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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2004Cat confined for the sake of another
I have a cat that has been confined to either my windowed half-basement or a bedroom of his own ever since last August. He was a stray cat that I finally accepted and had neutered because he wouldn't go away, and he had started marking his territory. He stopped the marking, and was/is devoted to me, but he would not stop manacing one of my male cats, whom he was driving farther and farther from the house. My cats are all indoor/outdoor, coming and going as they please, except the confined one. I let him out one afternoon a few weeks ago, but he went right back to stalking the same cat as before, who screams and runs from him. With my other male cat, age seven months, there's no problem, because I have been letting the kitten have long daily visits with him for months, and they are friends. The kitten is also friends with the male who is menaced. My female cat has no problem with the former stray because she is dominant over him. I would love to let the confined cat go free, but just don't see any way to stop his aggressiveness toward one cat. With me, by the way, he is great, wanting to be near me almost all the time. I visit him often, and sleep with him, but he isn't happy being confined unless either the young cat or I are with him. Is there any way out of this situation? Calvin Rice > I have a cat that has been confined to either my windowed half-basement or > a bedroom of his own ever since last August. He was a stray cat that I [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Calvin Rice When you let him out with the other cat, can you distract him from his stalking with food or play? I was thinking you could graaaadually wean him from this behaviour by starting the distraction the moment he starts stalking. I do not have the severe problem you have, but this method has really, really helped with one of my cats that annoys another one. The minute the distraction no longer works, then time out is necessary. it's gotten so that I can actually just put her in the bedroom and not even close the door, but she stays in there and cools off on her own. It may take quite a while, but it seems like this kind of desensitization, as it were, should work. Karen > When you let him out with the other cat, can you distract him from his > stalking with food or play? I was thinking you could graaaadually wean him [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a while, but it seems like this kind of desensitization, as it were, should > work. Thank you. I will try what you say, starting tomorrow afternoon. I'll plan some distractions ahead of time, and be ready when he starts the stalking. -cr In the end, the two cats are going to have to work it out and the confinement is only delaying the inevitable. Upsetting as the bullying behavior is to witness, it is unlikely that it will go on forever, or that one cat will genuinely hurt each other. But you aren't giving them a chance to settle their hierarchial issues once and for all. You will need to let them confront each other periodically. Do it when you're around for a fairly short period of time and pick a space that each cat can escape from. Expect a lot of hissing, stalking, chasing and maybe some wrestling. You can try sharply clapping your hands to see if that deters an attack, but other wise don't interfere. Slowly make the sessions a little more frequent and a little longer. You can try it unsupervised (still inside) after 5-10 sessions and the cats have gotten used to the idea that they are forced to be in proximity to each other periodically. After a few sessions, they should be able to coexist with only occaisional bouts of hostility and you can slowly reintroduce the outdoors. They will probably always chase and stalk each other and they may well have regular spats, but that isn't necessarily the end of the world. But they will learn how to live together. > In the end, the two cats are going to have to work it out and the > confinement is only delaying the inevitable. Upsetting as the bullying [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > necessarily the end of the world. But they will learn how to live > together. This is NOT standard advice and if hostile confrontations can be avoided, it is better for all. Karen > In the end, the two cats are going to have to work it out and the > confinement is only delaying the inevitable. Upsetting as the bullying > behavior is to witness, it is unlikely that it will go on forever, or > that one cat will genuinely hurt each other. But you aren't giving > them a chance to settle their hierarchial issues once and for all. > You will need to let them confront each other periodically. Do it when > you're around for a fairly short period of time and pick a space that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > necessarily the end of the world. But they will learn how to live > together. Essentially I tried this last year. The effect was to drive my two male cats, one of which has been missing since the day after I confined the bully, farther and farther away from the house. I could not, and cannot stand having my happy home ruined by a stray. So confining was the only answer I could think of. I know the difference between friendly cat play, chasing, wrestling, etc, which I love and encourage, and this horrible behaviour, which is a nightmare. I will confine this cat for the rest of its life if necessary, rather than let him spoil the other cat's home. After the former stray cat was neutered, he lived with