Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2006
Veterinary malpractice
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Charlie Wilkes - 15 Mar 2006 13:38 GMT I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives.
http://www.adlaz.org/factsheets/malpractice.html
They suggest letters to the licensing board and the local vets association. Here's what they say about lawsuits:
-------------------------------------------------------------- "The biggest problem with bringing a lawsuit is that, even if you win, you usually do not recover very much money. In this country, an animal is viewed as an item of personal property, and most courts limit recovery to the cost of replacing the companion animal with another animal. Because of the low potential for a large recovery, most lawyers are unable or unwilling to take veterinary malpractice cases on a contingency basis, and it is possible that the pet owner would invest more money in legal fees than can be recovered.
"On the other hand, courts have recently begun to realize that a companion animal is unique and cannot simply be replaced. Courts are beginning to permit owners to recover the "reasonable sentimental value" of the companion animals to the individual owners, as long as the sentiment is not "excessive" or "maudlin." This can increase the potential recovery from a few hundred dollars, to perhaps a few thousand.
"If you are not able to afford a lawyer, then consider going to small claims court, where you can represent yourself. In small claims court, recovery will be limited to "out-of-pocket" expenses. This includes only the money you lost already as a result of the malpractice, and does not include loss of your companion animal's sentimental value. In any lawsuit, you will still be required to secure expert testimony as to what act of negligence the veterinarian committed." --------------------------------------------------------------
That last sentence is the kicker. I've been the plaintiff in a couple of lawsuits. You can't just hand the judge a folder of stuff you found on the Internet. You have to prove something, according to specific legal standards, which takes time and money. And the defendant can call his experts too.
I have been reading the advice to Candace over the past week and wondering how some of you people ever got out of diapers, assuming you have.
Charlie
PawsForThought - 15 Mar 2006 14:54 GMT > I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They suggest letters to the licensing board and the local vets > association. Here's what they say about lawsuits: There have been some new cases showing that some people did win awards. Being in the legal field myself, I have found that people who go through these types of lawsuits (only involving people instead of pets) find that the process itself can cause much emotional distress, and it might not be worth pursuing. It can be quite costly as well. Lawsuits can drag on for a quite a while too. It might be quite difficult to prove that the vet in this case didn't use an appropriate standard of care. Here's another side that might be of interest. You can see how much people have spent on attorney fees and costs incurred.
"The patient had dental surgery, there were complications, and he died. Now his family members are accusing the doctor of negligence and claiming that the episode caused them emotional distress.
Duane Flemming is an animal opthamologist and a lawyer and past president of the American Veterinary Medical Law Association. By Jack Gruber, USA TODAY
It's a typical medical malpractice case - except in this 3-year-old dispute, the patient was a sheepdog named Lucky.
Barry Silver, the attorney for Lucky's owners, says that when the case goes to trial this year in Broward County, Fla., he intends to ask jurors to award hundreds of thousands of dollars to the dog's owners, Adam Riff and his mother, Ellen.
If Silver is successful, Lucky's case would join a series of recent court decisions that essentially have treated animals as human under the law. In a reflection of the special place that pets have come to hold in Americans' hearts, U.S. courts are bucking centuries of legal decisions that have defined animals as property.
In recent years, courts in New York, Maryland and Texas have resolved custody disputes involving pets by deciding what's best for the pet. Judges in 25 states have administered financial trusts set up in pets' names.
And as Lucky's case indicates, there has been another turn in animal law: Courts have begun to take claims of veterinary malpractice seriously.
Since 1997, courts in Kentucky and California have awarded damages to pet owners for loss of companionship, emotional distress and other factors that go beyond the way courts have long assessed animals' worth: by their market value.
That's the standard the Riffs are challenging in their lawsuit against the Welleby Veterinary Center in Broward County.
"I loved Lucky like he was my son, my little boy," says Adam Riff, 26, an Internet marketing salesman.
So for Riff, it was painful to hear an opposing lawyer's argument to a judge, during an unsuccessful attempt to get the lawsuit dismissed, that Lucky "had depreciated" in the eight years after Riff had bought him for $300.
"Like a car," Riff says.
Veterinary malpractice cases have not involved the staggering sums that can be associated with claims against doctors who treat humans.
The largest judgment in favor of a pet owner has been $39,000, which a jury in Orange County, Calif., awarded last year to Marc Bluestone.
His mutt, Shane, died of liver failure after a misdiagnosis. In a verdict that is being appealed by the vet, the jury awarded Bluestone $30,000 for the dog's "unique value" to his owner, and $9,000 for vet bills.
Treating pets like humans
Critics of such judgments sound much like those who warn that multimillion-dollar medical malpractice verdicts for human patients are driving up the cost of health care.
Richard Cupp, a Pepperdine University law professor, says that if courts routinely start to award emotional damages to pet owners, veterinary care will cost more, leading to "more suffering" among pets because "fewer pets will get sent to the vet."
He also fears the movement to treat pets more like humans under the law could lead to an avalanche of far-fetched animal rights lawsuits, such as claims on behalf of beef cattle headed for slaughter or monkeys used in medical research.
The emergence of veterinary malpractice lawsuits is driven not just by Americans' deep emotional bonds with their pets but also by advances in veterinary medicine that have raised expectations that pets will live longer.
The USA's 64 million pet owners now spend more than $18 billion a year on pet health care, according to the American Veterinary Medical Association, which says that the owner of a typical American dog will spend $11,500 on the animal during its lifetime - half of it on medical care. Pet hospitals now have specialists such as cardiologists, neurologists and oncologists.
Steve Wise, a Boston lawyer who has taught animal law at Harvard Law School, notes that veterinarians who help to foster the attachment between owner and pet also benefit financially from it.
"For a vet to charge $1,000 to do a procedure on a dog who has a market value of $10, the only reason anyone would consider paying it is, they don't care what the market value is," Wise says.
Duane Flemming, a veterinarian, lawyer and past president of the American Veterinary Medical Law Association, says vets who promote the emotional bond between owner and pet are hard-pressed to go to court and claim the animal had little value.
"It's a hypocrisy to say, 'Spend more money on animals because they are worth more,' and then not be willing to award more when there's a loss," he says.
