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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2006How to stop cats killing?
I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them avoid. Birds, voles, mice, shrews, weasels, and rabbits: I find them all waiting for me on the kitchen floor. Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? > Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put > an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of > some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? keep them inside till you build a pen for them, then they can play in the pen outside -- once you have one that gets ATTACKED by a dog, you won't think twice about keeping them inside Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world will it protect itself? You wrote: "Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? " > Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to > stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and > letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world > will it protect itself? OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? >> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to >> stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the > OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? You can also get cat fence toppers - they will keep the cat from climbing inside your yard. (Then only birds & mice foolish enough to enter your yard - a yard with a visible cat - are a risk.) Google: cat +fence - will return entries for outside pens and fencing > You can also get cat fence toppers - they will keep the cat from climbing > inside your yard. > (Then only birds & mice foolish enough to enter your yard - a yard with a > visible cat - are a risk.) > > Google: cat +fence - will return entries for outside pens and fencing Oops - I meant climbing OUTSIDE your yard. You can find large pens - like an outdoor dog kennel with a top - for cats also. > OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? An enclosure. Hmmm. Well, it would have to be a mighty big one for my two not to consider it a cage. At the moment they go out at 11.30am and come back in for dinner at 4.30pm and then they happily stay inside until 11.30 the next day. All through that time they are "caged", from their point of view. The thrill of going out, for them, is clearly the thrill of being truly free. I can see what you are getting at but I would still prefer to let them roam naturally, satisfying their inexhaustible curiosity etc., but if there were some device that would stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet! > > OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there > is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet! I know cats really enjoy being outside, but if you're concerned about them killing, they are only doing what comes naturally to them. I can't let my cats outside alone. There's just too many dangers where I live including cars, dogs, racoons, etc. Oh, and fortunately not in my city, but a few cities away there is some sick individual who is killing animals. It was in the newspaper today and it was really gruesome :( So I keep my cats inside, they have a couple of cat trees, and they get lots of attention and play time. Sure, it would be nice from their point of view to be outside, but I've already lost a cat to a predator outdoors. That's why I suggested the enclosure. I've seen some really nice ones, and you can put in cat trees and other things to make it fun for them. Lauren >> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stop them killing that would be great. I sincerely believe that there > is a way round this. Maybe it just hasn't been invented yet! Okay - have you tried putting bells on their collars so the birds, mice and voles have a little warning.? Other than keeping the cats confined inside, or in an outside pen there is no absolute way to keep them from killing. That's what cats are designed to do. And I can just imagine how badly my cats would scratch me if I tried to muzzle them. If you live in the country, be happy the kitties are helping to keep the mouse population down (Field mice can reproduce every 30 days if there's enough food.) The birds just need to be careful. (Believe me most of the birds know your cats are around and are very careful!) So you have to make a choice - is the pleasure my cats get from going outdoors more important to me than the number of mice/birds they are killing. If you want to protect the wildlife and let the kitties outside, enclosures/pens are pretty much the only sure way. Some Examples. Check out this outside pen - its enormous and you can build it yourself: http://www.just4cats.com/ http://www.just4cats.com/post1.html http://www.purrfectfence.com/ cat proof fences http://www.petsnap.com/menu-nav/cat-enclosuresandfencesSBC1.htm?=AW&AG=cat-fence - smaller pens >>> OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Okay - have you tried putting bells on their collars so the birds, mice > and voles have a little warning.? Even a bell might not be much help. One of my friends told me about a cat that had a bell on its neck to give the family canary warning that it was coming and how it defeated the bell: the cat swung its neck in such a way that it could grab the bell in its mouth, which had the effect of silencing the bell. Then it was able to sneak up on the canary. Now, it's a long time ago that she told me this so I don't recall if this was something she saw with her own eyes or if it was something she was told by someone else who claimed to have seen it. I would be more inclined to believe something that someone had seen themselves. But it does sound like something a smart cat could do. -- Rhino How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad suggestion of muzzling a cat?  