Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2004
Opinions on fatty liver/possible pancreatitis problem
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Underwood - 04 Apr 2004 07:58 GMT We have a 6 yr old tabby who was recently introduced (February) to a new member of the house, a maine coon mix from the local shelter. He brought what appeared to be a cold home with him, which he transmitted to Pnut. During most of February, she was dealing with the effects of the cold or upper respiratory infection. The new cat completely recovered and is fine now, and never had a problem to begin with.
In early March, we noticed Pnut was looking rather grim. We started trying to take stock of when she was eating, and couldn't determine if she was in fact eating sufficiently. After a week of moping around and looking rotten, we took her to the vet on March 19. The vet diagnosed jaundice and fatty liver, and sent us home with a feeding tube and a bunch of Hill's A/D to feed her. It has been extremely difficult to keep any food down her for the past two weeks. She will vomit at least once per day on average, and went a few days when we were unable to get her to keep anything down. I will elaborate on our feeding strategy further down.
Apparently we had not paid enough attention to her when she was ill with the cold to realize she had stopped eating to the point where she was losing weight and developing hepatic lipidosis. The house is full of busy people though, so when she is depressed and hiding due to an illness, keeping tabs on her isn't exactly the first thing on our minds. :(
From the testing at the vet, the blood work looked normal except for elevated liver values and slightly elevated pancreas values (though I am told the latter is rather meaningless in general). An x-ray turned up no gall stones or obstructions. The vet has been reluctant to give any more information or suggestions besides to have an ultrasound done at a cost of $250. I am reluctant to do this because I feel very strongly that the cat is suffering a pancreatitis and/or I.B.S. inflammation episode brought on by the previous month's cold and/or the stress of being exposed to a new cat. It seems that the ultrasound will only serve to rule out terminal illness, and not provide a conclusive diagnosis in any case.
Before you dismiss the self-diagnosis I just tossed out there as a logical leap, let me give you a bit of background. In late 2002, after a previous cat died of unrelated problems (NRG anemia), Pnut underwent a similar episode to what is happening now, though much less severe. She simply stopped eating, developed jaundice, was diagnosed with fatty liver, and a feeding tube was installed. We fed her A/D until she started eating on her own again. She has always had periodic random vomiting during her adult life, maybe once per few weeks on average. Most of the time it is a clear liquid similar to bile. We could never tell what would bring this on. She also loves to raid the trash despite our best attempts to keep her out of it, which seems to be a risk factor for chronic pancreatitis.
Right now, we are trying to keep her nourished with Hill's A/D and recently I/D which I tried to see if it would have any effect. Anti-vomit pills (Metaclopramine) and painkiller (Butorphanol) have little to no effect on the vomiting. The only thing that seems to help her keep food down is giving antacid, 1/4 of a 10mg pepcid pill 1 hr before eating for the first time that day. If she misses that dose, she will vomit all feedings until it is given. If she gets that dose, she usually will not vomit until an evening feeding. I tried I/D as an attempt to "go easier" on her digestive system than A/D. An initial feeding was kept down OK, but an evening feeding (10 hrs after antacid was administered) was vomited 2.5 hrs after feeding.
In a nutshell, we give antacid in the morning, then try to feed at least 20cc and at most 40cc of a mixture of one can A/D or I/D with 32cc warm water, three times a day. If she vomits, we cease feeding for at least six hours and try again later. We flush the feeding tube with 5cc warm water. If she vomits, she will vomit anywhere from immediately to 3 hours after a feeding. She is passing vaguely normal-looking fecal matter (occasionally diarrhea) and appears to be urinating regularly, so at least something is working properly. She is very likely to vomit when agitated or disturbed, so we leave her in a closed but ventilated bathroom most of the day. Only the bathroom's visitors disturb her, and she occasionally vomits when a visitor has just used the facility. (The smell?)
The vet suspects triad syndrome, and so do I, though I more highly suspect a simpler combination of pancreatitis and fatty liver that are working in cahoots with each other (similar to how cholangiohepatitis and pancreatitis provide a feedback loop for each other in a triad syndrome situation).
It seems I am in a textbook catch-22 situation.
To address the fatty liver/jaundice, I need to feed her enough to prevent body mass from being re-appropriated as an energy source. But if I feed her, it would aggravate any pancreatitis that is present. The possibility of a I.B.S. episode instead of pancreatitis also exists, but the vet will not prescribe corticosteroids without ruling out a pancreatitis episode (since they may make an already difficult pancreatitis situation even worse). Ruling out the pancreatitis is done through the ultrasound, and I am told that even if the pancreas is not visible on the ultrasound, that is not a conclusive diagnosis one way or the other, just a best guess. Also, to avoid aggravating pancreatitis, I should be feeding high-carb foods. But it is questionable as to whether they will provide sustainable nutrition to a critter whose body is designed to run primarily on proteins and fat.
I (and Pnut) am up a creek. I can't afford the ultrasound or any more conclusive diagnosis involving tissue biopsies. I can't afford inpatient treatment. I _can_ afford the diet/Rx foods and the time to spend with her concocting her food mix, feeding through the tube and cleaning up messes (as I have throughout the last week). However, I will not be the primary caretaker in the coming weeks, so I need to come up with some kind of protocol that "covers all the bases" so to speak.
I have 3 scenarios I wish the group to consider: 1) Triad syndrome. I.B.S. causes pancreatitis and cholangiohepatitis, followed by hepatic lipidosis. 2) Hepatic lipidosis caused by not eating due to acute pancreatitis or a chronic flare-up. 3) Hepatic lipidosis caused by not eating due to I.B.S. flare-up. Liver disturbance triggers pancreatic reaction. Sort of an "acute" triad syndrome.
I have looked at other possibilities, such as parasites, FIP, distemper, etc. None seem to fit the circumstances and none were even suggested by the vet. The vet has generally agreed that we are probably looking at triad syndrome or something approximating it. But she has offered very few suggestions for treatment. She suggested cancer at one point, but I can't help but think cancer would be an _extreme_ coincidence considering the circumstances (new cat in the house, new cat brought a cold, and anorexia was undetected for a period of time). Why would a cancer wait until exactly now to start generating symptoms? How do I explain the previous episode and chronic random vomiting?
It seems (from reading) that the only avenue of success with pancreatitis is to withhold food and water for at least 24 hours, preferably 48; but more than 24 hours requires hospitalization with IV fluids. I am curious how successful these approaches typically are. I have a feeling I would be laughed out of the state if I suggested an approach that included withholding food to my vet, with the cat already suffering from fatty liver. Is 24 hrs typically safe, assuming the cat is given under-the-skin fluids to support her that day? Is this to be considered a reasonable tradeoff between trying to solve the highly suspected pancreatitis, and not aggravating the fatty liver/wasting problem too much in the meantime?
What I need is options. I would like any of the following: - Suggestions for treatment _in the case of_ one of the aforementioned disease scenarios, to give me an idea of the scope of the problem I'm likely to be dealing with. This will help me decide whether or not euthanization is the best option for us in the long run, as much as it would pain me to make that choice.
- Suggestions to pass along to the vet. She may not have all the bases covered in diagnosis, nor have relayed all the options to me. If I can "jog her memory" or get her to do some research on possible angles, it may help us all out.
- Suggestions to stabilize the current scenario or how to improve on my current methods of feeding/nursing, to pass on to the primary caretaker for the next week. Anecdotal suggestions are ok, i.e. "This worked for Fizban when he showed the symptoms you have described". I am looking for dietary suggestions (_what_ is good to feed her) as well as procedural suggestions (_when_ and _how much_ is good to feed her).
Remember that I have been nursing her for two weeks. She is stable and not in a state of shock, but her stable state is not exactly that great, and may be invisibly deteriorating. I would like to try to target the most likely underlying problems, since I don't have the resources for a proper diagnosis (and such diagnosis seems to be nebulous at best).
As of today, she was given antacid in the morning, given 20cc I/D mixture at 2:00pm, which she kept down, given 20cc I/D at 7:00pm, which was vomited at 9:30pm (perhaps due to a disturbance), and I gave 10cc water at 11pm. Tomorrow is Sunday, so I won't be able to see a vet for about 36 hours at this point.
Help me formulate a plan of action! I'd like to go in to her office Monday armed with information instead of frustration.
Thanks for any insight your experiences can provide.
Underwood - 04 Apr 2004 08:18 GMT Let me make some sense of that first paragraph before you give up in frustration:
> We have a 6 yr old tabby who was recently introduced (February) to a new Pnut is the 6 yr old tabby.
> the cold or upper respiratory infection. The new cat completely > recovered and is fine now, and never had a problem to begin with. The new cat _did_ have a problem to begin with, it just wasn't much of a problem and had no life-threatening complications along with it.