Flemming, who practices in Concord, Calif., is an ophthalmologist who says he once performed eye surgery on a one-legged duck.
"You used to go to the vet and get a bill for $20," he says. "Now you go ... and you've got an $18,000 bill. If your dog died, the only possible explanation is that someone did something wrong."
In Houston, Fritz the (late) Persian cat was a patient at an animal hospital that has so many specialists it has an entire wing for aviary care.
"They run out with a gurney and put the animal on" it, says Jeffrey Dorrell, a Houston lawyer who is suing Gulf Coast Veterinary Internists on Fritz's behalf. "It's almost theater. They deliberately raise expectations with the magnificence of their facility."
Fritz was diagnosed with pancreatitis and a cancerous mass in late 2002, the lawsuit says. Gulf Coast vets wanted to treat the pancreatitis first. Two months and many procedures later - including a failed effort to help Fritz gain weight - the tab topped $7,800, the lawsuit says. Then Fritz's owner, Jennifer Beegle, was told to take him home to die.
'Nothing to do' with fee
"The case has nothing to do with what they charged us, although my father is a retired physician, and I will tell you, you pay more to have an MRI done for your animal than what would be charged at the very finest hospital for a human being," she says.
Beegle is seeking a refund of her vet fees. At Gulf Coast, she says, "I saw grown men sobbing and pulling out three and four credit cards. Luckily, my parents had a $50,000 limit on their card. That was the first thing I was asked: What was the limit on my credit card?"
But Beegle, 36, says she would have paid more to save Fritz. She also says she wishes someone would have told her upfront that Fritz should have been put to sleep. "If he was not able to be saved, I never would have put him through this," she says. "I am suing them because he suffered. He had feelings. They will not profit off my cat's pain."
Gulf Coast's attorney, David Knight, says his clients dispute nearly all of Beegle's allegations. He says the conversation about the credit card limit never occurred.
Knight also says the vets who treated Fritz gave "appropriate care under the circumstances, consistent with the appropriate standards of care."
Dorrell, who plans to begin taking depositions this month, says he expects the case to be just as complex as a human malpractice case.
There are other parallels between veterinary malpractice and malpractice cases involving human patients.
Like doctors who treat people, vets express concern that lawsuits will drive up the cost of their malpractice insurance. So far, though, the price of vets' insurance has been stable for a decade, usually at less than $200 a month.
The parallels have not been lost on Dan Bachi, the lawyer representing vets Jeffrey Sands and John Willie in the Florida case involving Lucky the sheepdog.
"If society is at a point where we need to limit damages to people, should we as a society be awarding money for the loss of pets?" Bachi asks.
"And where do you draw the line? Is it dogs, cats? Is it horses? Is it frogs? Is it my pet snake?"
Other big cases
Courts have seriously considered veterinary malpractice cases only in the past few years. Besides the $39,000 judgment awarded to Bluestone in Orange County, two decisions stand out:
· In 1997, a Kentucky jury awarded $15,000 to the owner of a German shepherd, Sheba, who bled to death after surgery. The jury was instructed that the dog could have an intrinsic value beyond its market value, much like an heirloom.
· In 2000, a judge in Costa Mesa, Calif., awarded almost $28,000 in general and other damages to a woman whose Rottweiler, Lonnie, had to have its teeth capped after a bungled dental surgery.
Bluestone may hold the record for an award in a vet malpractice case, but he has spent more than $350,000 taking it to court.
"Any sane attorney would not take veterinary malpractice cases," Silver says. "You spend a long time and a lot of money, and you get nothing back." He says he supports animal rights and takes such cases in order to represent "those who can't speak for themselves."
Bachi says the case is "a significant endeavor financially and emotionally" for the vets.
So why don't the warring parties in Lucky's case find a way to settle?
"These doctors worked hard to save this animal," Bachi says. "They feel victimized by this. They feel falsely accused."
The vets want a jury to decide whether their work fell below accepted standards of care. They say Lucky died from a pre-existing condition that went undiagnosed.
Adam Riff says he has spent $10,000 on the case. His lawsuit alleges that Willie was "defensive and indignant" when the Riffs asked him what went wrong with the anesthesia. Riff says that rather than continue to treat Lucky - who was in an oxygen tent after the dental surgery - Willie sent the Riffs and Lucky to an animal emergency center because it was closing time at Welleby, "and the next day was (Willie's) day off."
Riff says that "if he had just told us what happened and said, 'I'm sorry, forgive me, it was an accident,' we wouldn't be doing this."
CatNipped - 15 Mar 2006 15:44 GMT >I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > recovery to the cost of replacing the companion animal with another > animal. Because of the low potential for a large recovery, most This is changing. Even in relatively backwards Texas (when it comes to animal rights) juries have awarded very large sums of compensation to pet owners for the suffering they experienced when losing a pet.
 Signature Hugs,
CatNipped
See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/
Miami Jones - 15 Mar 2006 16:15 GMT was the procedure necessary was it a good call to move fwd with it, in light of the cats health (im just saying health can be relative to risk) were the inherent risks explained did Candace sign a waiver saying, I understand the risks was the procedure done properly
With people getting surgery, we usually have 2 operators, in case the one is unable to complete the procedure (and we pay for two to be there)
MJ
> >I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 00:56 GMT >was the procedure necessary >was it a good call to move fwd with it, in light of the cats health [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >MJ Yeah, but cats aren't people and money doesn't bring dead cats back to life.
Let's suppose Candace filed suit, hired a crack lawyer to pitch the case, ran the vet out of business and into bankruptcy, walked away with a million bucks, and got invited to appear on "Good Morning America" to tell her story.
Would she then be happy?
Charlie
>> >I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the >> > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> >> See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ Miami Jones - 16 Mar 2006 03:24 GMT The cost of vet care would skyrocket in a matter of one year.
She should take the 1G back, I believe the fella did his best to heal her buddy, don't you think? sure he did.
However; on the same topic when a professional overcharges the public lawsuits are inevitable...it's a vaccuum getting filled. (is why I don't think a cap should be put on any lawsuit)
> >was the procedure necessary > >was it a good call to move fwd with it, in light of the cats health [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >> > >> See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ Brandy Alexandre - 16 Mar 2006 03:41 GMT Miami Jones <iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii@iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> The cost of vet care would skyrocket in a matter of one year. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > public lawsuits are inevitable...it's a vaccuum getting filled. > (is why I don't think a cap should be put on any lawsuit) I mentioned that. The response was soo what, it's all about me.
