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IAMS experimentation video

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kaeli - 19 Mar 2004 20:15 GMT
Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
This is what happens to dogs (and one kitten) in the name of "research".

The rest of you, don't. It's not pretty.
In fact, it's very, very sad.

Signature

--
~kaeli~
Synonym: the word you use in place of a word you can't
spell.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Jon C - 20 Mar 2004 00:10 GMT
Is there any evidence whatsoever that this is at an IAMS lab?  Maybe it's at
a lab doing research for Authority that Iams has contracted for research in
the past.  Or maybe it's in a PETA member's house.  Who knows?

Jon

> Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
> http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
> This is what happens to dogs (and one kitten) in the name of "research".
>
> The rest of you, don't. It's not pretty.
> In fact, it's very, very sad.
Liz - 20 Mar 2004 00:24 GMT
> Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
> http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> --

I won´t even look. These things really get to me. Anyway, if you think
Iams is the only one doing it, you´re wrong. Don´t even try to find
out what they do in universities in the name of research. Here a lot
of vet students steal animals from the university because they feel
sorry for them and I definitively support that kind of theft. I could
never go to vet school. :(
PawsForThought - 20 Mar 2004 02:09 GMT
>From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net

>Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
>http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
>This is what happens to dogs (and one kitten) in the name of "research".

IAMS is disgusting.  Aren't they owned by Proctor and Gamble?  I've read where
Colgate Palmolive (Hill's) is still involved in animal testing as well,
although they are supposedly trying to get away from it.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
GAUBSTER2 - 20 Mar 2004 21:49 GMT
>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter  (PawsForThought)

>IAMS is disgusting.  Aren't they owned by Proctor and Gamble?  I've read
>where
>Colgate Palmolive (Hill's) is still involved in animal testing as well,
>although they are supposedly trying to get away from it.

For the bazillionth time--Hill's doesn't do animal testing.  But of course, you
knew that..<sigh>

Still on your anti-Hill's smear campaign?
PawsForThought - 21 Mar 2004 05:26 GMT
>From: gaubster2@aol.com  (GAUBSTER2)

>>IAMS is disgusting.  Aren't they owned by Proctor and Gamble?  I've read
>>where
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>you
>knew that..<sigh>

Really?  Check it out for yourself:

http://www.caringconsumer.com/page/CompaniesDo.pdf
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Steve Crane - 21 Mar 2004 16:30 GMT
> >For the bazillionth time--Hill's doesn't do animal testing.  But of course,
> >you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.caringconsumer.com/page/CompaniesDo.pdf

You know Lauren you really are a piece of work. Your uncontrollable and
obsessive compulsive hatred for one company bleeds through with everything
you do.

Your "facts" above are a joke. First of all they come from PETA who is
unquestionably a disgusting organization. Considering they would ban your
ability to even own a pet, I cannot fathom your support of them. Considering
thier cash support for convicted terrorists, considering thier disgusting
comparison of chickens to Jewish Holocaust victims, considering the fact
that they spend less that 1/10th of 1% on animals and the rest goes to
salaries and the list goes on and on. View this web site for further
information about the amazing Peta organization.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/

Now as to your allegations, you know exactly what you've done. You have
deliberately inferred that Hill's conducts testing similar to the Peta
purported IAMS video which is BS and you know it. Hill's does do testing on
animals to satisfy AAFCO feeding requirments. Hill's does do _NON_ invasive
testing to learn new advances in nutrition. Hill's continues to do testing
on nutritional products which have saved literally hundreds of thousands of
animals over the past fifty years. That very testing which delivered the
ability to correct most canine victims of canine Alzheimer's and is now
being applied to humans with this ghastly disease. That testing which
provided the very basis for understanding cat and dog nutrition over the
past fifty years. In case Lauren misses it non-invasive means no surgical
procedures of any kind.

But then Lauren knew all this all along, she just couldn't resist taking
deliberate and deceptive pot shots at a company she has an obsessive hatred
for.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has been described as
"by far the most successful radical organization in America." The key word
is radical. PETA seeks "total animal liberation," according to its president
and co-founder, Ingrid Newkirk. That means no meat or dairy, of course; but
it also means no aquariums, no circuses, no hunting or fishing, no fur or
leather, and no medical research using animals. PETA is even opposed to the
use of seeing-eye dogs.
Amidst the dozens of animal rights organizations, PETA occupies the niche
of -- in Newkirk's own words -- "complete press sluts." Endlessly seeking
media exposure, PETA sends out dozens of press releases every week.

In the past, PETA has handled the press for the Animal Liberation Front
(ALF), a violent, underground group of fanatics who plant firebombs in
restaurants, destroy butcher shops, and torch research labs. The FBI
considers ALF among America's most active and prolific terrorist groups, but
PETA compares it to the Underground Railroad and the French Resistance. More
than 20 years after its inception, PETA continues to hire convicted ALF
militants and funds their legal defense. In at least one case, court records
show that Ingrid Newkirk herself was involved in an ALF arson.
PETA has even begun to adopt the tactics of an ALF offshoot known as SHAC
(Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty). This group is notorious for taking
protests outside the boardroom and into the living room, attacking their
targets at their homes.

