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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2004Vet not detecting pregnancy
I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have expected myself or the vet to know. We've been fostering cats since December. On Feb 5 this year, we took a cat -- perhaps 2 years old -- not much was known about her, except that her 91-year-old owner had died and that the house was full of unspayed/unneutered cats and dogs. Someone had said that she might be pregnant. About a month later, she was at the vet for a checkup, and the vet said that she didn't seem to be pregnant, unless the pregnancy was early along. So on Monday (March 22) she went in to be spayed. When the volunteer brought her home last night, she said that the vet discovered when he opened her that she was indeed pregnant, and that he'd had to terminate the pregnancy. Now, adding up 22 + 23 + an unknown number of days before she arrived, and we're getting rather close to the 60-63 day gestation period. The only thing that I noticed was that she had a voracious appetite. I've felt her tummy, but never noticed anything unusual. Was this vet really careless in starting a spaying operation without checking, or is it an easy mistake to make? I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. Marion Marion, do not feel bad. As you well know for fostering, there are so many unwanted cats in the world. This little cat did not "know" she was pregnant and wasn't expecting something in the way we would. She will be more comfortable now and a happy kitty. Do not dwell on that which you can't change, just enjoy this little cat until she finds a forever home. Karen > I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have > expected myself or the vet to know. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. > Marion > I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have > expected myself or the vet to know. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. > Marion If there was ANY doubt at all, the vet should have x-ray'd. This isn't your fault, so don't feel bad.  Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck >I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have >expected myself or the vet to know. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. >Marion Don't feel bad. I agree that if the cat was in the latter stages of pregnancy, the vet really should have noticed it, but again, it's not that unusual, especially if you took her to a vet that does a high volume of spays. Don't start dwelling on it as a moral issue, either. It's not that unusual to spay a pregnant cat--it's not right, but neither is killing healthy kittens already born, which is exactly what we do in this country. The cat really doesn't know the difference, and after her hormones settle down, she'll be a much happier cat. Hope she gets a good home. Sherry > I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have > expected myself or the vet to know. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. > Marion We routinely spay pregnant cats right up to term. It's not at all unusual. And, it would never occur to us to call an owner and ask them if they *really* wanted their pregnant cat spayed. An owner usually knows if the cat is PG or not. And if they "don't", it usually means that they really *do*, but don't want to tell us because then it would somehow involve them in the decision of euthanizing the babies. There are so many cats killed in this country because of pet overpopulation that adding those kittens *does* involve euthanasia of healthy animals---just not those particular ones. It would be nice to live unaware of that, but it's the truth. For every kitten born, that means another cat somewhere has to die. Spaying your cat saved lives. If they know anything at all, the kittens were not aware of what happened to them. All they know is that they were in a warm dark place and then maybe they know they weren't. Euthanizing an adult cat involves no such serene death. The cat is fully conscious of the needle going in, even if they are unconscious by the time it's had it's full efects. You did the right thing. Do it again if you have to. The only solution to pet overpopulation is to spay and neuter. And, that includes terminating many pregnancies. Campus Cats routinely spays pregnant cats, as does the local feral cat spay/neuter clinic. There are so many more cats than laps out there, we feel it is wrong not to spay. That said, our vet chickened out for the first time in the 10 years we've been working together and opted out of spaying a tame preggie cat we rescued. So now we have a cat and four kittens to find homes for. Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats Seattle << Campus Cats routinely spays pregnant cats, as does the local feral cat spay/neuter clinic. >> That's what I was going to say. I've been volunteering a little for a TNR group and they do it all the time. Yes, it's sad but it's necessary for the "greater good." One of the higher-ups in this group told me they neutered 550 cats in Feb. and there were far more fetuses than cats since kitten season has officially started. You just can't save them all, unfortunately, especially the unborn. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) | [Sharon Talbert:] |> Campus Cats routinely spays pregnant cats, as does the local feral |> cat spay/neuter clinic. That's the rule just about everywhere, especially for TNR people. The exceptions are found among traditional rescue organizations. | One of the higher-ups in this group told me they neutered 550 cats in | Feb. and there were far more fetuses than cats since kitten season has | officially started. Yep, despite the severe winter. One cat we've been after for a while (with no success) had her litter in January - 5, and all survived, amazingly enough. | You just can't save them all, unfortunately, especially the unborn. There are other kinds of "mistakes", too. Two years ago, we caught the last intact female of a colony (another very elusive one). It was quite by accident, so it took two days to set up an appointment at the Humane Society. When we picked her up, the obvious question "Was she pregnant?" was answered with "No, she's nursing". Say what? She never even looked pregnant! We set up another appointment with a feral specialist in the city for the next day. He opined that he had delivered very recently. Since it was already three days at this point, that meant we had probably killed the litter. So, keep her for the standard 72 hours to make sure she's okay, or release her now on the chance that she might save some kittens? You make the call. | [Sharon Talbert:] |> Campus Cats routinely spays pregnant cats, as does the local feral |> cat spay/neuter clinic. That's the rule just about everywhere, especially for TNR people. The exceptions are found among traditional rescue organizations. | One of the higher-ups in this group told me they neutered 550 cats in | Feb. and there were far more fetuses than cats since kitten season has | officially started. Yep, despite the severe winter. One cat we've been after for a while (with no success) had her litter in January - 5, and all survived, amazingly enough. | You just can't save them all, unfortunately, especially the unborn. There are other kinds of "mistakes", too. Two years ago, we caught the last intact female of a colony (another very elusive one). It was quite by accident, so it took two days to set up an appointment at the Humane Society. When we picked her up, the obvious question "Was she pregnant?" was answered with "No, she's nursing". Say what? She never even looked pregnant! We set up another appointment with a feral specialist in the city for the next day. He opined that she had delivered very recently, less than two weeks. Since it was already three days at this point, that meant we had probably killed the litter. So, keep her for the standard 72 hours to make sure she's okay, or release her now on the chance that she might save some kittens? You make the call. It is upsetting to catch a lactating cat. I am still conflicted on what to do in such a case and would be interested in seeing some debate on that issue (not the spay/abort issue, but nursing momcat issue). Campus Cats tries to check out the cat in the trap, for signs of lactation, but it is not always easily done. If we discover a cat is nursing, we go on a treasure hunt for the kittens, who are bound to be close by. Newborns are hard to find because they tend to sleep and only respond by crying if they are touched or if they are in dire straits. Toddlers are easier, because they will respond to a meow (yes, I prowl around meowing) and are even likely to come to you. I once rescued a litter of 3-week kittens by first meowing like a fool, then following the kittens' mews until I located the mountain of junk they were nested in and simply stuck my flashlight and arm in and meowed some more. The kittens all toddled right into my hand, even the little guy who apparently had been attacked by a rat and had a bad leg. The kittens all survived and were reunited with their spayed mom the next day, with just a few bottle feedings to tide them over. I know of other rescuers who have no compunction about trapping a lactating momcat, holding her overnight after spay, then releasing her to tend her kittens. In most cases, the kittens survive. But then our weather is on the temperate side. Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats Seattle Mar 2004: > It is upsetting to catch a lactating cat. I am still conflicted on > what to do in such a case and would be interested in seeing some > debate on that issue (not the spay/abort issue, but nursing momcat > issue). I'd be interested in seeing more on this, too. In Arjun's case that he posted, I'd be torn. Then again, I've been torn over many situations as I'm very inexperienced. I also think (and have been told) that you make many "mistakes" even if you are a seasoned trapper. I made one that still keeps me awake at night sometimes (not the trapping of a neighbors cat -- he's ok.) There are so many snap decisions you seem to have to make when you commit to the welfare of these beautiful animals. SignatureCheryl | In Arjun's case that he posted, I'd be torn. Actually, the decision was even harder than I indicated. The cat in question was also a candidate for "forced" socialization. She was very timid, seen only on occasion. She was also the omega cat of the colony, and we never knew if she got enough food. When we caught her, the basic plan was to keep her. The unexpected litter changed everything. | I also think (and have been told) that you make many "mistakes" even | if you are a seasoned trapper. I agree (speaking as someone who could lay claim to being a seasoned trapper.) | I made one that still keeps me awake at night sometimes I have plenty of "blood on my hands". It can be a grim business. | There are so many snap decisions you seem to have to make when you | commit to the welfare of these beautiful animals. It can be even worse when what looked like a good plan goes awry. Some contingency comes up that you haven't anticipated (or, had decided that it was too unlikely/show-stopping/resource-intensive to cater for.) In Summer '02, we helped the ASPCA clear out a collector's apartment. (This aired as part of episode #214 on the Animal Precinct show, btw.) We lost a cat under tragic circumstances. Strcitly speaking, it was an accident. But, as the experts, we should have been able to do better. >| In Arjun's case that he posted, I'd be torn. > > Actually, the decision