If anyone wants to see vet care go the way of healthcare, by all means sue for every little thing. As was mentioned, there was no necropsy and no diagnosis of the original presenting problem. Scottie could have been dying anyway and the doxy had nothing to do with it. Yeah, go ahead and drive up vet prices by making their vet insurance increase. Drive good vets out of business or into another line of work, so we get the 20 seconds of HMO-style time and a CEO nixing expensive diagnostic tools playing the waiting and red tape games, hoping the patient will die before they have to lay out any money.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre
--Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^=
Candace - 16 Mar 2006 05:08 GMT > If anyone wants to see vet care go the way of healthcare, by all means > sue for every little thing. As was mentioned, there was no necropsy > and no diagnosis of the original presenting problem. Scottie could > have been dying anyway and the doxy had nothing to do with it. I actually wish that were the case so I wouldn't feel so bad. But I don't think so because when he came home after his week of hospitalization, he was no longer lethargic and no longer unwilling to eat (which were the reasons he went to the vet to begin with). The poor little cat was starving and wanted desperately to eat. He had 5 days where he was able to eat gruel (after his first steroid injection) before he began regurgitating again. That's because his stricture was then developing. It takes a few days for espohagitis to develop into a stricture. But...my point is, his original symptoms were gone. I don't think he had anything terminal wrong with him.
Candace
Brandy Alexandre - 16 Mar 2006 05:29 GMT Candace <maccandace@aol.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> If anyone wants to see vet care go the way of healthcare, by all >> means sue for every little thing. As was mentioned, there was no [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Candace But you don't *know* that's when the stricture was developing. That's an assumption. I'm only saying this because civil suits are based on a preponderance of the evidence, and you haven't got any. I'm not against you wanting justice if negligence was what cause the tragedy. I *am* against lawsuits as a form of the grieving process that, even if lost, will have such a negative impact on vet care. Undoubtedly you will have cats for the rest of your life. Are you willing to pay so much more or get substandard care because the "smart" vets bail, just to seek revenge over a maybe?
 Signature Brandy Alexandre
--Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^=
Candace - 16 Mar 2006 04:55 GMT > The cost of vet care would skyrocket in a matter of one year. > > She should take the 1G back, I believe the fella did his best to heal her > buddy, don't you think? sure he did. His best wasn't very good and he would agree with that.
Candace
Miami Jones - 16 Mar 2006 05:24 GMT I also read your reply to Brandy, I think you know what is right. and we know this will not start a chain reaction of suits against vets. Poor thing, I got ready to post it, but cancelled the post, I don't want add anything to this for you, in the way of hurt. but it's got to hurt worse thinking another vet would not have given the wrong antibiotic. If Im understanding the bottom line now.
of course I see he is open to talk with, have you plainly asked for you whole amount back?...besides this...I can see where a punative reward is in order. This thing didn't need to happen. Im sorry, as I say, that's got to sting a little, but I would think he would be VERY willing to give all of your money back Candace.
MJ
> > The cost of vet care would skyrocket in a matter of one year. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Candace Candace - 16 Mar 2006 05:34 GMT > I also read your reply to Brandy, I think you know what is right. and we > know this will not start a chain reaction of suits against vets. Poor thing, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > MJ Yes, I've asked him and he gave back what he thought was fair...$1K. Not what I think is fair. And, yes, you are right, Barry, I wonder very much how things could have been different by going to a different vet. I actually have 2 vet practices I use, and I called the other one first the day I noticed Scottie being lethargic and not eating. They, however, are not real good about fitting you in and said they couldn't see him until the next day. I had left work early to get him into a vet and I wanted to do it that day as I didn't want to get in trouble at work the next day for needing more time off. So, the second practice I use, the one I went to, is very good about fitting you in no matter what, and even though they were booked solid, they fit us in. I was grateful, how ironic. If the first vet had fit me in or if I had waited until the next day, Scottie might be here right now all happy and healthy. There were several little instances of "fate" that occurred during this whole thing where a different outcome could have easily happened. Apparently, it was in the cards for it to play out this way but, yes, I do feel worse thinking another vet, my other vet, might have been more competent.
Candace
PawsForThought - 16 Mar 2006 14:57 GMT > Yes, I've asked him and he gave back what he thought was fair...$1K. > Not what I think is fair. Candace, can I ask how much of the bill this was? Was this the whole bill?
Candace - 17 Mar 2006 04:30 GMT > > Yes, I've asked him and he gave back what he thought was fair...$1K. > > Not what I think is fair. > > Candace, can I ask how much of the bill this was? Was this the whole > bill? The whole bill was about $3600, I would have to figure out how much of it was post-doxy, probably at least $2500 of it, maybe more, I would think. I'll have to add it up but it depresses me to drag the bills out so I haven't yet. He was hospitalized for 3-4 days before he got doxy and he had had regular x-rays and a full blood panel, all pre-doxy. Post-doxy, he had a barium contrast study, an endoscopy, a couple of steroid shots, a couple of office visits, some other meds.
Candace
PawsForThought - 17 Mar 2006 14:51 GMT > > > Yes, I've asked him and he gave back what he thought was fair...$1K. > > > Not what I think is fair. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Candace I'm so sorry you're having to go through this :( I hope things work out for you, whatever you decide. I think just posting here has educated a lot of people on this drug. I never would have known about it if I hadn't read your posts.
Hang in there, Lauren
Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 06:28 GMT >The cost of vet care would skyrocket in a matter of one year. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >lawsuits are inevitable...it's a vaccuum getting filled. >(is why I don't think a cap should be put on any lawsuit) Yeah, this is a good point. What happens to costs if veterinary standards are raised by big payoffs on malpractice suits?
And what model of care would vets have to adopt to protect themselves?
If Scottie had been a human, he would probably be alive today. He'd have been referred to a specialist whose expertise is focused on a single, narrow bit of medical science. Esophogeal stricture, eh? We'll put you in an ambulance and Dr. So-and-so in Los Angeles will take care of it. That's all he does, so there won't be any mistakes. It will cost $100k, but a human life is at stake.