us as free as the other cats for two and a half months. But the problem of him menacing the other males got steadily worse, and finally intolerable. -cr > Essentially I tried this last year. The effect was to drive my two male > cats, one of which has been missing since the day after I confined the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >But the problem of him menacing > the other males got steadily worse, and finally intolerable. Without knowing your level of attachment to the stray, I have to ask this.... Considering the disruption to your other cat, and the limited possibility the stray will integrate well into the household, would you consider re-homing him to a setting where he is the only cat? Some cats have this extreme drive to be the alpha animal. Perhaps this is one who would be better off not only as king of the hill but as the solitary resident. > > Essentially I tried this last year. The effect was to drive my two male > > cats, one of which has been missing since the day after I confined the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Without knowing your level of attachment to the stray, I have to ask > this.... How attached would you be to a cat you had had for at least a year? What a stupid suggestion. Better that he live separated from the others than be out of a home again. Surely someone can offer a better solution than this. (I can't, as I have never had this problem. I have never had a male cat.) > How attached would you be to a cat you had had for at least > a year? Obviously I'd have some attachment to the cat. I'd also have attachent to the others in my household. It would become a question of what is *really* best for the one that just can't seem to find a way to fit in without disruption. >What a stupid suggestion Stupid is it? I've known of a few instances where such a situation was resolved by placing the miscreant in a more suitable home environment. ( example - surviving feline of a deceased elderly owner taken in to a multi cat household. He simply wouldn't have it any other way except to be the sole creature in residence. A local vet helped find someone who took him in and it worked out great for all concerned.) Just because the owner loves the animal and has gone to great lengths to work things out does not by default make his situation the only choice. >Better that he live separated > from the others than be out of a home again. Read again Mary... I did not advocate throwing the cat out. Re-homing is just that - doing your best to find a home where the animal fits well. In this case, it is unlikely that this particular male will ever fit well in a multi-cat household. A situation where he will be the only cat is probably best. Is it really better to live separated, at times isolated than to move into a setting that better fits his liking? Surely the owner is attached but is that the only factor one must consider? Sometimes we just have to rise above our own feelings and consider all elements in a situation - i.e the stress of the other feline residents, the frustration of the owner seeing his house divided, and knowing this dominant animal has a lot of love to give under the proper circumstances. The owner in this situation has no cause to feel failure - he's done more for the stray than most would have. >Surely someone can offer a better solution than this. (I can't, as I have never > had this problem. I have never had a male cat.) It's not unique to males but far more prevalent. I had a female once who was so dominantly alpha that any other cat was forever the enemy. Forget her having a roomie - wasn't gonna happen. Individually, she was the sweetest most attentive cat companion one could have. Show the slightest bit of affection to an interloping stray and she was an insufferable bitch - to the stray and myself for a day or so afterwards. circa Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:08:34 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, RobZip (robzip.takethisout@eudoramail.com) said, > In > this case, it is unlikely that this particular male will ever fit well in a > multi-cat household That is not yet known. Laura  SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > circa Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:08:34 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > RobZip (robzip.takethisout@eudoramail.com) said, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > That is not yet known. Consider the following: 1. The reported behavior has been going on since last August - now entering the 9th month according to Calvin. Everyone knows who each other is by now. The pecking order seems to be somewhat established although subject to change as the younger male matures. 2. The aggression seems directed towards one particular male in his household. The stray is accepting of a younger male and submissive to a dominant female. There hasn't been any long term period of open association with all the felines in residence. What really isn't known is if the acceptance of the younger male will continue once he reaches maturity. At that point you could have the stray in conflict with both males and the dominant female aligning with them. Then what? At this point it becomes a matter of accepting that things are probably as good as they are ever going to be. Is that preferable to looking at alternative placement? I'm not saying that my suggestion is the ultimate final outcome - merely something to consider. circa Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:50:12 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, RobZip (robzip.takethisout@eudoramail.com) said, > > > In > > > this case, it is unlikely that this particular male will ever fit well [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > alternative placement? I'm not saying that my suggestion is the ultimate > final outcome - merely something to consider. And all I'm saying is that behavior modification and gradual introduction have not yet been fully explored, so we do not yet know that rehoming is the only alternative. I'm not saying that it's impossible that the cats will never coexist genially or even tolerably. I'm simply saying that until other approaches are tried and fail, then we cannot say that it is unlikely that the cat will ever fit into the household. My Alex was a big bastard sumbitch for well over the first year I had him. He was euthanized last August at age fourteen- thirteen years after I first got him. That means that there were more than eleven years of him "fitting in" to my household. Hell, Camille still mourns for him and had an enormous crush on him even though he'd bat her every time she got close enough for him to do so. She sleeps in "his" cat bed regularly even after eight months without him. When he was alive, no other cat slept in that bed, but whenever Alex was in it, Camille was nearby, creeping slowly closer to him to try to snuggle with him. Once in a blue moon when they'd be on my bed, he'd actually let her get close enough to touch him with a paw or to nudge up against his side. Even though ninety-nine times out of a hundred, she'd get biffed when she got too close, she would only cringe and move back a couple of inches. She wouldn't run away because she loved to be near him. Alex would also wallop Oscar's butt if Oscar was poking him, but it didn't stop Oscar from getting a wild hair and rushing up to "play" with Alex. The only cat I ever had with Alex who rarely crossed paws with him is Jacob, and that's because Jacob is not only the most dominant of my cats (albeit the smallest), but Jacob and Alex developed a truce wherein each just left the other alone. The only time Jacob would haul off on Alex was when Alex was going after one of the other cats and Jacob felt it had gone on for too long. Then he'd rush up at Alex with a little yowl and Alex would immediately put his paw down, turn and stalk away. Five minutes later, they'd all be curled back up in whatever places they'd been in before the tiff began. By the time Alex died, there were *no* real fights between the cats, just a settled routine of one cat getting into Alex's space, Alex delivering a swat and a hiss and the other cat backing off. Alex was a cat who probably was suited to be the only cat in a household, but he lived a fairly long and very, very happy life in a multi-cat home. On the day that I brought Alex home from the Humane Society, he leaped from my arms as I was carrying him up the stairs and *violently* attacked the entire group of existing cats. There was a huge, squalling ball of six cats rolling around my living room for a minute and it looked like one of those cartoon cat fights. I was horrified and when his behavior remained that aggressive for some time, I feared that he would never settle in to my household. Gradually, however, he did, and there was never another fight like that first one. I have no doubt that this was partly due to the fact that as soon as I saw signs of aggression and impending attack on one of the other cats, I would distract Alex, usually by playing with him. It spent his overflowing energy, and it spared the other cats. Some cats simply have extra aggression that needs to be released; with Alex, he *had* to have a daily session of what was rather rough play to keep him mellow. I always knew it was time for a duke out when he'd arch his back and tail and charge sideways towards me, or whap my ankle with a lightning-fast [hard] swipe as I was walking by. I'd turn back to him and hover my hand over his head, making as if I were going to grab it like a softball (and that's how big his head was). I'd wave my hand around, tweak his whiskers, touch his ear with a finger, and he'd make low growling sounds in his throat, then suddenly pounce at my hand and flail at it with his paws. The entire time, however, his whiskers and ears were *forward*- he was *playing*, not angry. If he ever got so wound up that he was starting to feel real aggression, he'd hiss, turn his back and walk away. He learned to vent his aggression by playing with me, and when he wasn't looking to expend that energy, he was a truly affectionate cat. Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. Good luck, then. I can't quite see how you're going to do anything else but confine one cat for the rest of it's life if you aren't willing to let them work it out in a supervised, controlled environment. Sometimes it does take many months before cats get their issues sorted out. It may take longer now that the cats have been seperated for so long and the resident cat has "won" by getting the newcomer locked up all day everyday. It's possible that the stray has such hostility problems that he can't live with another cat, but your description of pouncing and screaming and the fact that the cat gets along fine with the kitten doesn't really indicate a hopelessly hostile cat to me. I've seen introductions that take 6 months to a year to settle down between adult cats. It is hard to go through, but I don't see much of an alternative here. Just don't let both cats outdoors at the same time until they can coexist in the house. The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker. The confined cat is loved and nurtured. I sleep with him, feed him three times a