I forgot to mention that Pnut grinds her teeth loudly on occasion and especially frequently before vomiting. I assume this is just a stress factor but I feel it is worth mentioning. She also seems to have significantly more drainage from her eyes than normal, but that may be due more to poor grooming than anything else.
Dick Ballard - 04 Apr 2004 10:03 GMT We went through a fatty liver/pancreatitis episode several years ago with a then 13 year old cat. The vomiting clear or yellow fluid, not eating, withdrawal, postures and behavior suggesting pain, all too familiar. The vet even did an exploratory surgery. Internal organ appearance suggestive of pancreatitis but nothing definitive.
After we got him back in shape with tube feeding and prednisone for several weeks, he gradually recovered. He has been on prednisone, and later prednisolone, ever since. He now gets 5 mg every other day.
About a year ago I tried tapering off the med and then dropping it. But within a few weeks he started going down again. So we're resigned to giving him a pill every other day for the rest of his life. We still have no idea of the origin of this malady.
He is now 17 and leads a pretty normal life, although he is badly spoiled and neurotic. That's partly his original personality, but also can be blamed on the attention he necessarily got while he was so sick.
Dick Ballard ballardr@att.net
>We have a 6 yr old tabby who was recently introduced (February) to a new >member of the house, a maine coon mix from the local shelter. He [quoted text clipped - 167 lines] > >Thanks for any insight your experiences can provide. Underwood - 04 Apr 2004 17:59 GMT > We went through a fatty liver/pancreatitis episode several years ago > with a then 13 year old cat. The vomiting clear or yellow fluid, not > eating, withdrawal, postures and behavior suggesting pain, all too > familiar. The vet even did an exploratory surgery. Internal organ > appearance suggestive of pancreatitis but nothing definitive. Yeah. That's the problem I have with this. There appears to be no real way to diagnose the problem except by "heuristic" analysis, i.e. making a good guess after ruling out other possibilities.
> After we got him back in shape with tube feeding and prednisone for > several weeks, he gradually recovered. He has been on prednisone, and > later prednisolone, ever since. He now gets 5 mg every other day. Ok, here's where I am getting conflicting information. I have read several news articles which reported success with using prednisone to address a "probable" but inconclusively diagnosed pancreatitis. However, my vet as well as several web sites and other articles strongly discourage the use of prednisone in the event of pancreatitis. When I mentioned the possibility of trying steroids to my vet, she declined "because the cat may have pancreatitis".
Why do these conflicting opinions exist? Would I be crazy to suggest to my vet that we try a small dose (<5mg) to see how the cat responds? I'm curious what sort of corticosteroid interaction would be required to negatively impact a pancreatitis attack. Can the dosage be kept low, or is it the mere presence of the steroid that causes problems?
> About a year ago I tried tapering off the med and then dropping it. > But within a few weeks he started going down again. So we're resigned [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > can be blamed on the attention he necessarily got while he was so > sick. Pnut is pretty neurotic to begin with. Your post gives me a great deal of hope, but I hope some others chime in with their opinions before tomorrow.
Thanks!
Dick Ballard - 04 Apr 2004 23:47 GMT I just dug out the records of Jake's bout with hepatic lipidosis and pancreatitis. It began in April 2000. It appears, from what I wrote back then, that he wasn't on prednisone during the tube feeding and initial recovery period. That lasted 6-8 weeks during which time the daily improvements were frequently offset by losses the next day. But he gradually got better and the feeding tube was removed in early June 2000. He never lost a lot of weight. He went from 16lbs before the episode down to 12-13lbs and then back to 15lbs. From there on things were pretty smooth until early September 2000 when he relapsed.
It was then that he was started on prednisone at 5mg twice a day and remained on that dose through the middle of October 2000 when the dose was dropped to 5mg per day. After further improvement over the next month, the prednisone was reduced in November 2000 to 5mg every other day. That continued over the next year.
At his checkup in December 2001 the vet suggest that we drop the prednisone completely. Two weeks later he relapsed again. Back to 5mg twice a day for a week, then down to once a day until January 2002 when it was switched to prednisolone and set back to every other day again.
Apparently the only reason for the switch to prednisolone was because prednisone is converted to prednisolone in the liver and with dogs this process can be a problem. Not so for cats, but the vet didn't want to stock both versions.
That continued for another year until January 2003 when I tried, on my own, to adjust the dose to 2.5mg every other day. However, in March 2003 he crashed again, so back to twice a day on the pills, and then taper back to the 5mg every other day regimen after about a month. That's where things stand right now. He has had no further relapses since then - about a year ago.
So the steroid thing is ambiguous. Jake didn't get them for the initial recovery which was as much from the hepatic lipidosis as from the pancreatitis. But for all of the relapses, that's all that was done - increase the prednisone. It hasn't cured him but it seems to hold something at bay. Not sure what that is. The only issues with the steroids that I've noticed are that he can't jump as far (rear weakness) and possible weight gain. But he never was a small animal and he is currently at his original 16lbs.
Dick Ballard ballardr@att.net
>> We went through a fatty liver/pancreatitis episode several years ago >> with a then 13 year old cat. The vomiting clear or yellow fluid, not [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >Thanks! Lotte - 05 Apr 2004 00:34 GMT I suggest you have both cats tested for Bartonella -- turned out to be the underlying problem with my 14 year-old who had always been a "barfer." She developoed cardiomyopathy as a result of the long-term infection, but Bartonella can now be treated, and the test is not expensive. -- Lotte
> We have a 6 yr old tabby who was recently introduced (February) to a new > member of the house, a maine coon mix from the local shelter. He [quoted text clipped - 168 lines] > > Thanks for any insight your experiences can provide. J. Martin - 05 Apr 2004 01:51 GMT The ideal approach would be to get an exploratory surgery done so that the liver, intestines, stomach and pancreas can be biopsied and a jejunostomy tube can be placed. Ultrasound examinations can easily miss pancreatitis in cats and U/S guided biopsies are not a reliable way to diagnose liver disease in cats (will seldom diagnose cholangiohepatitis). If you can't afford this then you may have to discuss altering therapy.
antiemetics: odansetron and dolasetron are very good medications to add to metoclopramide to control vomiting but are very expensive. SAM-E: Denosyl increases levels of antioxidants in the liver..most internists I'm aware of treat feline liver disease with denosyl nowadays Vitamin E: another important antioxidant for treating liver disease Milk Thistle: a useful adjunct to other medications for liver disease URS: I've found this to be the most useful medication for treating fatty liver disease in cats. Antibiotics: suppurative cholangiohepatitis needs to be treated with 4-8 weeks of antibiotics. Unless I'm sure this disease is not present I treat liver cats with antibiotics. Prednisone: if all else fails I resort to prednisone even if owners can't afford a full diagnostic work up. Prednisone doesn't aggravate pancreatitis in cats to the same extent it does in dogs and humans.
> We have a 6 yr old tabby who was recently introduced (February) to a new > member of the house, a maine coon mix from the local shelter. He [quoted text clipped - 168 lines] > > Thanks for any insight your experiences can provide. Ryan Underwood - 05 Apr 2004 06:33 GMT > The ideal approach would be to get an exploratory surgery done so that the > liver, intestines, stomach and pancreas can be biopsied and a jejunostomy > tube can be placed. Ultrasound examinations can easily miss pancreatitis in > cats and U/S guided biopsies are not a reliable way to diagnose liver > disease in cats (will seldom diagnose cholangiohepatitis). If you can't > afford this then you may have to discuss altering therapy. Is anyone familiar with a "fine needle aspiration" test? Does this typically cost significantly less than the ultrasound, and does it normally provide a conclusive rule-out or diagnosis of cholangiohepatitis? It seems that it would be beneficial to know whether the liver is the source of the problem or simply an innocent victim, and the only way I am currently seeing the liver as being a possible source of the underlying problem is in the case of cholangiohepatitis. That isn't an entirely unlikely scenario due to the new cat in the house, though he hasn't shown any problems himself.
> Prednisone: if all else fails I resort to prednisone even if owners > can't afford a full diagnostic work up. Prednisone doesn't aggravate > pancreatitis in cats to the same extent it does in dogs and humans. Can you provide more information about this? I suggested using steroids in a previous conversation with the vet, and I got a response like I was off my rocker for making such a suggestion, due to the possibility of the cat having pancreatitis. Is there a threshold dosage under which the pancreatitis interaction normally isn't a big problem? If it _does_ aggravate the problem, are the complications immediately noticeable and reversible? It's possible that my vet doesn't have much experience using prednisone (or some other corticosteroid) in a liver case, so this information would be helpful to us in making a decision.