That model prevails because accumulated medical knowledge is so vast that no single individual can know more than a tiny fraction of the sum.
In a veterinary environment, a single individual often provides one-stop care for a wide range of conditions, not to mention multiple species, without having a network of specialists to consult when complications arise. It's the best care model that remains affordable to the average pet owner, and it is far from perfect, as Candace and many others can attest.
Charlie
>> >was the procedure necessary >> >was it a good call to move fwd with it, in light of the cats health [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> >> >> See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ Nomen Nescio - 16 Mar 2006 09:40 GMT -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
From: Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com>
>Yeah, but cats aren't people and money doesn't bring dead cats back to >life. You keep missing the point, Chuckie. An idiot, who should have known better, screwed up and now there is a loved cat that is not here, anymore, because of it. Candace can't (at least legally): torture him kill him burn his house down etc.
But she CAN keep him from turning a profit on his neglegence.
Not everyone chooses to deal with an event, like this, by twisting up enough herb to erase it from short term memory.
>Let's suppose Candace filed suit, hired a crack lawyer to pitch the >case, ran the vet out of business and into bankruptcy, walked away >with a million bucks, and got invited to appear on "Good Morning >America" to tell her story. > >Would she then be happy? Again, you miss the point. At least from my perspective, NOTHING would make me happy but having my cat back.
But just walking away and letting the a.shole profit from it would be a lot tougher to live with than doing what I could to make him pay. And also from my perspective, getting my $4k back wouldn't be nearly enough.
Candace - 16 Mar 2006 04:53 GMT > was the procedure necessary > was it a good call to move fwd with it, in light of the cats health [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > MJ It wasn't a procedure, it was just an antibiotic being administered orally. I never signed any waiver for anything.
Candace
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 16 Mar 2006 00:09 GMT > In any lawsuit, you will still be required to secure expert testimony as >to what act of negligence the veterinarian committed." [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I have been reading the advice to Candace over the past week and >wondering how some of you people ever got out of diapers, assuming you Hey at least I did tell her the following... "The problem with small claims court is that the Vet will give a load of medical jargon to the judge and will be deemed the expert (unless you brought a specialist of equal credentials). Since the judge won't have a clue he/she will probably side with the doctor."
-mhd
Matthew AKA NMR ( NO MORE RETAIL ) - 16 Mar 2006 00:12 GMT >> In any lawsuit, you will still be required to secure expert testimony as >>to what act of negligence the veterinarian committed." [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you brought a specialist of equal credentials). Since the judge won't > have a clue he/she will probably side with the doctor." People court if you have to she is a pet lover and has the backing and the time of a TV network she calls to find out if she does not know something.
> -mhd Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 00:45 GMT >> In any lawsuit, you will still be required to secure expert testimony as >>to what act of negligence the veterinarian committed." [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >-mhd My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. They are screaming for vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing at stake, whereas Candace does, and vengeance doesn't come cheap -- financially or emotionally.
Charlie
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 02:31 GMT > My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. If you actually read what I wrote, you'd see what a fool you just made of yourself. That's ok. We know reading comprehension isn't your forte.
>They are screaming for > vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing > at stake, whereas Candace does, and vengeance doesn't come cheap -- > financially or emotionally. You're also missing the point that she had a $4000.00 bill she paid to a vet who admitted negligence. She can and should recover most of that money.
-L.
PawsForThought - 16 Mar 2006 15:02 GMT You're also missing the point that she had a $4000.00 bill she paid to
> a vet who admitted negligence. She can and should recover most of that > money. > > -L. Ok, now that I've read further and see what Candace paid, I think it's pretty bad that the vet only is willing to give her back $1,000. IMO, if he was a standup person, he would have refunded the whole thing, since obviously he prescribed a drug that had contraindications in cats that he didn't even know about. How hard would it have been for him to pick up an animal PDR and read about this drug?
IBen Getiner - 17 Mar 2006 12:12 GMT > > My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -L. I say leave it lay. As beloved as our pets are, they are not people. And they will never be recognized as such. Can you imagine coming before a judge (even a whack-o liberal one) with the kind of krap that you are laying down here...!? We have better things to do with our court system (like convicting our inferior african-American brothers of whatever we can find so we can place them where they really belong). Where will it end with people like you? Next, you'll want a full homicide investigation when a cat is found dead on the side of the road!
IBen Getiner
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 03:38 GMT > My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. They are screaming for > vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing > at stake, whereas Candace does, and vengeance doesn't come cheap -- > financially or emotionally. What are you, a troll in training? You can't understand the principal here because you just don't have an affinity or a strong bond with animals- especially cats. I picked up on that during your "bathroom ca"t fiasco.
This is not only about vengeance- its about justice. The vet f.cked up and Candace's cat paid for it with his life. If it happened to my cat, I couldn't let him get away with it. I'd go the distance. I didn't tell Candace anything I wouldn't do myself. I talk it like I walk it.
Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 06:28 GMT >> My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. They are screaming for >> vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >because you just don't have an affinity or a strong bond with animals- >especially cats. I picked up on that during your "bathroom ca"t fiasco. This isn't about who loves cats most. It's about how far to go in pursuing a claim against a veterinarian.
>This is not only about vengeance- its about justice. Do you mean your idea of what constitutes justice, or the reality of justice as administered under Arizona civil law ca. 2006?
>The vet f.cked up and >Candace's cat paid for it with his life. If it happened to my cat, I >couldn't let him get away with it. I'd go the distance. I didn't tell >Candace anything I wouldn't do myself. I talk it like I walk it. Maybe, maybe not. Words are all we have to go by here.
Charlie
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 11:53 GMT > >> My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. They are screaming for > >> vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This isn't about who loves cats most. It's about how far to go in > pursuing a claim against a veterinarian. Its about taking it to a point that she can live with.
> >This is not only about vengeance- its about justice. > > Do you mean your idea of what constitutes justice, or the reality of > justice as administered under Arizona civil law ca. 2006? People have different opinions of justice- that's why there are appeal courts- and if you live in NY, other places that aren't so formal.
