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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2006I just toilet trained my new kitten
I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four months ago. Believing that litter boxes are unhealthy for cats (imagine having to walk around on litter contaminated with urine and feces) not to mention tracking all that waste material around the house, I decided to toilet train her. I began by putting the litter box on the floor near the bathroom. Every day I would raise the litter box another inch or two until it was at the level of the toilet. Precious had no problem with this at all. After a couple weeks I purchased a Sitz Bath at a local drug store for about ten dollars. I put it in the toilet and filled it with litter. Precious had no problems with this either. After about another week I made a hole in the Sitz Bath about the diameter of a toilet roll tube and pushed an empty toilet roll holder through the hole so that it extended a couple inches. I put litter in the Sitz Bath as before. When Precious first got up she was very curious about the hole and put her paw inside only to find it was wet. This did not deter her from using the new litter box for her toilet needs. I would give her a special treat whenever she used the toilet. At night I would put her in a luxurious crate next to my bed and first thing in the morning take her down to do her business. I did not want to have any accidents at night. Every week or so I would gradually enlarge the opening in the Sitz Bath. When the opening got about six inches in diameter Precious was unable to put her all her paws in the litter so she began to put her from paws on the toilet seat to do her business. I would flush the solid wastes down the toilet after Precious went #2. She was fascinated by the water going down the toilet and would watch as her feces disappeared. When the opening got to the point where there was only a small rim of litter Precious had to have all four paws on the toilet seat. I got some of those no stick shower strips to prevent any slippage. She did it like a champ. Well she is now five months old. I removed the Sitz Bath completely a couple weeks ago. She jumped on the toilet, looked inside and proceed to relieve herself directly into the water. She jumped off to get her treat. Now all I have to do is teach her to flush the toilet:-) This should not be a problem since she has occasionally done it for me when I am on the toilet. I encourage anyone with a new kitten to consider toilet training. It is much easier to train a kitten and I believe it is much healthier for the cat especially for those who used silica based litter which are harmful when inhaled or eaten. I used Feline Pine for the toilet training as it is flushable and totally natural. It also has a wonderful woodsy odor. I still have two bags of it left. I am very happy with the fact that my Precious no longer has to put her feet into disgusting feces and urine soaked litter and track it all over the house not to mention ingest it when cleaning her paws. She also does not have to inhale the dust from the litter. When she gets too old to jump up on the toilet seat I will set up a stool or some other system to help her do this. For those who are interested in toilet training I would be happy to answer any questions you might have. RC > I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four > months ago. cool beans, im too lazy to do this, but I want to how did you keep the litter out of the toilet after the hole was bigger than the temp tube plug i have heard that newspaper stips are helpful for toilet training. it's ok if some of them go in, while the hole is getting larger. WTG! >> I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four >> months ago. > >cool beans, im too lazy to do this, but I want to I have a few friends who are in the process of toilet training their kittens too. It helps to have a spare bathroom to do the training. >how did you keep the litter out of the toilet after the hole was bigger >than the temp tube plug I used an empty large round plastic container that I cut and rolled up to fit the opening. Litter still ends up going in the toilet when the cat scratches at it especially when the hole is a novelty. That is why you need to use flushable litter. >WTG! Thanx. Both Precious and I are very happy. No more litter!!!! RC > I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four > months ago. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > RC I find this somewhat problematic. What happens when the cat becomes a senior citizen and is perhaps unable to make the leap to reach the toilet? The stool may not cut it. What happens if you, for some unforeseen reason, need to give this cat up? It may become a difficult adoption case. What happens if you live somewhere with only one washroom? Kitty may not like waiting while you enjoy a long relaxing soak in the tub. What happens if the cat needs to spend extended time at the vet? Will they provide a toilet or litter box? Will your training be undone by this? What happens if the cat starts to go other places besides the toilet? You either have a medical or behavior issue. If it is behavior issue you may need to go back to basics to get it straightened out... meaning back to the litter box. I'd encourage anyone to think twice about this. Domestic cats have been using the litter box for a very long time, why mess with something that is a well established behavior? Cats dig in the dirt and bury their waste... this is instinctive behavior. >> I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four >> months ago. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >What happens when the cat becomes a senior citizen and is perhaps unable >to make the leap to reach the toilet? The stool may not cut it. If the stool does not cut it then I will try my best to find a good way to get around it. I have carpentry skills and can build steps for her to climb. And if I cannot do any of this then I will use a litter basket. I suspect this will not happen for many happy years for both of us if it happens at all. >What happens if you, for some unforeseen reason, need to give this cat >up? It may become a difficult adoption case. Why? I have friends who have toilet trained their cats who would be happy to adopt her. And if worse comes to worse she can always go back to litter. The transition would not be that difficult. >What happens if you live somewhere with only one washroom? I live in a house with four bathrooms. I don't plan to move as the house it paid for and I am very happy with it. Precious has her own bathroom. She is quite happy. >Kitty may not >like waiting while you enjoy a long relaxing soak in the tub. She does not have to wait. She can go to the toilet while someone is in the bath. Precious does not mind other's watching her go pee. She is an exhibitionist. >What happens if the cat needs to spend extended time at the vet? Will >they provide a toilet or litter box? Will your training be undone by this? No, my training will not be undone by this. When Precious returns she will likely go right back to the toilet. If not, I will deal with