I persist, it's because of the other readers, and the lurkers who are reading this stuff. If I have the time, who does it hurt or cause problems for? As you can see, I am not the one who is getting all upset and enraged by anything...it's he who is all bent out of shape and posts accordingly. So maybe I'm not being objective here, but I don't think it is really me who can't let things go....the issue is a dead one for me already, he has demonstrated to me that his personality isn't worth the time. He is the one who continues to post insults, whereas I still have yet to be provoked into his level of behaviour, as far as I can see. From what I can tell, I think I've made my point. And again, Matthew, I am very glad, and grateful too, that he was able to help you, and MoMo and cybercat and everyone else including Ana the cat that just had bowel surgery, and all the other very distressing problems I have seen posted in this group. I've said that several times already. I just don't feel that justifies rude behaviour. No one would ever tolerate it in a doctor, you know! --tension > In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far > as any further response to his ongoing insults. No you haven't. Your just whining to everyone else instead. You do realize you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more f.cked up than you think I am! >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far >> as any further response to his ongoing insults. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you're obsessing over this, don't you? You're way more f.cked up than you > think I am! Gotta love those 30-line posts that are nothing but "booo boooo." Ugh. > >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far > >> as any further response to his ongoing insults. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ugh. I've never seen such a whiner! And I wasn't even that rough with him! Where did this character come from? Did someone fish him out of a pity pot? >> >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far >> >> as any further response to his ongoing insults. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Where > did this character come from? Did someone fish him out of a pity pot? I know the perfect place for tension. Don't you? She/he is clearly an ANECDOLT!! Hey, Gracie has not had a depo shot or any wheezing or EGC lesions/bumps all summer through now! I think I have finally found the right balance of food, cleaning agents, cat litter, etc. I am so pleased. And Boo is still weighing in at 8-9 pounds after losing 9-10 on her canned food diet. She zips around like a kitten, no ill effects from the Tapazole. > >> >> In case you haven't noticed...I sort of *have* walked away as far > >> >> as any further response to his ongoing insults. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I know the perfect place for tension. Don't you? She/he is clearly an > ANECDOLT!! Absolutely! They'd just love Tinkerbell. > Hey, Gracie has not had a depo shot or any wheezing or EGC lesions/bumps > all summer through now! Wow! That's great. I'm really happy she's off the injections. I hope she continues to do well. I think I have finally found the right balance of > food, > cleaning agents, cat litter, etc. I am so pleased. You should be- You worked at it long and hard enough. Its usually very difficult to isolate the allergen(s) that triggers reactions in cats. So when a cat's symptoms finally stabilize, I don't change a thing and just keep my fingers crossed. > And Boo is still weighing in at 8-9 pounds after losing 9-10 on her canned > food diet. She lost 10 pounds?!!! That's absolutely fantastic! > She zips around like a kitten, no ill effects from the Tapazole. Actually, about 80-85% of the cats on Tapazole do well. My cat was in the 15-20% that don't. Her T4 has been holding steady in the dead center of normal and her kidney function has actually improved! I attribute the improvement in kidney function to the omega-3s and potassium. P. > Tension I will say this again He personally took time to make sure My > Rumble was ok when he was on diazepam for epilepsy. He took the time off > the newsgroup to personally contact me to help me out. None of that matters, Matthew. It's not about the CATS for Christ's sake. It's about Rhonda does not LIKE Phil. It's about Phil can be surly when he's annoyed. That is what really MATTERS. Get with the program, man. >>>But just telling me that I have a lot of research to do is somewhat >>>arrogant and condescending of you. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > coming from such a transparently self-inflating ego? > (snip) Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war buddy, who apparently didn't even have a cat, happened to be in a cat group and happened recognize Phil as his long-lost friend! Isn't that an incredible coincidence? And even more entertaining, they carried on their conversation about all of their tough-guy war stuff on the newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or 2-Gun, or something like that. What tough characters they were in those days (grin). I don't know if I was more dumb-founded because many people on the newsgroup actually believed this whole crazy thing, or if I was having too good of a time being entertained by the absurdity. As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello." Rhonda > Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you > should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rhonda That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean. Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this individual in the future. Though I will certainly continue to watch his activity, for sure. Thanks for the info. --tension ...> That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean. > Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this > individual in the future. Though I will certainly > continue to watch his activity, for sure. > Thanks for the info. > --tension (cross posted addresses snipped) Tension, I also remember when Phil and his Vietnam buddy appeared and engaged in a series of war stories. Once I saw the direction, I marked the threads to be ignored. I believe I killfiled the buddy and almost killfiled Phil. But, Phil started posting helpful and on-topic information and made available an immense source of information on his Web site. I especially remember his participation in the rescue of a cat from a shelter that would rather put the cat down then allow a participant from the group adopt it and take it to a vet for treatment. I remember when Phil volunteered to drive quite a distance to get another cat to the care it needed when the owner had given up on it. At one time, we had someone drop into the group to describe what appeared to be a serious eye infection and ask what to do, then proceeded to make up one excuse after another about why he could (would) not take the cat to a vet. Someone offered to pay the vet bill if the poster would pay it back by making something like $10 a month donations to a rescue organization. Phil chimed in to offer vouchers to be applied to the vet bill. The poster chose to treat his own cat and dropped out of the group. Phil, by-the-way, was civil to this person. While I believe that Phil's abrasive demeanor and personal insults to people is usually counterproductive, I respect his passion for cats and his willingness to share the information he has accumulated through experience and research. He tends to be sanctimonious and impatient with people who are just asking a question or challenging his information or his attitude. Sometimes people will bait him, and he invariably bites. When he gets in flame wars, I ignore the rest of the thread, which may cause me to miss something meaningful, but I don't have the time or inclination to follow these conversations. But. I know that Phil will always put the welfare of the cats first. I respect his opinion and have learned a lot from him and from others, who may or may not agree with him, in this group. Annie > ...> That's very interesting, Rhonda. Psychologically, I mean. >> Personally, I will probably limit the time I lose on this [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > respect his opinion and have learned a lot from him and from others, who > may or may not agree with him, in this group. Well, then. God has spoken. Annie's first post to h+b in years, and this is what interests her. Ugh. Though I will certainly > continue to watch his activity, for sure. A new hall monitor! lol! > Though I will certainly >> continue to watch his activity, for sure. > > A new hall monitor! lol! :) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you > should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > newsgroup and didn't take it to email. The friend's name was 6-Pack, or > 2-Gun, or something like that. Phoenix Rising. Phil xna-ed all of his posts from that time, but there is one where he supposedly "discovered" PR (quoted text): http://groups.google.com/group/alt.animals.felines/msg/55efc502a1e2da45?dmode=source > What tough characters they were in those > days (grin). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As the movie goes: "He lost me at hello." I think he was just off his meds. -L. -L-, Phoenix Rising, that was it! Wasn't one of their nicknames to each other 2-Gun or something like that? I just saw your post and I have to run, so will read it tonight. Thanks, Rhonda >>Tension, I don't know if it's all archived, but on a rainy day you >>should google how he dropped into the newsgroup. This fake Viet Nam war [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > -L. > -L-, Phoenix Rising |
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