J. Martin - 05 Apr 2004 12:15 GMT > Is anyone familiar with a "fine needle aspiration" test? Does this > typically cost significantly less than the ultrasound, and does it > normally provide a conclusive rule-out or diagnosis of cholangiohepatitis? NO. FNA will not diagnose cholangiohepatitis. FNA's will frequently yield a diagnosis of fatty liver but this is often secondary to cholangiohepatitis which will not be picked up by FNA. Ultrasound guided trucut biopsies are also likely to miss it. The only ways to properly diagnose feline liver disease is via large biopsy samples taken by laparoscopy or exploratory surgery. There has to be enough tissue for the pathologist to see bile duct architecture in order to diagnose cholangiohepatitis.
> > Prednisone: if all else fails I resort to prednisone even if owners > > can't afford a full diagnostic work up. Prednisone doesn't aggravate [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > prednisone (or some other corticosteroid) in a liver case, so this > information would be helpful to us in making a decision. Read the excerpt below. The section on therapy discussed using prednisone in cases of concurrent IBD or cholangiohepatitis.
Update on the Diagnosis and Management of Feline Pancreatic Disease Waltham Feline Medicine Symposium 2003 Stanley L. Marks, BVSc, PhD, Diplomate ACVIM (Internal Medicine, Oncology), Diplomate ACVN University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine Davis, CA, USA
PANCREATITIS
Pancreatitis is the most common condition of the feline exocrine pancreas. Although diseases of the exocrine pancreas have been thought to occur much less commonly in cats than in humans or dogs, a retrospective study revealed significant pancreatic pathologic lesions in 1.3% of 6504 feline necropsy cases and in 1.7% of canine necropsy examinations. In addition, a recent report of 47 cats with pancreatitis documented a high incidence (59%) of concurrent fatty change in the cats' livers. The lack of sensitive and specific markers for feline pancreatitis, as well as the low index of suspicion for pancreatic disorders in cats have contributed to the relatively infrequent antemortem diagnosis of pancreatitis in this species. Chronic pancreatitis (CP) is more commonly seen in the cat and is a continuing inflammatory disease characterized by irreversible morphological change, possibly leading to permanent impairment of function.
The cause(s) for feline pancreatitis are poorly understood. Acute hypercalcemia has been shown to experimentally induce acute pancreatitis. Other risk factors include infections with Herpesvirus, Toxoplasma gondii, FIP, and liver flukes. Bile duct obstruction secondary to biliary calculi, sphincter spasm, tumors, or parasites can also predispose to acute pancreatitis in cats. Trauma from excessive surgical manipulation, automobile accidents, or falling from high buildings has also been associated with acute pancreatitis. Other predisposing factors include uremia and administration of cholinesterase-inhibitor insecticides.
The association of feline hepatic lipidosis and pancreatitis has been well documented. Pancreatitis is present in approximately 40% of cats with hepatic lipidosis and usually warrants a poorer prognosis when present. It is difficult to predict which disease occurs initially. Speculation is also increasing about the association between feline inflammatory bowel disease and pancreatitis. In cats with hepatic lipidosis, the signalment, history, physical examination, and clinicopathologic findings are generally indistinguishable in cats with and without pancreatitis; however, cats with pancreatitis are more likely to be underweight and have coagulation abnormalities and peritoneal effusion.
Diagnosis
The clinical presentation of cats with pancreatitis is vague and nonspecific. In a retrospective study of 40 cats with necropsy-confirmed pancreatitis, reported clinical signs were lethargy in 100% of the cases, anorexia in 97%, dehydration in 92%, hypothermia in 68%, vomiting in 35%, abdominal pain in 25%, palpable abdominal mass in 23%, dyspnea in 20%, ataxia, and diarrhea in 15%. In contrast, vomiting and abdominal pain are the most consistent clinical signs in dogs and in humans suffering from pancreatitis. Hematologic abnormalities are uncommon and nonspecific. Leukocytosis is a relatively common finding in acute pancreatitis. The patient may have a left shift or have toxic white cells if the disease is severe. Other hematologic changes reflect fluid loss and hemoconcentration. Biochemical abnormalities include mild to moderate elevations in ALT, ALP, and bilirubin and usually reflect concurrent hepatic disease (hepatic lipidosis or cholangiohepatitis). Azotemia is frequently observed secondary to dehydration in most cases. Hyperglycemia is far more commonly seen in cats due to concurrent stress or diabetes mellitus. Hypocalcemia is occasionally seen due to saponification of peripancreatic fat. Abdominal radiographs are often subtle and subjective. Decreased contrast in the anterior abdomen, dilated and gas filled small intestines, transposition of the duodenum, stomach and colon are commonly reported. Abdominal ultrasound may reveal a hypoechoic pancreas surrounded by hyperechoic mesentery, with or without dilated bile ducts. Ascites is occasionally observed.
The measurement of serum lipase and amylase activities is of low value in the diagnosis of pancreatitis in cats, with serum concentrations appearing quite variable. Determination of serum trypsin-like immunoreactivity (TLI) measures antibodies against circulating trypsin and trypsinogen. TLI is cleared by the kidney; therefore, elevations can occur with renal dysfunction. TLI values in the normal reference range do not rule out pancreatitis, and abnormally elevated TLI concentrations are not diagnostic for pancreatitis. A serum feline pancreatic lipase immunoreactivity (fPLI) test was recently developed and validated and preliminary findings suggest that this test is more sensitive than any other diagnostic tool for the diagnosis of feline pancreatitis. The current "gold standard" for diagnosing pancreatitis is pancreatic biopsy for histologic evaluation. Peripancreatic fat necrosis is a typical finding in cats with pancreatitis, with variable amounts of acinar cell necrosis and inflammation. Chronic pancreatitis is characterized by interstitial fibrosis with acinar atrophy and lymphocyte infiltrates. The disease can have a "patchy" or multifocal distribution, and pancreatic biopsies should always be procured during laparotomy even if the gross appearance of the organ appears normal.
Therapy
The clinical picture of pancreatitis in cats differs markedly from that in dogs. Most cats diagnosed with pancreatitis have a more chronic and indolent form of the disease, with vomiting or diarrhea being relatively uncommon presenting complaints. Because of these dissimilarities, therapeutic recommendations for the cat are quite different to those in the dog with pancreatitis. Many cats are anorectic, and fasting the cat for an additional 3-5 days to "rest" the pancreas will be of little to no clinical benefit. In addition, there is little clinical evidence to support excessive dietary fat restriction in cats with pancreatitis. At the University of California, Davis VMTH, cats with pancreatitis that are anorectic or have lost significant body weight undergo gastrostomy or esophagostomy tube placement for enteral feeding. Despite the dogma recommending complete "pancreatic rest" in patients with pancreatitis, we have not appreciated any clinical deterioration in these patients associated with enteral feeding. Enteral tube placement is avoided if the cat is vomiting intractably or has moderate ascites present. Jejunostomy tube feeding or total parenteral nutrition can be used in cats that are vomiting despite the administration of antiemetic therapy. Surgical placement of jejunostomy tubes is preferred over percutaneous endoscopic placement. Most cats with chronic pancreatitis can be fed a commercially obtained complete and balanced canned diet formulated for maintenance of the animal. It is unnecessary to feed human liquid formulas and liquid veterinary products that frequently contain large amounts of fat. In addition, most human liquid enteral formulas are too low in protein, are free of taurine, and deficient in arginine for the maintenance of feline patients.
