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cat  vomiting

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waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 15:00 GMT
I have a 5  year old Tomcat.   He has  just returned  from the vet  and
I am anxious about the  advice and treatment received.  The vet is a
very experienced one, but not (I am afraid to say)    very
compassionate  (having supported actively,  the movement to continue
fox  and deer hunting in the UK)   The cat  is if anything a tiny bit
overweight but nothing like Obese. he is active and shows no signs of
ill health generally.  He shares my home with another  cat.

Both my cats have access  to the outdoors.  Both stay in at night from
dusk to early morning.

the  feeding routine is

Dry food always available, as well as water

1/4  tin per cat of tinned cat food  in the evening.  The food always
brings both cats scuttling indoors at quite a pace and they relish
feeding time

Neither cat appear to drink excessively.  If  anything I would say the
Tomcat does not drink enough (or at least I do not  often see him
drink.  He certainly is not  grabbing a chance  often to drink.  But
then I keep water inside and on the doorstep.

A week  ago, he was  sick after eating.   The next night he was sick
about 3  hours afterwards.

For almost the whole week he was fine again. He gets  stuck into his
food and several times  a day wanders into the hiuse for some  dried
food.    But this morning he was  sick.  Stomach contents looked
undigested from last night.

I took him to a vet.  It was not a nice experience.    He immediately
dressed me down for feeing  my cats dried food.   He looked  first in
his mouth and then suggested to me that the cats breath smelled as if
he had a kidney problem and asked me to smell.  But I could not
honestly say there was anything strong.

I had kept the cats vomit from this morning, in my  fridge sealed up in
a  bag .  But the vet was not interested to see it.

 He did not take any temperature nor consider blood tests.    Instead,
with the cat screaming in terror  and  with me holding him and he
injected him with Betamax.   When I said  what is that for, he said
"to make him better"   Hardly a reply which answers my  queries.    As
the cat struggled    the needle (still stuck in the cat)  became
disengaged  from the syringe and so he had to pull it out  and inject
him again.   He also did a lot of palpating, and told me the cat had
got  hard kidneys.

He also gave me some tablets  for a few days starting on saturday,    I
presume some antibiotics

I asked him for a specific  diagnosis but he was a bit vague and
talked about a possible infection.  But  this cat is  behaving
essentially  the same as always.

I am not sure about this advice concerning the dried food.   As the
animal appears better able to tolerate dried  food,  but not  tinned
food,  I am very sceptical

He has certainly not lost any weight

I am anxious that I have been put to a lot of worry about what probably
is not sufficient exploration to diagnose anything.  Perhaps the vet
just wants to scare me into changing to a  total wet food  diet and
issued  treatment to make me feel (a)  he is doing something  and (b)
that I am irresponsible feeding dried  food.

Here is the cat
http://members.lycos.co.uk/waweldragon5/BELLA01/page1.htm

and a few weeks  ago with his pal,   my other cat, the beautiful Kim

http://members.lycos.co.uk/waweldragon5/BELLSANDKIM.jpg

Thanks  very much   Andrew
cybercat - 14 Sep 2006 15:25 GMT
> 1/4  tin per cat of tinned cat food  in the evening.  The food always
> brings both cats scuttling indoors at quite a pace and they relish
> feeding time

While I would not return to that vet (would you use a contractor
to fix your house who you found this unpleasant?) he was right
about dry food. Canned is better for your cats for a number
of reasons I will let you Google up from this group. (We have
had endless discussions on food.)

> Neither cat appear to drink excessively.  If  anything I would say the
> Tomcat does not drink enough (or at least I do not  often see him
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> food.    But this morning he was  sick.  Stomach contents looked
> undigested from last night.

Do you mean the canned food? Because you free-feed him
dry food, so how can you tell when he ate it? One bad thing
about dry (this I know from feeding one of my cats on it
her whole life before I knew any better) is that it expands in
the stomach so that if they eat fast, they will hurl it. I think
some cats eat dry food fast for the same reasons some
people wolf "diet" this and "lowfat" that--they are trying
to obtain a satisfaction they are just NOT going to get from
what they are eating. Your cats need meat, not grain. Note
the relish you talk about above, when you feed them the
canned food at night.

Regarding throwing up: cats just do that. If it is a couple
of times every few days, I don't worry about it.