> >The vet f.cked up and > >Candace's cat paid for it with his life. If it happened to my cat, I > >couldn't let him get away with it. I'd go the distance. I didn't tell > >Candace anything I wouldn't do myself. I talk it like I walk it. > > Maybe, maybe not. Words are all we have to go by here. Candace's words are good enough for me.
PawsForThought - 16 Mar 2006 17:19 GMT > > My comments were specific to Lyn and Phil. They are screaming for > > vengeance, serving up glib legal certitudes. But they've got nothing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because you just don't have an affinity or a strong bond with animals- > especially cats. I picked up on that during your "bathroom ca"t fiasco. I must have missed that post. Doesn't sound too good :(
> This is not only about vengeance- its about justice. The vet f.cked up and > Candace's cat paid for it with his life. If it happened to my cat, I > couldn't let him get away with it. I'd go the distance. I didn't tell > Candace anything I wouldn't do myself. I talk it like I walk it. This reminds me of a person who had boarded her cat at the vet. When she picked up her cat, the vet had declawed it. I can't remember any of the details like whether or not she tried to sue though. Phil, in regards to the antibiotic given to Candace's cat, how well known are the side effects? Is this a relatively new drug, or something that's been around for a while, and that most vets would know the side effects?
Phil P. - 17 Mar 2006 17:00 GMT "PawsForThought" <mickey4paws@gmail.com> wrote in message
Phil, in
> regards to the antibiotic given to Candace's cat, how well known are > the side effects? Is this a relatively new drug, or something that's > been around for a while, and that most vets would know the side effects? Doxy-induced esophageal strictures have been documented in veterinary and human medical journals for at least 26 years. The warning is also published in veterinary rrug handbooks.
I mentioned this situation to two vets- I didn't even get a chance to go into the details- both instantly thought it was malpractice. That's how well-known doxy-induced esophageal strictures are.
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 02:26 GMT > I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > That last sentence is the kicker. That sentance is exactly what I posted to Candace yesterday or the day before. I told her she would need affidavits from other vets stating the vet in question committed malpractice.
> I've been the plaintiff in a couple > of lawsuits. You can't just hand the judge a folder of stuff you > found on the Internet. You have to prove something, according to > specific legal standards, which takes time and money. And the > defendant can call his experts too. Most lawsuits are settled out of court. One does not have to pay expert witnesses to recover losses.
> I have been reading the advice to Candace over the past week and > wondering how some of you people ever got out of diapers, assuming you > have. You're such an a.shole, Charlie. And yet you still wonder why no woman wants to sleep with you.
-L.
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 03:41 GMT > Most lawsuits are settled out of court. One does not have to pay > expert witnesses to recover losses. He'll probably hold out until he actually gets a subpoena to see how far she's willing to go.
I don't think the vet would like to be known as "the vet who was sued for killing a cat". Even he won, local people would only remember he was sued for malpractice. In a small city like Phoenix, that kind of press could be devastating.
At the very least, I think she should get back all the fees charged after the cat was given the doxy.
> > I have been reading the advice to Candace over the past week and > > wondering how some of you people ever got out of diapers, assuming you > > have. > > You're such an a.shole, Charlie. And yet you still wonder why no woman > wants to sleep with you. lol.
Miami Jones - 16 Mar 2006 03:45 GMT "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
> He'll probably hold out until he actually gets a subpoena to see how far > she's willing to go. good point, this could also a fleece of sorts
Brandy Alexandre - 16 Mar 2006 05:31 GMT Miami Jones <iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii@iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message >> He'll probably hold out until he actually gets a subpoena to see >> how far she's willing to go. > > good point, this could also a fleece of sorts Eh? It's small claims if it's anything, depending on the limit in Maricopa County. Subpeona is highly unlikely. A service by the marshall or some minimum wage process server is more likely.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre
--Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^=
Candace - 16 Mar 2006 05:01 GMT > I don't think the vet would like to be known as "the > vet who was sued for killing a cat". Even he won, local people would only > remember he was sued for malpractice. In a small city like Phoenix, that > kind of press could be devastating. Oops, gotta correct you on this one. Phoenix is the 5th largest city in the US. It's a big 'un. Vets are a dime a dozen here. Lucky me, and lucky Scottie, that I found a quack.
> At the very least, I think she should get back all the fees charged after > the cat was given the doxy. That's what I personally think would be fair and that was my suggestion to the vet. He did not concur.
Candace
Brandy Alexandre - 16 Mar 2006 05:33 GMT Candace <maccandace@aol.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> I don't think the vet would like to be known as "the >> vet who was sued for killing a cat". Even he won, local people [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Candace Among Phil many errors. How in the world can anyone who's in the real world think Phoenix is small by any standard?
I don't think your vet is a quack. He has just never had a problem and didn't read the book that deeply. It's sad, but it's not like he tried to spay a male.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre
--Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^=
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 11:54 GMT > Candace <maccandace@aol.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Among Phil many errors. How in the world can anyone who's in the real > world think Phoenix is small by any standard? I'm a New Yorker, sleaze. Compared to NYC, Phoenix is small. If you finished high school geography you would know that.
Joe Canuck - 16 Mar 2006 14:32 GMT >> Candace <maccandace@aol.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'm a New Yorker, sleaze. Compared to NYC, Phoenix is small. If you > finished high school geography you would know that. Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil.
Hell yes, NYC is BIG.
Back to school for Brandy!
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 16 Mar 2006 17:13 GMT >Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil. To a Canadian 1.5 mil is big. :-)
-mhd
Brandy Alexandre - 16 Mar 2006 18:57 GMT <hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>>Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 >>mil. > > To a Canadian 1.5 mil is big. :-) > > -mhd What a lame backpedal. I don't care about comparison's to other big cities, the point is that Phoenix is by no means a small one. Even Phil would admit Atlanta is big, but it's not even half the size of Phoenix, so where ddoes that leave his stupid statement? With all his other stupid, uneducated statements.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre
-- Everything tastes better with cat hair in it. =^.^=
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 19:51 GMT With all his
> other stupid, uneducated statements. Uneducated??? ROTFLMAO! That's hilarious coming from a high school drop out!