The foundation of treatment for cats with severe acute necrotizing pancreatitis is similar to that in the dog with AP. These cats present with a more acute history of anorexia, vomiting, and weight loss, and many cats will be icteric due to extrahepatic bile duct obstruction. Maintenance of fluid and electrolyte balance is of paramount importance. Most of these cats will not tolerate intragastric feeding, and jejunostomy tube feeding or TPN should be administered.Although controversial, antibioticadministration is best avoided unless the cat is febrile or exhibits toxic changes on the hemogram. Most pancreatitis cats have a sterile pancreas and inappropriate antibiotic administration in cats could result in anorexia, salivation, and vomiting. If indicated, one can administer enrofloxacin (5 mg/kg IV q 12 hr) and cefotaxime (25-50 mg/kg IV q 8 hr), as these drugs penetrate well into the pancreas. Antiemetic therapy is indicated if the vomiting is persistent or severe. Phenothiazine derived antiemetics such as chlorpromazine work well, although prokinetic drugs such as metoclopramide as a continuous infusion (1-2 mg/kg/24 hr) may also be helpful. Analgesic therapy (fentanyl, buprenorphine, or butorphanol) should be given to provide relief if abdominal pain is severe. Diabetes mellitus is relatively commonly seen in cats with pancreatitis, and animals should be treated with insulin. Respiratory distress, neurological problems, cardiac abnormalities, bleeding disorders, and acute renal failure are all poor prognostic signs, but attempts should be made to manage these complications by appropriate supportive measures. Gastric mucosal protection with an H2 blocker is recommended in patients with acute pancreatitis where gastric mucosal viability is compromised. Severe pancreatitis is also associated with a marked consumption of plasma protease inhibitors as activated pancreatic proteases are cleared from the circulation. Saturation of available alpha macroglobulins is rapidly followed by acute DIC, shock, and death. Although controversial, transfusion of plasma or whole blood to replace alpha macroglobulin may be life saving under these circumstances. Colloid support to enhance pancreatic perfusion can be supplied with hydroxyl starch or high molecular weight dextran. Corticosteroids should be given on a short-term basis to animals in shock associated with fulminating pancreatitis, or on a long-term basis in patients with concurrent IBD or lymphocytic/plasmacytic cholangiohepatitis. We have not observed any deleterious effects of prednisone administration in cats with pancreatitis and concurrent IBD or cholangiohepatitis when prednisone was administered at a dosage of 10 mg daily. In those patients in which acute pancreatitis is confirmed at exploratory laparotomy, removal of any free peritoneal fluid by abdominal lavage is advisable. In some cases, pancreatitis may be localized to one lobe of the gland, and surgical resection of the affected area may be followed by complete recovery.
The use of dopamine by constant rate infusion at 5 ?g/kg/min has been shown to be beneficial in preventing exacerbation to severe hemorrhagic pancreatitis in a feline model of pancreatitis. This effect is probably mediated by ameliorating increases in microvascular permeability that could promote pancreatic edema. Unfortunately, this effect was only shown when dopamine was administered within 12 hours of initiating pancreatitis in these cats. Clinical trials evaluating dopamine in cats with spontaneous pancreatitis are warranted before this drug can be uniformly endorsed. Pancreatic enzyme supplementsmay decrease abdominal pain probably by feedback inhibition of endogenous pancreatic enzyme secretion. Similarly, somatostatin and its analogues inhibit pancreatic secretions, although clinical studies have failed to show any ameliorating effects of spontaneous pancreatitis in human beings.
"Ryan Underwood" <nemesis@icequake.net> wrote in message
Ryan Underwood - 05 Apr 2004 16:55 GMT > Read the excerpt below. The section on therapy discussed using prednisone > in cases of concurrent IBD or cholangiohepatitis. THANKS! Wow, what a great resource. I will definitely be showing that to the vet.
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 03:00 GMT I had your article faxed to the vet along with a plea to try 5mg prednisone (or prenisolone) as well as SAM-e and Actigall if they are available. I also asked about a few other things such as the possibility of treating for cholangioheptatis without a diagnosis, and anti-vomiting agents. She didn't call us back today. That frustrates me immensely, considering we may be running on limited time here.
To the group:
I am thinking about getting a second opinion tomorrow, but I don't know what the costs will be like. Will they charge to do bloodwork/x-rays all over again? Will the original vet resent the fact that we went to someone else, or be cooperative? Any anecdotes you have are fine.
If food is being vomited, what is a decent amount of water to give to ensure she is not getting dehydrated? We are giving 6cc water in place of food when she has vomited.
I am getting pressured to euthanize her, but I am firmly against it until we have exhausted the options. We have spent so much money on diagnosis and treatment ($500-800 so far, most of it was not on my watch) that it hardly seems wise to give up at this point, especially considering no treatment has even been attempted aside from dietary, and she has been stable for the past week if not slightly improved from the rotten state she was previously in. Why put her to sleep when you've barely tried and she is not in any obvious pain?
I don't know if the vet is just plain stonewalling me, or if she is really concerned about the complications of treating undiagnosed afflictions. But what harm could it do to try Actigall, SAMe, or a low dose of prednisone? Trying out the various Rx that would be prescribed anyway seems to be cheaper than trying to obtain a conclusive diagnosis in cases like this.
The current situation is that she is in a catatonic state most of the time, has occasional diarrhea (but produced a solid turd today), seems to be urinating normally, occasionally gets up and walks around when she has something on her mind (like escaping the bathroom), and vomits approximately 1 of 3 feedings, while not interested at all in eating on her own. The only thing that seems to have been even mildly successful in controlling the vomiting is Pepcid. Metaclopramide and Butorphonal (for pain) had no observable effect on the vomiting or her general state. She grinds her teeth occasionally, and seems to do it more frequently when she is about to vomit. She does not seem overtly jaundiced anymore, so we may have the fatty liver under control, but will need a blood panel to verify that.
Cheryl - 06 Apr 2004 03:43 GMT > I am thinking about getting a second opinion tomorrow, but I don't > know what the costs will be like. Will they charge to do > bloodwork/x-rays all over again? Will the original vet resent the > fact that we went to someone else, or be cooperative? Any anecdotes > you have are fine. I emailed you but I'm not sure if you got it. SamE (denosyl) and Actigal were what my Shadow got for HL along with ABs when he first had the feeding tube put in, no steroids while the feeding tube was in; it may inhibit healing IIRC. You can take your bloodwork results and xrays with you for a second opinion; you paid for them. The xrays may be on loaner with a deposit but I've never understood that. Ask your vet flat out for a referral to a specialist with the understanding that if you're denied you're going anyways. If the bloodwork is old (ie, even a week or more, the specialist may want to do it again but they can test for specific values such as ALT, AlkPh, biliruben and not have to do a full workup. When Shadow was sick he had weekly tests run on these values alone. As for the emotions of your current vet, not sure. Mine referred us out because they just weren't experienced enough, nor had the equipment to go any further with a cat who wouldn't eat and was dropping weight quickly, and was incredibly nauseous.
 Signature Cheryl
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 03:59 GMT > I emailed you but I'm not sure if you got it. Actually, my mom forwarded me your email (It went to her account because I was at her house when I originally posted).
> SamE (denosyl) and Actigal were what my Shadow got for HL along with > ABs when he first had the feeding tube put in What sort of antibiotics did Shadow get? I'm not sure if Pnut received any, because I wasn't there when it was done.
> no steroids while the feeding tube was in; it may > inhibit healing IIRC. I was thinking about that. I also thought of the possibility of giving steroids while the tube was in, and if a positive response occurred, allowing her to get herself into better shape, then removing the tube and steroids later, letting the wound heal and dealing with the sickness potentially returning, and then resuming steroids at a later point. Unfortunately I thought about all that after faxing my vet. Maybe this is why she is so reluctant to try steroids. I also specifically mentioned prednisone when perhaps she is more comfortable with something else like prenisolone. But I'm puzzled why we didn't at least get a call back to discuss it.
> You can take your bloodwork results and xrays with you for a second > opinion; you paid for them. The xrays may be on loaner with a deposit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > specialist may want to do it again but they can test for specific values > such as ALT, AlkPh, biliruben and not have to do a full workup. I'm glad you have experience with this. Do "specialists" typically charge "special" rates or should it be in the ballpark I can afford?
> When Shadow was sick he had weekly tests run on these values alone. As > for the emotions of your current vet, not sure. Mine referred us out > because they just weren't experienced enough, nor had the equipment to > go any further with a cat who wouldn't eat and was dropping weight > quickly, and was incredibly nauseous. Our vet seems pretty insistent on an ultrasound and/or biopsy before going any further. I'm having trouble seeing the point in that, and getting further explanation or getting her to let us try anything is proving difficult. Like I said, I don't know enough about her to know whether it is out of concern, incompetence, or malice. I highly doubt the last one, and really do suspect the first. But I really wish there had not been a lapse in communication today.
I just had my sister check the cat's gums today, and she claims that they are pink and no longer light yellow like before. So perhaps we have the liver under control. Maybe if we have another blood panel done, the current vet would be a little more aggressive about doing something if it shows that we have significantly reduced the HL over the past week.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply!
Cheryl - 07 Apr 2004 01:49 GMT > What sort of antibiotics did Shadow get? I'm not sure if Pnut > received any, because I wasn't there when it was done. He was on Clavamox, liquid form administered into the feeding tube. He can't tolerate clavamox these days, though. Last time he had to have a round of it he was sick sick sick.
>> no steroids while the feeding tube was in; it may >> inhibit healing IIRC. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the sickness potentially returning, and then resuming steroids at a > later point. Believe me, I understand your frustration over this. I kept pushing Shadow's vet to let me start him on steroids because I knew they'd make him eat and it seemed at the time we were making NO progress at all with the feeding tube and I was absolutely exhausted mentally and physically yt656 (<-- from Bonnie, she sends purrs) by the routine. He didn't eat on his own until the 5th week of having the tube in.