In 2001, three masked SHAC members brutally bludgeoned a medical researcher
outside his home in England. The lead attacker was arrested and sentenced to
three years in prison. A few months later, SHAC attacked another research
industry employee on his doorstep with a chemical spray to his eyes, leaving
him temporarily blinded and writhing in pain. The following year, Newkirk
was asked her opinion of SHAC in the Boston Herald. Her response? "More
power to SHAC if they can get someone's attention."

By 2003, PETA activists had adopted SHAC's protest techniques, stalking and
harassing fast-food restaurant executives. Not content to write letters and
picket the chain restaurant's offices, PETA's leaders met with the CEO's
pastor, and visited his country club and the manager of one of his favorite
restaurants. PETA activists, one dressed in a chicken suit, even protested
at the church of two executives, annoying worshipers by driving a truck with
giant screens of slaughterhouse video back and forth along the street.

In an effort to win more media exposure, PETA has adopted the
counter-intuitive tactic of buying stock in restaurant and food companies
that serve and sell meat. After buying just enough shares to qualify, PETA's
pattern is to introduce shareholder resolutions that would require
animal-rights-oriented practices in the way animals are handled and
slaughtered.

PETA's goal as a shareholder, of course, is not to turn a profit. Its
resolutions, if passed, would increase the cost of doing business and lower
the value of everyone's investment. The group has claimed that it's "not
trying to remove meat from the menu." But with a stated long-term goal of
"total animal liberation," pushing for animal-welfare changes is just a
first step. PETA's short-term goals are to economically cripple these
companies, force them to increase the retail price of meat, and nudge
consumers toward eating less of it.

PETA collected more than $16 million in donations in 2002 alone, but few
donors understand exactly where their money is going. During the past ten
years, PETA has spent four times as much on criminals and their legal
defense than it has on shelters, spay-neuter programs, and other efforts
that actually help animals.
From both a moral and a legal standpoint, there are far too many
objectionable things about PETA to list here in detail. But the following
"top ten list" is a good start:

PETA is not an animal welfare organization.

PETA spends less than one percent of its multi-million dollar budget
actually helping animals. The group euthanized (killed) more than 1,300 cats
and dogs in 1999 alone, preferring to spend its money on cheap publicity
stunts and criminal defense, rather than finding the animals suitable homes.

PETA assaults common decency.

PETA's leadership has compared animal farmers to serial killer (and
cannibal) Jeffrey Dahmer. They proclaimed in a 2003 exhibit that chickens
are as valuable as Jewish Holocaust victims. They announced with a 2001
billboard that a shark attack on a little boy was "revenge" against humans
who had it coming anyway. They have branded parents who feed their kids meat
and milk "child abusers." In 2002 PETA organized a campaign to sabotage a
popular Thanksgiving hotline, which provides free advice about cooking
turkeys. The group has even contemplated (literally) dancing on the grave of
Kentucky Fried Chicken's Colonel Sanders. And in 2003, PETA president Ingrid
Newkirk wrote to Yasser Arafat, pleading with him to make certain no animals
are harmed in Palestinian suicide-bombing attacks.

PETA receives rock-bottom ratings from charity watchdogs.
Charity Navigator, the nation's largest nonpartisan evaluator of non-profit
organizations, gives PETA a rating of one-star ("poor"). It says PETA "fails
to meet industry standards and performs well below most charities in its
cause." PETA's "Foundation to Support Animal Protection" -- now doing
business as "The PETA Foundation" -- was one of just 23 organizations
nationwide to receive zero stars ("exceptionally poor").

PETA peddles its "animal liberation" food agenda through a medical front
group that pretends to offer objective nutritional advice.
A group misleadingly named the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine
(PCRM) has duped the press into believing that it is an association of
conscientious doctors promoting good nutrition. In fact, it is a PETA front
group. PCRM and PETA share money, offices, and staff. The American Medical
Association calls PCRM a "pseudo-physicians group," has demanded that PCRM
stop its "inappropriate and unethical tactics used to manipulate public
opinion," and argues that PCRM has been "blatantly misleading Americans" and
"concealing its true purpose as an animal 'rights' organization."

Taking a page out of PETA's press book, PCRM has labeled U.S. school lunches
"weapons of mass destruction" because they include meat and milk. PCRM's
president, a psychiatrist named Neal Barnard, recently duped Newsweek into
covering his "study" (of seven people) supposedly demonstrating that a vegan
diet helped prevent type-2 diabetes. In 2002, PCRM was cited in major
newspapers more than 550 times. It was identified as an animal-rights
organization in only a handful of those cases.

