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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / April 2006cat went crazy... can she be trusted?
My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son. She ripped at his legs, he then got away ran to me where she followed and attacked again. I gave her a smack to get off and held her down to the ground (had to use force) while he left the room. He ended up behind a closed door upstairs when I let go of the cat, she then took off immediatly in pursuit... hair fluffed out and growling. My son now has multiple deep claw marks on his legs up to just above the knees and defense marks on his hands & wrists. The cat seems fine now, but she is being kept away from the other family members. Her diet has been the same, the only thing is we parted with a fostered cat (1y/o had him from a kitten) last week. They weren't great 'friends' and did fight regularly (not to the point of injury). Can we trust this cat now? She is normally very affectionate, inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our kids). Any thoughts would be appreciated. We don't want to part with her, but obviously can't keep her if she's going to have 'mental' breakdowns and attack our 5y/o in this manner (let alone the degree of attack and how long it may have continued if I wasn't right there to stop it). Thanks! mrcoyote gmail.com wrote: > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > inquisitive and loves everyone (never had a problem with our > kids). I'm glad the cat didn't claw your son's eyes, it can happen. ... after secluding the cat and treating the wounds, the first thing to do is clip your cat's claws, the best time is upon waking it up from a nap. It's really not too difficult. I put the thing between my legs and sit on it with its head pointing towards my knees and my feet keeping it from scooting away backwards. If sunlight isn't available, a flashlight might help. Also, you might want to put on glasses or goggles before you wake it from a nap to clip its claws. Do it regularly. ... keep in mind that giving your cat away is better than declawing it ... take care of your 12-year-old cat, in case it's stressed out Good luck. > Path: newssvr27.news.prodigy.net!newsdbm04.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm03.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail > From: mrcoyote gmail.com [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Injection-Info: g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com; posting-host=69.156.151.177; posting-account=6XoxOA0AAACeXielqKiCInrOiGN51Wg3 > Xref: prodigy.net rec.pets.cats.health+behav:424619 > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being > serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son. Sounds like misplaced aggression. Perhaps the cat saw another animal outside, and took the aggression out on your other cat, then your son. I would definitely supervise until you're sure the cat won't attack again. I'm sure your son is quite traumatized over the event. You can explain how animals sometimes get too excited but that she didn't mean to take it out on him. Be supervising when they do have contact again. You may also wish to contact an animal behaviorist to find out the best way to deal with this situation. As someone else mentioned, declawing the cat will probably just make her a biter, and cat bites can be much worse than scratches. Also, declawing involves the amputation of the last digit of each toe in order to remove the claw. > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being > serious, but when he got away, she turned on my 5y/o son. It sounds like a possible case of misplaced agression. They see something that they cannot fight, such as an outdoor cat, and then turn on somebody that they can attack in the house. It may also be a leftover issue with the foster cat. I have one cat that likes to attack another cat. After I got Jay Jay, Chase had a new buddy to play with, and his attacks on Kira became very rare. Things were fine. Then, on saturday, I took Jay Jay to a cat show. I came home and discovered tufts of Kira hair near the litter box and a pee spot on the other side of the room. Chase ambushed her in the box. Why? Probably because he was bored. The second day of the show, I left Kira downstairs and Chase upstairs to prevent any problems while Jay Jay was gone. Did you actually witness the start of the event? I know this is hard, but it is possible that your son witnessed the attack, and either stepped into it, attempting to separate them, or he reacted by yelling, screaming, or flailing; and that attracted the cat's anger toward him. It's not something we can prevent since a 5 year old wouldn't know better. But the cat may not have been as agressive had it just been the two cats and nobody else arround. If that is the case, then you can probably just make sure your son isn't alone with the cat until he is a little older or you know your cat is okay. There are also other possibilities. I would take her to the vet and have her checked out. My dog, who is normally a sweet docile dog, will growl and bite if the other dog gets too rough with her. And she doesn't stop with a single bite. She keeps at it, like she is freaked out. I have to bear hug her and settle her down. I've seen her go from play to attack because the other dog jumped and landed on her back. If your cat has any kind of injury or illness, she might be reacting in pain, in a panicky way. Also, there are some brain disorders that can cause problems. It has been seen more in people since we animals don't get examined as much. But certain brain tumors and illnesses will cause violence. These are things that should be ruled out. As for what you can do right now, I would keep her separated and calm. Your vet can give her medication to calm her down. If your vet doesn't think that is neccesary, you can try some herbal supplements like Rescue Remedy. They don't work for everybody, but they won't cause any harm either. If you don't already, trim her nails. Declawing might sound like an option, but don't consider it. Not only is it inhumane (they cut off the last digit of the toe, like cutting off the whole tip of your fingers), but declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting. And bites are worse than scratches. They are deeper, and also more likely to get infected. If you take away her claws, and she has another episode like this, she will feel forced to attack with her teeth. On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote: > My ~2y/o spayed female cat went crazy this a.m.... she apparently > attacked my siamese (male,neutered ~12y/o) - didn't end up being [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Thanks! FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be history. MLB > On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:51:44 -0800, mrcoyote wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > FYI If my 5-year old were attacked by any animal, that animal would be > history. MLB How horrible is that. So, how long has your child been in prison? "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my cats UNTIL I got my last 2. Its been 3 yrs now and they do NOT bite, nor have we have any complains at the veterinary hospital that I work at as a health care assist. of "cat bites" after or because of a declaw I have very mixed feeling about declawing, I never did it before.But my husband put his foot down and told me to get it done or get rid of them after they torn his brand new chair up the same night we got it. I chose to declaw and keep them instead of giving them away and them possibly not have the good life they do now. BTW~~ I have a 6 yr. oh.......... you can use "softpaws" on your cat, they even come in colors. (they are plastic tips that fit over the claw to keep the cat or dog from scratching) <CoastieOhana@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had > cats [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > BTW~~ I have a 6 yr. I'm with you. I think getting rid of a pet you love is the last resort AFTER declawing. I love Kami dearly, but she has had these "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho, but she's my "daughter." There's no one out there who would put up with her, much less spoil her the way I have. It wouldn't be fair, and she has forgiven me.  SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt > I'm with you. I think getting rid of a pet you love is the last > resort AFTER declawing. I love Kami dearly, but she has had these > "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho, > but she's my "daughter." There's no one out there who would put > up with her, much less spoil her the way I have. It wouldn't be > fair, and she has forgiven me. Getting rid of your pet is what you do after you disable it. You can't cope now, and you can't cope with problems arising later. You take away its self-defense, its mode of play and exercise, and then you get rid of it. Wrong, you get rid of it before you disable it. If you can't cope with the claws, don't get the cat. A cats claws are the functional equivalent of our fingers. >> I'm with you. I think getting rid of a pet you love is the last >> resort AFTER declawing. I love Kami dearly, but she has had these [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >A cats claws are the functional equivalent of our fingers. Right. And you are a good example of why some people should be de-fingered... so they don't type a constant stream of negative sh.t, shredding the social upholstery, so to speak. Charlie > Right. And you are a good example of why some people should be > de-fingered... so they don't type a constant stream of negative sh.t, > shredding the social upholstery, so to speak. lol, lets just pay for every other finger to be removed I love Kami dearly, but she has had these > "breakdowns" since the day I brought her home. She's just psycho, That's because you're a psycho crack whore and she never knows what to expect from you-- a pat or a swat or kick- especially when you can't "vent" in newsgroups and you *do* "take it out on Kami". Kami's only problem is *you*. I shudder at the thought of what you've done to that cat. You may fool the naive and gullible with all your bullshit caring cat stories, but anyone whose been in sheltering for awhile can see right through your bullshit stories. All your cat is to you is a means to get attention. > <CoastieOhana@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > her, much less spoil her the way I have. It wouldn't be fair, and she > has forgiven me. Ahh, another a.shole speaks! I'm sure your Kami was a nice cat before you chose to mutilate her. > -- > Margarita Salt > > "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or > entirely good... motives are often more important than > actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt PawsForThought <mickey4paws@gmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Ahh, another a.shole speaks! I'm sure your Kami was a nice cat > before you chose to mutilate her. Before and after, in spite of being psycho. Her mother's owners regularly got her high and I don't doubt there's a wee bit of damage there. But what's your point? She now graces my Visa card (my bank allows you to have a card produced with any photo). SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt I have been forgiven too,take awhile :( I have been forgiven too,take awhile :( I have been forgiven too,take awhile :( > "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats > my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > BTW~~ I have a 6 yr. I had the same problem and bought my cats something they like to scratch more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have not been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you. >> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats >> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >more than the chair. They don't scratch the chair anymore and they have not >been mutilated, neat, eh? Your husband is an idiot and so are you. Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I probably should get him declawed, but funds are tight at the moment. My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd rather spend on weed. Charlie > >> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats > >> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > My vet charges $5 per claw, $7 with anesthesia. That's 50 bucks I'd > rather spend on weed. <G> Well, Charlie, seeing as how getting him declawed will instantly restore your chairs, I think you should reconsider. Seriously, try this: http://www.petdiscounters.com/product.php?productid=1157457&cat=299&page=1 It is what made my babies stop scratching the furniture. >> >> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats >> >> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >It is what made my babies stop scratching the furniture. He only scratched the chair once, several weeks ago. I didn't see him do it. The damage was not significant. I may be imagining things, but Tweaker seems to be more socially aware than most cats. He may have corrected his own behavior as soon as he saw what he was doing. Or maybe not, but he only did it once and he has had lots of opportunities. His favorite scratch these days is the edge of the cushion I sit on in front of the computer, made out of canvas. It's a good thing for him to ruin because it's cheap. He knows it's ok, because he does it right in front of me, and I don't object. All in all, I can't really justify the expense of declawing him at this point in time. Charlie >>> "declawed cats have a higher incidence of biting"~~~~ I have had cats >>> my whole life (I will be 37 in April) I have never declawed any of my [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Charlie Yep, and after smoking a joint or two, the state of your barca lounger really doesn't seem all that important does it? ;> SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ > Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the > only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Charlie Thank God you didn't end up with Conan. Do Tweaker a favor - rehome him before you declaw him. -L. >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >him before you declaw him. >-L. Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a home-declawing party. You'll just have to suck it up. Charlie > Nah. I'm gonna get some PCP for the both of us and have a > home-declawing party. > > You'll just have to suck it up. > > Charlie Be sure and take an over-dose. -L. >> >Charlie Wilkes wrote: > >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> > >> Charlie Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker! Alison >>> >Charlie Wilkes wrote: >> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker! > Alison I'm not really trolling. I'm reacting to all the huffing and puffing about declawing. It's legal, right? If it is such a terrible practice, someone ought to make the case to lawmakers and get it banned. And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger. So what. Charlie > And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for > me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger. > So what. don't worry, you still got your pussy >> And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need for >> me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca lounger. >> So what. > >don't worry, you still got your pussy I slept all day today and just before I got up, I put my hand out over the covers, and Tweaker grabbed it with his paws and pulled it toward his mouth and bit it. It felt wonderful. He has the perfect, gentle touch. But, not all cats do. Charlie > > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker! > > Alison [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Charlie>> I guess people make a fuss because they care and feel strongly about it . You know what , they don't have to actually ban it by law. The American vet association could just ban vets from doing it , maybe that will happen one day. Alison:) >> > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker! >> > Alison [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I guess people make a fuss because they care and feel strongly about it . Yes, they do care, and I have read some good, rational arguments in this thread. BUT, there is also an element of nastiness... using it as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo it if they wanted to. >You know what , they don't have to actually ban it by law. The American vet >association could just ban vets from doing it , maybe that will happen one >day. > Alison:) If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of action? It's a world of untidy tradeoffs. Charlie > >> > Charlie, stop trolling, you know damn well you wouldn't declaw Tweaker! > >> > Alison [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo > it if they wanted to. Not the point with regard to Brandy or the idiot Sherry-with-an-i, Charlie. I declawed my first cat and there is nothing I can do about it now. The difference between me and these two is that I recognize that it was a heinous thing to do and have admitted it. They have not. But I applaud your newfound Tenderhearted Concerned for the Downtrodden Unrepentant Declawers. You've been saved! > If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or > I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of > action? Its actually ethically inappropriate for vets to submit to this form of moral blackmail and emotional terrorism from their clients. There's a very simple solution: I'd ask the owners to sign a surrender form and I'd rehome the cat. We do it all the time. Most of the cats don't actually have a scratching or behavioral problem- their behavior problems are almost always caused by a stressful environment or psychotic owners. Most of the cats return to normal behavior once they're in a normal environment. >> If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or >> I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of >> action? > >Its actually ethically inappropriate for vets to submit to this form of >moral blackmail and emotional terrorism from their clients. Emotional terrorism, eh? Better call Homeland Security. >There's a very simple solution: I'd ask the owners to sign a surrender form >and I'd rehome the cat. We do it all the time. Most of the cats don't No, Phil. A glib comeback is not a simple solution, so you'll have to spend that rubber nickel somewhere else. If a simple solution existed, shelters wouldn't be overloaded with cats. Charlie > On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:13:15 GMT, "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> > >There's a very simple solution: I'd ask the owners to sign a surrender form > >and I'd rehome the cat. We do it all the time. Most of the cats don't > > No, Phil. A glib comeback is not a simple solution, Sorry Charlie, its not a glib comeback; its a well proven fact. If an owner threatens to relinquish the cat to a shelter and probable death, they really shouldn't have any problem signing the cat over to the vet. A lot of our cats come from vets whose clients are unable or unwilling to treat their cats' medical or behaviorial problems. so you'll have to > spend that rubber nickel somewhere else. If a simple solution > existed, shelters wouldn't be overloaded with cats. Sorry Charlie, you're wrong again. Shelters aren't overloaded with cats due to scratching problems. In fact inappropriate scratching isn't even on the NCPPSP list of the top 10 reasons for pet relinquishment to shelters in the United States. That's one of the reasons why the "death or declaw" philosophy is bogus. Charlie wrote~~~ "BUT, there is also an element of nastiness... using it as a club to beat up people who have already done it and couldn't undo it if they wanted to. " Your right, I cant undo it and they are using it a club to beat me up Charlie wrote~~~"If you were a vet, and a customer said, "either declaw this cat, or I'm going to take it to a shelter," what would be your course of action? It's a world of untidy tradeoffs." I got my 2 cats as kittens from the ASCPA, and there was no way I was going to send them back. I chose to declaw. 