>> going anyways. If the bloodwork is old (ie, even a week or more, the >> specialist may want to do it again but they can test for specific [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm glad you have experience with this. Do "specialists" typically > charge "special" rates or should it be in the ballpark I can afford? Won't lie to you, it wasn't cheap all told, once it was over with. The initial specialist office fee was higher than a regular vet exam fee, but then I wasn't charged an office visit fee each time I went in; in the beginning it was every week. Most of the time I was only charged for bloodwork. Then the vet screwed up really bad and all other charges were waived altogether. He lived through it, miraculously.
> Our vet seems pretty insistent on an ultrasound and/or biopsy before > going any further. How does your vet feel your cats chances are at surviving the anesthesia of a biopsy? Personally, I feel that if they are pushing for an invasive test on a cat who is doing so poorly rather than try something to build up the strength first, I'd have to question it. US, on the other hand is non-invasive. I don't know what they can tell by an US though. For HL they can tell by the echoes, but I'm not sure what other disease would create the same echoes? If they want to conclusively diagnose an underlying disease behind the HL, if that is what it is and not something else they are trying to conclusively diagnose(?), can it be done with only an US? I don't know. Biopsy can probably find an underlying disease, but at what cost? :( Shadow had heart problems under anesthesia but it turned out to be what they used, and they strongly suggested an EKG before he could undergo another anesthesia which was required, he HAD to go under again, so not sure why they made me pay for an EKG. But 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th) time around his heart didn't repeat the troubles after they changed the anesthesia used.
I read your other replies and understand your worry and frustration. If it were me going through this again, I would skip the regular vet at first signs of real trouble, ask for a referral to a specialist and eliminate all the guesswork made by vets who aren't familiar with some of the problems associated with internal medicine. Just my 2 cents; I'd say the same thing about human GPs who are out of their element trying to diagnose advanced diseases. Best wishes to kitty.
 Signature Cheryl
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 03:24 GMT > Believe me, I understand your frustration over this. I kept pushing > Shadow's vet to let me start him on steroids because I knew they'd make > him eat and it seemed at the time we were making NO progress at all with > the feeding tube and I was absolutely exhausted mentally and physically > yt656 (<-- from Bonnie, she sends purrs) by the routine. He didn't eat on > his own until the 5th week of having the tube in. We are on the 3rd week and she is still vomiting occasionally and not getting enough food in general. The jaundice is not improving according to a vet visit today.
> How does your vet feel your cats chances are at surviving the anesthesia > of a biopsy? Personally, I feel that if they are pushing for an invasive > test on a cat who is doing so poorly rather than try something to build > up the strength first, I'd have to question it. Exactly my feelings. I have no idea what their strategy is. I seem to be getting the "ivory tower" treatment instead of being directly involved in the decision making process.
> create the same echoes? If they want to conclusively diagnose an > underlying disease behind the HL, if that is what it is and not > something else they are trying to conclusively diagnose(?), can it be > done with only an US? I don't know. Biopsy can probably find an > underlying disease, but at what cost? :( Right now I think we are screwed on the underlying disease. Right now all we can do is try to stamp out the monster that is about to take her away from us, and worry about the underlying disease when we can make a clear-headed decision on it, based on quality of life, cost of meds, life expectancy, etc.
> I read your other replies and understand your worry and frustration. If > it were me going through this again, I would skip the regular vet at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > say the same thing about human GPs who are out of their element trying > to diagnose advanced diseases. Best wishes to kitty. Thanks so much. Read my reply to zuzu22 if you want an update. I would appreciate any suggestions for dealing with extreme jaundice or how to manage an injectable steroid program in the short run.
Cheryl - 07 Apr 2004 04:07 GMT > Right now I think we are screwed on the underlying disease. Right now > all we can do is try to stamp out the monster that is about to take > her away from us, and worry about the underlying disease when we can > make a clear-headed decision on it, based on quality of life, cost of > meds, life expectancy, etc. If she can handle the richness of AD straight (and Shadow did, after building up his intake *slowly*) you need to get calories into her. The cost of meds is minimal and if bloodwork shows elevated liver values and she already has a feeding tube, I may be wrong here, but working to get the correct amount of kcals into her at small frequent intervals per day could get her values down. If not, then there is more wrong here. What is her weight? Shadow is a big cat but at the worst of his illness he was just over 12 lbs and required about 380 kcals per day for convalescence care. It took several weeks to build up to that. It really required 4+ feedings per day of Hills AD 40-60ML per feeding to get him that. It was a struggle even giving it to him directly into his tummy through the tube. Once that requirement was met, though, it was only a matter of time before his liver values improved and he wasn't vomitting anymore.
 Signature Cheryl
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 04:23 GMT >> Right now I think we are screwed on the underlying disease. Right now >> all we can do is try to stamp out the monster that is about to take her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If she can handle the richness of AD straight (and Shadow did, after > building up his intake *slowly*) you need to get calories into her. She seemed to tolerate an earlier A/D feeding tonight (having had a shot of metaclopramide today) but it was only 20cc.
She is a tiny cat, was probably no more than 10 lbs healthy and is about 7.5 lbs now. That's probably the only reason she is still alive now with what she has been through, or the HL and low calorie intake would have likely already killed her. She was a bit fat at times which waxed and waned. It was never significant though and you had to really look to notice it.
> It was a struggle even giving it to him directly into his tummy through > the tube. Once that requirement was met, though, it was only a matter of > time before his liver values improved and he wasn't vomitting anymore. Should we just keep feeding her even if she vomits? I am scared that it would aggravate the problem, making her lose even more fluids and feel worse. But I really have no idea how to deal with this. She seems to randomly tolerate up to 40cc in a feeding, and then sometimes she will vomit even a 10cc feeding.
We also don't know how much supplemental water to give her. There is a sub-q bag laying around but I can't convince my sis to stick a needle in the cat. My best suggestion was to give 5cc water per hour via the feeding tube, but I have no idea if that is sufficient or even helpful in any way. She does occasionally vomit when only given water. It is a nasty yellowish mixture that comes out, I guess bile.
We are just trying to get her through the next few days so we can see if the steroid has an effect. If we don't see any improvement by Friday, I don't see any option but to euthanize her. Frankly, I doubt she will make it that long in her current condition and am heartbroken, but I haven't any idea what suggestions I can give my sis to better take care of her in the meantime. I am also taking flak from relatives for pursuing a "hopeless" case and prolonging suffering. That is difficult to deal with, but at least trying the steroid will put my mind at rest regardless of the results. We couldn't possibly have done anything else besides talked to another vet sooner.
The nine lives of Pnut: 1) Being rescued from a garbage dump in the cold by pet store 2) Sister buying from pet store, needing intensive care. Would not have gotten it otherwise 3) Survived intensive care and was a tiny sickly kitten for months 4) Had a seizure while on anesthesia being spayed 5) Broke a leg being shut in a door and wore a club for a few months 6) First jaundice and malnutrition episode in 2002 7) Current jaundice and malnutrition episode in 2004 8) ?? 9) ??
Poor cat.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 07 Apr 2004 04:40 GMT >She seemed to tolerate an earlier A/D >feeding tonight (having had a shot of >metaclopramide today) but it was only >20cc. Then you may have better luck feeding you cat less food more often. Also, please check your email.
Megan
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 04:59 GMT On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:40:21 -0500, zuzu22 wrote:
>>She seemed to tolerate an earlier A/D >>feeding tonight (having had a shot of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then you may have better luck feeding you cat less food more often. > Also, please check your email. I tried to reply, but it says your mailbox is full... do you have another email address?
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 05:19 GMT Here is the error
The WebTV_Postfix+sws program - Transcript of session follows
<zuzu22@webtv.net>: host storefull-3196.bay.webtv.net[209.240.207.146] said: 554-The incoming mailbox for user zuzu22 is full. 554 This person is not able to receive more mail at the present time. (in reply to end of DATA command)
Cheryl - 07 Apr 2004 04:41 GMT > Should we just keep feeding her even if she vomits? No, you don't want to feed her to the point of vomiting if you can help it. If she vomits, she may be getting food too fast. Everyone kept telling me tube feeding needs to be a slow process. You can't just squirt it in. Depress the plunger slowly. Depress it a little bit, 1 ML at a time and give it a rest, when kitty seems calm, depress it a little more to get more food in. It can't be hurried. It should also be body temperature. Is your sister heating the food?