PETA exploits sick people.
PETA famously suggested that drinking milk causes cancer, in an
advertisement mocking then-NYC Mayor Rudy Guliani with the words "Got
Prostate Cancer?" PETA has also erected a billboard reading: "Got Sick Kids?
Drinking milk contributes to colic, ear infections, allergies, diabetes,
obesity, and many other illnesses." In 2003 the group held a demonstration
in front of a Toronto-area hospital that was under a SARS-related
quarantine, spuriously alleging that animal husbandry has something to do
with the epidemic's spread. Upon hearing that Charlton Heston had fallen ill
with Alzheimer's Disease, Ingrid Newkirk suggested that PETA would "toy with
the idea that both Alzheimer's and CJD [Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease] are
related to meat consumption." According to a profile in The New Yorker, she
considered "renting billboards that would display a large picture of a gaunt
Charlton Heston foaming at the mouth."

PETA propagandizes children.
PETA's website for kids puts a skull and crossbones next to the logo of
Disney's Animal Kingdom and tells the horror story of a fast food restaurant
employee who "had taken a patty into the potty with her, then returned and
said she had peed on it." It hands out trading cards to kids that allege
drinking milk will make them fat, pimply, flatulent, and phlegm-ridden. PETA
also has a child-themed website, and a kiddie-oriented magazine, called
GRRR! Kids Bite Back. The name is significant, as it is intended to prep
children to identify with the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), which has
long-used the phrase "bite back" in its promotional materials. In fact, as
early as 1991, convicted ALF arsonist and PETA grantee Rodney Coronado was
calling his own crime spree "Operation Bite Back." PETA also sends "humane
education lecturer" Gary Yourofsky into high schools -- and even middle
schools -- to promote the "animal liberation" agenda. Yourofsky is a
convicted ALF criminal who has said he would support burning down medical
research labs even if humans were trapped in the flames.

PETA distorts religious teachings.
Not only does PETA oppose the age-old Jewish tradition of Kosher slaughter,
but the group's leaders maintain that Jews have misinterpreted their own
sacred texts on the subject. They also claim, ignoring mountains of
scripture to the contrary, that Jesus was a vegetarian. PETA celebrated
Easter in 2003 with a billboard depicting a pig, reading "he died for your
sins." PETA also insists (again, selectively ignoring contradictory
evidence) that Muhammad "was not a meat-eater." In his speeches to
adolescents, Gary Yourofsky regularly compares himself to Gandhi and Jesus
Christ. PETA's in-school presentations include the application of "do unto
others as you would have them do unto you" to birds and turtles -- not
people.

PETA opposes life-saving medical research.
PETA has repeatedly attacked groups like the March of Dimes, the Pediatric
AIDS Foundation, and the American Cancer Society, for conducting animal
testing to find cures for birth defects and life-threatening diseases. When
asked if she would oppose an experiment on five thousand rats if it would
result in a cure for AIDS, Newkirk responded: "Would you be opposed to
experiments on your daughter if you knew it would save fifty million
people?" In addition to opposing any and all medical research that uses
animals, PETA also insults medical professionals by arguing, with a straight
face, that animal testing is a counterproductive means of finding cures for
human diseases.

PETA devalues human life.
PETA's efforts to treasure every mosquito and cockroach invariably lead them
to hate human beings for using bug spray and RAID. Ingrid Newkirk argues
that as human beings, "we're the biggest blight on the face of the earth."
For more on how PETA devalues human life, click on "Motivation."

PETA openly supports violence and terrorist activity.
PETA has long-standing ties to militant groups like the Animal Liberation
Front (ALF), and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF). The FBI calls these
criminal groups a "serious terrorist threat." For specifics on how PETA
supports violence, click on "Black Eye."

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm?oid=21
Karen M. - 22 Mar 2004 19:01 GMT
> > >For the bazillionth time--Hill's doesn't do animal testing.  But of
>  course,
[quoted text clipped - 220 lines]
>
> http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm?oid=21

Hill's is still owned by Colgate-Palmolive, which does do animal
testing and receives profits from Hill's, so regardless of what Hill's
does, by buying it you're still supporting CP, I think that's the main
point here.
-L. : - 25 Mar 2004 06:31 GMT
> testing and receives profits from Hill's, so regardless of what Hill's
> does, by buying it you're still supporting CP, I think that's the main
> point here.

Interesting how Crane - Hill's resident "press slut" changes the
subject and tries to pass off the post as his own  - and then posts
the link, from whence it came, at the bottom.  Dribble, dribble,
dribble...just like slime....

-L.
GAUBSTER2 - 25 Mar 2004 16:06 GMT
>From: usenetlyn@yahoo.com  (-L. :)

>Interesting how Crane - Hill's resident "press slut" changes the
>subject and tries to pass off the post as his own  - and then posts
>the link, from whence it came, at the bottom.  Dribble, dribble,
>dribble...just like slime....