Regardiing your vet: get another.
waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 15:36 GMT
Hi Cybercat.   Thanks  for that.   Yep, he threw up  the  tinned food
only.   He  copes  fine  with dried  food when I  first had  him,  and
initially  I was  anxious  about  canned  food because hisprevious
owner  said  he (and his brother  cat)   did not  tolerate it well.
But I tentatively introduced  it and generally  successfully.    He
did used  sometimes to chuck up the dried  food  too,   Maybe  every
couple of months or so.

That vet scared  the hell out of me talking  about kidneys.  I had
gone thinking he might like to see  the vomit, to help in a  diagnosis.
And perhaps he might  run a blood test if he was thinking of something
systemic.

I heard of cases  whereby vets  ( and sometimes human doctors)   give
antibiotic injections  just to reassure  the humans .  I  HOPE thats
all it was here.   And I am not sure  I want to immediately  withdraw
dried  food when he has  chucked up the wet   3  times in the week.
But Yes,  I would consider a  transition to the tinned   and  do  that
incrementally  starting now.

> > 1/4  tin per cat of tinned cat food  in the evening.  The food always
> > brings both cats scuttling indoors at quite a pace and they relish
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Regardiing your vet: get another.
cybercat - 14 Sep 2006 15:46 GMT
> Hi Cybercat.   Thanks  for that.   Yep, he threw up  the  tinned food
> only.   He  copes  fine  with dried  food when I  first had  him,  and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> did used  sometimes to chuck up the dried  food  too,   Maybe  every
> couple of months or so.

You cat (assuming you can know how often he throws up, though how
can you when he goes out?) upchucks a lot less than mine, and they
are healthy. My first cat did it three times a week every week and lived
to be twenty with no health problems until her final illness.

> That vet scared  the hell out of me talking  about kidneys.  I had
> gone thinking he might like to see  the vomit, to help in a  diagnosis.
>  And perhaps he might  run a blood test if he was thinking of something
> systemic.

> I heard of cases  whereby vets  ( and sometimes human doctors)   give
> antibiotic injections  just to reassure  the humans .  I  HOPE thats
> all it was here.   And I am not sure  I want to immediately  withdraw
> dried  food when he has  chucked up the wet   3  times in the week.
> But Yes,  I would consider a  transition to the tinned   and  do  that
> incrementally  starting now.

You know, you sound like a very good and concerned pet guardian.
This vet sounds like an a.s. You paid him, right? Well then, you have
a right to know why he gave the cat what he gave him. I would call
him today and keep calling until I got the answers I wanted. You can
certainly be polite but persistant. I cannot believe how roughly he
treated your cat. Since he is pro-fox hunting, maybe he is one of
those idiots who sneer at "small animal" treatment? In any case,
I hope you will:

A. Get your questions answered (and lodge a complaint with the
vet board if he won't) and
B. Take your boy to another vet, one recommended by a friend.

You love this animal and need to put your mind at ease that you
know what is going on and are giving him the care he needs, from
a vet who cares what happens to him, you know?

For sure, if all that is wrong with him is the upchucking, I would
not worry too much.

Sorry you have had to go through this, that vet really is an a.s.
waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 16:05 GMT
Hi  Cybercat.  Thanks  very much for the replies.  I really  appreciate
it.   I  think you are right about that vets  approach to small
animals.  I  won;t  subject my animals  to him again ,   BTW,  opne
other almost unbeleivable detail.    In his  consulting room, he had
the  window open  (it is on the ground  floor)    Imagine my panicking
cat in that room.   I asked the vet to close the window, because if
either of us lost  a  grip on the cat out  he would have shot.

> > Hi Cybercat.   Thanks  for that.   Yep, he threw up  the  tinned food
> > only.   He  copes  fine  with dried  food when I  first had  him,  and
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Sorry you have had to go through this, that vet really is an a.s.
Buddy's Mom - 14 Sep 2006 19:53 GMT
Cats' breath smells different when they have furballs too.  Have you
thought of that?

Some cats eat too quickly and barf.

I agree with the others, you need a new vet.

> Hi  Cybercat.  Thanks  very much for the replies.  I really  appreciate
> it.   I  think you are right about that vets  approach to small
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> >
> > Sorry you have had to go through this, that vet really is an a.s.
waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 20:42 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion.  In fact I think the vet was making a big
thing of that smell issue.   I let the cat  (perhaps unwisely)  lick my
head quite  often and I never smell anything problematic.   I wish I
hadnt rushed  to that vet.  As a  result of his ordeal there with  that
semi botched  antibiotic injection  (of  dubious neccesity)  and rough
handling he is not having any food  this evening and is very subdued.
And as he is a nervy cat it was a catastrophe.   Tomorrow, I am keeping
the cat in for the first part of the day, and hopefully might observe
defamation and voiding   (sounds a bit strange perhaps)  but it seems
it might be worthwhile .   I  won't seek a 2nd opinion unless there is
any evident  cause for concern.   The 3  vomiting episodes  in an 8 day
period  with 5  days of no vomiting and normal eating was probably
premature for going to that psycho vet in the first place.

