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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2004Should I be mad at my sister?
My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying of pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take her to doctor appointments and all of that. This woman has two cats, both 11 years old and wnated my sister to have them put to sleep and cremated so they can be buried with her. I think that's a very selfish thing to do, and cruel to ask someone else to do, and I suggested that she just not and say she did. I know you should follow the wishes of the dying, but what did the cats ever do? My sister said that one of them is very needy and wouldn't do well in another home and besides, no would want such old cats. Anyway, she dropped them at the vet today. She was heartsick to do it and was crying as soon as she pulled into the parking lot, but I just feel it was wrong on some level. What do you think?  SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:42:19 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: >My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying of >pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take her to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >crying as soon as she pulled into the parking lot, but I just feel it >was wrong on some level. What do you think? What good would it do -- she feels badly about it. m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >>My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying >>of pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > What good would it do -- she feels badly about it. I meant the whole situation, really. Would you have that "no one else should have my cats" or the "my cats can't live without me" attitude if you were dying to the extent you would have perfectly healthy animals put to sleep? SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > you were dying to the extent you would have perfectly healthy animals > put to sleep? No, absolutely not, and I think you have raised an important question that all of us should consider. I have read about others who think their cats should be euthanized when they die "because no one could care for them as I do." I consider that to be an incredibly selfish attitude. I do think that all of us should think about the possibility of our own deaths and make provisions for our pets (because that can happen at any time, and sometimes in a very unexpected way -- such as an auto accident). In my case, I have made arrangements with a friend who has agreed to care for my furry twosome if anything were to happen to me, and I have also given this information to my family. She knows my philosophy of cat care and completely agrees with me that they would always be indoor-only cats and would not be declawed. If something were to happen so my friend could not do this, my sister has agreed to find homes for my two cats. I also intend to add a codicil to my will (something that I have been thinking about for some time) that will stipulate these arrangements and also leave a sum of money for the care of Holly and Duffy (or any other pets I may have at the time of my death). MaryL > > m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in > > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > MaryL You certainly raise a good point about providing for pets in your will. Until I read the OP, I had never heard of someone wanting to have their pets put to sleep if the owner died. I think that's disgusting. If someone asked me to do what the OP's sister was asked to do, I think I would try to talk them out of it and if they insisted, frankly, I would think of a way to deceive them so that the pets would not get put to sleep. In that situation, I just would give no weight to the fact that the person was dying. No doubt the request creates a stressful situation and I think it's extremely selfish or at best misguided. BTW-I adopted an 11 year old cat (Kona a/k/a "Konaman") from a shelter 6 months ago. It *is* harder for them to get an older cat adopted, but it happens. Even if the cats had wound up in a shelter, they would have a chance at being adopted. > > > m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in > > > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > but it happens. Even if the cats had wound up in a shelter, they would > have a chance at being adopted. I agree with everything CajunPrincess has written, and I should have added that type of information to my original message. I usually disagree with people who say that it is alright to deceive others, but in this type of instance I think it is the only *moral* and *honorable* thing to do. If I couldn't talk someone into looking for an alternative to euthanasia in a case like this, I definitely would find a way to get those cats out of the "owner's" care. The law may look at pets as property, but I do not. When I adopted my cats, I took on a lifelong responsibility -- the length of their life but also mine (and beyond, by making arrangements for continued care if I do not live as long as they do). Animals are not disposable objects! Thanks for caring. MaryL >> m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in >> rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >MaryL The codicil is a good idea. When adopting TuTu I made a promise to the cat protection group that if I were unable to care for TuTu I would return her to the lady in charge. However that group no longer exists. I also spoke to my Vet and she said she would take her and find her a home. My family also promised to find her a home. My son and grandchildren are allergic to cats so they would not be able to keep her. They also have very big dogs that I would not trust with cats. So now I have to trust the honor of the promises! MLB On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:28:15 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: >m. L. Briggs <mlbriggs@nospam.net> wrote in >rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >you were dying to the extent you would have