You're the slime, "L".  What is your major malfunction, anyway?  How many times
does Steve have to tell you and others, that his posts here are his own
personal opinions?  He's stated time and time again that Hill's doesn't "put
him here".  You just don't like anything he posts since he uses facts and logic
to support his arguments and opinions.  And yet, here you are (again) calling
him names.  Grow up.
Steve Crane - 27 Mar 2004 02:55 GMT
> Interesting how Crane - Hill's resident "press slut" changes the
> subject and tries to pass off the post as his own  - and then posts
> the link, from whence it came, at the bottom.  Dribble, dribble,
> dribble...just like slime....
>
> -L.

Clearly you have forgotten what this original post was about - IAMS dogs in
testing. Then one person with a pathological hatred of Hill's tried to claim
Hill's did the same type of testing. This was a not a post about Proctor and
Gamble or Colgate or Santa Claus for that matter, it was specific to the use
of dogs by a pet food company for experimental purposes. One individual in
her pathological hatred tried to infer Hill's did the same thing as IAMS -
which is patently untrue and of course she knows it. It was a typical cheap
shot without foundation as usual.
Steve G - 22 Mar 2004 21:36 GMT
(...)

> Your "facts" above are a joke. First of all they come from PETA who is
> unquestionably a disgusting organization. Considering they would ban your
> ability to even own a pet,

Looking on their website, this does not seem to be true (any more).

http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp

However, note that in the above FAQ, they do not actually answer the
question 'Does PETA believe that people shouldn't have pets?'...!
Hedging, perhaps?

> I cannot fathom your support of them. Considering
> thier cash support for convicted terrorists,

Well, I suppose they would argue that ALF activists and their ilk are
all serving a Higher Purpose and Greater Good. Shades of Israel vs.
Palestine...

(...)
> considering the fact
> that they spend less that 1/10th of 1% on animals and the rest goes to
> salaries and the list goes on and on.

Haven't seen any proof of that?

> Hill's does do testing on
> animals to satisfy AAFCO feeding requirments. Hill's does do _NON_ invasive
> testing to learn new advances in nutrition.

Only non-invasive testing? So, even the development of innovative
diets is entirely via non-invasive means?

Or is any desired invasive testing simply farmed out off site?

Or is the info simply gained from university research which is
unfunded and unaffiliated with Hills?

If the latter, I wonder if the animal rights supporters would allow
the feeding of such food?

> Hill's continues to do testing
> on nutritional products which have saved literally hundreds of thousands of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> provided the very basis for understanding cat and dog nutrition over the
> past fifty years.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too, Steve. I doubt that
the knowledge you refer to above was obtained without the deaths of
many animals.

But, I think you get to the crux of the matter above - one either
believes that the death of some animals is acceptable in order to
(hopefully) save many more, or one does not. There are more emotive
situations than the pet food industry, too; there is much research out
there looking at pain (and its prevention), and this research involves
- surprise - making animals hurt! But fewer animals (and humans) with
hurt in future, because of such work.

In any case, I trust that those who object to animal testing will stop
treating their animals with ... hmm ... almost anything. Frontline and
Revolution would be right out to begin with. And any pain meds.

Incidentally, Wellness seems to be a favoured food in these parts. It
is not on the PETA list of acceptable foods / companies.

(...)
>  People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has been described as
> "by far the most successful radical organization in America." The key word
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> leather, and no medical research using animals. PETA is even opposed to the
> use of seeing-eye dogs.

This isn't entirely what is expressed on their website. They advocate
keeping cats indoors. They advocate killing ferals. They allow for
non-invasive animal studies.

Of course, the website is probably just the acceptable side of things
- the advert, if you will.

(...)

> PETA is not an animal welfare organization.

Well, they say this themselves - they are an 'animal welfare'
organisation.

(...)
> turkeys. The group has even contemplated (literally) dancing on the grave of
> Kentucky Fried Chicken's Colonel Sanders. And in 2003, PETA president Ingrid
> Newkirk wrote to Yasser Arafat, pleading with him to make certain no animals
> are harmed in Palestinian suicide-bombing attacks.

I guess suicide sheep-bombings are right out, then.

(...)
> with the epidemic's spread. Upon hearing that Charlton Heston had fallen ill
> with Alzheimer's Disease,

How would you know?

Steve.
Steve Crane - 23 Mar 2004 03:36 GMT
> Looking on their website, this does not seem to be true (any more).
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> question 'Does PETA believe that people shouldn't have pets?'...!
> Hedging, perhaps?

According to statements made by Newkirk the leader that is the ultimate
goal.