I am scared that
> it would aggravate the problem, making her lose even more fluids and > feel worse. But I really have no idea how to deal with this. She > seems to randomly tolerate up to 40cc in a feeding, and then sometimes > she will vomit even a 10cc feeding. > > We also don't know how much supplemental water to give her. In my experience you shouldn't have to give supplemental water. If the food isn't rejected, it should have enough moisture.
There is
> a sub-q bag laying around but I can't convince my sis to stick a > needle in the cat. Heh. I had to stick Shadow with shots of Reglan after he threw a bloodclot. He hated it, I was bad at it. Glad that didn't last long.
Give Pnut a chance. HL can be overcome but it is emotional, it is difficult and cats are not very cooporative. It is hard on everyone. But if you don't have a prognosis yet, there is no reason to give up on her. No one will give you that yet. The liver damage can be overcome if there isn't something worse going on which you don't know yet.
> The nine lives of Pnut: > 1) Being rescued from a garbage dump in the cold by pet store [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Poor cat. She is loved and deserving. Lucky cat. :) I have a song I've created for Shadow if he could sing, he'd sing it for you. Sung to the tune of "if I only had a brain" from the wizard of oz. (note: Shadow lost his voice during one of the complications of his illness)
I could walk across the room Not feeling all this doom Feelin' very proud I wouldn't be a'runnin' Bonnie wouldn't seem so cunnin' If I only had a meow.
I'd stand up to ev'ry kitty I'd be all hissy-spitty In anger or in wow
With the meows I'd be voicin' I would be rejoicin' If I only had a meow.
Oh, I could tell you why Shamrock makes me cry, I could meow of things I never meowed before And then I'd sit and meow some more.
I would not be just a nuffin' My voice all full of snuffin' My nose all feeling ow. I would dance and be merry Life would be a ding-a-berry If I only had a meow.
 Signature Cheryl
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 04:54 GMT >> Should we just keep feeding her even if she vomits? > > No, you don't want to feed her to the point of vomiting if you can help > it. If she vomits, she may be getting food too fast. Oops, I think I phrased that wrong. I meant, if she vomits should we just go ahead and try to feed her again, or wait until her "stomach settles"? If waiting is a good idea, how long? 15 minutes? an hour?
> Everyone kept telling me > tube feeding needs to be a slow process. You can't just squirt it in. > Depress the plunger slowly. Depress it a little bit, 1 ML at a time and > give it a rest, when kitty seems calm, depress it a little more to get > more food in. It can't be hurried. It should also be body temperature. > Is your sister heating the food? Ok, my sis has a tough time handling the plunger so I think the speed isn't really much of an issue. I think her stomach is just too upset for the reaction to the food to be predictable/deterministic. She is definitely warming the food but being careful not to get it to the point of being hot.
>> We also don't know how much supplemental water to give her. > > In my experience you shouldn't have to give supplemental water. If the > food isn't rejected, it should have enough moisture. Ok. What if the feeding is vomited? Should we give water instead to at least try to get "something" down, or just try for another feeding in a bit (which obviously may or may not be successful)?
> Give Pnut a chance. HL can be overcome but it is emotional, it is > difficult and cats are not very cooporative. It is hard on everyone. But > if you don't have a prognosis yet, there is no reason to give up on her. > No one will give you that yet. The liver damage can be overcome if there > isn't something worse going on which you don't know yet. That is the only thing I am scared of. I have read horror stories about liver and biliary duct cancers, biliary duct blockages, etc etc etc. Trying to rescue her only prolonging the inevitable and all that.
The only thing that gives me more hope that I would otherwise have is the fact that she had something like this before, and whatever it was just went away before it did any permanent damage to her.
It gives me a slim margin of confidence that we are probably just dealing with a much more difficult form of the same thing, and that makes me think that it will also eventually go away. If some miracle happens and it does, you can be damn sure we will be finding the real source of the problem as soon as she is in good enough shape to do so and I can afford it.
> She is loved and deserving. Lucky cat. :) I have a song I've created > for Shadow if he could sing, he'd sing it for you. Sung to the tune of > "if I only had a brain" from the wizard of oz. (note: Shadow lost his > voice during one of the complications of his illness) You and Shadow have been a source of inspiration during this nightmare. Thank you so much.
Cheryl - 07 Apr 2004 04:19 GMT > Thanks so much. Read my reply to zuzu22 if you want an update. I would > appreciate any suggestions for dealing with extreme jaundice or how to > manage an injectable steroid program in the short run. PS, Ryan. It is important to keep your sense of humor and not show your cat that you're so scared for her. For example... Shadow had the fine needle aspiration and his vet told me to keep an eye on the skin color and if it turned black, that was very very bad and he would need emergency care. Well, Shadow is a black and white cat, mostly black but with white patches on his belly and even shaved he had pigment coloration that would make it impossible to tell if anything had changed due to this procedure so I took a picture of his bare belly. I thought it was so cute so I posted the pic in alt.binaries.pictures.animals with the subject line "shaved pussy". Some were not amused.
 Signature Cheryl
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 04:38 GMT > PS, Ryan. It is important to keep your sense of humor and not show your cat > that you're so scared for her. I'm really trying. You just put the first smile on my face of this whole day! I just hope my sis is dealing with it ok. It is hard to tell through instant messenger.
PS. Pnut is black and white too. You'd mistake her for a Holstein cow if you didn't look closely enough. We made fun of her because she was a cow that was hooked on dairy products (milk, cream cheese, whipped cream, etc).
Now she is black and white and yellow. :-(
Here are some pics of her:
http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p1010014.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0 http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p1010015.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0 http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p7250014.jpg& dispsize=640&start=20
She loved those boxes...
Here she is as a kitten. http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=020549-1-rot. jpg&dispsize=640&start=0
Here you can see some pictures of our Maine Coon that died around the same time Pnut had her first jaundice episode. We didn't pay too much attention to it because we chalked it up to the stress.
http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=album&album=phat_book&dispsize=
Poor guy had NRG anemia misdiagnosed as lymphoma. The "lymphoma" turned out to be a big ball of fat. By the time we got him on Epogen, it was too late. He died horribly in the early morning one day after starting on it. :-( The world lost a very handsome fellow that day.
Happier times: http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=020549-3.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0
sniff.
Cheryl - 07 Apr 2004 05:02 GMT > Happier times: > http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=0205 > 49-3.jpg&dispsize=640&start=0 > > sniff. Thanks for all the pictures. I loved them and I bookmarked one of the sites to go see later cos I gotta get to bed. Pnut as a kitten touches me because she's been such a part of your lives. I never knew Shadow as a kitten, he was "put out" at 3 years old by an old neighbor of mine. Here are his pics. Some are from when he was really sick. I think I was where you are now, I thought he was going to die very soon. http://community.webshots.com/album/48246898KBEaSJ
Purrs and prayers for Pnut for tonight and while you're going through this. Trust your heart though. You know her. You know if her time is up. Trust it. If you feel it isn't, pursue other options. Seriously.
 Signature Cheryl
Mary - 07 Apr 2004 12:31 GMT > Here are some pics of her: http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p1010014.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0
http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p1010015.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0
http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=p7250014.jpg& dispsize=640&start=20
> She loved those boxes... > > Here she is as a kitten. http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=020549-1-rot. jpg&dispsize=640&start=0
> Here you can see some pictures of our Maine Coon that died around the same > time Pnut had her first jaundice episode. We didn't pay too much attention > to it because we chalked it up to the stress. http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=album&album=phat_book&dispsize=
> Poor guy had NRG anemia misdiagnosed as lymphoma. The "lymphoma" turned out > to be a big ball of fat. By the time we got him on Epogen, it was too late. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Happier times: http://home.icequake.net/~nemesis/photo/?mode=view&album=phats&pic=020549-3.jpg& dispsize=640&start=0
> sniff. She is really beautiful. I love her expression in the second photo, especially.
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 22:03 GMT Here's the update.
My sister and mom took the cat to the vet. Apparently my sister is color blind and the cat is badly jaundiced still and has lost weight. The vet gave fluids, a anti vomit shot, antibiotics, and SAM-e. The vet also called my mom later and said that the cat is in trouble and probably needs to be put down. It does not appear to be crashing but we need to do something FAST. Why will they not administer steroids as I have suggested numerous times? They insist on getting a blood panel first, even though the cat is clearly nearing the end.
HELP!
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 22:33 GMT Just talked to the vet. They will not administer prednisone or prednisolone because they insist that it will have adverse effects on her liver and any possible pancreatitis (even in the face of the symposium report that J.Martin posted) and that she is too far gone to even try. They recommended having her euthanized tomorrow. What should I do? She is not obviously in pain but is in rotten shape (jaundiced, underweight, etc). I am having to act on this from 100 miles away so this is very difficult.