SignatureCat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of Your Computer Needs! www.panthertekit.com > >> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > OMG yes, that would be terrible to put a muzzle on the cat :( To the > OP, why not build an outdoor enclosure for the cats? > How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad > suggestion of muzzling a cat? Oh, come on. Freedom of Thought, Freedom of Hypothesis, Freedom of Imagination: these are vital. Otherwise we would never have got man upon the moon! How do you think the Sonic Collar came to be invented? >> How about we put a muzzle on some humans who even think of such a bad >> suggestion of muzzling a cat? > > Oh, come on. Freedom of Thought, Freedom of Hypothesis, Freedom of > Imagination: these are vital. Otherwise we would never have got man > upon the moon! How do you think the Sonic Collar came to be invented? Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad your cats (and family!!) have such a nice place to play outside. Bells are still a possibility. I have a couple of cats who would never figure out how to keep the bells silent. The bells or sonic collars probably won't prevent all killings, but if they reduce the number significantly you should be pleased. (But remember, there are lots more mice where those came from. If you've ever had a mouse infested house, you wouldn't mind having the cats kill them. My kitty is scared of mice - if they move too fast she runs away!! Her mother obviously didn't have time to teach her to be a good mouser. Birds I would feel bad about, but cats have a lot harder time catching them.) -- maryjane > Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad your > cats (and family!!) have such a nice place to play outside. Hi MaryJane. I've booked marked http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk and will be watching them in the next few years. Because my cats have got six bells each on each of their collars AND I trim their claws they don't actually manage to kill too many birds. And yes I take your point about the advantages of keeping down the mouse, vole, and rabbit populations. It's a case of balancing this against the discomfort the cats feel once they have swallowed several voles whole, or even a baby rabbit. Some time ago I had to pull a baby rabbit out of one of the cat's mouth by the rabbit's back legs! (The vet explained they prefer to eat them from the head first so the far doesn't rub the top of their mouths "against the grain"!) About six months ago one of the cats slept for three days with a very big belly, which I suspected was full of rabbit. (Snakes do this, don't they, once they have gorged on prey.) Anyway, when he eventually "woke up", what did he do? Immediately threw up quite a large parcel of rabbit fur and bones, including teeth, skull, etc! It appeared that during those three days everything else of the rabbit had been efficiently digested. I know cats are completely carnivore and their systems are quite unlike ours and maybe this is just the way they are so maybe I should simply adapt to this behaviour! (Maybe even I lean a little bit towards wanting to think that my cats are nothing but cute and cuddly little balls of heaven!) > Bells are still a possibility. I have a couple of cats who would never > figure out how to keep the bells silent. Let's not introduce your cats to mine then. They'ld be a BAD influence, perhaps! :-) ("Hey, guys, THIS is how ya do it!") Ellie. >> Let us know if the sonic collars work. I'm certainly interested. Glad >> your [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Ellie. Very talented and graceful cats. Could they teach my cats to be 'buggers" (ooo that sounds bad ;) )?. I don't have mice in my current apt but could use some dedicated insect hunters.... Oh well, back to the Raid. I felt so sorry for the mice dying in the traps, would have preferred a clean kill by the cats. They now sell mouse traps which are trays filled with invisible glue with food scent. Mouse climbs in - never climbs out - dies of thirst/dehydration. (Always made me feel guilty - old fashion traps are much quicker - but a lot of mice get wise to them. I caught a few under bowls and carried far out into field. You can tell I had pet mice as a child.) Actually, if anyone has cats eating is spiders you REALLY need to discourage this behavoir. My best friend's cat loved to catch/eat spiders. Until one day she caught a very poisonous one and it must have bitten her while in the mouth. Poor kitty had terrible seizures for 30 minutes, then stopped breathing 5 minutes before we could get her to the vet. I'm not sure the vet could have helped anyway - don't think they stock spider antivenin. This is a very unusual accident, but it can happen if you live where poisonous spiders are common. A human could probably have tolerated that spider's bite with just bad swelling around the bite, but small cats don't need much of a venom dose. By the way, I did learn afterwards its possible to perform CPR on dogs/cats. (Check out web sites.) I don't know if I could do the heart massage, but you blow in their noses to provied artificial respiration. Anyway - crickets. lizards and other insects are okay. Spiders (including house spiders) BAD! -- maryjane > Could they teach my cats to be 'buggers" (ooo that sounds bad ;) )?. Hmmm. I think they would. On the other hand, you might like the drama of it. I was working in the vegetable garden