> (...)
> > considering the fact
> > that they spend less that 1/10th of 1% on animals and the rest goes to
> > salaries and the list goes on and on.
>
> Haven't seen any proof of that?

http://www.charitynavigator.org/

> > Hill's does do testing on
> > animals to satisfy AAFCO feeding requirments. Hill's does do _NON_ invasive
> > testing to learn new advances in nutrition.
>
> Only non-invasive testing? So, even the development of innovative
> diets is entirely via non-invasive means?

Entirely, unless you consider bi-annual teeth cleaning invasive.

> Or is any desired invasive testing simply farmed out off site?

Nope, Hill's will not fund such a study.

> Or is the info simply gained from university research which is
> unfunded and unaffiliated with Hills?

To some degree that is always the case. We may utilize published studies
from all over the world to determine the best solutions to problems. There
isn't a drug or surgical procedure or any medical product that cannot be
traced back to some animal study somewhere.

> If the latter, I wonder if the animal rights supporters would allow
> the feeding of such food?

If not then they are going to be out of luck. There is no food that wasn't
developed based on some nutrition work done somewhere. If you take NRC
values for pet food, those were all developed as a result of research done
someplace by someone. So even if a new "World's Best" pet food company comes
along and formulates the food based on current knowledge that company is
using the results of such clinical studies.

> > Hill's continues to do testing
> > on nutritional products which have saved literally hundreds of thousands of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the knowledge you refer to above was obtained without the deaths of
> many animals.

Certainly there was a time in the 50's and even the 60's when such research
was funded at various universities around the world. That has not been the
case for over 20 years. There is a strong reason for such activity, besides
the animal rights whackos. The last major study Hill's funded is a good
example. Polzin et all did a long term study in renal failure dogs. In the
past such studies had been done on dogs surgically altered to mimic renal
failure. The problem with the old study methods was that you were creating a
mimick of a condition and not the condition itself. Thus you could not
definitively state that the results would be totally applicable to the same
disease that was naturally ocurring. For this reason Polzin's work was on
naturally ocurring dogs and cats. The studies completed are undeniable and
undebateable. They are Grade 1 Evidence Based Studies.

> But, I think you get to the crux of the matter above - one either
> believes that the death of some animals is acceptable in order to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> - surprise - making animals hurt! But fewer animals (and humans) with
> hurt in future, because of such work.

I fall into this category. If I thought we could find a way to cure cancer
in humans and it meant the death of a thousand animals I would be in favor
of it. If I thought we could find a cure for male pattern baldness (a
personal thing you know) and it cost the life of a single animal I would not
be in favor of it.
Steve G - 24 Mar 2004 01:50 GMT
> > Looking on their website, this does not seem to be true (any more).
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> According to statements made by Newkirk the leader that is the ultimate
> goal.

I don't know if Newkirk dictates the policy; regardless, this is not
the view espoused on their website.

> > (...)
> > > considering the fact
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.charitynavigator.org/

That site doesn't appear to support your assertion. It suggests that
3.9% of PETA's cash goes to admin and staff expenses and that 83.7%
goes to their designated cause ('the services it exists to deliver').
The CEO pay is noted as $74k.

(...)

> > Only non-invasive testing? So, even the development of innovative
> > diets is entirely via non-invasive means?
>
> Entirely, unless you consider bi-annual teeth cleaning invasive.

Not sure how all of the non-dental diets were formulated, then.

(...)

> > Or is the info simply gained from university research which is
> > unfunded and unaffiliated with Hills?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> isn't a drug or surgical procedure or any medical product that cannot be
> traced back to some animal study somewhere.

Well, that's the crux really - relevant info is being gained from
animal experiments that *someone* is doing! Following on, if people
want to feed something that hasn't been derived via animal
experiments, then it's not enough to simply buy from a company that
doesn't do animal experiements.

> > If the latter, I wonder if the animal rights supporters would allow
> > the feeding of such food?
>
> If not then they are going to be out of luck. There is no food that wasn't
> developed based on some nutrition work done somewhere.

I suppose it's possible that some of this work was carried out
non-invasively. I guess that all innovative diets will have a dead
animal or two somewhere in their lineage though.

(...)

> > You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too, Steve. I doubt that
> > the knowledge you refer to above was obtained without the deaths of
> > many animals.
>
> Certainly there was a time in the 50's and even the 60's when such research
> was funded at various universities around the world. That has not been the
(...)
> disease that was naturally ocurring. For this reason Polzin's work was on
> naturally ocurring dogs and cats. The studies completed are undeniable and
> undebateable. They are Grade 1 Evidence Based Studies.

Well, the point isn't just that the problems were 'naturally occuring'
- the point is whether the animals had invasive procedures carried out
on them.

(...)

> I fall into this category. If I thought we could find a way to cure cancer
> in humans and it meant the death of a thousand animals I would be in favor
> of it. If I thought we could find a cure for male pattern baldness (a
> personal thing you know) and it cost the life of a single animal I would not
> be in favor of it.

I would place myself in the same category.