Joe Canuck - 17 Mar 2006 03:41 GMT > With all his >> other stupid, uneducated statements. > > Uneducated??? ROTFLMAO! That's hilarious coming from a high school drop > out! Perhaps she considers her years in porno an 'education'.
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 21:58 GMT > Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil. I am wondering if those stats are Phoenix/Scottsdale and surrounding communities? Phoenix itself does't seem that big to me when I have visited there. -L.
Candace - 17 Mar 2006 04:43 GMT > > Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil. > > I am wondering if those stats are Phoenix/Scottsdale and surrounding > communities? Phoenix itself does't seem that big to me when I have > visited there. > -L. Phoenix is around 1.5 million, the whole "Valley of the Sun" is approximately 3 million...that would include Scottsdale, Tempe (home of Arizona State University), Mesa (the 3rd largest city in AZ itself), Glendale, and several other smaller cities.
Candace
Phil P. - 17 Mar 2006 16:59 GMT > > Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil. > > I am wondering if those stats are Phoenix/Scottsdale and surrounding > communities? Phoenix itself does't seem that big to me when I have > visited there. > -L. That was my impression, also.
Actually the Bronx alone is 42 square miles, Queens is almost 3x the size of the Bronx- over 100 square miles- Brooklyn is also huge. Manhattan itself is about 30 sq. miles.
Phil P. - 17 Mar 2006 17:04 GMT > > Yes, even Canadians know that... NYC ~8 mil, where Phoenix is ~1.5 mil. > > I am wondering if those stats are Phoenix/Scottsdale and surrounding > communities? Phoenix itself does't seem that big to me when I have > visited there. > -L. Actually the Bronx alone is 42 square miles, Queens is almost 3x the size of the Bronx- over 100 square miles- Brooklyn is also huge. Manhattan itself is about 30 sq. miles.
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 11:52 GMT > > I don't think the vet would like to be known as "the > > vet who was sued for killing a cat". Even he won, local people would only [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oops, gotta correct you on this one. Phoenix is the 5th largest city > in the US. It's a big 'un. To a New Yorker, Phoenix is small. ;)
Vets are a dime a dozen here. Lucky me,
> and lucky Scottie, that I found a quack. Personally, I think he's a sleaze because he didn't even mention balloon dilation. To opt for it was your decision- not his. He didn't mention it probably because he doesn't perform them and another vet would have probably told you the stricture was caused by improperly administered doxy.
> > At the very least, I think she should get back all the fees charged after > > the cat was given the doxy. > > That's what I personally think would be fair and that was my suggestion > to the vet. He did not concur. If you can't get it all back, at least you can make him spend most of it so he doesn't profit from his incompetence and Scottie's death. You can sue him without a lawyer, but if you sue him in his personal and corporate capacity, he must be represented by a lawyer- which should cost him at least $2-3K. His best case scenario would be breaking even- not to mention the bad press. If you didn't sign a settlement agreement, I'd go for it. I think he'll fold- at least if he's smart he will.
Phil
Candace - 17 Mar 2006 04:33 GMT > To a New Yorker, Phoenix is small. ;) Oh, true, I'm not sure I knew you were a New Yorker :)
Candace
Phil P. - 17 Mar 2006 16:58 GMT > > To a New Yorker, Phoenix is small. ;) > > Oh, true, I'm not sure I knew you were a New Yorker :) Yep- born and bred in the Bronx. I live in Jersey now. No matter where a New Yorker lives, they always consider themselves New Yorkers! ;)
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 10:01 GMT > > Most lawsuits are settled out of court. One does not have to pay > > expert witnesses to recover losses. > > He'll probably hold out until he actually gets a subpoena to see how far > she's willing to go. I doubt it. He already offered 1K. and admitted culpability. I suspect he'd be willing to negotiate for the amount post-doxy, as you stated, or minimally, half of the bill. Hiring a lawyer will only cost him more money.
-L.
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 12:10 GMT > > > Most lawsuits are settled out of court. One does not have to pay > > > expert witnesses to recover losses. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stated, or minimally, half of the bill. Hiring a lawyer will only cost > him more money. It would cost him more to fight and win than it would to settle for the fees post doxy.
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 18:43 GMT > It would cost him more to fight and win than it would to settle for the fees > post doxy. Exactly. -L.
PawsForThought - 16 Mar 2006 15:07 GMT > > Most lawsuits are settled out of court. One does not have to pay > > expert witnesses to recover losses. > > He'll probably hold out until he actually gets a subpoena to see how far > she's willing to go. We always send a letter before we actually file a lawsuit. Many times this can bring about a resolution that includes settlement. I would highly recommend having an attorney send a demand letter first, before filing any lawsuit. Often this type of letter will have a much greater impact than if the person were to try settling with the vet herself. Some attorneys will just charge for the time they put into writing the letter, usually an hour or so of attorney time, so maybe $150 to $300, depending upon the attorney's hourly rate.
Lauren
Miami Jones - 16 Mar 2006 16:28 GMT >"PawsForThought" <mickey4paws@gmail.com> wrote in..
>Often this type of letter will have a much greater > impact than if the person were to try settling with the vet herself. > Some attorneys will just charge for the time they put into writing the > letter, usually an hour or so of attorney time, so maybe $150 to $300, > depending upon the attorney's hourly rate. true, however, can you imagine the surprise the quack vet would have when the sherrif's department rolls up outside his practice during business hours and hands him a thick envelope. then later after the quacks customers leave...he opens it, and his eyes jump down and see an amount like...
$400,000.00
he's gonna crap a brick
Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 06:28 GMT >> I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the >> Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >You're such an a.shole, Charlie. And yet you still wonder why no woman >wants to sleep with you. You are cranky tonight, Lyn. Get someone to clean the poo out of your diapers and we'll talk some more.
Charlie
Nomen Nescio - 16 Mar 2006 09:00 GMT -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
From: Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com>
>You are cranky tonight, Lyn. Get someone to clean the poo out of your >diapers and we'll talk some more. Lyn is having a cranky life. That's what happens when one lacks the character to follow through on a course of action that one knows is the RIGHT thing to do. It leaves a stench to one's soul that can never be washed off. And that might be the best reason I could give Candace for following through on this......to keep from turning into a "Lyn".
