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Mike - 03 Apr 2004 12:06 GMT

I'd like to educate myself more on FLUTD/FUS. The problem is that I
can't seem to find the answers to these questions. Does anyone know
the answers or would like to add their own comments?

Are some breeds of cats more likely to get the oxalate crystals than
the struvite crystals? If so, anyone know what breeds?

Why is it that if a cat eats just as much or more canned food than dry
food that it can still develop crystals? People always act like
feeding a cat canned food will prevent crystals but it doesn't. Are
there any reasons why it doesn't?

If a cat's drinking water has a lot of calcium in it, could that
possibly contribute or even cause a cat to develop oxalate crystals?

Why do veterinarians tend to prescribe the Hill's s/d food for cats
with urinary problems (possibly crystals) if they don't yet know what
kind of crystals they are? Wouldn't feeding a cat with oxalate
crystals the s/d food make the problem worse?

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Karen Chuplis - 03 Apr 2004 15:17 GMT

> I'd like to educate myself more on FLUTD/FUS. The problem is that I
> can't seem to find the answers to these questions. Does anyone know
> the answers or would like to add their own comments?
>
> Are some breeds of cats more likely to get the oxalate crystals than
> the struvite crystals? If so, anyone know what breeds?

Never heard of any particular breed that is suseptible.

> Why is it that if a cat eats just as much or more canned food than dry
> food that it can still develop crystals? People always act like
> feeding a cat canned food will prevent crystals but it doesn't. Are
> there any reasons why it doesn't?

Lots of water does help. Quality of tinned food is most likely a key factor.

> If a cat's drinking water has a lot of calcium in it, could that
> possibly contribute or even cause a cat to develop oxalate crystals?

I have never seen a study on that. One could buy bottled water just to be
sure.

> Why do veterinarians tend to prescribe the Hill's s/d food for cats
> with urinary problems (possibly crystals) if they don't yet know what
> kind of crystals they are? Wouldn't feeding a cat with oxalate
> crystals the s/d food make the problem worse?

The vet *should* test the urine and not just guess. From what I understand,
the problem with calcium based oxalate crystals did not seem prevelant until
low pH foods came around (*this* I did see a study on somewhere, sorry can't
remember artcile). Most common is struvite.

Karen

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Steve Crane - 03 Apr 2004 18:51 GMT

Yes, Persian, Burmese, Himalayan are more prone to CaOx formation than other
breeds. In addition, as cats age, the risks change. Younger cats from 1-6
are more prone to Struvite, after age 7 cats are more likley to form CaOx
than struvite.

Cats that eat canned foods excrete the majority of the water in the urine.
This greatly dilutes the urine and thus reduces the risk of crystal
formation. Cats which eat dry foods and drink an equal amount of free water
as the cats ingesting water in canned foods, will excrete the majority of
the water in the feces. Thus the dilution of the urine will decrease and
crystal formation is more likely. Canned foods alone cannot "cure" crystal
formation. Excessive levels of calcium, magnesium, and phosphates in a
canned diet can overcome the dilution factor provided by a canned food.

> If a cat's drinking water has a lot of calcium in it, could that
> possibly contribute or even cause a cat to develop oxalate crystals?

It is unlikely that the water would have enough calcium in it to have any
real consequences. The amount of calcium a cat ingests from the foods it
eats is vastly greater than any tiny amounts that might be in the water. On
the other hand it is possible, but quite rare to have drinking water with
high enough levels of magnesium to affect struvite forming cats. It's an
issue of scale, calcium in a food can range from 0.64% to 1.2%, whereas
magnesium in a food ranges from 0.064% to 0.1%, nearly a ten fold value.
Thus smaller amounts of magnesium in the water can rarely be a problem.

The formation of a calcium oxalate crystal does not occur overnight. If the
vet finds a stone, either by palpation or x-ray, they will prescribe s/d and
then watch the stone. If it begins to dissolve they continue to feed s/d. If
it maintains its' size or shows any growth over a months period of time then
they can assume the stone is non-struvite and plan on surgery. s/d can
indeed cause the formation and growth of CaOx stones, however that process
is not something that happens overnight, it takes considerable time. The use
of s/d to diagnose the stone (in the absence of crystals in the urine for
diagnosis) is a valuable way to determine the type of stone. If the stone is
indeed CaOx then leaving the cat on s/d would certainly be contraindicated.
Because of the urine pH that s/d creates (5.9-6.1) it should not be fed for
more than 6 months at a time.

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Mike - 04 Apr 2004 01:44 GMT

Thanks to everyone who replied. Your answers were all very helpful. I
have a few final questions.
If a veterinarian prescribes s/d dry food for possible struvite
crystals, shouldn't canned food also be fed to the cat? What if a cat
won't eat the s/d canned food? Is it ok to feed it regular canned food
and just add a little water to it in addition to the s/d dry? I would
think any canned food would be better than no canned food at all.