Steve.
GAUBSTER2 - 24 Mar 2004 16:00 GMT
>From: news@stevethepsycho.co.uk  

>> > http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I don't know if Newkirk dictates the policy; regardless, this is not
>the view espoused on their website.

Do you really think that their website is their "bible"?  It's not likely they
would reveal their true intentions on their website for all of the world (and
their opponents) to see.
Liz - 27 Mar 2004 02:39 GMT
"Steve Crane" <eodemolay@coxnospam.net> wrote in message news:

> If I thought we could find a way to cure cancer in humans and it meant
> the death of a thousand animals I would be in favor of it. If I thought
> we could find a cure for male pattern baldness (a personal thing you know)
> and it cost the life of a single animal I would not be in favor of it.

There wouldn´t need to be a cure for cancer if people only ate right.
People spend their lives eating junk food and then animals have to die
because of it. It´s just not fair.
Steve Crane - 27 Mar 2004 02:57 GMT
> "Steve Crane" <eodemolay@coxnospam.net> wrote in message news:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> People spend their lives eating junk food and then animals have to die
> because of it. It?s just not fair.

Liz,
   That's just silly nonsense. People have been dying of cancer for
thousands upon thousands of years. There weren't buying twinkies in Pharaohs
time.
Liz - 27 Mar 2004 13:21 GMT
"Steve Crane" <eodemolay@coxnospam.net> wrote in message news:
> "Liz" <c864320@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> > There wouldn´t need to be a cure for cancer if people only ate right.
> > People spend their lives eating junk food and then animals have to die
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> thousands upon thousands of years. There weren't buying twinkies in Pharaohs
> time.

They weren´t eating right either. Not enough food is also bad, you
know? Besides, as far as I know, they were already getting much of
their calories from grains, or carbs if you will. Now show me a native
indian eating his native diet in the midst of plenty of food with
cancer.
Steve Crane - 28 Mar 2004 15:46 GMT
> They weren?t eating right either. Not enough food is also bad, you
> know? Besides, as far as I know, they were already getting much of
> their calories from grains, or carbs if you will. Now show me a native
> indian eating his native diet in the midst of plenty of food with
> cancer.

You are kidding right? It's hard to imagine even you would continue on in
this regard. I'll give you a hint and let you proceed  - Inuit.
Liz - 29 Mar 2004 02:52 GMT
> > They weren´t eating right either. Not enough food is also bad, you
> > know? Besides, as far as I know, they were already getting much of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You are kidding right? It's hard to imagine even you would continue on in
> this regard. I'll give you a hint and let you proceed  - Inuit.

Yeah, I was thinking about them. Know any with cancer or any that have
died of a heart attack despite all the meat and fat they used to eat?
Used to eat alright because today their diet is as bad as it gets.
They are drinking like sponges and eating sweets like bees. Why don´t
you look at the cancer incidence of the Italian population and of the
North American population? Cancer rate of North Americans is four
times greater than that of Italians. It is estimated that one in every
two North Americans will have cancer at some point in their lives.
From what I have seen in Italy, Italians use very little condiments,
eat a lot of meats, fruits, olive oil, and wheat. And they have that
raw red meat dish I mentioned once: carpaccio. Any Italian here that
can tell me more about your diet? They also live longer than any other
nationality.
Liz - 29 Mar 2004 02:54 GMT
.......And a lot of tomato sauce too!
GAUBSTER2 - 29 Mar 2004 15:44 GMT
>From: c864320@yahoo.com  (Liz)

As usual, you're changing the subject!  You go from Indians to Italians?
Judy - 21 Mar 2004 06:20 GMT
> Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
> http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
> This is what happens to dogs (and one kitten) in the name of "research".

Iams is not the only one to blame.

     Allergan, Inc.
     2525 Dupont Dr., P.O. Box 19534, Irvine, CA 92612 ?714-752-4500,
800-347-4500, corpinfo@allergan.com

     Arm & Hammer (Church & Dwight)
     469 N. Harrison St., Princeton, NJ 08543, 609-683-5900, 800-524-1328

     Bausch & Lomb (Cur?l, Soft Sense, Clear Choice)
     1 Bausch & Lomb Place, Rochester, NY 14604-2701, 716-338-6000,
800-344-8815

     Benckiser (Coty, Lancaster, Jovan)
     237 Park Ave., 19th Fl., New York, NY 10017-3142, 212-850-2300,
attmail@cotyusa.com

     Block Drug Co., Inc. (Polident, Sensodyne, Tegrin, Lava, Carpet Fresh)
     257 Cornelison Ave., Jersey City, NJ 07302, 201-434-3000, 800-365-6500

     Boyle-Midway (Reckitt & Colman)
     2 Wickman Rd., Toronto, Ontario M8Z 5M5 Canada, 416-255-2300