3 yrs ago our local ASCPA was run by a bad person.he would have KILLED my cats .I know their brothers ,sisters and mother was killed there. My cats are lucky I came along........declawed or not! Like I have already said,I didnt know about softpaws then Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > And you are right... I would not declaw Tweaker. There is no need > for me even to consider it. He put a few scuff marks in my barca > lounger. So what. > > Charlie If only. Kami did a number on the carpet in one of my old apartments. She found a little string sticky up, and every time I turned around she was working that corner of the carpet trying to pull it up and get a better handle on that string. I snipped it, but she could get it going again. She managed to unravel a square foot area down to the backing. I told the landlord I did it. :) It was loose... all that vacuuming... Oh, and I was the one who ripped the drapes, too. ;) She never went after the furniture except one time on the couch. I started her so bad with a big, loud KAMI, NO! she never did it again. SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt > >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the > >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You'll just have to suck it up. :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. >> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the >> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. Yes it is :-) > >> >> Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the > >> >> only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Yes it is :-) lol > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone in in his trailer is a pretty funny one. -L. > > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. > > I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone > in in his trailer is a pretty funny one. > > -L. This is a perfect example of your making any attempt to make you look bad totally superfluous. I could not begin to dream up anything uglier than the real thing. > > > :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > totally superfluous. I could not begin to dream up anything uglier than the > real thing. Despite the first sentence you wrote not making any sense, the visual of you laying dead in a gutter somewhere is pretty satisfying, too. :) HAND! -L. >> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. > >I dunno - the image of Charlie ODing on elephant tranqulizer all alone >in in his trailer is a pretty funny one. > >-L. Years ago, Dan's Gallery of the Grotesque had medical photos of a guy who cut strips of flesh off of his face and fed them to his dog whilst enjoying the intoxicating effects of PCP. The text described how the MDs cut open the dog's stomach to retrieve these morsels so they could do some reconstructive surgery, and I believe there was a second photo of the post-op result. The guy didn't look too good. I got a chuckle out of those pix, and if you can find them, you would too. They're still out there somewhere, I'll bet... Charlie >>> :) It's not nice to mess with the humor impaired, Charlie. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Charlie Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes along with it: "While under the influence of Angel Dust this man decided to peel off his own face using pieces of a broken mirror and feed the strips of flesh to his pet dogs. He survived due to the large abounts of drugs anesthetizing his system. The dogs were removed by police to the animal shelter, where their stomachs were pumped, resulting in the recovery of pieces of the man´s face, lips, and nose." Nice to know that picture is still out there to educate the public about the dangers of drug abuse. Charlie > Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes > along with it: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Charlie LOL...I guess that's where Thomas Harris got the idea then. This reminds me of "Reefer Madness" from the 50's. I did some massive quantities of Dust in the 70's and never once cut of my face. In fact, I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;) -L. >> Hey, I found one of the pix, at least. Here is the caption that goes >> along with it: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;) >-L. It scared the sh.t out of me. One time I thought I was going to die for sure. I only did it a couple of times. I grew up in a cold part of the country, and I knew a girl who was tripping on PCP and went outside in her shirtsleeves and froze to death when it was -20 F. I also knew someone who burned his stomach pretty severely by dropping a cigarette and not realizing it. But I also know people who did a lot of dust and got away with it. I think it was the novice users who were at the most risk of doing something really crazy. Charlie > It scared the sh.t out of me. One time I thought I was going to die > for sure. I only did it a couple of times. All I had to do was see other people get violent on it. I never touched it. One of the best early educations for some kinds of people is to be exposed to the negative effects of something on others. I saw people tripping (not so bad unless you really want to communicate with them and you're not!) and slobbering on themselves from Methaqualone, babbling under a cocaine load, etc. Later, working sober around drunks (it's called bartending, hee!) did wonders for any urges I may have had to drown my sorrows. But I am not anti-drug. I believe there is a basic urge to change one's state of consciousness. I actually tried weed and hash, but got paranoid. :) I did, as I have said before, really like peyote done in small bits. (Not enough to make me "throw up and see God." Just enough to make colors more interesting and unexplained joy bubble up in the breast. A great book from the 1990s, I think: "Drug Control in a Free Society." I forget the author. Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > It scared the sh.t out of me. One time I thought I was going to die > for sure. I only did it a couple of times. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Charlie Yikes, I never would have done dust even in my most experimental days. I did some coke in the early 80s, but just because my boyfriend did. It meant nothing to me, unlike him and the vast lots of his acquaintances. I saw well-established people lose everything for that crap. I don't understand drug addiction. SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt > It scared the sh.t out of me. One time I thought I was going to die > for sure. I only did it a couple of times. Scared the sh.t out of me too, and that's why I quit doing it. It was the only time I had real out of body experiences - and that was enough to make me quit. > I grew up in a cold part of the country, and I knew a girl who was > tripping on PCP and went outside in her shirtsleeves and froze to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > think it was the novice users who were at the most risk of doing > something really crazy. I never understood people who smoked it - when I smoked it it just made me puke. When I snorted it, it was a crazy happy high with some of the most incredible physical hallucinations I've ever experienced. Didn't like it that much - but it was cheap and available, and well, back then, that's what we did for fun. My hallucinogenic of choice was blotter acid, or microdots (when we could get them). I'm sure you encountered a pane or two in your day...but that was also a drug that scared me into stopping - because I liked it far too much. I started to understand why people dropped out of society and dropped acid for a living. That scared me. -L. >> It scared the sh.t out of me. One time I thought I was going to die >> for sure. I only did it a couple of times. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >liked it far too much. I started to understand why people dropped out >of society and dropped acid for a living. That scared me. Yeah, I did a lot of acid and speed. I ended up in a mental ward, having electroshock treatments because I was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. I've had quite a life, actually. Charlie I did some massive > quantities of Dust in the 70's and never once cut of my face. In fact, > I wasn't sure which face was mine. ;) LMAO! > Tweaker has done some damage to my green leather barca loungers, the > only furniture I own that is really expensive. I'm thinking I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Charlie Charlie's just playing he wouldn't dare cut his cats claws off FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say about opinions.......... > FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont > call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I > have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say > about opinions.......... Unfortunately, a lot of scratching posts are poorly designed and not too interesting to cats. A lot of them do not have a tall enough vertical post for cats to really stretch out on. Some are very shaky, and the cats don't trust them. Many have shelves that are too small, or aligned in such a way that they aren't useful. The tubes and hammocks aren't enjoyed by some cats. I see a lot of cat trees in the stores that look nice, and they're expensive, but I wouldn't take them free, because they would be a waste of space. Cats want something tall with shelves up high. They want something they can really stretch and scratch on. Posts with multiple surfaces are the best since some cats prefer rug, sisal, plain wood, etc. So, a post that is great for one, may not be good at all for another. We have 5 posts in our house. One is a plain old boring post, but still popular with the cats after 30 years. It has a 3 1/2 foot post before the first shelf, so they can really scratch at the bottom. It used to have rug, but the bottom section has been plain wood for about 20 years now. And we had to replace a section about 15 years ago since Maynard prefered wood, and scratched out enough that we were worried it might fall over. It has 3 shelves on alternate sides, so the cats can easily get from one shelf to another, and the tallest shelf is only about a foot below the ceiling. They love to sit on that one. I have a short post that sits on my work table in my bedroom so that it has the apparence of a 5 foot post. The top shelf is Kira's. She's the only one small enough to be comfortable on it. I keep her food bowl on the second shelf. It's too small to lay down on, only sit. This is not a post suitable for scratching, but a lot of people buy it because it is cheap. I intended it to be a posing post for photos, so I never expected the cats to hang out on it much. We have two posts that are are in the 4-5 foot range. One is the 3 level one that I won last year in a raffle. It has really large circular levels, so it is perfect for Jay Jay, the jumbo boy. And the shelves are are more of a sideways jump than straight up, so it was perfect for Maynard, my elderly boy. It has the underside of run available for scratching and some sisal. My nephew's cat post has two levels with nice size platforms with short walls. The cats really like those kind of platforms. All 4 of our cats frequent that cat tree a lot. My nephew has blankets hanging off the top shelf to make the lower shelf into an "apartment" and the two boys really like that. They totall ignore the cylinder at the bottom and the toy hanging on it. They do like the sisal scratching section as well as the rug. There are some noticeable wear spots showing the usage. And the final cat tree is the newest addition. It is almost to the ceiling, and multiple levels. The bottom level is ignored. Then there is a large level with part of it covered and a good scratching post with sisal starting from there (both are very popular). Then it has two good shelves with the short walls that they can snuggle into. It is the most popular cat tree in the house, and can easily accomodate all 4 at one time. The main thing in choosing a cat tree is know what cats in general like, and what yours specifically prefer. Don't pick anything short or wobbly. Pick big enough shelves. Get the surface they prefer to scratch. It might be wood, cardboard, sisal, rug, etc. It is well worth the effort to find the right cat tree. And if all else fails, buy a new chair or couch and have the old scratched one made into a tree. They get to keep their favorite surface, and you get your new one. We've lived in our current house for 18 years. During that time, we have had 12 cats (not all at the same time), and we only had one cat that scratched the furniture. She took out one side of the couch. We got a cover for it. No big deal. And she did stop after the first year. Declawing was never an option. > > FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. > So you declawed a cat rather than keep trying?!!! It took me about 2 years to find the Furballs ideal scratching posts (Cosmic Catnip cardboard flat one's they didn't need any training at all- opened the box and they were both straight on it and stropping for all they were worth!) but while I was looking we tolerated occasional attacks on furniture (I should have realised the clue long before I did, like our other 2 cats both of them loved ripping cardboard boxes to bits) etc etc. But I would have sooner had my own fingernails removed than declaw them for doing what comes naturally to cats! If you want an animal that doesn't behave like a cat then get something else, don't mutilate the poor cat for being a cat! Ages ago someone here had a saying the summed up the declaw/claw debate perfectly and I'll try to remember it. It went something like: White leather sofa.... £3,000 Armchairs.... £500 Knowledge that my cats are entire