> Cats' breath smells different when they have furballs too.  Have you
> thought of that?
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> > >
> > > Sorry you have had to go through this, that vet really is an a.s.
cybercat - 14 Sep 2006 21:31 GMT
> Hi  Cybercat.  Thanks  very much for the replies.  I really  appreciate
> it.   I  think you are right about that vets  approach to small
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cat in that room.   I asked the vet to close the window, because if
> either of us lost  a  grip on the cat out  he would have shot.

Ohhh boy. He needs to be reported to the authorities. Or in the very
least, pass the word among other pet lovers you know.

The thing is, he was not only cruel to your cat but he was cruel to you.
To have a sick animal is one thing, but to take it to a vet and have him
act this way? Awful. And you PAID him.
waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 23:07 GMT
This is the text of my complaint which I am drafting.  I am trying to
be reasonable and firm

Complaint,  concerning consultation

Thursday, 14 September 2006

I am writing to both explain my complaint  and request your  response.
Before doing so, I must say I regret to write to anyone in these
terms.  Especially, as  I have received a very agreeable service from
your female colleagues, who showed  compassion to the animals I have
brought to your premises in the past.    I believe one might describe
your practice as a "no frills" one, in which the pluses are that
the local community has access to low cost vet care.  I continue to
recognise and admire  such an approach as it encourages more people to
seek care for their pets.    But my experience today has left me rather
shocked and shaken,  I feel I have no option but to spell out my
concerns, and ask for your prompt  response.

This afternoon I attended your surgery with my cat Bella.    I
explained the following

History    Approximately one week ago he was sick after his evening
meal of 1/4  tin of cat food.    The following night he was  sick but
only  after 3  hours.  For several days I was unaware of any further
vomiting in the evening or night.
Early this morning, he was  sick again.

I explained that  both of my cats eat 1/4  tin meat in the evening, and
the rest of the time have access to dried  food  and fresh water.

Examination   Prior to your physical examination of Bella, you sought
to advise me about the disadvantages of a dried food  diet.  You asked
about the other cat, whether or not she was experiencing similar
problems, which she was not.

You did not ask about his general medical history, nor enquire about
his vaccination or worming status.  You were unable to find any notes
in the system relating to him, although I had bought him previously and
received treatment.

You palpated his abdomen and suggested that I smell his breath, and
proposed the opinion that it was a clinical indication of a kidney
problem which you also claimed to identify from the palpation of the
kidneys.

You suggested that you would give him an injection and you asked me to
hold him which  did.   He was  certainly  distressed during your
examination and your handling was rough and attitude to the animal
detached and callous.   In administering the injection, he struggled
and cried  and during this your needle became detached from the
syringe.   As he struggled and  cried you removed the needle.

You stated you needed to repeat the process.  I was left to hold him
whilst you prepared a repeat attempt, and I noted the window in your
consultation room was wide open which in my view means your patients
could easily escape and become lost, injured or killed, as the surgery
is actually on a main road.  I asked you to close the window and you
muttered something about not being concerned with the window but
worried about the cat.  However you  did  close the window,  and then I
asked you what was the particular function of the drug being
administered.  You retorted that it was "to make him better"
This was a patronising response to a legitimate question from a
concerned owner.   It should have been obvious I wanted to know exactly
what you were treating,  what was the strategy.     During the
injection and as  the cat struggled and cried, you were urging it to
shut up and be quiet.  This was an absolutely incredible way to behave.

I had bought with me,  a bag containing the vomit  which the cat
produced in the early morning and which I had kept in a refrigerator.
I had  thought it might be relevant for you to see and thought I was
acting as a responsible owner.     But you said

" I have no need to see some cats vomit  please put it in the bin."

It struck me as somewhat dismissive.  I considered it to be one element
which might assist you in diagnosis.

Having administered this injection you provided some tablets in a
envelope on which you wrote the dose.  There was no note on the
envelope describing the name of the drug,  and you did not describe it
specifically.   I can only assume it was an oral antibiotic.

My complaints in summary are as follows

1.   Your handling of the cat was  rough and lacked any attempt to show
compassion for the animal, or for me, the customer and owner.   It
ought to be evident that the owner/customer is anxious about their
pet's health, and  that requires both frankness  with a
compassionate approach.