this afternoon and I looked up to spot my ginger cat running down the hill behind the house with something large in his mouth. As he approached the fence he paused. I called his name encouragingly and he leapt over the fence with the rabbit (dead) still in his mouth and brought it to me. I decided to "go with it" and gave him much praise and stroking and biscuits (which I always keep loose in my right pocket). One less bunny to nibble on my vegetables, at least. It was then a matter of distracting the cat while I disappeared, a bit like you with your dead mice, into a field on the side, to find a tree where I could lay the rabbit for the owls, crows, and birds of prey. > Mouse climbs in - never climbs out - dies of thirst/dehydration. (Always > made me feel guilty - old fashion traps are much quicker - but a lot of mice > get wise to them. Yup, I used a "humane trap" too for a while. Then I found these cheap new mouse-traps which look a bit like bull-dog clips. All rounded and not looking at all lethal . . . but, my God, they are! A bit like yours they come with a pad of something that mice can't resist. I snapped up six of these traps and they are always on the go. I've often wondered what I could save on cat-food if I had one of those old-fashioned turn-handle meat-mincers: I could just drop the night's mouse-catch in every morning and that would several days of nutritious food for the cats . . . and I am sure it would be more comfortable for them to digest than the mice and voles and baby bubbies they devour whole! > Actually, if anyone has cats eating is spiders you REALLY need to discourage > this behavoir. My best friend's cat loved to catch/eat spiders. Thanks for this advice. Up until reading this I've often thought, "Great! This old house was always full of spiders before the boys arrived but I haven't seen any since they moved in!" They ARE gobbling them down. Flies too which we can get hundreds of during the summer. Yes, after I've seen them doing this I do pause a bit before I let them come snogging me while I'm watching television or sitting reading. > By the way, I did learn afterwards its possible to perform CPR on dogs/cats. > (Check out web sites.) I don't know if I could do the heart massage, but > you blow in their noses to provied artificial respiration. Blowing up my pussies' noses! Eeeek! (Especially after they've been you-know-where!) But I'll certainly remember this, Mary Jane, and brace myself if ever it's needed! Thanks for all the advice. Ellie. > Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are going to > stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle on it and > letting it outside is giving it a death sentence. How in the world > will it protect itself? Please note that I have not muzzled my cats and am not intending to. I have only mentioned muzzling to get some creative ideas rolling. Saying that putting a muzzle on a cat IS "giving it a death sentence" might be a bit strong, don't you think? After all, it depends on the circumstances. It COULD be a death sentence in a CERTAIN circumstance perhaps. On the other hand, other factors would need to be kept in mind. Cats have claws and they certainly know how to use them when confronted. They also have well developed legs and know to use them when it is best to get to hell away from an enemy. Dogs are often muzzled and, what is more, there are different kinds of muzzles. Some muzzles allows creatures to open their mouths and pant . . . but not to be able to bite. Ellie Bentley <eleanorrigby@myfreewebmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Hunting and killing is a cat's instinct. The only way you are >> going to stop it is to keep your cats indoors. Putting a muzzle [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > creatures to open their mouths and pant . . . but not to be able > to bite. What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar. Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are what it it really using as a defense. SignatureBrandy Alexandre --Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^= >What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small >branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar. With you totally there. >Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are >what it it really using as a defense. Hmmm...... Can't really see a dog being threatened by the size of a cats fangs, but a cats strike with its claws is upto seven times faster than a dogs jaws (Courtesy of Dr. Bruce Fogel). Most dogs like their snouts unbloodied. ;) http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/ "A cat is only technically an animal, being divine" - Robert Lynd > Hmmm...... Can't really see a dog being threatened by the size of a > cats fangs, but a cats strike with its claws is upto seven times > faster than a dogs jaws (Courtesy of Dr. Bruce Fogel). Most dogs like > their snouts unbloodied. ;) Having been attacked when cat-sitting the very very bad-tempered cat of a neighbour . . . I totally agree. I'm quick and pretty nimble but every time that bad-tempered little b**** of a cat has decided to rebuke my offer to stroke her or play with her she has flung out a paw and ripped the finest line of blood through my chin or down my cheek. (I reckon she's riddle with parasites, but her owners refuse to go near a vet and pay out for a de-worming tablet!) "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote in message > > What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small > branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar. > Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are > what it