and happy and behaving like cats...priceless Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs > > > FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > did, like our other 2 cats both of them loved ripping cardboard boxes > to bits) etc etc. That's the thing about cats. They like different scratching surfaces. Some like a horizontal post while others like vertical. Some like scratching cardboard, while others like scratching carpet or sisal posts. It's good to try a few different ones like you did until you find the one the cat will use. Also, sometimes a post is not high enough, or it's wobbly so if the cat scratches and it's not sturdy, the cat won't like using it at all. So sad that this Sherri person didn't do her research before she had her cats mutilated :( > Ages ago someone here had a saying the summed up the declaw/claw debate > perfectly and I'll try to remember it. It went something like: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Knowledge that my cats are entire and happy and behaving like > cats...priceless Furniture... who cares Climbing drapes... who cares Being able to play with every cat dozens of times per day and still have skin on my hands and arms... priceless Not having to deal with the occasional scratched cat eye from play... priceless SignatureAll relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say about opinions.......... > FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont > call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I > have mine.Last I checked I lived in the USA. You know what they say > about opinions.......... I'm not calling you and your husband idiots because I have my opinion. I am calling you and your husband idiots because you are idiots. Obviously you didn't try a proper scratching post, or proper training techniques. It's not rocket science. You could have even gone to your local library and gotten a book on how to train your cat. Instead, you decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your precious a.shole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot a.sholes!!! >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >decided to have the ends of the cat's toes amputated to save your >precious a.shole husband's chair. Idiots!!!! Idiot a.sholes!!! Hysteria is not persuasive, doll. Charlie > >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont > >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Charlie No, but she's right. And it's a bit too late for persuasion, in this case, isn't it Charlie? And, hmmm, now that I take a closer look, just one blinking minute here ... "hysteria?" Or just passion, genuine feeling that when there is a choice other than surgical excision of the last joint of the toes, one should make that choice? Freud f.cked up with the whole "hysteria" deal, after all. Most times I find this word being tossed about it is by bloodless freaks who are trying to deny that we have any duty to actually exercise our humanity. :) The higher parts, if you will. But I am still calm. We can discuss it. Clearly, "Sherry with an I" chose to mutilate her cats and is not sorry about it. Not one bit. After all, hubby "put his foot down." Ooo, that is just soooo attractive, you know? Like, come on, big fella, make me authorize the butchering of my cat's pretty little feet, oo, yeah, that's what get's mama hot!" Now Charlie comes in and portrays Lauren as "hysterial" because this bothers her? Perhaps. But I think her reaction is not limited to those who have uteri. Us. You know what I mean. Love, CC >> >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont >> >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Now Charlie comes in and portrays Lauren as "hysterial" because this bothers >her? No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points followed by 3 more on the same line. >Perhaps. But I think her reaction is not limited to those who have uteri. >Us. You know what I mean. OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word. But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact, it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to. That is really my only point. I'm not an advocate of de-clawing. I might say that people who care so deeply about the furniture ought not to have pets at all... but one could also say that people who don't bother to fence their yards ought not to have a dog. I'm just not morally secure enough, or blameless enough, to pronounce such a harsh judgement. Charlie No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points > followed by 3 more on the same line. Oh dear, the exclamation police! Oops, that should have read "oh dear, the exclamation police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Perhaps I'm not quite as mellow as you. Do you think I need some weed maybe? > OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word. > But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it > doesn't add any force to the arguments against de-clawing. In fact, > it makes it that much easier for Sherri to write her critics off as > people who are intrinsically hostile and not worth listening to. I have been in the declaw "debate" for many years. I have found that sometimes being all nicey to pro-declawers just doesn't work. Sometimes they need to be shook up, to really look deep within themselves, to acknowledge what was done to their cat. They need to question why someone like me would be so upset. They might start to think, hey maybe the vet was wrong, and declawing is not just like a simple manicure. I don't know. I've tried it both ways. Sometimes a laid back approach can work, but unfortunately oftentimes it doesn't. You may think I'm ineffective, Charlie, but I've had lots of emails over the years from people thanking me for educating them about what declawing really is. Even people I was "hysterical" with. They told me it was my passion that really got them thinking. If it saves even one cat from this atrocity, then it's well worth it, don't you think? Lauren >No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points >> followed by 3 more on the same line. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >me it was my passion that really got them thinking. If it saves even >one cat from this atrocity, then it's well worth it, don't you think? I think you need a better cause to rant about. Abortion is always a good one. Whichever side you choose, you'll have lots of other nutballs to help you educate the public. Charlie I think you need a better cause to rant about. Abortion is always a > good one. Whichever side you choose, you'll have lots of other > nutballs to help you educate the public. True, but I think I'll pass :) Lauren~~ You are not being hysterical,you are being a a.s :) > No, she portrayed herself as hysterical, with 4 exclamation points > > followed by 3 more on the same line. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Lauren > >> >> FYI~~~~ We tried many scratching post and they didnt work. and dont > >> >> call me nor my husband a idiot just because you have your opinion and I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >> > >> Hysteria is not persuasive, doll. > OK, I wasn't thinking in terms of etymology when I chose that word. > But, whether you call it passion or hysteria or something else, it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That is really my only point. It's a sound point, as you know. But there's also value (for me, at least) in acknowledging the brutality of the practice of declawing in simple terms. There are certainly times when I am not interested in persuading. (Getting tricky with a moron in order to convince her that the sky is, indeed, blue holds little appeal most days.) At those times, a simple "Idiot," or even an "Idiot!!!!! a.shole!!!!! IDIOT a.shole!" will do quite nicely. > I'm not an advocate of de-clawing. I know. >I might say that people who care so deeply about the furniture ought not > to have pets at all... but one could also say that people who don't > bother to fence their yards ought not to have a dog. Paying to have this cruel surgical procedure done needlessly is not the same thing as letting your dog run in a place that is usually safe and having a tragic accident happen, Charlie. Not at all, you have to know this. >I'm just not > morally secure enough, or blameless enough, to pronounce such a harsh > judgement. I understand, but don't you think you were really editorializing on Lauren's "form?" You, a controlled and rational man (usually) just hate all that hooha--passionate and righteous indignation, exclamation points, and "idiot a.shole" flinging. Perhaps like Tom Robbins you feel that style is 90% of life. :) Well, I would not wholly disagree--but I still think there's a place for epithet flinging and exclamation points. Such expression, after all, may keep people like Brandy from abusing her cat and me from acidizing the wrong person. I say, as long as you have a deserving target, wale away. :) Subtle persuasion be damned--or left to others. >I understand, but don't you think you were really editorializing on >Lauren's "form?" You, a controlled and rational man (usually) just hate all [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >person. I say, as long as you have a deserving target, wale away. :) Subtle >persuasion be damned--or left to others. People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed cats who seem normal and content, with owners who dote on them. Therefore I do not automatically embrace the view that is prevalent in this group -- i.e., that declawing is a manifest cruelty perpetrated only by selfish jerks. Most veterinarians presumably choose their profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to declaw cats? I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud the virtue of shrill invective on the subject. Charlie > People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely > stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > profession because they care about animals. Why are they willing to > declaw cats? Money. I once estimated that the vet I worked for brought in around 100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or euthanize" rationale. > I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes > in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this > neighborhood who fend for themselves and usually suffer alone when > they become ill or injured. Until that changes, I won't get too > terribly upset about declawing an otherwise pampered pet, or applaud > the virtue of shrill invective on the subject. I thought declawing was pretty benign as well (had friends who did it, thought it was no big deal), until I worked for the vet and saw the post-op aftermath. The pain from it has to be tremendous. And then there were the "problem declaw" cases that were referred to us from all over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd ever condone the practice. -L. Don't forget L about when they cry out under sedation while the procedure happens >> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely >> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -L. The post-op aftermath of declawing? Excuse me, but what about spay and neutering? Disagree with that too? At least with a declaw they get sent home with pain meds,nothing gets sent home with a spay or neuter.And the vet you worked for who only did it for the money shouldnt be a vet at all! > > People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely > > stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -L. >The post-op aftermath of declawing? Excuse me, but what about spay and >neutering? Disagree with that too? At least with a declaw they get sent >home with pain meds,nothing gets sent home with a spay or neuter.And >the vet you worked for who only did it for the money shouldnt be a vet >at all! But spaying and neutering is to prevent kittens from being born into a world that has too many; it's a necessary procedure. Declawing is just to save your chair. You can't even compare the two. You still haven't advised why you didn't use Soft Paws instead of declawing. Care to answer that? NanCe > But spaying and neutering is to prevent kittens from being born into a world > that has too many; it's a necessary procedure. Declawing is just to save > your chair. Let me tell you from long, personal experience, front declawing doesn't do a flopping thing to save your furniture. SignatureAll relevant people are pertinent. All rude people are impertinent. Therefore, no rude people are relevant. -- Solomon W. Golomb I did answer the declaw/softpaws question already.................. I didnt know about them and the vet I went to back then didnt tell me abut them. I NEVER EVER said I would do it again! And like I said of all the cats I have had, I did it with my last 2. Today feb 23 is the last time I'm posting or trying to defend this topic that I chose to do.So you'll have to find some other poor soul to sh.t on. >> People are entitled to say whatever is on their minds. I'm merely >> stepping in as a skeptic on this issue. I have been around declawed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >100K/year from declaws. He justified it using the "declaw or >euthanize" rationale. That's a lot of money for one procedure. Was declawing the mainstay of this guy's practice? How many cats would he have to declaw in a year to pull in 100k of revenue? >> I'm also aware, as everyone must be, that much greater suffering goes >> in the world of cats. There are hundreds of barn cats in this [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >over the state. After seeing