day, change his water and dry food dish, clean his litter box, let the young one come in to visit. I don't hold his behavior against him. It's his nature, not his choice. He's a great cat with people, and he's devoted to me, even though I keep him confined. During the two and a half months after I had him neutered, he mostly stayed with me wherever I went, and would move from one side of the room to another just to say close to me. But during that period of his freedom he became more and more determined to keep the other male cats away, and he drove them away from their usual places on the porch and in the yard, until they were keeping their distance and I was taking their food out to them. Then I confined him, and coincidentally or not, that day was the last I ever saw of one of my males, who disappeared after he was fed the evening meal. Yesterday I tried again to see if I could keep the former stray, whose name is Thug, away from my black male, whose name is Willie. So I let him out, and for a while everything was ok, except that Willie would not follow me around the yard with Thug there. He just kept his distance. After a while Thug started paying more attention to Willie, and would start in his direction, but I would stop him, and distract him with something or other. But this only worked for a while. Eventually Thug became determined to get past me and approach Willie, and did so. Willie started growling, as usual, and when Thug came withing 10 feet, Willie ran off into a wooded area, with Thug chasing him. Willie got away, and I managed to catch Thug and take him back to his room. But I don't think he understands the reason why he was confined again. A couple of hours later Willie reappeared, and seemed back to normal. All that was a repeat of the way it is now, whenever I let Thug out, which I've only done twice, and the way things were last summer. Thug seems to react to Willie the way a bull, if one believes the stereotype, reacts to seeing red. Usually last summer Willie would try to stand his ground, but when Thug got too close he would scream and run away. Thug is not an especially pretty cat. He has a handsome face, but he's a grey and black tabby whose body is a bit small in relation to his head size. Maybe that's because he wasn't able to find enough to eat while he was growing up. I don't know his history. I'm not sure anyone else would want him, but I would give him up, even though I'm attached to him, if it would give him a better life. Pictures of my cats, except Thug, are at http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crcats.html I'll try to get a picture of Thug there later today. Calvin Rice You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. Karen > The cat who screams and runs away is the one who is menaced, not the stalker. > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Calvin Rice > You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this > exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, > Thug will recognize instantly why he is sequestered again. I would have to confine Willie inside to expose them to each other inside, otherwise he would simply run outside at first sight of Thug. Willie has never been confined inside. He has always been free to go in and out as he pleases. I don't let the cats in and out. They always have a way to go in and out without having to ask. Of course I could confine him, but it would be like a betrayal of his trust. -cr >> You talk about this as them beign exposed outside. Don't you ever try this >> exposure INside? It would be much smarter to aclimate them inside. That way, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -cr I think it would be much harder to acclimate them in an uncontrolled environment. YMMV. karen Hiya Calvin - Yes, I got that Willie was the one who was running away and screaming If you can find an alternate home for Thug then yes that might be a solution. I am however sanguine about the difficulties of re-homing adult cats, especially "not particularly pretty ones". It's no small task. I really didn't mean to imply that Thug was being mistreated. I do think, however, that it's not ideal being confined and that it is definitely hard on the human who has to chop themselves up in pieces to attend to all the cats. And you wouldn't be writing if it wasn't a problem, right? Introducing unrelated adult cats is really hard. My two were introduced as year and 3/4 females and it was six weeks before there was a modicum of peace in the house and I had pretty much lost my mind. I thought it was hopeless, but they are now reasonably companionable and while they still wrestle and bash each over the head daily, it's *mostly* in fun. But yes, the first cat who has ended up the dominant one terrorized the new cat for quite a while. I did keep them seperated for chunks of time (like sleeping), but also gave them increasing chunks of time together - ending it when the fighting broke out and then trying again later. Why are you putting them together outside instead of inside? Outside IME is the biggest bone of contention. Can you try releasing them together inside - maybe 2 or 3 attached rooms with some safe hiding places? Then back to seperation again for a while. Do you think they'll really hurt one another? If you give Willie an escape hatch, he should be able to get away when he has to. Don't do it every day, just periodically a few times a week and keep everything else normal. You may find that they will eventually stop the pattern in that space only and work out what is permissable. You have to realize that they can't talk and that they are defining boundaries