     Bristol-Myers Squibb Co. (Clairol, Ban Roll-On, Keri, Final Net)
     345 Park Ave., New York, NY 10154-0037, 212-546-4000

     Calvin Klein Cosmetics, (A division of Unilever), Trump Tower, 725
Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10022-2519, (973) 347-8889

     Carter-Wallace (Arrid, Lady's Choice, Nair, Pearl Drops)
     1345 Ave. of the Americas, New York, NY 10105-0021, 212-339-5000

     Chesebrough-Ponds (Faberg?, Cutex, Vaseline)
     800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632, 201-512-0094

     Church & Dwight (Arm & Hammer)
     469 N. Harrison St., Princeton, NJ 08543-5297, 609-683-5900,
800-524-1328

     Clairol, Inc. (Bristol-Myers Squibb)
     345 Park Ave., New York, NY 10154, 212-546-5000, 800-223-5800

     Clorox (Pine-Sol, S.O.S., Tilex, ArmorAll)
     1221 Broadway, Oakland, CA 94612, 510-271-7000, 800-227-1860

     + Colgate-Palmolive, 300 Park Avenue, New York, NY 10022-7499, (800)
338-8333 (+ currently observing a moratorium on animal testing).

     Coty (Benckiser)
     237 Park Ave., 19th Fl., New York, NY 10017-3142, 212-850-2300,
info@coty.com

     Cover Girl (Procter & Gamble)
     One Procter & Gamble Plaza, Cincinnati, OH 45202, 513-983-1100,
800-543-1745

     Dana Perfumes (Alyssa Ashley)
     635 Madison Ave., 5th Fl., New York, NY 10022-1009 ?212-751-3700,
800-822-8547

     Del Laboratories (Flame Glow, Commerce Drug, Sally Hansen)
     565 Broad Hollow Rd., Farmingdale, NY 11735, 516-293-7070,
800-645-9888

     Dial Corporation (Purex, Renuzit), 1850 N. Central Ave., Phoenix, AZ
85004, 602-207-1800, 800-528-0849

     DowBrands (Glass Plus, Fantastik, Vivid)
     P.O. Box 68511, Indianapolis, IN 46268, 317-873-7000

     Drackett Products Co. (S.C. Johnson & Son)
     1525 Howe St., Racine, WI 53403, 414-631-2000, 800-558-5252

     Ecolab, Inc.
     370 N. Wabasha St., St. Paul, MN 55102-1390, 612-293-2233,
800-352-5326

     Elizabeth Arden, Inc. (A division of Unilever), 1345 Ave. of the
Americas, New York, NY 10105, (212) 261-1000

     Erno Laszlo
     200 First Stamford Place, Stamford, CT 06902-6759, 203-363-5461

     Givaudan-Roure
     1775 Windsor Rd., Teaneck, NJ 07666, 201-833-2300

     Helene Curtis Industries (Finesse, Unilever, Suave)
     325 N. Wells St., Chicago, IL 60610-4713, 312-661-0222

     Jhirmack (Playtex)
     300 Nyala Farms Rd., Westport, CT 06880, 203-341-4000

     Johnson & Johnson
     1 Johnson & Johnson Plaza, New Brunswick, NJ 08933, 908-524-0400

     Kimberly-Clark Corp. (Kleenex, Scott Paper, Huggies)
     P.O. Box 619100, Dallas, TX 75261-9100, 800-544-1847

     Lamaur
     5601 E. River Rd., Fridley, MN 55432, 612-571-1234

     L & F Products
     One Philips Pkwy., Montvale, NJ 07645-1810, 201-573-5700

     Lever Bros. (Unilever)
     390 Park Ave., New York, NY 10022, 212-888-1260, 800-745-9696

     Max Factor (Procter & Gamble)
     One Procter & Gamble Plaza, Cincinnati, OH 45202, 513-983-1100,
800-543-1745

     Mead
     Courthouse Plaza N.E., Dayton, OH 45463, 513-222-6323

     Melaleuca, Inc.
     3910 S. Yellowstone Hwy., Idaho Falls, ID 83402-6003 , 208-522-0700

     Mennen Co. (Colgate-Palmolive)
     E. Hanover Ave., Morristown, NJ 07962, 201-631-9000

     Murphy-Phoenix Co. (Colgate-Palmolive)
     P.O. Box 39670, Solon, OH 44139, 800-486-7627

     Neoteric Cosmetics
     4880 Havana St., Denver, CO 80239-0019, 303-373-4860

     Neutron Industries, Inc.
     7107 N. Black Canyon Hwy., Phoenix, AZ 85021, 602-864-0090

     Noxell (Procter & Gamble)
     11050 York Rd., Hunt Valley, MD 21030-2098, 410-785-7300, 800-572-3232

     Olay Co./Oil of Olay (Procter & Gamble)
     P.O. Box 599, Cincinnati, OH 45201, 800-543-1745