perfectly healthy animals >put to sleep? NO! The woman should have (or had someone help her) made an attempt to find them another home. It was disgraceful to ask your sister to take them to be killed. Your sister caved and now feels the sorrow of the mistake. > On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:42:19 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" > <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What good would it do -- she feels badly about it. It is totally wrong. What we have here is a totally sociopathic person. One who never sees ANYTHING to their left, nor to their right, nor above nor below, but ONLY what is directly in front of them. She sees her cats as mere objects, there to suite her pleasures. And since she's leaving, there's NO REASON that ANYBODY ELSE should have a good time...! I had an aunt once who put her cats to sleep just because she was moving to someplace else where catz weren't welcome, or just because "he was getting old". This cancer person though, reminds me of the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs who took everything they thought they would need into the world of the dead with them ... including their live slaves! Those cats should be set free. Right away, before her majesties, the pharaoh, sets sail down the River Styx. Be aware.. The mentally ill are everywhere. IBen G. IBen Getiner <lappcatt@aol.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > It is totally wrong. What we have here is a totally sociopathic > person. One who never sees ANYTHING to their left, nor to their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > pharaoh, sets sail down the River Styx. > Be aware.. The mentally ill are everywhere. That's alomost what this woman is like, from what my sister tells me. One thing about my sister is that she will complain about things but continue to put herself into situations where she has to keep dealing with them. This woman used to live across the street from her and my sister was so glad when she moved. But for some reason kept in touch. Apparently, her grown children aren't even in contact with her. When she was clear thinking she still had the plan for the cats. She had a Himalayan cremated and she wants those ashes put with her, and she wanted her two living cats with her, too. The woman has been dictating how her home is to be packed and who is to get what. She's giving my sister her dining room set and said, "Won't it be great to have something nice instead of what you have." My sister was offended, but I told her from what I gather about this bitty, she's not saying that your stuff is so much crap, but just being snooty about her own." Frankly all be glad when it's over and the topic of conversation with my sister ceases to be about "Cathy." Got to hand her one thing, though, she rose to help someone she has zero obligation to help where no one else would because she's alienated everyone from her life. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:42:19 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" > <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >was wrong on some level. What do you think? > Don't be mad at your sister, please, but I would have found homes for the cats or taken them myself. When I married my husband I married his 15 year old, cat, Porgy. porgy lived many more years with us and became my cat. I really think he was happier with us than in his previous home (with my mother in law). You can teach an old animal new tricks. In fact, I think cats are much more adaptable than we give them credit for. When a good friend of ours died, he asked us to take care of his brain damaged cat. That cat, too, live MANY more very happy years with my daughter. I am the beneficiary of my daughter's will and I have promised to take her 5 dogs and 9 cats and will do so to the best of my ability. She will also take care of my 6 cats should something happen to us. It is horrible beyond words to euthanize healthy animals because you "think" that they can't get along without you. In my experience, the cats we've dealt with have actually improved their lives. > What good would it do -- she feels badly about it. >I am the beneficiary of my daughter's will and I have promised to take >her 5 dogs and 9 cats and will do so to the best of my ability. She >will also take care of my 6 cats should something happen to us. Exactly, at this point, I would take my mom's dogs, and she would take my cats and dog, I wold prefer that my sister not get my animals because she is impatient and does not give her own enough attention. But I would be happy with my parents, my nephew, or one of my good friends. Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com Wow...this story made me experience an absolutely gut wrenching wave of revulsion. I'm not sure how I would react to my sis if she did something like that. Were it I in her situation, I would have fostered two kitties until such time as I could find a home or take them to a no-kill shelter where they might have a chance... SignaturePeace, Pen -- Pawbreakers - The Candy for Cats! http://www.pawbreakers.com > My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying of > pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take her to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > crying as soon as she pulled into the parking lot, but I just feel it > was wrong on some level. What do you think? Pen wrote: >Wow...this story made me experience an >absolutely gut wrenching wave of >revulsion. Me too. As despicable and abhorrent as the actions of the "neighbor" are, I am even more disgusted that Brandy's sister would actually choose to be a part of this and send the cats to their deaths. My mother has exactly the same "no one can take care of them like I do" attitude. I'll never forget the night she told me how she planned to have her pets (4 cats and a dog) killed if something should happen to her and the ensuing sick revulsion I felt. While there were other issues that factored in, this was the final straw. At that moment I could no longer deny that she was an extremely selfish, coldhearted bitch that was almost sociopathic in nature. I ended my relationship with my mother right then and there and haven't spoken to her in years. Please. people, make a will and provide for your animals so they can happily live on after you are gone. You owe them that. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >> I ended my relationship with my mother > right then and there and haven't spoken to her in years. For some reason THIS fills me with revulsion. Perhaps someone else can explain it. >>> I ended my relationship with my mother >> right then and there and haven't spoken to her in years. > >For some reason THIS fills me with revulsion. Perhaps someone else can >explain it. Probably a sad story that has not been told. >For some reason THIS fills me with >revulsion. Perhaps someone else can >explain it. You have some silly vendetta that you can't let go of (to the point of you making yourself look like an idiot time and time again.) The fact that you will side with someone that will kill healthy pets for incredibly selfish reasons in order to bear out this vendetta explains a lot... about your lack of ethics and character. I notice you didn't bother to comment on the tragedy of the situation the OP posted about, but instead immediatey focused on me. I guess the unnecessary death of TWO cats is not a big deal to you. Megan (who's starting to think Mary's a masochist...) Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >> I ended my relationship with my mother > > right then and there and haven't spoken to her in years. > > For some reason THIS fills me with revulsion. Perhaps someone else can > explain it. Um, you have a human being for a mother and imagine everyone else does too? From the way it was phrased, I think it was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the sole precipitating event. My mom has not only talked to us kids about taking care of her pets when she's gone, she adopted a little dog she thought was ugly whose elderly owner had to go to full time care facility because of altzheimer's. Mom didn't even know the elderly person, the dog's groomer told her about it. The poor little dog was old too; Pepper died after only a year and a half with mom. By the time she died, my mother thought she was the prettiest dog in the world, and mourned her greatly. Mez Messalina <second@duelingoak.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Um, you have a human being for a mother and imagine everyone else > does too? > > From the way it was phrased, I think it was the straw that broke > the camel's back, not the sole precipitating event. I wish my mom would just do one more thing so I could disown her. She's walking the line and, yes, most people have humans for their mother. Some of us have... our mothers. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > > >> I ended my relationship with my mother > > > right then and there and haven't spoken to her in years. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Um, you have a human being for a mother and imagine everyone else does > too? Um, yes--with one small change. I had a mother. Tough call. My mother asked that her cat Sissy (my Gnarly's daughter) be put to sleep if anything happened to her. Her reason was that she could not bear the thought of anyone mistreating her, and BIG SURPRISE, Gnarly's daughter was an ill-tempered, biting, scratching little b*tch, even though she was raised from kittenhood by sweet and loving Mama. [When my mother was in her last illness Sissy stayed under her covers and hated me so much, at the sound of my voice that lump in the covers hissed. Every time I entered the room.] Anyway, thank goodness my niece was left with the responsibility and not me. I don't think I could have done it. What Kimmy did was keep her for six months, hoping she would adjust. My niece and her husband were very smart and patient, very gentle, and there were no other animals in the house. Sissy remained unmoved, came out to eat and drink only at night when nobody was about, and was for the most part just something that hissed whenever anyone walked near the bureau she was under. (They had her in a guest room nobody used.) So, they did have her euthanized--and did not consult with any of us first. Sissy was twelve years old. What do I think? I think it sucks. I think the one who put your sister in this position sucks. When I was diagnosed with cancer in 1997 and thought I was going to die the first thing I thought about was my cats. I made an arrangement for them and included it in my will. I also have a second plan should that fall through. Of course no one can care for my cats as I do but I can't imagine wanting them killed. Their lives are as precious to them as ours are to us. I am fine now but always there is that nagging thought that I must survive in order to care for these cats! Barb > What do I think? I think it sucks. I think the one who put your sister in > this position sucks. When I was diagnosed with cancer in 1997 and thought I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am fine now but always there is that nagging thought that I must survive > in order to care for these cats! Good for you. The main cause of all problems that occur due to deaths (in this context) is that so many people cannot face the fact that they will die one day. If they could, they might imagine all possible outcomes and try to make provisions for them as best they can. Barb <bguzzino@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > What do I think? I think it sucks. I think the one who put your > sister in this position sucks. When I was diagnosed with cancer [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Barb I can't help but think if you love your cats enough to want them cremated and placed in your casket with you, you must love them enough to allow them to live and see if they can get/adjust to a new home before taking any drastic measures. And this is the sister who wants a cat so darn badly, who had the black kittens in her backyard to wait until after Halloween before sending them to