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 23:13 GMT I just talked to a different vet (finally) who will administer a prednisolone shot, considering that we all understand that this is approaching an endgame. I will let you all know what happens. Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.
Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 23:22 GMT > I just talked to a different vet (finally) who will administer a > prednisolone shot, considering that we all understand that this is > approaching an endgame. I will let you all know what happens. Hoping for > the best, but expecting the worst. I forgot to mention that the appointment is for 11:15 tomorrow morning. 18 hours to go.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 07 Apr 2004 00:16 GMT Since your cat is hospitalized has your cat been put on IV (not sub-q) fluids? If not it sounds like this needs to be done right away as it will help with any toxin build-up that might have developed and is generally a matter of course treatment for pancreatitis. What does the bloodwork they did today say? If there is any acute renal failure going on then it is even more important to get IV fluids. I'm starting to really not like the vet you're using and am glad you have a secondary that you can work with. I hope your cat can get through this crisis and you can get her to a specialist quickly.
Megan
 Signature
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 03:20 GMT On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 18:16:10 -0500, zuzu22 wrote:
> Since your cat is hospitalized has your cat been put on IV (not sub-q) > fluids? If not it sounds like this needs to be done right away as it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that you can work with. I hope your cat can get through this crisis and > you can get her to a specialist quickly. She is not hospitalized, and no blood work was done. (I was not aware it cost $175 to do. I'm nearly completely broke already.)
I talked to my family a while ago (I was on campus all day). Essentially for almost $100 they sent her home with a death sentence. Gave SAM-e tablets (with no way to administer due to feeding tube. Is anyone awake over there??), subq fluid, and a metaclopramide shot, even though I had said previously that metaclopramide pills were being ineffective. They later called my mom and said that the cat needed to be euthanized and that it was cruel to try to keep her alive. I called up the vet nearly in a frenzy and was insistent on trying steroids as a last option. The third Dr. I talked to was also adamant against their use, despite J.Martin's symposium report. I expressed my frustration and received a rather weak attempt at consolation and an offer to schedule euthanasia for tomorrow.
Nearly in tears, I called another vet's office and spoke with an older gentleman (I had been dealing with all female vets up to this point at the first vet's office). I told him what was going on and how close to the edge the cat is, and told him my thoughts on steroids. He completely agreed with me that diagnostics would be worthless at this point; that a big shot of prednilisone was likely Pnut's only chance at this point; and that the choice to try an outside shot at managing the disease (and a cheap one at that) was not medically sound but nevertheless is probably the right thing to do, at the cat owner's discretion of course. He readily admitted that pancreatitis and steroid use is one of those things where general medical opinion shifts almost on a yearly basis, and it's best to take it on a case by case basis. Needless to say, I liked his style, but I hope he was not just telling me what he felt I wanted to hear. It was too late to make an appointment today, but we have an 11:15 AM appointment tomorrow for what is likely to be the final move in this horrible game we've been playing for the last 3 weeks. I am only afraid that I will make the end worse for Pnut, but I can't shake this feeling that I owe it to her to try it.
Does anyone have any suggestions on the following: - How do I deal with side effects of prednisolone? I have read that it increases thirst. Does that correspond to an actual need for more water, or is it only a psychological effect? - Should I have her put on a IV drip tomorrow after being given the steroid. How much does this usually cost and is it likely to help significantly? - Should I have her given metrodinazole (Flagyl) alone with the prednisone. This seems to be generally recommended in the case of IBD which is essentially what we are shooting for at this point. - How long does the steroid shot require to take effect, and how long do the effects last? It seems oral steroids only last for 36 hours, and shots last longer; but how much longer?
Remember that she is weak and jaundiced at this point and has apparently been dehydrated for some days because I didn't get specific enough feeding instructions. I am grateful for any suggestions that you all might have. I am a broke college student trying everything I can muster to save one of the only bright spots in my little sister's life from 100 miles away.
Ryan Underwood - 07 Apr 2004 03:51 GMT I was told that they were given a bag of fluid, apparently for administering sub-q. (Can't imagine that it would be a IV bag.) Does anyone have any pointers on how to use one of these things? I found a link but I need to be able to tell my sister how to do it and not have her be scared of the needle or hurting the cat. I think getting more fluids in her would help her current state the most until the steroid shot.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 06 Apr 2004 04:47 GMT You should be giving your cat sub-q fluids daily while this is going on, especially since your cat is vomiting. My cat Sadie had symptoms very similar to what you are going through (she was diagnosed via ultrasound with a blocked bile duct that eventually led to her death 9 months later as surgery wasn't an option for her.) I gave her about 200 mls of fluids every day for months. She was also on an unusually high dose of prednisolone (anything less made her get very sick), and also received Sam-E and milk thistle every day along with metoclopramide and Zantac (it has less drug interactions than Pepcid) and I believe it helped a great deal. I also gave her cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and slippery elm as well to help soothe her digestive system. I would highly recommend you get a second opinion ASAP. If you have a university vet school near you that would be the best place to go, otherwise get a referral to see an internal medicine specialist if you have one in your area.
Megan
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Ryan Underwood - 06 Apr 2004 05:10 GMT On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:47:10 -0500, zuzu22 wrote:
> You should be giving your cat sub-q fluids daily while this is going on, > especially since your cat is vomiting. Doh! Nobody told us that. We were under the impression that the water in her food and what was used to flush her feeding tube would be sufficient. She does appear to be mildly dehydrated, as the skin doesn't snap back quickly when pinched. She will definitely be getting sub-q fluids tomorrow.
> My cat Sadie had symptoms very similar to what you are going through > (she was diagnosed via ultrasound with a blocked bile duct that > eventually led to her death 9 months later as surgery wasn't an option > for her.) Was this a gall stone, or some other form of blockage? Why did surgery turn out not to be an option? We checked for gall stones on the X-rays, but it is possible that something else is amiss. We didn't know if spending $250 on an ultrasound or even more on tissue biopsies would be likely to turn up anything that would be treatable anyway. In your case, it sounds like it did not, unless there was some specific reason the bile duct blockage was not treatable.
> I gave her about 200 mls of fluids every day for months. She was also > on an unusually high dose of prednisolone (anything less made her get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cyproheptadine to stimulate her appetite and slippery elm as well to > help soothe her digestive system. We are giving her vitamin E and milk thistle in her A/D and I/D. We mix a can of food with 32 to 40 cc of water and try to feed 25-30cc at a time. Usually she will only keep this down after having been given some acid reducer.
> I would highly recommend you get a second opinion ASAP. If you have a > university vet school near you that would be the best place to go, > otherwise get a referral to see an internal medicine specialist if you > have one in your area. Thanks.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 06 Apr 2004 06:35 GMT > Doh! Nobody told us that. We were under > the impression that the water in her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pinched. She will definitely be getting > sub-q fluids tomorrow. Make sure to consult with your vet about how much you should give as too much can be harmful. Generally speaking, giving 100 mls a day to even a healthy cat is pretty safe and is more or less a "maintenance" dose.
>> My cat Sadie had symptoms very similar >> to what you are going through (she was >> diagnosed via ultrasound with a blocked >> bile duct that eventually led to her >> death 9 months later as surgery wasn't >> an option for her.)
> Was this a gall stone, or some other > form of blockage? The best we could come up with was that chronic inflammation had caused scar tissue to develop and block the bilr duct (she had IBD for some time before this happened and that may have been a contributing factor.)
>Why did surgery turn > out not to be an option? Bile duct surgery is a very delicate and not always successful procedure and it was very possible that if they were able to fix it that the scar tissue would develop again and she'd be right back where she started. At the time when this was discussed Sadie, while still happy and having a decent quality of life, also had so many issues at that point that putting her through such an invasive surgery was likely more than she would have been able to handle. I was really torn about what the right thing to do for her would be and did have an appointment with the specialist at the U to discuss it further, but her chest suddenly started filling with fluid and couldn't be controlled so I had no choice but to make the decision to euthanize and we never made it to the appointment. :-(
>We checked for > gall stones on the X-rays, but it is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the bile duct blockage was not > treatable. When you deal with an issue like this, it really is a matter of going step by step and ruling things out using whatever technology is available. If it were me, I would go ahead with the ultrasound as it is a good tool for figuring out what is wrong and can give a much better picture than an xray. Yes, there is a chance that it won't reveal anything, but there is also the chance that it may. You won't know until you try, and even if you do get a definitive diagnosis but it turns out to be something that isn't treatable, at least you will have some answers and be able to make informed decisions rather than guesses.
Megan
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way."