it really using as a defense. IMO it wouldn't ever come to that- most animals will nearly tear their face up trying to get a muzzle *off*. I am a very long time groomer and would never ever advocate leaving a muzzle on any animal when it is not attended. They can literally become frenzied and half the time get their front paws tangled up in it as well. *And* FWIW - all cat muzles I recall ever having seen cover the eyes as well. Not much use at all beyond actual hands on procedures. SignatureToni http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com > I am a very long time groomer and would > never ever advocate leaving a muzzle on any animal when it is not attended. > They can literally become frenzied and half the time get their front paws > tangled up in it as well. > *And* FWIW - all cat muzles I recall ever having seen cover the eyes as > well. Not much use at all beyond actual hands on procedures. One member here has sent me a private message directing me to a site selling "cat muzzles" and, as you say, they don't allow sight, in fact they almost completely surround the entire face, being the shape of a cone, with a hole at the end to allow air in for breathing. Well, clearly that's a cat-grooming muzzle . . . and there don't seem to be any simple strap-like muzzles designed purely to stop the cat opening its mouth fully. There could well be an opportunity here for the entrepreneur. I see an eminent politician has called for all cats which are allowed outside to be appropriately muzzled, because, he says, they are severely detrimental to wildlife and the survival of vulnerable species. > What is it climbs a tree and gets the muzzle entangled in small > branches? It could wind up a hanging just like a non-breakaway collar. > Also, the claws are for holding onto its prey/victim, The teeth are > what it it really using as a defense. OK. Thanks for this. Well, every nine days my cats have all their claws trimmed. This has been the case since they were kittens. Hence when inside they play with other with complete abandon, wrestling and "fighting", knowing they can never hurt each other. But the main point is: they climb very few trees, and those they can climb must have branches very close to the ground, and they don't get far up. If they were to get hooked on a branch and they had muzzles on, I expect they'ld get free of them as well as they get their collars free of them. As for skirmishes with other animals, there have been one or two, but they have never got to the teeth stage. There's usually just a lot of growling and posturing, and then maybe, if things go too far, some hissing followed by some claw-work! >> Please note that I have not muzzled my cats and am not intending to. I > have only mentioned muzzling to get some creative ideas rolling. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > muzzles allows creatures to open their mouths and pant . . . but not to > be able to bite.>>. But dogs are never supposed to be left unattended with a muzzle on . If a cat was sick it could choke. Alison >I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind >that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of >some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out (never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get at them). > You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out > (never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get at > them). The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them. >> You can also take them out yourself using a harness and leash or tie-out >> (never tied up unattended though, too easy for dogs or other cats to get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other > suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them. Why are they not an option? > > The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any other > > suggestion doesn't, as you say, pose a danger to them. > Why are they not an option? I moved to a very sparsely populated area of countryside full of fields, woods, forests, streams, and waterfalls. It's paradise for human AND cats (and dogs, and all other creatures who love to roam free). The cats delight in this countryside as much as we do. Each morning when we walk the half-mile down the hillside through the fields to collect the mail from the nearest road the cats bound along with us, playing tag, ambushing each other, all the way there and all the way back. You only have to see their joy in this freedom to play to understand why they would hate the harness and leash. If we were living in the centre of a city, or even a town, I might well be inclined to use the harness and leash. (I did, many years ago, when I lived in a high-rise.) I hope you understand. >> > The harness and leash aren't an option but I am concerned that any >> > other [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I hope you understand. I think it is you who doesn't understand. In a perfect world, yeah, we could let our kitties and our doggies outdoors without fences and leashes and runs. But we do not live in a perfect world. Domestic cats are not well-equipped mentally or even physically to survive in the wild. This is because we humans bred them specifically to be immature and cute and cuddly. These attributes do not fare well at all in the wild. You are doing your cats a great disservice by forcing them to fend for themselves against other cats, motor vehicles, pranksters, wild animals, and the elements. It is naive to think that your cats will have a better life if forced to fend for themselves. They won't care whether they are in your house 24 hours a day. My cat joined