From: "-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> Message-ID: <1142074016.602640.118020@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
>It's amazing how much a battle will take out of you. I pride myself in >thinking I'd fight for justice when in reality, when I was faced with a >situation that could have been a major case, I just didn't have any >fight left in me. I still kind of kick myself in the a.s because I >know the perp is probably still committing the same violations. >-L. Candace - 16 Mar 2006 05:26 GMT > I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. > > http://www.adlaz.org/factsheets/malpractice.html Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not decided yet. The vet credited my credit card $1K yesterday. I feel like I need to take a few weeks to decide what to do further. There definitely is an emotional aspect involved and it won't hurt to wait a few weeks and think about it. I already have the evidence I would need if I proceed.
I am trying to be logical and rational, though. I posted about this in alt.med.veterinary under a thread called, "Improper Doxycycline Administration Kills Cats." If you read that newsgroup, you have probably read posts by VetinNZ, who seems like a competent, decent guy. This is what he responded to me:
"Unfortunately it is not common enough knowledge as it takes time for this sort of information to trickle through to all members of the profession. It has only been recognised as a problem in cats in the past few years (studies documenting such cases I have seen are dated later than year 2000) and although the info has been doing the rounds on the internet and has been known about in academic circles it is only more recently that the average practitioner has become aware of this. The info has not yet reached the drug information leaflet that comes with the drug (atleast not in NZ) and it is not mentioned as a possible side effect in many of the 2004 veterinary pharmacy books around my clinic. It is mentioned in my 2005 UK small animal formulary however. It is a shame that this sort of information can not be more readily dispersed to the whole profession, especially such an important topic as this. I believe the profession lets itself down in not ensuring this sort of information reaches all practitioners quickly. Basically it is left up to individual practitioners to keep themselves upto date but this very much depends upon what sources of info they use. The drug manufacturers should be responsible for updating vets as soon as info is available. Perhaps in the USA this has been the case but not so in NZ. In New Zealand we are fortunate to have a doxycycline paste for cats which is much safer but for this reason few vets in NZ are aware of the problem with tablets. I myself learnt of this problem a few years ago when surfing the internet but i have still not seen mention of it in the vet journals that i read. I know it will have been mentioned in many but it has not appeared in the ones I read regularly. I suppose I can take some blame for not passing the info I learnt onto one of the vet journals. I guess that is the problem, no one has taken the responsibility for dispersing this sort of info."
and:
"Yep its very difficult to keep up with all the latest info. As far as doxy goes you can simply feed it with food rather than having to chase it with water. I believer tablets cut in half are a bigger risk as the sharp edges will likley slow transit time down the oesophagus and will also put the
unprotected pill surface in contact with the oesophageal mucosa. Dont be too hard on your vets for not knowing this as it is relatively recent proven info in cats though has been suspected for longer. I think it is the profession as a whole that is responsible for not having an efficient system for distributing this sort of info to all practitioners. I am sorry you had to go through this with your own cat. "
So...I don't know. Some say it's common knowledge, he says not, my (former) vet says not. I do wonder at the lack of response from the many other vets who post regularly over there. Either they didn't find the topic interesting, or they didn't know about the problem themselves and didn't want to comment on it, or...they didn't want to implicate a fellow vet. The latter is how human docs work very often...they might think another doc is a major quack but they aren't gonna admit it and testify against him because they don't want the same thing to happen to them at another time.
Candace
Charlie Wilkes - 16 Mar 2006 06:56 GMT >> I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the >> Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not >decided yet. The vet credited my credit card $1K yesterday. I feel Did he do that without your general release???
>like I need to take a few weeks to decide what to do further. There >definitely is an emotional aspect involved and it won't hurt to wait a >few weeks and think about it. I already have the evidence I would need >if I proceed. Wise.
>I am trying to be logical and rational, though. I posted about this in >alt.med.veterinary under a thread called, "Improper Doxycycline >Administration Kills Cats." If you read that newsgroup, you have >probably read posts by VetinNZ, who seems like a competent, decent guy. > This is what he responded to me: [snip]
Yes. His comments tie in with what I've been thinking, Candace. I just posted some comments on this, and why I think veterinary "malpractice" is so common.
If you can do something that improves awareness of this issue amongst vets, you will thereby create a meaningful memorial for Scottie -- one that makes his death the direct cause of positive action aimed at sustaining the health of other cats. I would suggest a web site with links to all the information you found on this particular complication.
>So...I don't know. Some say it's common knowledge, he says not, my >(former) vet says not. I do wonder at the lack of response from the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >testify against him because they don't want the same thing to happen to >them at another time. That's not surprising, if you think about it, and it's not a thuggish code of silence. It's an awareness of professional responsibility.
Lyn and Phil -- or myself for that matter -- can spew whatever we want, and if it's nonsense, so what? But a vet who posts on this matter is a professional offering an expert opinion. Such an individual might be subpoenaed and made to depose a statement elaborating on whatever was posted. Or (more likely perhaps) another vet, regarding the comments as irresponsible, might forward them to the attention of the local association. It could start a brou-ha-ha.
Charlie
-L. - 16 Mar 2006 10:46 GMT > Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem > unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not > decided yet. The vet credited my credit card $1K yesterday. Did he do so with your permission? If you accept it, that may be all you will ever get.
> I feel > like I need to take a few weeks to decide what to do further. There > definitely is an emotional aspect involved and it won't hurt to wait a > few weeks and think about it. I agree. There is no hurry to act further. I am still concerned about the credit, though.
> I already have the evidence I would need > if I proceed. [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > testify against him because they don't want the same thing to happen to > them at another time. Oh hell, thay all cover each other's a.ses. The part about the info not being dispersed is bullshit. As a scientist (and I consider all vets, doctors and medical professionals to be scientists), keeping abreast of current information is *critical* to your profession. There is simply no excuse for this guy not knowing how to use this drug.
There are a couple points to kjeep in mind. Misprescribing a drug is always considered malpractice. If the professional isn't 100% sure of dosage and administration, they should check the formulary. Even as a vet tech you NEVER administer a drug unless you are 100% sure that it is the right drug given in the proper manner. I have even questioned doctor's (vet's) orders that have seemed odd for one reason or another - that's how ingrained it was to me to be sure what I was doing was the right thing.