- W.H. Murray
Ryan Underwood - 08 Apr 2004 23:29 GMT Well, it's all over. She was euthanized at 3:00 today. The vet (a different one) said that she had an irregular heartbeat and there was nothing to be done. My sister had her cremated and will bring her home in a vase.
:( Moral of the story: If you have a cat with jaundice, feed it as much as you can get it to keep down, and use sub-q fluids from as early a point as possible to get all that crap flushed out. The quicker you grab the bull by the horns, the better chances you will have; don't wait like we did until it was too late, to find out the proper methods of taking care of the cat.
Get a feeding tube installed and feed no less than a can of food per day. If vomiting is a problem, try Zantac or Pepcid. Those seemed to help ours keep food down. If the cat vomits a feeding, wait 1/2 hr and try again. You have got to be persistent, because the only other alternative is that the cat will slowly die, like Pnut did.
We will never know what caused her condition. It could have been something sinister like an underlying chronic disorder of some sort. Or, it could have been something much simpler, like the stress of introducing a new cat, or the cold that she caught from the new cat. We tried a shot of prednisolone a bit too late (yesterday) in case there was something underlying this episode. Unfortunately we didn't know just how badly she had deteriorated by that point.
Three major problems contributed to her death:
1) The cat stopped eating, and nobody noticed until she was yellow and depressed.
Could have been mitigated by paying more attention, but something that zuzu22 suggested to keep this from ever happening is to feed cats at scheduled times every day instead of letting them free feed. That way you know *immediately* when something is wrong, instead of having to guess whether or not they are eating anything.
2) Recovery feeding regimen was not followed.
The VCA clinic, according to the cat's history, told the person who took the cat to be initially examined exactly how much and how often the cat needed to be fed. Unfortunately, this information never made it into the hands of the people taking care of the cat (my sister and I). I can only speculate why this lapse in communication occurred. We thought a "good day" was getting her to keep down 40cc of A/D mixed with water. That is only a fraction of the caloric and fluid intake she needed if we wanted her to survive. We also thought it was a good idea to wait several hours after a vomiting to "let her stomach settle". Big Mistake. Feed the cat as often and as much as it will tolerate. 1/2 hour is a good amount of time to wait after a vomiting. The act of vomiting itself can actually help settle the cat's stomach because it clears out all the bile and stomach acid that has built up. But that is also a loss in fluid which needs to be replaced, leading me to...
3) Aggressive fluid management (sub-q fluids).
There is hardly anything worse than a cat with a life threatening disease such as hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver). One thing that *is* worse, is a cat with a life threatening disease, that is also *dehydrated*. 20ml per pound of body weight per day is a number I was given once it was too late to do anything ("Oh, *now* someone tells us...") In a vomiting/lethargic cat, the only practical way to maintain this volume of fluid is via subcutaneous administration. That means getting a bag of fluid from the vet who saw the cat, and a good supply of needles (use a different one every time!), pinching up the skin at the scruff of the cat's neck, and sticking in the needle. Yes, it sucks, you don't want to do it, you're scared of the needle, etc. Once again, if you don't do it, and your cat does not have a sufficient fluid intake otherwise, the outcome is predictable: your cat will die either of dehydration, or of the disease it is fighting. It needs water to keep its body working and to flush out any toxic buildup, especially if it is fighting jaundice. In our case, our cat needed at least 100ml a day to be maintainable. I'd be surprised if she got that much in a whole week.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that. I hope this helps someone who is in the same boat as us; inexperienced cat owners with no real resource but the Internet to turn to when their cat gets sick, and without money for a real diagnosis. We had blood work and X-rays done with no conclusive results. An ultrasound and tissue biopsies would have been hundreds more. The only choice was to try to manage the cat's condition until we could afford a diagnosis, and we failed completely at that, due primarily to lack of experience, as well as a poor flow of information critical to the cat's survival.
zuzu22 (Megan) was a life saver. I was in complete despair a few days ago, having no idea what to do, if we were doing the right thing, etc. After talking to Megan for hours and discussing the situation and the strategy we needed to be using, I am firmly convinced that we were doing all that we could do for the last week of Pnut's life. The fact that she didn't make it would have worn on me a lot more if there was any question in my mind about whether or not we were doing the right thing. Now I can at least rest my mind that we tried everything we could in the last week. I could still beat myself up about not getting involved earlier, but that just goes back to hindsight, and that's the lesson I hope others can take away from this situation.
Get involved as soon as possible, and don't take the easy way out. The easy way out is to let its disease control the outcome. The hard way is putting yourself in charge of the outcome. The hard way is a pain, because the cat will fight you, it will backslide when you thought it was doing better, people will criticize you for not just euthanizing it, and you will have to pay for things like food, sub-q fluids, blood tests, etc. None of that matters. Just think of the potential reward of your cat being healthy and with you for many more days to come, and let that thought guide your actions as you nurse it back to health.
And for the love of god, do not take one vet's advice as gospel. Get a second opinion as soon as possible, especially when the first is recommending hundreds of $ worth of diagnostics and stonewalling any further treatment until the diagnostics are done. Ensure that the vets you consult with know that you are willing to do everything possible within your financial means to get this cat healthy again, and you are not just looking for the most convenient solution to the problem (quite commonly euthanasia). The vet may tell you that 9 out of 10 cats with hepatic lipidosis end up dead. That's probably true, but remember that 9 out of 10 owners are probably not willing to commit themselves to the regimen necessary to get a yellow cat back to normal. Stress to the vet that you have the time and the patience to take care of this cat, and you just want them to give you the information and the means to do so.
I am posting this as someone who got a crash course in dealing with a sick cat and vets from 100 miles away from home over the past week, and whose 13yo sister did everything she thought she possibly could have to try to nurse the cat back to health over the past weeks. She spent all of her savings and all of her will on this cat, so it was an admittedly devastating outcome. I hope posting this saves at least 1 other much-loved cat's life out there one day.
If anyone lives in the St. Charles County area in MO and needs a place to go for pet supplies and advice, visit Pat at Animal Crackers. She was amazingly helpful throughout the last few days and she and Megan even donated to the cause. I wish so much that it hadn't been in vain, and that I had good news to post here. Our efforts were just too late.
R.I.P. Pnut Spring/Summer 1997 - 4/8/2004
Timeline:
Previous Maine coon dies slowly of NRG anemia 6/2002 - 11/22/2002 Pnut's first jaundice noticed, feeding tube installed 10/2/2002 Recovery complete, feeding tube removed 11/4/2002
New Maine Coon brought in, brings cold with him 1/27/2004 Noticed Pnut fighting big time with new cat 2/4 Noticed Pnut caught cold from new cat 2/15 Weight loss and depression noticed 3/19 Hepatic lipidosis and jaundice diagnosed 3/20 Vomiting begins, feeding tube installed 3/24 Vomiting becomes unmanageable, emergency vet visit 3/27 2 weeks of amateur management attempts Euthanized due to cardiac irregularity 4/8
m. L. Briggs - 09 Apr 2004 00:58 GMT >Well, it's all over. She was euthanized at 3:00 today. The vet (a >different one) said that she had an irregular heartbeat and there was [quoted text clipped - 150 lines] >2 weeks of amateur management attempts >Euthanized due to cardiac irregularity 4/8 Deepest sympathy in the loss of your pet. It is never easy to endure.
Karen Chuplis - 09 Apr 2004 01:06 GMT I just wanted to tell you how much I admire your love for Pnut and that you, quite obviously, tried your hardest. I was just sick for you when you were posting constantly because I could tell you were hurting. It doesn't help, I know, but Pnut was loved and above all, no matter what you think right now, that is the most important thing and believe me, Pnut knew it, I'm sure.
Hugs Karen, Grant, Sugar and Pearl
Annie Wxill - 09 Apr 2004 01:43 GMT > Well, it's all over. She was euthanized at 3:00 today. ... Ryan, Condolences to you and your sister. I wish things could have turned out differently for you. It is obvious how much you loved Pnut and how you did your best to care for her. I can tell you that the hepatitis is difficult. We lost our Moxie last July. It was her second bout. We managed to pull her out the first time, but, in spite of our efforts, she didn't make it the second time. Sometimes, it just doesn't go the way we want. Take care of yourself now, and hang onto those special memories. Annie
MacCandace - 10 Apr 2004 03:57 GMT << 2 weeks of amateur management attempts Euthanized due to cardiac irregularity 4/8 >>
Ryan, i'm very sorry about Pnut and sorry for you and your little sister. We just had our beloved cat euthanized 2 weeks ago and it very, very sad. You did your best for your kitty and helped her leave peacefully in the end. It sounds as though you learned many valuable things although, hopefully, you won't ever have to put them to use.
Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail)
See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace
"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
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