for each other by attacking. If over a period of time, they can work out brief periods of co-existence in the same area of your house, then there is hope. Just don't rush the outside stuff. Let Willie have outside as his kingdom for now and see if he can share the inside with Thug from time to time. (You can install a magentized cat door to keep Thug inside, if necessary). Getting him free range inside the house would make things alot easier on everybody. And if relative peace reigns for a long time, then you can slowly work on the outside problem. Male cats in nature *don't* share their territories with other adult male cats, so Thug is just trying to chase off the reigning king so he can rule the roost. You're the one who has to convince them that they're both staying so they might as well get used to it. Give Willie lots and lots of extra attention after the sessions are over and tell him that he'll always be your cat. And ignore Thug right afterwards so he can see that you're not going to favor him over Willie. Try feeding them in the same area of the house with really yummy stuff. If they'll chow down on canned tuna within eyesight of each other - then you're halfway there. Figure the timeline is 6 more months and then evaluate where you are. If you can't get the inside detente in that period of time, then you probably never will. But I think you'll see a lot of progress and they'll have enough of an understanding between them to make mutual outdoor access possible at that point. Sure, it's a long time. But getting cats to overcome their instinctual behavior is not a quick-snap process. Keeping them permanently seperated is giving them hope that they won't have to live together after all. No cat likes change and this sort of change is always going to strike them as an unmitigated bad and unnatural thing. It's only through repeated exposure to each other that they can learn that it isn't the end of the world as they know it.I just don't know of anyway past it except "through". >I would have to confine Willie inside to expose them to each other inside, >otherwise he would simply run outside at first sight of Thug. Willie has >never been confined inside. He has always been free to go in and out as he >pleases. I don't let the cats in and out. They always have a way to go >in and out without having to ask. >Of course I could confine him, but it would be like a betrayal of his >trust This just appeared on my reader so..... I had assumed that Willie spent a certain amount of time in the house with the door closed - didn't realize he was a 24/7 outdoor cat. Mine come inside at night and stay inside till morning. I can see why you're having a problem - neither wants another adult male cat around and you don't have much control over their environment. Basically, you can't force them to deal with each other until they arrive at a detente unless you're in a controlled environment. The point of an introduction is that neither cat *can* drive the other cat away, as much as they'd like to. If they actually *can* drive the other cat away from the house, then there isn't much incentive to work things out and they won't. You have to decide if keeping Thug is worth putting Willie through the introduction process - INSIDE. You do it as kindly as you can, but there really isn't any other way. It isn't going to happen outside and Willie runs risks if he is driven too far from his familiar territory. Yes, it's hard to confine a cat who isn't used to it, but things have changed, and for the longterm health and survival of both cats, it would certainly be better if they could learn to tolerate each other. I don't think it's impossible, but it will take alot of time and probably a fair bit of discomfort for Willie and for you. I wish there was a better answer, but I don't see how else it can be done. I appreciate all of the time and effort that went into these thoughtful responses, and I know of nothing that can refute your advice. I will try to plan some inside confrontations, but I'm very afraid of the temporary results, even if the long term results work out to being good. I already know how hard it is to have a little kitten accepted, for example. I've introduced new tiny kittens three times, and every time the cat(s) reacted as if I had brought a grave threat into their midst. But within a matter of weeks the kitten is always grudgingly tolerated by my female, and accepted as a buddy by the other male(s). That was what I was expecting after I had the former stray neutered and let him live among us. I thought they would get used to him in a matter of weeks, but I never expected him to be the one who couldn't accept one or more of them. Of course I was just naive. One piece of advice I was given last year was to put Feliway diffusers in the house, and confine the two to a Feliway environment until they got used to each other. I haven't tried this, but I thought maybe if I put a Feliway diffuser in Thug's room, and in the hallway outside his room, maybe I could simply temporarily confine Willie to the hallway, and then coax him into the room, while supposedly both cats are under the calming influence that Feliway is thought to have. Does this alternative seem at all feasible? -cr > I appreciate all of the time and effort that went into these thoughtful > responses, and I know of nothing that can refute your advice. I will [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -cr Feliway isn't a silver bullet but it can help. W Yes, it seems feasible. Do this periodically for a while and see if you see some progress. Good luck! |
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