was even harder than I indicated. > :( I don't even want to know. Those decisions are personal ones based on the greater good *at the time* regardless of what you find out later. Those are what you learn by. I myself am still trying to muster up courage to continue doing what I set out to do, even after getting shook up over the last time. I know I have to, and these conversations help. > In Summer '02, we helped the ASPCA clear out a collector's apartment. > (This aired as part of episode #214 on the Animal Precinct show, btw.) > We lost a cat under tragic circumstances. Strcitly speaking, it was an > accident. But, as the experts, we should have been able to do better. Ya know, I never saw that episode and I watched for it for a long time. That show is hard to watch. :( SignatureCheryl |>| In Arjun's case that he posted, I'd be torn. |> |> Actually, the decision was even harder than I indicated. |> | :( I don't even want to know. Those decisions are personal ones based on | the greater good *at the time* regardless of what you find out later. The caretaker of the colony (a good friend of mine) agonized for a few hours and then decided to release her. The odds were very much against any of the litter surviving - and the consensus among colleagues was to stick to the original plan of keeping her - but my friend just couldn't stomach the idea of abandoning a litter so cold-bloodedly. I don't blame her. In some sense, it was all our fault - for not having tried hard enough to catch her earlier. (As a matter of fact among my her cats are two of this cat's littermates, caught as kittens the summer before.) It might have been different if we had a chance of locating the litter ourselves (as Sharon posted) but we couldn't - the litter was obviously inside an abandoned building that the city had sealed off very efficiently (to keep homeless people out.) Well, one kitten survived. We nearly didn't do right by him either. He was over 3 months old when we finally got around to catching him. He's my cat Phoenix. You can see pictures of Ollie (the mother) at http://www.picturetrail.com/aray/ The albums "Ferals", "Colony 1", and "In Transit". Phoenix has an album to himself ("The Little One") but he's in many. The title page picture of the "Ferals" album is one of Ollie (with another cat). It was taken in late February 2002, when she must have been nearing term. |> In Summer '02, we helped the ASPCA clear out a collector's apartment. |> (This aired as part of episode #214 on the Animal Precinct show, btw.) | Ya know, I never saw that episode and I watched for it for a long time. You missed it again - they aired a rerun last week. (I found out only from a hysterical message on my answering machine "Hey, Arjun, I saw you on TV!!!"). > Well, one kitten survived. > > We nearly didn't do right by him either. He was over 3 months old > when we finally got around to catching him. He's my cat Phoenix. > :)) He is very loved I already know. <sigh> > You can see pictures of Ollie (the mother) at > > http://www.picturetrail.com/aray/ [Going to check out pics] >| Ya know, I never saw that episode and I watched for it for a long >| time. > > You missed it again - they aired a rerun last week. (I found out only > from a hysterical message on my answering machine "Hey, Arjun, I saw > you on TV!!!"). LOL I can picture that.. hehe. Anyone I know? LOL Since AP has added so many animal rescue shows I haven't watched many of them. They are all sad, but some have happy endings, but the sad ones I just can't deal with at this point in my life. SignatureCheryl << In Summer '02, we helped the ASPCA clear out a collector's apartment. (This aired as part of episode #214 on the Animal Precinct show, btw.) We lost a cat under tragic circumstances. Strcitly speaking, it was an accident. But, as the experts, we should have been able to do better. A man I came in contact a few years back, who was with the Phoenix ASPCA, Dave Nora, I believe is his name, said something to me to the effect of the more animals you help, the more mistakes you make. He said it more eloquently but I can never remember how he said it exactly. He just said he tried to help as many cats as he could and sometimes something bad would happen but he had the greater good in mind. Of course, it's so sad and tragic for the ones it happens to but I guess it's just in the numbers. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) | Dave Nora, I believe is his name, said something to me to the effect of | the more animals you help, the more mistakes you make. How true. | [...] sometimes something bad would happen but he had the greater good | in mind. Of course, it's so sad and tragic for the ones it happens to | but I guess it's just in the numbers. And in the occasional happy endings. Last Summer, we did a project at Brookdale Hospital in eastern Brooklyn. While trapping about 20 cats, we noticed that one cat, maybe 5-6 months old, probably wasn't well. She just sat there at the base of a tree (in the garden that was the colony's "home" behind one of the buildings), completely ignoring us, the traps and the commotion. Eventually we went around to her and were able to pick her up and put her in a trap. This was an unexpected contingency - a medical case. The vet lined up by the colony caretakers wasn't in that day. And there was a problem in keeping this cat along with the others in the holding/recovery area - an enclosed space - overnight (the ASPCA mobile S/N van was coming the next day.) Nobody seemed to know any reliable vets in the area. Then I remembered Dr Jon Hunziker, whose clinic was several miles away. He's an ophthalomology expert (refered to from all over city) but he also runs a regular vet practice. So we called him, and he agreed to an appointment at such short notice. I took the cat over, and