that when it comes up. >What happens if the cat starts to go other places besides the toilet? I will deal with that when it happens. I will try to figure out why and take steps to remedy it. >You either have a medical or behavior issue. If it is behavior issue you >may need to go back to basics to get it straightened out... meaning back >to the litter box. I will deal with that if and when it comes up. Precious and I have a very good relationship. I have been very good about giving her much praise and rewards for certain behaviors and she responds positively to it. >I'd encourage anyone to think twice about this. Domestic cats have been >using the litter box for a very long time, why mess with something that >is a well established behavior? My kitten only used a litter box for a few months til I weaned her off of it to something that is much healthier. As I said she no longer has to put her feet in a place with feces and urine. She no longer has to clean her paws and ingest lord knows what. She no longer has to inhale the litter dust which can be very toxic depending on the litter. I believe that Precious will live a much longer and healthier life than cats who are forced to regularly walk in their excrement and inhale dust from litter. >Cats dig in the dirt and bury their >waste... this is instinctive behavior. If it is so instinctual then how do you explain how easily I trained her to engage in a behavior that is much healthier for her IMO. YMMV. RC >>>I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four >>>months ago. [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > cats who are forced to regularly walk in their excrement and inhale > dust from litter. The only reason cats that use litter boxes regularly walk in their excrement is because of lazy owners who don't scoop out the litter box regularly... i.e. daily. In any case, if the cat buries their excrement in the litter they won't be walking on it directly. >>Cats dig in the dirt and bury their >>waste... this is instinctive behavior. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > RC It isn't an easy process. >The only reason cats that use litter boxes regularly walk in their >excrement is because of lazy owners who don't scoop out the litter box >regularly... i.e. daily. Daily does not cut it. Scooping out the litter box does not get rid of every bit of feces or urine. Even when it looks clean it is filled with disgusting feces and urine. The only time it is truly clean is when you change the litter completely. And then as soon as the cat uses it, it will be contaminated to some degree or another. >In any case, if the cat buries their excrement in the litter they won't >be walking on it directly. Even if they bury it there will be reside of fecal material on the surface of the litter. And it is not buried very deep. And what do you think that they use to bury it?? Their paws. How do they clean their paws. With their mouth. If you want your cat to spend years of cleaning their feces covered paws with their mouths, walking in urine and feces contaminated litter and then track it all through your house then by all means go for it. I choose a different route and I believe much healthier route for both the cat and their owners. If you do it right it is not as difficult as you might think. It is very important to have a good positive relationship with your kitten and use the techniques of behavior modification with much praise and rewards for good behavior. For Precious it was a piece of cake. She was very responsive to the rewards that I gave her. RC >I adopted a cute all white kitten when she was six weeks old, four > months ago. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > RC Are you going to put no-slip strips on the toilet seat so your kitten isn't as likely to have a mishap and fall into the toilet. I had to rescue my cat, Mabel (RB '87) after she slipped and fell into the toilet. She had all four paws on porcelain and was freaking out as she slipped towards the water. My cat, Tigger (RB '05) slipped into the toilet when she was a kitten. I heard her splash, give a yell and manage to get herself out of there in a hurry. She was lucky and all that got hurt was her dignity. I've kept the lid shut since then. Wendy >Are you going to put no-slip strips on the toilet seat so your kitten isn't >as likely to have a mishap and fall into the toilet. Yes, Wendy. I have already done that. I think that I mentioned it in an earlier post. I forgot to mention that once Precious did fall into the toilet. This was when she was about two months old and jumped up on the toilet I was using after I got up when I flushed it. She slipped in and got a bath. But that did not seem to have any negative impact on her toilet training. But it is why I got the no slip strips for training purposes. I may remove them later as she gets more agile on the seat. She seems to have fairly good balance. > I had to rescue my cat, >Mabel (RB '87) after she slipped and fell into the toilet. She had all four [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >She was lucky and all that got hurt was her dignity. I've kept the lid shut >since then. Precious is pretty nimble. She managed to jump back out when she was just about two months old. I am wondering if she will start using the other toilets to relieve herself. Time will tell. At this point I keep the bathroom doors closed except for Precious'. I do this after finding the entire roll of toilet paper unrolled on the floor. Precious loves unrolling toilet paper. I am glad she does not have to wipe herself after going:-)) RC >>Are you going to put no-slip strips on the toilet seat so your kitten isn't >>as likely to have a mishap and fall into the toilet. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for training purposes. I may remove them later as she gets more agile > on the seat. She seems to have fairly good balance. Yes indeed, a bath... in germ infested waters. Likely far worse than she gets in the litter box. >>I had to rescue my cat, >>Mabel (RB '87) after she slipped and fell into the toilet. She had all four [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > RC > >>>Are you going to put no-slip strips on the toilet seat so your kitten isn't >>>as likely to have a mishap and fall into the toilet. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yes indeed, a bath... in germ infested waters. Yep, real toxic waste. It is amazing she survived:-) > Likely far worse than she >gets in the litter box. Hardly. As soon as she got out I gave her a good bath and cleaned her off. Btw when she fell in, the feces had already been flushed down the toilet and new fresh water was rushing in. Compare that single episode to her every single day of her life walking on feces and urine contaminated litter than she cleans off with her mouth and tracks through the house. Compare that with daily exposure to the dust and residue of the litter which can be toxic to the cat. If a cat lives to fifteen years of age that amounts to over 5000 days of this. And you really think that a *single* dip in the toilet compares to that?? RC >>>>Are you going to put no-slip strips on the toilet seat so your kitten isn't >>>>as likely to have a mishap and fall into the toilet. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > off. Btw when she fell in, the feces had already been flushed down the > toilet and new fresh water was rushing in. Yes, but that water didn't stay fresh long. LOL! > Compare that single episode to her every single day of her life > walking on feces and urine contaminated litter than she cleans off [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > RC > I'm beginning to smell a troll. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > I'm beginning to smell a troll. I wonder if Precious is a Boston Red Sox fan? :-D > ---MIKE--- > >>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire > > >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > I'm beginning to smell a troll. Or someone who's OCD.  SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ > > I'm beginning to smell a troll. > > Or someone who's OCD. Yep, an OCD troll, or just a nutcase. >> I'm beginning to smell a troll. > >Or someone who's OCD. Would you care to expound upon that. OCD is a condition characterized by recurrent obsessive thoughts and ritualistic behaviors that create much anxiety for the person. Maybe you meant OCPD which is a personality disorder characterized by excessive orderliness and rigidity. In either case neither apply to me. I am just interested in creating a healthy happy environment for my new kitten and thought that eliminating the litter box would do that. And it has. Could it be that the problem is that you are jealous that I won't have to deal with litter anymore and that you who have decided that a litter box is better than a toilet trained cat will have the "pleasure" of removing feces and urine clumps from a litter box for many years. I OTOH will only have to flush the toilet. And when I teach Precious to do that she will truly be a low maintenance cat. Btw, toward that end I attached a string to the toilet handle with her favorite toy attached. Now the trick will be to teach her to only flush when she goes since she loves to watch the toilet water being flushed. RC > Could it be that the problem is that you are jealous that I won't have > to deal with litter anymore and that you who have decided that a > litter box is better than a toilet trained cat will have the > "pleasure" of removing feces and urine clumps from a litter box for > many years. I OTOH will only have to flush the toilet. Nope. Cleaning the box has never bothered me any more than any other household task but then I've never worried about germs. By the way, I ordered the Litter-Lifter that Mary recommended. Can't wait to try it. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ > > Yes, Wendy. I have already done that. I think that I mentioned it in > > an earlier post. I forgot to mention that once Precious did fall into [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes indeed, a bath... in germ infested waters. Likely far worse than she > gets in the litter box. If the OP read The Secret House and realised how many droplets of urine and toilet water fly out of the water with each flush, he'd wonder how much less sanitary a litter box really is. Personally, I think a well-maintained litter box is fine. I can't think of too many cats that have died or even gotten sick from using one (as long as they're not around unhealthy animals). SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >If the OP read The Secret House and realised how many droplets of urine >and toilet water fly out of the water with each flush, he'd wonder how >much less sanitary a litter box really is. There is no comparison. Human urine is generally sterile unless you have a bacterial infection. Feces are another matter although I don't think that fecal material flies out of the toilet with each flush. >Personally, I think a well-maintained litter box is fine. Fine for what? Every time you cat steps in it he/she is getting feces on their paws. Cat feces can transmit toxoplasmosis to humans. This is especially dangerous for pregnant women. They also get litter on their paws which they clean with their mouths. Unless you use a litter like Feline Pine the litter likely is not very good for the cats to ingest. > I can't think >of too many cats that have died or even gotten sick from using one (as >long as they're not around unhealthy animals). How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off each life of a cat that must step in this unsanitary litter every day of their life. I don't know the definitive answer to the question but strongly suspect that a cat that uses the toilet and never is exposed to either their own feces or litter will be a healthier cat and the home they are raised in will be a healthier and cleaner home. Just my opinion but seems to make sense to me. YMMV. RC > How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter > box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off > each life of a cat that must step in this unsanitary litter every day > of their life. Yep, all these cats living to 18-22 years old are dying from cat litter. I like the "troll" theory. And the lazy boy one. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter >> box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off >> each life of a cat that must step in this unsanitary litter every day >> of their life. > >Yep, all these cats living to 18-22 years old are dying from cat litter. Does that mean that cigarettes are safe because of all those ninety year old people who have been smoking for most of their lives?? There are probably as many 18-20 year old cats using cat litter as there are nine year old smokers. They both are fairly uncommon. Your attempt to refute my concerns really falls flat with that statement. Perhaps a course in logic may help. >I like the "troll" theory. And the lazy boy one. :) A troll is an individual who deliberately makes an inflammatory post to get a negative reaction from people. An example of a troll would be someone who called me a "lazy boy" for simply wanting to create a healthy environment for my new kitten by toilet training and getting rid of a litter box. Or someone who facetiously says that old cats are dying from cat litter. Or someone who says I have OCD. You see all the above statements have nothing to do with my post about toilet training but are designed to get a negative reaction out of me. Seems like I might be right about some of you being jealous that while my cat is using the toilet you guys will be spending countless hours over the next several years dealing with the litter box. Sorry bout that. There was absolutely nothing inflammatory about my initial post about toilet training my new kitten. Someone responded with concerns and I tried to address them in a respectful manner. Now there appear to be individuals who are accusing me of being a troll but are making troll-like posts in an apparent effort to get a rise out of me by calling me a lazy boy and other such nonsense (although the Red Sox fan comment did get a rise out of Precious.. How did you know she was a Yanks fan?) Sorry but I am not interested in the troll bait. However if there are people interested in toilet training or in discussing the pros and cons of it I would be happy to do so. If OTOH you guys want to flame me then go right ahead. Matters not much to me. Stupid is as stupid does. RC >>>How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter >>>box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > RC Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. > Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. Yes, that's what I would like to see -- the number of cats killed by litter boxes. I hinted at it earlier, but it was not forthcoming. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. > > Yes, that's what I would like to see -- the number of cats killed by > litter boxes. I hinted at it earlier, but it was not forthcoming. :) Is it just litter boxes or can we include cat litter in this if so how many of us know about the dangers of clumping litter > >> Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is it just litter boxes or can we include cat litter in this if so how > many of us know about the dangers of clumping litter Or the dangers of cat beds. They must be loaded with germies. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> >> Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Or the dangers of cat beds. They must be loaded with germies. :) What about anywhere the cat sits shortly after getting out of the box. I'm sure there are unsanitary 'butt prints' all over the place. How often does the op shampoo and sanitize his floor coverings. W RC wrote: >>A troll is an individual who deliberately >> makes an inflammatory post to get a >> negative reaction from people. A troll is also a person who starts a thread which he knows will start an argument and then persists on and on when challenged. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') >RC wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >A troll is also a person who starts a thread which he knows will start >an argument and then persists on and on when challenged. So anyone who brings up a controversial topic and then tries to respond to challenges to his opinion is a troll?? Or do you like to just make up definitions as you go along? Actually trolls usually drop their bomb and then watch the fireworks. For example someone coming into this newsgroup saying that cats are stupid and dogs are the best pets or something of that nature. Often posters are erroneously called a troll when members are unable to rebut their arguments. They get frustrated and start calling them names. This is especially true of new [posters in a group. RC > ---MIKE--- >>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire > >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') >>RC wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to rebut their arguments. They get frustrated and start calling them > names. This is especially true of new [posters in a group. Here is one for you... Cats don't wipe their butts with toilet paper. There are always little bits, even if not visible to the eye, of crap left on their behinds. These little bits of crap may drop off on their own or be deposited when the cat sits somewhere. To get rid of this issue, do you plan on teaching your cat to use toilet paper? ...or do you have another solution? > RC > >> ---MIKE--- >> >>>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >>>>(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') Look, My cats do go on the counter and the kitchen and diningroom table. I never place food directly on any of those items, always on a plate. There are minute amounts of fecal matter all over, including the arm rests in theaters, banisters and worst offenders of all are children's play equipment. Wash your hands before you eat. -- Barb Of course I don't look busy, I did it right the first time. > Look, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Of course I don't look busy, > I did it right the first time. Washing hands doesn't help. The minute you touch the door knob to escape the washroom, you are contaminated. The minute you touch the chair to pull it out and sit yourself, you are contaminated. >> Look, >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The minute you touch the chair to pull it out and sit yourself, you are > contaminated. Yep, people should just quit worrying about it and just accept that sh.t happens! ;> SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >>> Look, >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Yep, people should just quit worrying about it and just accept that sh.t >happens! ;> Actually people should realize that they cannot completely eliminate germs, bacteria, fecal material etc from their lives. However they can take steps to reducing the exposure. So reasonably frequent washing of hands, toilet training your cat, etc can be done realizing that neither will absolutely completely eliminate the exposure. Nothing in life is 100% (cue Joe "I love to argue" Canuck to dispute this as he appears to be an all or nothing thinker). All we can do is our reasonable best. For example just because you cannot eliminate all germs all the time from your hands is not a reason to stop washing your hands altogether. Hand washing just reduces the chance of getting a germ. It does not eliminate it altogether. Toilet training a cat in the same was does not completely eliminate the chances of fecal matter being transmitted by the cat but it sure reduces it greatly due to none of the contaminants (feces, litter) getting on the paws which will then be transferred to other areas of the house and to the GI tract of the cat when it cleans itself. RC >>>> Look, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > RC Just a suggestion, but you might want to stop worrying so much about germs and start worrying about developing a sense of humor! ;> SignatureHugs, CatNipped See all my masters at: http://www.PossiblePlaces.com/CatNipped/ >>>>Look, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > RC Shucks, and here I thought you would focus on the more practical matters of how to eliminate germs. Instead, you appear to be trolling. :-D >> Look, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > The minute you touch the chair to pull it out and sit yourself, you are > contaminated. Oh, don't go perpetuating that myth, you are much better of washing your hands after using a public restroom. They have actually studied this in Germany and found that the doorknob was not a good place to bacteria to develop because it was made of stainless steel. Sometimes if there is a trash can right at the the door I get all "Monk" and I open it with my last used paper towel and trow it in the trash before leaving. Don't forget cats (most) clean their buts with their tongues, they've been doing it for centuries so it's a well implanted behavior and can be assumed it is safe for them. They are fine with it, believe me.. The dust I agree with you, I found a litter that they like, clumps well and doesn't have much dust if any, I clean it carefully daily and change it every week to a washed one with new litter, what can sometimes be a pain but it builds my character and its nice to have that chore, they give me so much, it's the least I