my family as a stray. She adapted perfectly to becoming an indoor cat, and she adapted perfectly to going outdoors in a harness and on a leash. I can't say the same for the cat I found dead in the street a year and a half ago, the blood still fresh on the pavement. Or the cat I rushed to a vet hospital after a car crushed its abdomen irreparably. Or the two stray cats my family gave food to when we lived in the country but were never seen again. Both of those cats used to emerge from the woods with open wounds. > This is > because we humans bred them specifically to be immature and cute and cuddly. > These attributes do not fare well at all in the wild. You are right on this. However, my cats are not JUST "cute and cuddly". The come from a line that have lived in these hills of centuries. They are tough and they are hardy. They could survive out there very easily without us. There is an abundance of prey out there for them to survive upon. My cats fare exceptionally well in the wild. They thrive on it. > You are doing your cats a great disservice by forcing them to fend for > themselves against other cats, motor vehicles, pranksters, wild animals, and > the elements. I have not said or implied that I "force my cats to fend for themselves"! I have not said that they ever meet any other cats. (In fact, there is only 1 other cat within a two-mile radius and she is an old thing that stays mainly indoors.) I have said that my cats live in a house which is half a mile from the nearest road. That road is also a quiet country road with little traffic. I have not given you any indication that there are pranksters in these hills. In fact, I have lived here a good number of years and have never heard that there have ever been pranksters around here. I would suggest that my cats are more likely to get themselves out of fixes than any five-year-old might find him/herself in in the countryside and I hope you would not advocate that children should never be let out of the house because of what MIGHT happen to them. A little bubble-wrap is comfortable: a LIFE lived entirely in bubble-wrap is no life at all. > They won't care whether they are in your > house 24 hours a day. You don't know my cats. When they wake up in the morning and look out the windows and see the green grass sparkling in the sunlight they race around trying to lure us to the backdoor so they can get out there and enjoy it. When they wake up, look outside, and see it is grey, gloomy, and rainy, then yes, they shut their eyes, sleep in, and aren't particularly keen to go outside. They still do though. And for a reason which you should find very interesting. My cats have ample litter trays available to them indoors at all times. However, due to the good discipline in this house, i.e. they KNOW they will be allowed out between 11.30am and 4.30pm they actually HOLD their poo for this period. They also try to hold their pee for this period too, though if they can't then they will pee in the litter trays. In other words, my cats WANT to go outside each day, find a secret place, well away from the house, usually in the middle of an adjacent field and poo there. They do this although they could quite easily use the litter trays indoors. Some days there is nothing in the litter trays to clean out. My point remains. Is there a way to lessen the killing which my superb little killers inflict on the wildlife around my house. It seems that at least the people at Willana Life-Sciences are addressing this problem and working towards answering the need - though there is clearly a long way to go yet. Their current Sonic Collar lessens predation on birds, but has no effect on mammals. But I am sure that with time and imagination they will sort that out too. See: http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk Ellie Bentley <eleanorrigby@myfreewebmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> This is >> because we humans bred them specifically to be immature and cute [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > See: > http://www.willana-lifesciences.co.uk Whatever happened to the good old cat bell on the collar? SignatureBrandy Alexandre --Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^= > Whatever happened to the good old cat bell on the collar? Hi Brandy. Well, out of all these responses it's become pretty clear that, yes, a bell works on some cats, and perhaps more than just ONE bell works on some cats, but on my two, at least, which EACH have SIX bells on their collars, it's just not enough. Actually, newly hatched birds are so curious and unaware that cats equal danger that I don't think two dozen bells would get them to make themselves scarce before the pounce of the cat! And baby bunnies really do seem to be utterly innocent: they're not genetically programmed to recognise bells as meaning "Get back down that burrow and QUICK!" Unfortunately for them. And fortunately for my cats . . . which are currently obsessed with the first baby bunnies of spring and rush off to where they know there are burrows the moment I let them out the door! Ellie. Ellie Bentley <eleanorrigby@myfreewebmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Whatever happened to the good old cat bell on the collar? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Ellie. > Bunnies are especially attractive to cats. Having raised rabbits, I've seen cats fling themselves at cages trying to get bunnies. :( I wonder if those invisble fences work as well on cats as dogs. SignatureBrandy Alexandre --Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^= > Any ideas on how to stop them actually killing? I wouldn't want to put > an end to their going outside and hunting. Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to roam around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside a half hour each day to take your cat out. > Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to roam > around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside a half hour each day to take > your cat out. I used to live in a high-rise apartment in a city in the desert where they were hundreds of stray and unwanted cats. I figured a life stuck up in my apartment all day was better for my two cats than the life they had been living down in the rubbish bins and alleyways. But now I live in the middle of the countryside a long way from the nearest road and surrounded by trees and streams and birds and many forms of wildlife. The joy my two cats express when we go out in all this is wonderful to behold. They run unfettered across fields - as swift as arrows and as fast as any dogs. They are supremely healthy as a result of this, very muscular - particularly in their hind legs. We did the leash thing for an hour each day when they were kittens and could easily have got lost and been unable to fen for themselves. I should add that now they don't get into trouble themselves. They are tough hardy cats when they are outside. The reason for my question is that it would be better, I think, if there were some way to stop them ruthlessly killing every living creature they can lay their paws on while at the same time allowing them the joy of freedom in the wild outdoors. Ellie Bentley <eleanorrigby@myfreewebmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats >> outdoors to roam around. Buy a harness and a leash and set aside [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > creature they can lay their paws on while at the same time > allowing them the joy of freedom in the wild outdoors. Get used to the idea that they're cats and just like it's natural to run free, it's natural for them to hunt and kill. It's what cats do. SignatureBrandy Alexandre --Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^= >Get used to the idea that they're cats and just like it's natural to >run free, it's natural for them to hunt and kill. It's what cats do. Have to agree with you there Brandy - We may not like what they do, but isn't that 'wildness' why we love them? http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/ "A cat is only technically an animal, being divine" - Robert Lynd >> Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to >> roam [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should add that now they don't get into trouble themselves. They are > tough hardy cats when they are outside. A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. Neither am I, my daughter or my wife - So should we all stay in or wear leashes? http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/ "A cat is only technically an animal, being divine" - Robert Lynd >>A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. >> > Neither am I, my daughter or my wife - So should we all stay in or > wear leashes? We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are. >We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are. So. there is no gun crime or deaths on the road where you live? I bet the property prices are astronomical. No matter how intelligent you claim humans are - nobody can predict the criminal mind or lousy driving. http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/ "A cat is only technically an animal, being divine" - Robert Lynd >>We're more intelligent than cats. At least some of us are. >> > So. there is no gun crime or deaths on the road where you live? I bet > the property prices are astronomical. I live in Maine. Life is good. > No matter how intelligent you claim humans are - nobody can predict > the criminal mind or lousy driving. What does this have to do with cats not being able to fend for themselves as well as humans? >I live in Maine. Life is good. Mmmmm... 103 murders 2001-5 (inc) 207 Road Fatalataties in 2003 of which 49 where out of the vehicle You're not getting your moneys worth >What does this have to do with cats not being able to fend for themselves as >well as humans? Now you might be Clark Kent, but I doubt it. In which case I cannot see you being able to dodge a bullet or fend off a large lump of metal going at any speed at all, particularly if driven by a drunk or drud abuser http://www.black-cat-gfx.co.uk/ "A cat is only technically an animal, being divine" - Robert Lynd >>> Why not? You're begging for trouble when you let your cats outdoors to >>> roam [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher? people that fish? are fishers big cat killers?? They seem like such a peaceful bunch.. > >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. > ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They seem like such a peaceful bunch.. Justin, thanks for asking the question. It had me stumped too. In my part of the world we don't know this word "fisher". (Fishermen, kingfishers, fissures, yes.) Ryan, please enlighten us. >> >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a gun. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ryan, please enlighten us. A type of weasel. MLB Ah, makes sense. We thought you had crazy cat killing fishermen around. >>> >A cat is no match for a fisher, a motor vehicle, or a schmuck with a >>> >gun. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > A type of weasel. MLB > Ah, makes sense. We thought you had crazy cat killing fishermen around. Eeeeeek. Nasty-looking things those fishers. A creature I had never heard of. Thank heavens we don't have any in my area. The closest enemy of cats we have is the mink. They got loose from some mink-farm project that somebody started in a nearby valley. Anyway, pics of the evil-looking fisher can be seen at: www.mass.gov/dfwele/ dfw/dfw_fisher.htm Ellie. >> Ah, makes sense. We thought you had crazy cat killing fishermen around. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Ellie. The correct URL is www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/dfw_fisher.htm A fisher is larger than the average size domestic cat, with males up to 25 inches long and weighing up to 15 pounds. It will kill and eat just about anything it can get its teeth in, including porcupines. > ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > They seem like such a peaceful bunch.. It is a wild animal that is known to prey on cats. It's a rather nasty animal, actually. >> ok, I get the vehicle, and the schmuck, but I don't get the fisher? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It is a wild animal that is known to prey on cats. It's a rather nasty > animal, actually. Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for killing cats and small dogs. One good reason to keep pets indoors if you know they live in your area. Of course, they leave larger dogs alone. -- maryjane > Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for killing > cats and small dogs. One good reason to keep pets indoors if you know they [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -- maryjane Actually, coyotes will attack a big dog in a group. LT >> Here in Texas, in the suburbs or country, coyotes are notorious for >> killing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > LT They'll go after toddlers too given the right opportunity. I don't remember any little ones getting killed - but after all they are wild animals. Very small children are near they're normal prey size. If the coyotes have become so acclimatized to humans as to loose fear of us - watch out. Feral abandoned dogs can be even worse - they don't fear people, have often been abused by humans and can become quite vicious. (On my cousin's ranch the wild dog packs are the one's killing sheep and goats. He invites his deer lease holders out a few times a year to hunt down the packs. Unfortunately, these abandoned dogs are too dangerous to be salvaged by any shelter.) -- maryjane Ellie Bentley Wrote: > I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind > that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of > some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? You could try puting a bell on her collar -- mandyoo > You could try puting a bell on her collar. Done that, see above - they have six bells each. >I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind > that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of > some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped. Although you will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat. Adam >>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind >> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Adam Yep, there's a real origin to the old saying 'bell the cat'. The sound warns of the birds no matter how good a prowler he is. I put a bell on my kitten just to keep track of her in the house - she was SO disgusted with me - she couldn't seek up and pounce anymore. But it gave me piece of mind, I least I knew she was just hiding and hadn't gotten outside. -- maryjane Everyone of my cats have a loud bell on them with glow in the dark medals on them so I can see the little devils at night and hear the furballs I got two solid black cats, two tuxedoes cats, one gray cat If I could figure out how to put a constant flashing bulb on them like the planes have and they would not be hurt by it. I would do it in a heart beat >>>I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind >>> that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > -- maryjane NO MORE RETAIL \ wrote: > Everyone of my cats have a loud bell on them with glow in the dark medals on > them so I can see the little devils at night and hear the furballs > I got two solid black cats, two tuxedoes cats, one gray cat > If I could figure out how to put a constant flashing bulb on them like the > planes have and they would not be hurt by it. I would do it in a heart beat We're on the same wavelength. Last summer I took the cats on a walk up into the hills behind my house, right up to the summit. There was a lot of bracken up there - and full of rabbits. When it was time to return home one of the cats wouldn't reappear so I went home with his brother. I returned several hours later . . . and boy was he pleased to see me and come back home. To ensure this didn't happen again I bought a couple of tiny cheap radio-controlled door-bells from Hong Kong. I hung a chime from each cat's collar and put the two doorbells in my pocket and off we went. The wayward one got carried away again when we got to the summit and stayed put somewhere in the bracken - so I couldn't hear is bells jangling. He could me calling, of course, but he was thinking, "Oh, be quiet, don't you know this place if full of bunnies and I'm in paradise!" I reached into my pocket pressed his doorbell button, his chime sounded, and instantly knew where he was hiding. I strode through the waist-high bracken for about 30 yards and there he was, crouched beside a burrow. I understand your thinking behind the flashing bulb! Matthew wrote- >If I could figure out how to put a constant > flashing bulb on them like the planes > have and they would not be hurt by it. I > would do it in a heart beat. There are mini circuits available to activate a flashing LED using a button battery (you have probably seen them in the super market aisles for advertising). They could be attached to a cat's collar and would not add much weight. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') Mike Ii would just worry about possible heat causing a burn plus battery life Matthew wrote- >If I could figure out how to put a constant > flashing bulb on them like the planes > have and they would not be hurt by it. I > would do it in a heart beat. There are mini circuits available to activate a flashing LED using a button battery (you have probably seen them in the super market aisles for advertising). They could be attached to a cat's collar and would not add much weight. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') Matthew wrote: >Mike Ii would just worry about possible > heat causing a burn plus battery life A device like that would not get hot and it would use very little power - batteries should last a long time. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') They are going to hate me :-) but no more hiding in the dark just got to remember what it is when I have one eye open at 4 am Matthew wrote: >Mike Ii would just worry about possible > heat causing a burn plus battery life A device like that would not get hot and it would use very little power - batteries should last a long time. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > Yep, there's a real origin to the old saying 'bell the cat'. The sound > warns of the birds no matter how good a prowler he is. My two cats are the most intelligent I have ever owned. I managed to teach one of them to pee and poo using on one of the two (human) toilets in the house. The other one was too instinctual to learn how to use the toilet, but that doesn't mean to say he isn't bright. He's exceptional at doing what's natural to cats - while his brother can do a number of "human" things. They have both demonstrated the ability to learn how to work around their six bells. > Mine killed sparrows, until I put a bell on him and it certainly helped. Although you > will hear that it does not work, it worked for my cat. It's a good idea, Adam. A year and a half ago I put a bell-collar on each cat, just before letting them out. However, I still found them playing with voles and birds until these creatures expired. So, I went off to one of those craft shops and bought a packet of 10 bells and added 5 more to each cat's collar, making 6 bells in total on each cat. The biggest advantage of all these bells on their collars is that if the cats are anywhere on the property I know where they are. When I call them in for dinner, I can quickly tell which direction they are heading from. But as for stopping them from hunting and killing . . . they have learnt to work with the handicap. I have seen them crouching for hours in front of rabbit burrows, not moving a whisker, just waiting, until the rabbit has fully emerged and then . . . bang! As the cats pounce on their prize I think the jangling of all the bells just makes it all the more bewildering for the poor bunny! Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even let a cat outdoors unleashed. Otherwise, you can expect the local rodent/bird population to be affected. You're can't change a cat's killer instinct. >I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind > that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of > some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device? > Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even let > a cat outdoors unleashed. > You can't change a cat's killer instinct. As you say, the cat has a hunter/killer instinct which can't be changed. This instinct is given natural fulfillment when the cat is allowed to roam free - like his ancestors. The joy my cats exhibit when we go outside is amazing to see. When I let them out in the mornings we then all walk half a mile through open fields to the letter-box. They bound along in front of me as carefree as new-born lambs. And then they bound back up through the fields with me before we go out separate ways for three or four hours until I call them in for their main meal (just before twilight, so they can't vex roosting birds). I couldn't possibly deprive them of their natural pleasure. >> Keep your cats indoors at all times. There should be no reason to even >> let [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > roam free - like his ancestors.... I couldn't possibly > deprive them of their natural pleasure. Buy a harness and a leash and set some time aside to take your cats out. Otherwise, don't be surprised if one day a cat doesn't come home. > I know all cats have a deeply ingrained instinct to hunt. I don't mind > that. It's just the constant killing that I would rather have them [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an end to their going outside and hunting. I'm thinking in terms of > some kind of muzzle or head-guard. Or maybe there's some other device?>> Sonic collars can reduce the number of prey caught by cats, especially birds. They are recommended by the Feline Advisory Bureau (UK). SignatureAlison http://catinfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ http://doginfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ > Sonic collars can reduce the number of prey caught by cats, especially > birds. > They are recommended by the Feline Advisory Bureau (UK). Alison, THANKS VERY MUCH. This is a move in the right direction. I shall go and google and find out about them. Ellie. |
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