all that, there was no way in hell I'd >ever condone the practice. I can't dispute this. But, I recognize that many people are unaware, or don't believe, it is cruel. They think it is ok as long as the cat is kept indoors. If they show up as newbies in this group, having already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making them feel like pariahs? If declawing is a social evil, it is one that should be addressed by law, I think. As long as it is legal and provided as a service by many, if not most, vets, then I think quite a few people will assume it is a viable option, and lambasting them after the fact is pissing in the wind. After all, we live in a society where warning labels are printed on 5 gallon buckets... "Don't fill with water and submerge your toddler." With that level of legal boilerplate permeating the culture, people tend to assume that all bad things have been outlawed, and conversely, that all lawful options are sound and reasonable. Charlie Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making them feel like pariahs?" I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a a.shole,etc,doesnt accomplish anything at all about declawing.What it did accomplish was finding out that this message board has a lot of selfish, mean people. Thank God I am not a thin skinned person and layed awake at night thinking about what hurtful things people have called me or say to me here, or stop coming here. I'm still here and sleep pretty good at night :)) > Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having > already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making > them feel like pariahs?" > > I'll tell you since I'm a newbie,getting called a a.shole You'll be an a.shole as long as you don't regret having it done. Period. You causing trouble again Cyber :-) >> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having >> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You'll be an a.shole as long as you don't regret having it done. > Period. > You causing trouble again Cyber :-) Jes' tellin' de troof, NMR. I think little cat feet are among the most beautiful structures in the world. Declawing my first cat was absolutely the worst thing I have ever done in my life. (I thought it meant just taking out the claws permanently, I had no idea what it was until I saw what they had done. I was a teenager, but that is no excuse--I should have asked more questions, for sure.) I kept that kitty safe indoors and loved her for 20 years, every day knowing what I had let them do to her little feet. And she used to bite the living hell out of me, too. Just a bit of payback. Not nearly enough. > >> Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having > >> already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You'll be an a.shole as long as you don't regret having it done. > > Period. > > Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having > > already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by making [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You'll be an a.shole as long as you don't regret having it done. > Period. Amen. Sherri <CoastieOhana@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Charlie wrote "If they show up as newbies in this group, having > already declawed their cat(s), how much can be accomplished by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I'm still here and sleep pretty good at night :)) Yes, they are quit nasty and mean-spirited, and will twist the tiniest bit of information they get from you into what they think is a weapon they can hurt you with. Not only does it do nothing about a cat that is already declawed--including mine where it has been 15 years--the venom and vitriol does nothing to get you on their side that you might spread the word. They do more harm to cats in general than we may have innocently done to one. SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt Margarita Salt wrote"Yes, they are quit nasty and mean-spirited, and will twist the tiniest bit of information they get from you into what they think is a weapon they can hurt you with. Not only does it do nothing about a cat that is already declawed--including mine where it has been 15 years--the venom and vitriol does nothing to get you on their side that you might spread the word. They do more harm to cats in general than we may have innocently done to one. " I say AMEN to that ! > Margarita Salt wrote"Yes, they are quit nasty and mean-spirited, and > will twist the tiniest [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I say AMEN to that ! Nobody cares, dimwit. f.ck off bitch! > f.ck off bitch! Ouch Language my poor ears NMR <haveyouplonkedatrolltoday@anti-troll.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> f.ck off bitch! > > Ouch Language my poor ears And you don't think you're saying the exact same thing with your little STFUs? SignatureMargarita Salt "...practically no one in the world is entirely bad or entirely good... motives are often more important than actions." -- Eleanore Roosevelt "Margarita Salt" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> Oh god the junkie came back hide the cat > f.ck off bitch! Sherri, Hon, if you are going to tell someone to f.ck off, it's generally a good idea to quote the material to which you are resonding. Otherwise you are simply shouting epithets into thin air. HTH and HAND, -L. > f.ck off bitch! If you include a snippet of the post to which you are replying, we will know which bitch you are replying too. a.shole. :) I wrote~~"> f.ck off bitch! cybercat wrote~~~~If you include a snippet of the post to which you are replying, we will know which bitch you are replying too. a.shole. :) I was talking to you cybercat :) > I wrote~~"> f.ck off bitch! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I was talking to you cybercat :) Well I am really glad we cleared that up. a.shole. :) Not a problem bitch :)) > > I wrote~~"> f.ck off bitch! > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well I am really glad we cleared that up. a.shole. :) >Sherri <CoastieOhana@yahoo.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >They do more harm to cats in general than we may have innocently done >to one. Well, no. This is a group largely composed of intelligent females. I see lots of useful knowledge, and also a lack of perspective and emotional stability. How did your complaint to the veterinary board work out? Charlie Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Well, no. This is a group largely composed of intelligent > females. I see lots of useful knowledge, and also a lack of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Charlie Haven't heard anything. I'm sure they have more pressing matters and will get to it when they can. They said |
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