can do. Kudos for teaching your cat that, teaching an animal a trick is something very commendable on it's own, teaching a cat to use the toilet would rank very high on any trick list. Like you see it's not everybody's cup of tea, but it's not worth fighting over it on Usenet, those posts are archived forever and the "you trolled" "did not" "did too's" just clutters a very nice (the best) searchable database of everything related to cats health and behavior, you can even find how to toilet train a cat there.. ; ) Maybe if you took pictures of the process you can make an Angelfire site explaining other people how you did it. "If you build it and put the right words in the right places Google will find it" I would like to try it with a kitty someday, as long as kitty is having fun because the choice is always his. - chris >Don't forget cats (most) clean their buts with their tongues, they've >been doing it for centuries so it's a well implanted behavior and can be >assumed it is safe for them. They are fine with it, believe me.. I agree it is probably safe for cats to clean their own butt. Perhaps that answers Canuck Joe's question about how a cat cleans their butt without toilet paper. And when illnesses are contracted by the fecal oral route such as polio it is the fecal material from other people that causes problems, not our own fecal material. >The dust I agree with you, I found a litter that they like, clumps well >and doesn't have much dust if any, I clean it carefully daily and change >it every week to a washed one with new litter, what can sometimes be a >pain but it builds my character and its nice to have that chore, they >give me so much, it's the least I can do. Yes, it is the litter that they clean off their paws and inhale that could be a problem for the health of the cat. If you have not tried Feline Pine I would highly recommend it. It smells great and lasts a very long time. No need to scoop out urine, only solid wastes as the urine turns to sawdust. >Kudos for teaching your cat that, teaching an animal a trick is >something very commendable on it's own, teaching a cat to use the toilet >would rank very high on any trick list. I was surprised at how easy it was. I think it was because I went very slowly and spent much time with Precious as she did her thing in the toilet. I would say I averaged about 30 minutes to an hour a day in working with her on the toilet training. Most of the time was spent waiting for her to go. The best strategy was to crate train her such that all night she would be confined to a crate and then let out early in the morning to do her business. > Like you see it's not >everybody's cup of tea, but it's not worth fighting over it on Usenet, >those posts are archived forever and the "you trolled" "did not" "did >too's" just clutters a very nice (the best) searchable database of >everything related to cats health and behavior, you can even find how to >toilet train a cat there.. ; ) I agree. My initial post was not at all inflammatory and simply described in detail why I decided to toilet train and how I went about it. I also made myself available to answer any questions someone might have. Many of the responses to my post have been inflammatory, provocative and troll-like. But as I said before I realize that often certain usenet regulars are just juvenile individuals who have difficulty communicating in a mature manner. >Maybe if you took pictures of the process you can make an Angelfire site >explaining other people how you did it. "If you build it and put the >right words in the right places Google will find it" Actually I am going to be getting a video camera so when I get a link to Precious doing her thing I will post it. I also discovered a great group specifically for discussing toilet training cats. It is moderated so that the troll-like anti-toilet training folks would not be heard. It is at Yahoo Groups. >I would like to try it with a kitty someday, as long as kitty is having >fun because the choice is always his. Of course. If you want to try it, the earlier the better. How old is your kitty? I think the reason that it went so smoothly is that I started the toilet training right after she was weaned from her mother. She only used litter for very short period of time and the litter gradually reduced over that time. It is called the disappearing litter method. The key is to go very slowly, spend a lot of time with the kitty and give him much praise and reward for good behavior. Good luck. RC >- >chris >>Don't forget cats (most) clean their buts with their tongues, they've >>been doing it for centuries so it's a well implanted behavior and can be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that answers Canuck Joe's question about how a cat cleans their butt > without toilet paper. And when illnesses are contracted by the fecal Correction: That wasn't a question. Learn to read. > oral route such as polio it is the fecal material from other people > that causes problems, not our own fecal material. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >>- >>chris >>The dust I agree with you, I found a litter that they like, clumps well >>and doesn't have much dust if any, I clean it carefully daily and change [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > very long time. No need to scoop out urine, only solid wastes as the > urine turns to sawdust. I'm no in the US, but I do use a litter that is made from wood byproducts, mine does clump the urine and just starts turning into sawdust when it is becoming saturated, right on time for the new one.. >>Like you see it's not >>everybody's cup of tea, but it's not worth fighting over it on Usenet, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > certain usenet regulars are just juvenile individuals who have > difficulty communicating in a mature manner. Yeah, Usenet regulars can be quite territorial, I can just imagine people pissing all over their monitor. I mean, some posters where out of line, but after your 2nd or 3rd post you started to sound like we are all mean and hate our cats for not toilet training them as if it was the only way to go, this is what may have tickled people off, it did got me writing to you in the first place and I hope everybody can see I mean well.. >>I would like to try it with a kitty someday, as long as kitty is having >>fun because the choice is always his. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The key is to go very slowly, spend a lot of time with the kitty and > give him much praise and reward for good behavior. Both my cats just had their 5th birthday, they are pretty much happy about the "I do what they want when they want" arrangement we got going here, not sure they would bother with the reward system now, I'm also Ok with it as long as they put up with all the new places I had to move to over the last 5 years. -- chris >>>The dust I agree with you, I found a litter that they like, clumps well >>>and doesn't have much dust if any, I clean it carefully daily and change [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >byproducts, mine does clump the urine and just starts turning into >sawdust when it is becoming saturated, right on time for the new one.. Sounds very similar to feline pine. I was amazed at how the pellets are converted to sawdust with absolutely no urine odor. I would definitely go with a similar product if I was using litter on a continuous basis. >>>Like you see it's not >>>everybody's cup of tea, but it's not worth fighting over it on Usenet, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Yeah, Usenet regulars can be quite territorial, I can just imagine >people pissing all over their monitor. Yeah, I guess some people are not toilet trained either:-) >I mean, some posters where out of line, but after your 2nd or 3rd post >you started to sound like we are all mean and hate our cats for not >toilet training them as if it was the only way to go, this is what may >have tickled people off, it did got me writing to you in the first place >and I hope everybody can see I mean well.. It certainly was not my intention to do that but I was simply responding to inappropriate posts by several members here. The only thing in my original post that may have stirred someone up was my comment about how I wanted to avoid the tracking of feces and litter, and the possible health concerns to the cats. If someone was feeling unsure about their decision to use litter that might cause them to feel defensive. AFter all if you feel comfortable with your decision to use litter, you would not get upset if someone talked about toilet training and why they were doing it. In going back to old posts (I am new to this group) I see that they have a pattern of being argumentative. I will not name names since it is likely they will respond to this post anyway with their typical inflammatory nature. But it is characteristic of usenet groups to have several regulars who become very territorial and get threatened by new posters who they see as intruding into their territory. When it becomes obvious what their modus operandi is I generally just ignore their posts. >>>I would like to try it with a kitty someday, as long as kitty is having >>>fun because the choice is always his. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >with it as long as they put up with all the new places I had to move to >over the last 5 years. Cool. Good luck to you. And may your cats live long healthy and happy lives. RC >>>>The dust I agree with you, I found a litter that they like, clumps well >>>>and doesn't have much dust if any, I clean it carefully daily and change [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > RC You are certainly welcome to participate as you have. >>I'm not in the US, but I do use a litter that is made from wood >>byproducts, mine does clump the urine and just starts turning into [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > definitely go with a similar product if I was using litter on a > continuous basis. One litter I've heard about that sounded really interesting was Purina Yesterday's News, I would love try that. Plus its made from recycled newspaper, what better use for it than that? A second advantage I see in those litters is that they are much lighter than "mineral" litters. I also don't get Silica litters.. It's so strange, I've never tried it and don't think it would work so well, not to mention every time you get a silica bag with something it says *Do not Eat* on them.. > In going back to old posts (I am new to this group) I see that they > have a pattern of being argumentative. I will not name names since it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > becomes obvious what their modus operandi is I generally just ignore > their posts. Usenet 101, it's actually quite like Life 101.. I'm planning on properly introducing my cats to the group as soon as I upload some pictures.. > Cool. Good luck to you. And may your cats live long healthy and happy > lives. > > RC Thanks, same to you. -- chris --I always wanted to name a cat "Cat"-- What about anywhere the cat sits shortly after getting out of the box. I'm > sure there are unsanitary 'butt prints' all over the place. How often does > the op shampoo and sanitize his floor coverings. > > W Not only his floors, but just think, kitty jumps up on the kitchen counter and sits there with her butt, fresh from pooping. Ewww, those germs!!!!!!!! >>>>How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter >>>>box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > >Show me a study on the effects of felines using litter boxes. Sorry, don't have one. I am just using common sense that litter boxes would be more harmful to both cats and owners compared to toilet trained cats. I have given some examples. It is well known that some cats can transmit toxoplasmosis in their feces and that humans can contract this illness by contact with cat feces. Toilet trained cats will eliminate this risk for obvious reasons. There is research on rats that indicate that silica particles are cancer producing. I am not aware of research done on cats. Cats who have respiratory illnesses have much higher levels of silica in their lungs so their may be a connection between clay litters and respiratory illnesses. It is difficult to do such long term studies since most all house cats use litter and you would need a control. You cannot compare to outdoor cats since outdoor environment generally is harsher than indoor environment so that there would be too many confounding variables. You would need to get a group of toilet trained cats and compare them over long term with litter trained cats. AFAIK this has not been done. It just makes sense to me that if you can avoid having your cat lick off their paws, feces and cat litter, and avoid having them inhale the silica particles in clay litter that it would be safer and better for them. But I sure can understand not wanting to take the trouble to toilet train a cat. While toilet training Precious was not that difficult it did take a lot of time and patience and I suspect that some cats may be more difficult to train than others. I did it because I truly believed that it was in Precious' best interest so the time and energy were well worth it. I suspect that there are those who in an effort to justify their decision to use litter will want to rationalize why it is better than toilet training or why it is not really that harmful. I mean what cat owner would want to expose their cats to a harmful and toxic environment. So the reaction of many of you is really not that surprising. I originally made the post simply to tell you all of my success with toilet training a cat in the hope of generating discussion about it and to help anyone who might be interested in trying it. I really have no interest in where this thread seems to be going. If anyone is seriously interested in discussing this, fine. If anyone wants to try to toilet train their kittens/cats I might be of help in getting you started. I do understand that these groups often attract insecure and sophomoric people who have difficulty communicating in a mature manner resulting in their flaming people gratuitously. Such is the nature of usenet. I also understand that these groups often developed cliques and then when a new poster arrives they may feel threatened and respond accordingly. From now on I will only respond to those who seem genuinely interested in discussing this topic. For all you others, knock yourselves out:-) RC > >> How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter > >> box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are probably as many 18-20 year old cats using cat litter as there are > nine year old smokers. They both are fairly uncommon. Wow, that's quite an argument. A nonsensical one, but quite an argument. > Perhaps a course in logic may help. I agree. Let us know when you take one. :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> >Yep, all these cats living to 18-22 years old are dying from cat litter. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Wow, that's quite an argument. A nonsensical one, but quite an argument. I am sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought your comment was suggesting that because some cats live to 18-22 years using cat litter that cat litter was not harmful. That is not what you were implying? If that is not what you were saying then I apologize. If that was what you were saying then by analogy saying that all those ninety year old men who smoked cigarettes are dying from cigarette smoking would be similar argument which as you seemed to understand was a nonsensical one. Just because some people can smoke cigarettes and live to a ripe old age does not mean that cigarettes are safe. And just because some cats can live to 18-22 years and use cat litter does not mean that cat litter is safe. Sorry you think that my analogy is nonsensical. But I found that your original assertion was pretty nonsensical unless I misinterpreted it. If you would like to clarify go right ahead. RC > >> >Yep, all these cats living to 18-22 years old are dying from cat litter. > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > smoking would be similar argument which as you seemed to understand > was a nonsensical one. Not at all. There is a lot of evidence about the dangers of smoking, and a disproportionate amount of smokers die of lung cancer, emphysema, and heart disease compared to the nonsmoking general population. There is a direct cause and effect link between one and the other, with smoking raising the risk significantly. Some people can and do smoke 'til they're 90, perhaps protected by genetics, but that does not change the fact that there is significantly heightened risk for many -- risk that has been demonstrated. Same with cholesterol. Some people can eat high-fat diets 'til they die at 90, but most start suffering ill effects -- diabetes, heart problems, etc. -- somewhere in the mid-40s and later. > Just because some people can smoke cigarettes and live to a ripe old > age does not mean that cigarettes are safe. And just because some cats > can live to 18-22 years and use cat litter does not mean that cat > litter is safe. Sorry you think that my analogy is nonsensical. But I > found that your original assertion was pretty nonsensical unless I > misinterpreted it. Most indoor cats live to ripe old ages these days. Those who die younger than, say, 14, tend to have a genetic predisposition to problems, or have contracted a life-threatening disease. In any case, no one has shown *any* linkage to litter boxes and cat morbidity. Unlike with smokers, cats are not dying off en masse from using a litter box. The reason you've been accused of trolling is that you took a morally superior attitude about the "risks" of cat litter with no evidence to support your position, only a belief that makes sense mainly to you. I personally don't care what you do, and if others wish to spend their time training their cats, that's fine. But those of us who use litter boxes aren't doing wrong by our cats or ourselves, either, just because we eschew your method. I think there's a ton more dangerous environmental factors than litter, which, if well maintained, should not contain any fecal matter. My cat does his business once a day, neatly, and I scoop. End of story. SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> >> >Yep, all these cats living to 18-22 years old are dying from cat litter. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >fact that there is significantly heightened risk for many -- risk that >has been demonstrated. I agree. And just because there are some cats that use litter and live to 20 does not mean that on the average cats would like longer and healthier if they were toilet trained instead. We just don't have the data since so few cats are toilet trained. >> Just because some people can smoke cigarettes and live to a ripe old >> age does not mean that cigarettes are safe. And just because some cats [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Most indoor cats live to ripe old ages these days. Most cats live 18-22 years?? Could you please tell me where your data is from. > Those who die younger >than, say, 14, tend to have a genetic predisposition to problems, or >have contracted a life-threatening disease. Assuming you are correct about this, it could be that the combination of using litter plus a predisposition may increase the likelihood of problems. I don't know but common sense tells me that toilet training would be the safest method. > In any case, no one has >shown *any* linkage to litter boxes and cat morbidity. Unlike with >smokers, cats are not dying off en masse from using a litter box. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The jury is out. But cats with respiratory problems have a much greater concentration of silica in their lungs than cats without respiratory problems. Silica is in the clay litters. >The reason you've been accused of trolling is that you took a morally >superior attitude about the "risks" of cat litter with no evidence to >support your position, only a belief that makes sense mainly to you. Morally superior attitude?? You seem a bit defensive. It is my opinion that a toilet trained cat is exposed to fewer toxins than a litter trained cat and that it is less likely to develop physical problems. It is my opinion based upon common sense. It has nothing to do with moral superiority. Are you saying it does not make sense to you that if a cat completely avoids contact with its feces, urine, and litter that it is more likely that it will remain healthy?? Do you think it is more likely that a cat will remain healthy if it is exposed on a daily basis to feces, urine (licking it off its paws) and eating/inhaling litter compared to toilet training. Please explain your logic. Remember that just because there is no scientific study showing that litter trained cats have a higher morbidity does not mean it is not so. Such a study would be extremely difficult to do. > I >personally don't care what you do, and if others wish to spend their >time training their cats, that's fine. But those of us who use litter >boxes aren't doing wrong by our cats or ourselves, either, just because >we eschew your method. Maybe you are and maybe you are not. You don't know that exposure to all those contaminants is not increasing the risk of disease. Common sense tells me toilet trained cats will be exposed to fewer contaminants and toxins. We can agree to disagree. >I