had to wait several hours. Hunziker examined her thoroughly and opined that this was not a URI case as it initially looked. The slimmest of clues - she was dehydrated, the chest seemed clear, stool smear somewhat runny but no sign of coccidia - and he diagnosed probable distemper. The cat would die without fluids and constant monitoring. I have unbounded respect for Dr Hunziker - he is a great vet IMO - so I believed him. Another round of phone calls and the Animal Kind clinic in Park Slope (quite a distance away) was willing to take a look at her, besides having the facilities. They closed for the day at 7 pm, we got there at 6:55. The staff vet thought it was a URI. We insisted that it was probably something more serious, please put her on fluids right now and keep her isolated and under observation overnight. They called back the next day. Yes, the signs were clearer now: it probably was distemper. She pulled through. | It is upsetting to catch a lactating cat. I am still conflicted on | what to do in such a case and would be interested in seeing some | debate It's a tough call. | If we discover a cat is nursing, we go on a treasure hunt for the | kittens, who are bound to be close by. When feasible, this is the best option. But too often (in NYC at least) it isn't. Getting into abandoned buildings - a typical scenario - is a tricky business at best, and could be downright dangerous. Blind alleys behind buildings are another problem case: the only way in may through some building, but what if the super isn't cooperative? | I know of other rescuers who have no compunction about trapping a | lactating momcat, holding her overnight after spay, then releasing | her to tend her kittens. In most cases, the kittens survive. But | then our weather is on the temperate side. Weather aside, this can be a reasonable risk given other conditions. Primarily, the spay needs to have been done by experts - releasing the mother too early could be fatal to her, never mind the litter, so the quality of the surgery could count for a lot. (In this regard, I tend to trust high-volume operations like the Humane Society Of New York or the ASPCA much more than any neighborhood vet.) But there are other problems, mainly logistical. We tend to trap in advance, over at least two days, because the given we have to work with is the pre-arranged S/N appointment. The HS has made exceptions for us on short notice, but we can't bank on it. So what if one catches a lactating cat with the appointment still a couple of days away? For the Rikers Island project in 02, where we were regularly trapping in advance, we went in with the policy that we would take our chances with the litter rather than let the momcat go immediately (hoping to catch her later, that is.) We knew we were getting good surgeons for the mass spay/neuter, so we had a reasonable assurance that letting a cat go 24 hours after the spay - even though we didn't like the idea too much - wouldn't be a poor risk. In our case, we've learned the hard way that letting compassion get the better of us doesn't go well in the aftermath. We had the following experience with another cat, one we call Tortimom (and who happens to be the mother of my cat Marie.) At one point in Winter 01-02, Tortimom was definitely pregnant. We tried for her, with no success. At some point in early February, she showed up for a meal, obviously not pregnant. About a week later, while trying for another cat, my friend Meredith (the same who released Ollie) caught Tortimom. And let her go, knowing how young the litter was. (Well, at least Marie is alive today as a result of that decision.) Tortimom went on to have two more litters over the next year before we caught her again. We didn't get all of the kittens in time either. Tortimom's daughter Little White Running Feet went on to have two litters of her own before we got her. And in that last litter of hers, all five kittens were female! It's debatable, but I'm on the side of spay and release rather than hoping to catch a cat again later. I spoke to the vet last night (went to the office to pick up some antibiotics) and she told me that although they had noticed more blood vessels in her abdomen, they thought that she might have been nursing recently, and not knowing her history, went ahead with the operation. You're all absolutely right. This was the kindest way of dealing with the situation -- and as one who has another cat with a litter of 4 kittens in my dining room awaiting adoption, I should know the reality of over-population. Victoria (the no-longer-pregnant cat) seems quite happy now and not suffering any angst over her lost litter. I was anthropomorphizing quite a bit, I guess. I did appreciate all of your messages and your thoughts; you brought me back to reality. Marion It's hard to know the answer to this one. Perhaps it was a mistake but on the other hand it may not have been. Given there are so many cats that get dumped or simply unwanted in the world, this one got rescued and if the pregnancy was terminated there was probably sufficient reason for it. You also have to remember that there are also plenty of cats and kittens that end up in the shelters because they were simply unwanted or that their human couldn't handle the responsibility (which makes me mad because having a cat is a lifetime commitment not an end it whenever you want). I wouldn't get yourself bent out of shape over this one. It might have been for the best if you think about it. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I'm feeling awful, and I suppose I'm wondering how much I should have > expected myself or the vet to know. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I could cry -- I feel that I've let this pleasant little cat down. > Marion
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