2.  This was aggravated and illustrated by the fact that the
examination room was not a secure environment, regarding the wide open
window.    It ought to be obvious that felines are fast and dexterous
in the matter of escape.    I could hardly believe that a vet with
decades of practice  would leave his consultation area so vulnerable.

3.   You  conclusions  concerning kidney problems were ambiguous are
not well supported by the history.  There were no complaints of
excessive drinking, nor of loss of weight.  The vomiting was not
consistent or prolonged.  You had not proposed other  diagnostic tests
in relation to that.   And you did not ask about parasites,
preventative or therapeutic treatment for such,  and you actively
declined to examine the vomitus.

You did not listen to the animals chest, nor take his temperature.

Furthermore,  since returning home  following an essentially arbitrary
dosage of intravenous antibiotic   ( no attempt being made to assess
the actual amount administered, you just drew  another dose and started
again)   Bella has been more lethargic than I have ever known.  In
fact he could hardly walk.

4.  It is clear that your record keeping and prescription notation
leaves a great deal to be desired.  Cash is handed over, no receipts
are provided.  Tablets are issued in envelopes without any drug name
written.   How can this be competent practice,  ?

I  wish to secure your response to my complaint  without delay.  I am
deeply concerned about this.

Yours  sincerely,

> > Hi  Cybercat.  Thanks  very much for the replies.  I really  appreciate
> > it.   I  think you are right about that vets  approach to small
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> To have a sick animal is one thing, but to take it to a vet and have him
> act this way? Awful. And you PAID him.
cybercat - 15 Sep 2006 02:35 GMT
> This is the text of my complaint which I am drafting.  I am trying to
> be reasonable and firm
>
> Complaint,  concerning consultation
>
> Thursday, 14 September 2006

[snips great letter]

I think this is very good. Your concern comes through, and you
refrain from showing anger, which I would find hard to do under
the circumstances.

However, It seems to me that anyone callous enough to  behave as
he did will be callous enough to ignore your letter. If he does, or
if you find his response unsatisfactory, I hope you will forward
the letter to your regional veterinary board. (I especially liked
your last line, letting him know that you expect a response
and soon. It was just enough to let him know  you mean
business. But do follow up. He needs to learn that he cannot
treat his patients or their humans this way.

Let us know how it turns out.
cybercat - 14 Sep 2006 15:29 GMT
> Both my cats have access  to the outdoors.  Both stay in at night from
> dusk to early morning.

One last thought: while I realize that you live in the UK and so the mere
thought of keeping your cats indoors where they are safe is probably
repugnant to you, the fact is, you cannot have any idea what your cats are
ingesting when you allow them to roam unsupervised. Neighbors poisoning
voles, mice, or rats? Using insecticides on their gardens or grass?
waweldragon@tiscali.co.uk - 14 Sep 2006 15:59 GMT
> > Both my cats have access  to the outdoors.  Both stay in at night from
> > dusk to early morning.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ingesting when you allow them to roam unsupervised. Neighbors poisoning
> voles, mice, or rats? Using insecticides on their gardens or grass?

It isnt repugnant to me.  But these  cats were  both raised  as outdoor
cats by their previous owners.    It isnt on a main road.  Both are
neutered  and never bring back  prey. I realise there is a  risk
involved in having an outdoor cat.  Thankfully, my neighbors dont
bother with their gardens
RobZip - 14 Sep 2006 16:24 GMT
> I took him to a vet.  It was not a nice experience.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> disengaged  from the syringe and so he had to pull it out  and inject
> him again.

It sounds like shopping around for a new vet would be in order here. Such a
lack of compassion may just cause him to overlook something essential in a
more critical care situation.
Rhonda - 14 Sep 2006 18:05 GMT
I'll echo cc -- I would find a different vet. I wouldn't trust a vet who
"smells" for a problem but does not do any tests. He was far too vague.

Cats can develop food allergies, although many times it is to a grain
like wheat or corn in the food. When our cat had suspected food
allergies we had to use a prescription allergy food that had very few
ingredients -- and one odd protein (like duck or venison) and one odd
starch (like peas.)

I would start off with another vet though, and make sure there is
nothing poisonous in the garden. Maybe you know this but lilies are a
killer of cats, even a little bit of the pollen.

Good luck,

Rhonda

> I have a 5  year old Tomcat.   He has  just returned  from the vet  and
> I am anxious about the  advice and treatment received.

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