think there's a ton more dangerous environmental factors than litter, >which, if well maintained, should not contain any fecal matter. I am sure that there are. We can only control those factors that we can control. Litter is one factor that can be controlled/eliminated. I understand that you don't think there is any fecal matter once a cat has defecated into a litter box if it is well maintained. It is loaded with fecal matter even after removing the large pieces of feces. Fecal matter gets on the cat's paws and they then walk around the house. The only litter without any fecal matter is fresh litter. > My cat >does his business once a day, neatly, and I scoop. End of story. I am sure you are a very conscientious litter scooper. But you are kidding yourself if you think that there is not a lot of fecal matter remaining in the litter after you scoop. It is loaded with fecal material. And it does not take much fecal material to cause disease. I don't know if you are old enough to remember polio. That is transmitted by the fecal oral route and you would not see the feces that was being transferred since it was so small. That is why hand washing is so important. RC Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The jury is out. But > cats with respiratory problems have a much greater concentration of > silica in their lungs than cats without respiratory problems. Silica > is in the clay litters. I use a wheat based all natural litter for my cats. There has been some talk about the dangers of clumping litters but I don't believe anything has ever been proven, one way or the other. > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The jury is out. But >> cats with respiratory problems have a much greater concentration of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some talk about the dangers of clumping litters but I don't believe > anything has ever been proven, one way or the other. Goog le the dangers of clumping litter it is usually not dangerous but can specially in small cats or kittens cause blockage > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The jury is out. But > >> cats with respiratory problems have a much greater concentration of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Goog le the dangers of clumping litter it is usually not dangerous but can > specially in small cats or kittens cause blockage I do remember reading some articles about it. I used to use clumping litter, but stopped after my cat who was old and ill had it stuck to her paws like cement, and I do mean cement. It was horrible! I imagine because she was so ill that her not being able to get out of the litterbox quickly and maybe standing in the litter for several minutes caused the litter to become impacted to her paws. I ended up having to very, very carefully cut it out with small manicure scissors. I can imagine what that stuff would do to the insides of cat. >> How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter >> box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I like the "troll" theory. And the lazy boy one. :) I just see a lot of people that like being argumentative and giving the usual welcome a new poster to rpchb. -mhd >>> How would you know if their sickness was secondary to the litter >>> box,especially the silica based litter? How many years are taken off [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I just see a lot of people that like being argumentative and giving > the usual welcome a new poster to rpchb. Bingo this person wins a prize to bad the prize is the truth "Diane" <delenn@nospamatmindspring.com> wrote : > Personally, I think a well-maintained litter box is fine. I can't think > of too many cats that have died or even gotten sick from using one (as > long as they're not around unhealthy animals). It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered with taking care of a cat box. > It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered > with taking care of a cat box. I am " annoyed " with that email. Who do I call again? :-) > > It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered > > with taking care of a cat box. > > I am " annoyed " with that email. Who do I call again? :-) The senator from Pennsylvania. And I'm perpetually annoyed. Whom can I blame? :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.blogspot.com/ >> > It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered >> > with taking care of a cat box. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The senator from Pennsylvania. And I'm perpetually annoyed. Whom can I > blame? :) the liberals > > > It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered > > > with taking care of a cat box. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The senator from Pennsylvania. And I'm perpetually annoyed. Whom can I > blame? :) Everybody usually blames me. Oh, what the heck, come on, you know you wanna! >> > > It is nothing more than lazy boys who don't want to be bothered >> > > with taking care of a cat box. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Everybody usually blames me. Oh, what the heck, come on, you know you > wanna! You are to easy to do that to :-) You've done a great thing and over the years have saved yourself a ton of money. ( Litter isn't cheap.) On TV I saw a grown cat looking into the toilet bowl and putting her paw in and then the cat flushed the toilet and then ran over and watched the water go down. Me, I don't think I would have the patience to toilet train a cat. -- Barb Of course I don't look busy, I did it right the first time. >You've done a great thing and over the years have saved yourself a ton of >money. ( Litter isn't cheap.) Money was not really my primary consideration although it is a nice side benefit. I spent a total of less than $30 on litter to toilet train my cat and if I am lucky will never have to spend a penny more on litter again. Now I can use the saved money to pamper Precious with toys:-) I probably saved well over a thousand dollars over the life of Precious. My primary consideration however was the health and well being of Precious. >On TV I saw a grown cat looking into the toilet bowl and putting her paw in >and then the cat flushed the toilet and then ran over and watched the water >go down. Precious likes to watch the water run down after I flush the toilet too. Every time I go into the bathroom she follows just to watch the flush. She is not at all spooked by the water. > Me, I don't think I would have the patience to toilet train a cat. It does take a lot of patience and persistence which is why it is ironic that I was called a "lazy boy" for doing so. But I did not really take that or other derogatory insults personally since they were likely made by very insecure and immature individuals who have nothing better to do. But the rewards in terms of cost, time and likely improved health of cat are well worth it. In addition to saving all that money I am saving a lot of time in dealing with litter and litter box. And if I am wrong and it is not healthier for the cat, it certainly is not more harmful than litter. It may just be a wash. RC
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