Secondly, he's admitted he is wrong It is only the amount of settlement that has to be negotiated.
As for filing with the vet board - it's up to you, but in my opinion, this was a pretty grievous mistake. I think it needs to be documented. One thing I look for when choosing a vet is whether or not they have grievances filed against them. These are the sort of mistakes people need to know about in choosing a vet (prescribing mistakes).
Best of luck to you. I know it's emotionally draining. I'll keep you in my thoughts. -L.
Candace - 17 Mar 2006 04:36 GMT > > Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem > > unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not > > decided yet. The vet credited my credit card $1K yesterday. > > Did he do so with your permission? If you accept it, that may be all > you will ever get. I didn't say he couldn't so I guess it was implied consent. I never signed any sort of settlement or anything, though, and when we hung up he was aware that $1K was not an amount I was pleased with.
Candace
-L. - 17 Mar 2006 07:33 GMT > > > Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem > > > unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > signed any sort of settlement or anything, though, and when we hung up > he was aware that $1K was not an amount I was pleased with. In that case, the longer you wait to do anything else, the less favorable it is to your case. If you sit on 1K for 6 months and then try to collect more, you will be SOL. I would send him a letter telling him that you received the 1K credit but you do not feel that 1K is enough compensation - as you stated in your phone conversation on whatever date - and never agreed to accept it as compensation. State the amount you are seeking, and justify why (post-doxy). See what he does. He's trying to limit his losses and knows if he pays you that now, you have little ground to stand on if you try to get more later.
-L.
Miami Jones - 17 Mar 2006 11:21 GMT "-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> wrote in message
> telling him that you received the 1K credit but you do not feel that 1K > is enough compensation - as you stated in your phone conversation on that's right Lyn, pussy foot around with it.
call him on the phone? he'd have to drive me to the damn bank! get real!
i want my fuckin money back goddammit! you killed my f.cking cat!
if he still refuses, take part of the 1k she got back and dun him for $400,000 dollars. call it, punative damages. [i'd spend 400 to recover the balance,(at a minimum)]
all this nice polite crap does not work I thought the 1G was the whole amt
lookin at it now the 1G was an insult. it was also an admission on his part.
Charlie Wilkes - 17 Mar 2006 12:11 GMT >"-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >all this nice polite crap does not work It depends on how a person wants to spend their time. It's $1,000 for a few phone calls. The next installment might not come so easily.
There are people in this group who would love nothing better than to make an obsession out of a small-time lawsuit, especially if they thought they could really f.ck up someone's life out of the deal. I don't think Candace is like that.
Charlie
>I thought the 1G was the whole amt > >lookin at it now the 1G was an insult. it was also an admission on his part. Phil P. - 17 Mar 2006 17:00 GMT > It depends on how a person wants to spend their time. It's $1,000 for > a few phone calls. The next installment might not come so easily. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thought they could really f.ck up someone's life out of the deal. I > don't think Candace is like that. Zoom- right over! The principal escapes your lighten-quick perception. Its not only about the money or f.cking up someone's life- its about a cat who suffered and died needlessly and a vet whose trying to sleaze out it cheaply.
Personally, I rather f.ck up his life than see him f.ck up any more cats' and dogs' lives- but that's me.
Miami Jones - 17 Mar 2006 17:55 GMT well you're right about the suit, but the idea is that dude should give her money back.
i've been thinking about it all morning, I think he is less of a man for not stepping up.
> >"-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > >lookin at it now the 1G was an insult. it was also an admission on his part. -L. - 17 Mar 2006 18:20 GMT > "-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > he'd have to drive me to the damn bank! > get real! Bar, hon. Read again. I said write him a letter. Everything has to be documented on paper.
> i want my fuckin money back goddammit! > you killed my f.cking cat! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > lookin at it now the 1G was an insult. it was also an admission on his part. Of course 1"G" is an insult. He threw it at her to shut her up....that's why he hurried up and did the credit.
-L.
Miami Jones - 17 Mar 2006 19:39 GMT yah but, i read what you wrote LYN! lol
I think the more time that passes, the less effectual candace showing her tail will be. but showing your tail does work, but timing is everything. You show it too soon...and you get no. You show it too late...you get no.
but if at just the right time, a few days after what he has done sinks in...you fall in while his practice is busy...make a scene...demand payment right then.
for example. I had a fella who owed me money, right much money really, over 10G. all the attorneys sat down, got the pleasantries out the way..we came to an agreement.
I say..well let's have it!
everyone in the room look horribly shocked. they say.. well...let's wait till...I interrupt them...here...I say... draw up the contingency..I want my money today.
I eyeballed the man who owed me money, and said, you don't have a problem paying me today do you?...what could he say..He says no...I say well you write the check, Ill sign the paper your attorney writes.
it took all of 20 mins...to finalize my payment, I was at the bank before they got home.
I don't believe in all these hold ups, and sandbagging etc.. I know sometimes it is a standard courtesy... to do things a certain way, but... what was standard about what was done to Candace.
We better put this thing away, I feel like we might be wringing the nose so to say, and that just makes blood.
Forcing wrath only brings strife.
> > "-L." <gentleboa@peacemail.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -L. Charlie Wilkes - 17 Mar 2006 12:01 GMT >> > Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem >> > unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Candace I quite sure the onus is on him to get a general release, Candace.
Charlie
PawsForThought - 17 Mar 2006 14:51 GMT > > > Yes, this is where I got my preliminary information...that made it seem > > > unlikely that contacting a lawyer would be fruitful. I have not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Candace As long as he's not requiring you to sign anything, then you should be fine. I would recommend against signing anything with this vet unless, or until, you are fully satisfied.
Phil P. - 16 Mar 2006 12:02 GMT > > I found this quite interesting, especially as it is published by the > > Animal Defense League of Arizona, where Candace lives. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > (studies > documenting such cases I have seen are dated later than year 2000) Must be a young vet or he only reads NZ journals.
Eur Surg Res. 1980;12(4):270-82. "Esophageal lesions caused by orally administered drugs. An experimental study in the cat."
Laryngoscope. 1983 Feb;93(2):184-7. "Tetracycline induced esophageal ulcers. a clinical and experimental study."
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