> > I'd like to educate myself more on FLUTD/FUS. The problem is that I
> > can't seem to find the answers to these questions. Does anyone know
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> Because of the urine pH that s/d creates (5.9-6.1) it should not be fed for
> more than 6 months at a time.

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eodemolay - 04 Apr 2004 05:42 GMT

> Thanks to everyone who replied. Your answers were all very helpful. I
> have a few final questions.

> If a veterinarian prescribes s/d dry food for possible struvite
> crystals, shouldn't canned food also be fed to the cat?

Not necessarily. In many cases the cat may already prefer dry food, or the
veterinarian may have additional reasons for peferring a dry version of s/d.

> What if a cat
> won't eat the s/d canned food? Is it ok to feed it regular canned food
> and just add a little water to it in addition to the s/d dry?

No, it's a great deal more complicated than simply switching to a canned
food. Adding any other foods except the food prescribed may completely alter
the activity of the food. Adding only 10% canned food to the diet could
boost the magnesium, calcium or phosphates enough to negate the purpose of
the food entirely.

> I would
> think any canned food would be better than no canned food at all.

No, if the cat is eating the dry s/d without a problem adding "any" canned
food could seriously alter the net chemistry involved. If you wish to add
canned food - then add the canned version of s/d. Before you make any
decision you should consult with your veterinarian. Only s/he has actually
seen your cat and can make legitimate and appropriate recommendations.

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Mike - 05 Apr 2004 05:56 GMT

I have just a few more questions and I apologize for having more
questions than I thought I would.

If a cat has had an urinalysis done, is it possible that it wouldn't
show crystals even if the cat has them?
Can a cat have crystals and not stones?
Shouldn't a urinalysis show the cat's urine pH? If a cat has oxalate
stones wouldn't the urinalysis show that the urine pH is acidic?

I've been talking to my cousin whose cat is having urinary problems so
he's been asking me for advice. His vet didn't run any tests or
anything on the cat and just prescribed the s/d food and said to come
back in 4 months to see if the cat was better. Does that seem weird to
anyone else?

The vet I take my cat to did three urinalysis within a month and
prescribed an antibiotic. After a month, since nothing was helping, an
x-ray was done and the vet said the cat had stones. The s/d food was
prescribed and a month later another x-ray was done. Nothing had
changed on the x-ray and the stones were still there so surgery was
done to remove them. The doctor had them sent to be analyzed and
confirmed that they were oxalate stones.

So all of this has brought up questions. It seems that the first vet
isn't handling this properly and a second opinion is in order.
The vet I took my cat to makes me wonder about the urinalysis. It
seems like it should've shown that the urine was acidic since he had
the oxalate stones.

Or maybe I'm just overreacting. A veterinarian I used to take my cats
to lied about the health of one of my cat's and it took years off the
cat's life. The vet I'm currently taking my cat to makes me wonder
about his judgment. So I just don't know what to believe anymore.

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eodemolay - 06 Apr 2004 00:23 GMT

> I have just a few more questions and I apologize for having more
> questions than I thought I would.
>
> If a cat has had an urinalysis done, is it possible that it wouldn't
> show crystals even if the cat has them?

Yes. It also possible for a urinalysis to show crystals that aren't present
as well. This usually happens when a clinic lets urine stand too long
without getting it under the scope. Gvien enough time any urine will
crystalize.

> Can a cat have crystals and not stones?

Very common

> Shouldn't a urinalysis show the cat's urine pH?

Normally it is part of the process.

> If a cat has oxalate stones wouldn't the urinalysis show that the urine pH

is acidic?

Most of the time in CaOx formers the urine pH will be too acidic, ranging in
the 5.9-6.1 range or perhaps even lower. The possibility of error here is
that the cat formed the CaOx crystasls on one food, the owner swtiched foods
to a food with a more normal pH, yet the stone is still present.

> I've been talking to my cousin whose cat is having urinary problems so
> he's been asking me for advice. His vet didn't run any tests or
> anything on the cat and just prescribed the s/d food and said to come
> back in 4 months to see if the cat was better. Does that seem weird to
> anyone else?

> The vet I take my cat to did three urinalysis within a month and
> prescribed an antibiotic. After a month, since nothing was helping, an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> seems like it should've shown that the urine was acidic since he had
> the oxalate stones.

Most of the time - I hate to keep repeating that phrase "most of the time"
but he reality is that there isn't a hard fast rule. Most of the time cats
with CaOX stones will have be found to have urine pH <6.2 pH.

> Or maybe I'm just overreacting. A veterinarian I used to take my cats
> to lied about the health of one of my cat's and it took years off the
> cat's life. The vet I'm currently taking my cat to makes me wonder
> about his judgment. So I just don't know what to believe anymore.

I've worked with literally thousands of vets. By and large they are
extraordinary people who work very hard for half the money your dental
hygienist makes. I wouldn't judge them all by the poor experience you had
with one. Over 20 years of dealing directly face to face with thousands of
vets and I can only think of half a dozen jerks I wouldn't let treat my dead
turtle. The rest were sincere and caring people who really try very hard.

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