     Pantene (Procter & Gamble)
     Procter & Gamble Plaza, Cincinnati, OH 45202, 800-945-7768

     Parfums International (White Shoulders)
     1345 Ave. of the Americas, New York, NY 10105, 212-261-1000

     Perrigo
     117 Water St., Allegan, MI 49010 ?616-673-8451, 800-253-3606

     Pfizer, Inc. (Bain de Soleil, Plax, Visine, Desitin, BenGay)
     235 E. 42nd St., New York, NY 10017-5755, 212-573-2323

     Playtex Products, Inc. (Banana Boat, Woolite, Jhirmack)
     300 Nyala Farms Rd., Westport, CT 06880, 203-341-4000

     Procter & Gamble Co. (Crest, Tide, Cover Girl, Max Factor, Giorgio)
     One Procter & Gamble Plaza, Cincinnati, OH 45202, 513-983-1100,
800-543-1745

     Reckitt & Colman (Lysol, Mop & Glo)
     1655 Valley Rd., Wayne, NJ 07474-0945, 201-633-6700, 800-232-9665

     Richardson-Vicks (Procter & Gamble)
     One Procter & Gamble Plaza, Cincinnati, OH 45202, 513-983-1100,
800-543-1745

     Sally Hansen (Del Laboratories)
     565 Broad Hollow Rd., Farmingdale, NY 11735, 516-293-7070,
800-645-9888

     Sanofi (Yves Saint Laurent)
     90 Park Ave., 24th Fl., New York, NY 10016, 212-907-2000

     Schering-Plough (Coppertone)
     1 Giralda Farms, Madison, NJ 07940-1000, 201-822-7000, 800-842-4090

     Schick (Warner-Lambert)
     201 Tabor Rd., Morris Plains, NJ 07950, 201-540-2000, 800-492-1555

     S. C. Johnson Wax (Pledge, Drano, Windex, Glade)
     1525 Howe St., Racine, WI 53403, 414-260-2000, 800-558-5252

     SmithKline Beecham
     100 Beecham Dr., Pittsburgh, PA 15205, 412-928-1000, 800-456-6670

     SoftSoap Enterprises (Colgate-Palmolive)
     1107 Hazeltine Blvd., Suite 370, Chaska, MN 55318, 612-448-1118

     Sun Star
     600 Eagle Dr., Bensenville, IL 60106-1977, 800-821-5455

     3M (Scotch, Post-It)
     Center Bldg., 220-2E-02, St. Paul, MN 55144-1000, 612-733-1110,
800-364-3577

     Unilever (Lever Bros., Calvin Klein, Elizabeth Arden, Helene Curtis,
Diversey)
     390 Park Ave., New York, NY 10022, 212-888-1260, 800-745-9696

     Vidal Sassoon (Procter & Gamble)
     P.O. Box 599, Cincinnati, OH 45201, 800-543-7270

     Warner-Lambert (Lubriderm, Listerine, Schick)
     201 Tabor Rd., Morris Plains, NJ 07950-2693, 201-540-2000,
800-323-5379

     Westwood Pharmaceutical
     100 Forest Ave., Buffalo, NY 14213, 716-887-3400, 800-333-0950

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Joe Canuck - 26 Mar 2004 16:46 GMT
> Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
> http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
> This is what happens to dogs (and one kitten) in the name of "research".
>
> The rest of you, don't. It's not pretty.
> In fact, it's very, very sad.

I'd balance that against this report from a credible source:

http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iamsinvestigation

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

kaeli - 26 Mar 2004 18:16 GMT
> > Those of you who still think IAMS is okey-dokey, check it out.
> > http://www.iamscruelty.com/iams-video.html
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iamsinvestigation

This is one independent contract company (who actually seem to have
great policies, though). What about all the others? What about the ones
they own themselves?

http://www.impactpress.com/articles/decjan04/moore120104.html
http://www.uncaged.co.uk/iamsexpress.htm

And, to be fair, IAMS seems to like to blame the independent companies,
not themselves, for the cruelty that happened in the past (they do not
dispute that it did, in fact, happen), so, hey, maybe that's true. I
doubt I'll ever know for sure. They seem to think they're getting
better.

http://www.coreymondello.com/IAMS.html
http://www.hsus.org/ace/20342

But having been close friends with one of the people who does
investigations for the government to make sure that companies are
obeying the Animal Welfare Act, I can tell you that just because a
policy is written doesn't mean it is engaged. I can also tell you that
when people know an inspector is coming, they clean up. All companies do
this, no matter what they do. Heck, I clean up when Mom comes over. If I
owned a big company, I'd sure "clean up" if I knew an investigator was
coming.

I don't really know for sure one way or the other. I can only believe
what I see and what I'm told. I don't work there. Video sure goes a long
way for me, though.

Signature

--
~kaeli~
He often broke into song because he couldn't find the key.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace


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