a shelter (unfortunately they escaped. Older kittnes). The woman actually hasn't seen her cats for a few weeks because she took a turn for the worse and was in the hospital. The neighbor was feeding them at the house. What bugs me is that it's at a senior community and I don't think it would have been that difficult to get some of the old folks to take a nice calm old cat or two. But this woman wanted her cats with her and I just don't get it and it surprises me that my sister would agree to do it. Yeah she was upset and she even said moreso because she had to chase them down in the house and pry one out of a hiding place to get her in the carrier. She's told me how shy they are, but I think they knew what was going on. First they don't see "mom for a few weeks and now that lady who came over once in a while was trying to catch them. I don't want to make my sister feel any more badly about it than she does, but I am angry that she didn't at least TRY to take more of a stand about it. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? This is really a sad situation. I know I would never want to be without my animals, but I would never consider putting them to sleep to keep them with me. As much as I missed my animals that have passed away, I never wanted to die to join them, so I doubt my cats would want to die to join me. If we get to see our loved ones after death, then I will already have a wonderful group waiting for me. We can welcome the others later. If we don't get to see them after death, then putting them to sleep won't make any difference. Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com Meghan wrote: >If we get to see our loved ones after >death, then I will already have a wonderful >group waiting for me. And this brings up another question. Does anyone honestly think that, if indeed we get to see our loved ones in the afterlife, that the healthy cats someone had killed for selfish reasons would be there waiting for them? I don't, and that kind of person doesn't deserve to see them again. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Meghan wrote: > >If we get to see our loved ones after [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Megan Excellent point! If we think of someone in the hereafter, I doubt very much that a person in that state would be looking down on us in disappointment because we failed to carry out that person's wish while in the "worldly" state. (Of course, all this is said in the full recognition that none of us can *really* know what will happen.) MaryL > This is really a sad situation. > > I know I would never want to be without my animals, but I would never > consider putting them to sleep to keep them with me. Meghan, I don't think that is the point here. If it was, I would be all for telling the woman she has her head up her *&%. I think she was just imagining someone mistreating her cats. Thinking that nobody would love them the way she does. Imagining them let outside to get hit by a car or allowed to go hungry in some dirty place. Although I could never ever ask that my cats be euthanized under such circumstances, I do understand why some people might. I prefer to trust in those I have asked to care for them if I die. But of course, there are no guarantees what would happen to my babies in the hands of others. > I think she was >just imagining someone mistreating her cats. >Thinking that nobody would love them the way she does. I think these are two very different statements. For example, nobody else will love my Kira like I do, and they probably wouldn't give her the same attention as I do. But would they actually abuse her? Neglect her? Harm her? No. She may not be as happy as with me, but she would still have a good life. It is *my* job to make sure she goes to a good home. Killing her is *not* an option. If she were to be neglected in her new home, it would be because *I* failed to choose properly. Personally, I feel guilty every time I go out of town overnight, but I trust her care to my family. If I believed for a second that she would be in danger, I would choose somebody else or cancel my trip. Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com Meghan Noecker <friesian@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Personally, I feel guilty every time I go out of town overnight, > but I trust her care to my family. If I believed for a second that > she would be in danger, I would choose somebody else or cancel my > trip. I don't go that far. I don't mind leaving Kami overnight, but she minds. :) As long as she's got her evening meal and a full bowl of dry for crunchies, there isn't much more that she needs other than to look up and see that I'm still in the same room. When she was a dry food only cat, I could leave her for three days. I don't think she's in any more danger than if she had a neighbor come by to feed her once a day unless the house burns down. I love my cat dearly, but she doesn't dictate my movements. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? >Meghan Noecker <friesian@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote in >rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I love my cat dearly, but she doesn't dictate my movements. I was merely stating that I trust my family enough to leave my cats to them if I when I die. I trust them that much.I have never actually cancelled a trip. But if my family were suddenly ill or also going out of town at the same time, then I would rather reschedule my trip than leave them with somebody I do not trust. Is that more clear? Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com > > I think she was > >just imagining someone mistreating her cats. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > For example, nobody else will love my Kira like I do, and they > probably wouldn't give her the same attention as I do. Yes, I think you're right. And, as much as we may hate to admit it on one level, cats do adjust quite well to new owners. (What I mean is that it kind of hurts to think about Cheeks forgetting all about me, although I would want her to be happy with a new human if I died.) > But would they actually abuse her? Neglect her? Harm her? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > trust her care to my family. If I believed for a second that she would > be in danger, I would choose somebody else or cancel my trip. I've been away from my current two cats for as long as a week. I left Gnarly for a month to go to Europe once, and she remembered me when I got back, but it took a while for her to get back to normal. She was whiney and wimpy and sad. And I had a neighbor who not only fed her but hung out with her in the evenings and watched TV with her. I'm at a point in my life now where I enjoy the company of my cats more than I enjoy the company of even some of my favorite people, so I don't plan on traveling unless it is necessary or to someplace FABULOUS. Las Vegas? Not a chance. Greece? You bet! But I would have a sitter for my girls. circa Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:42:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Brandy??Alexandre (brandy@kamikaze.orgy) said, > My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying of > pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take her to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > crying as soon as she pulled into the parking lot, but I just feel it > was wrong on some level. What do you think? I think what your sister did is repugnant. Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. >I think what your sister did is repugnant. > >Laura I agree, but the "Let's not and say we did" idea is equally repugnant. IMO, it would be far better to flat refuse, and try to persuade the woman to re-home the cats, and help her do so. Instead of flat out lying. I can't really criticize the woman herself, because I've never had cancer or been faced with such a situation. It's possible, also IMO, that the woman is distraught and depressed, and can't see the situation clearly. Maybe she feels there's no hope to re-home the cats. Who knows. It's a sad story. Sherry >> I think what your sister did is >> repugnant. >> Laura > I agree, but the "Let's not and say we > did" idea is equally repugnant. Not if it is the only way to save the lives of the cats. Sometimes lying can be the ethical thing to do. >IMO, it > would be far better to flat refuse, and > try to persuade the woman to re-home the > cats, and help her do so. Instead of > flat out lying. This seemed to be a case of the woman deciding the cat's should die because "nobody could take care of them like she did." You can't convince people like that that their cats could live happily without them. "Flat out lying" would have saved them. >I can't really criticize > the woman herself, because I've never > had cancer or been faced with such a > situation. None of that is an excuse for killing healthy cats and cancer does not excuse someone from doing the right thing. >It's possible, also IMO, that > the woman is distraught and depressed, > and can't see the situation clearly. > Maybe she feels there's no hope to > re-home the cats. Who knows. She was thinking of herself and not the cats. That much is clear. She had the foresight to plan their murder and have them cremated ahead of time so they wouldn't miss the funeral. >It's a sad story. It could have had a happy ending if someone had had the guts to "flat out lie" and save the cats. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >> I agree, but the "Let's not and say we >> did" idea is equally repugnant. > >Not if it is the only way to save the lives of the cats. Sometimes lying >can be the ethical thing to do. Sometimes, maybe. But lying to a dying woman is something I couldn't do. I agree with Cheryl in that respect--personally I'd never make a promise to the dying I wouldn't keep. I'd promise to take the cats myself and do my damndest to convince her of that before I'd lie about it. I could have missed something in the post, but it isn't clear how much of an attempt was made to offer the woman alternatives. Sherry >But lying to a dying woman is something >I couldn't do. I didn't know that dying made people "special" or exempt from behaving ethically. It's a shame that you place more importance on someone who is willing to kill their healthy cats because they are "dying" than the cats who will be killed. I really expected better from you and am very disappointed. What I couldn't live with is not intervening in any way I could to prevent the murder of the cats. If that means lying to a dying woman then so be it. Whether or not that person could "watch" me once they are in the afterlife doesn't matter. Why would I or should I care? My only concern is what's here on earth and my mission would be to make sure the cats weren't killed and found a new home. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >> I agree, but the "Let's not and say we > >> did" idea is equally repugnant. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sometimes, maybe. But lying to a dying woman is something I couldn't do. I'm with you. This is the kind of thing hell might be INVENTED for. > > Sometimes, maybe. But lying to a dying woman is something I couldn't > do. > > I'm with you. This is the kind of thing hell might be INVENTED for. Why? In this case, the lie would save the lives of the cats -- and would not harm the dying woman in any way. I would have a different reaction if the situation were described as one where the cats were going to be turned out on the streets to fend for themselves, but that was not the case at all. This woman "wanted the cats with her" and did not give anyone an opportunity to try to find homes for them. MaryL "MaryL" said: > This woman "wanted the cats with her" I didn't get that from the original post, which is long gone on my server. However, I would still never lie to someone regarding fulfilling their dying wish. I would just refuse. Why? If you are the sort of person I would have to explain this to, my answer to you must be "that's personal." > "MaryL" said: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would have to explain this to, my answer to you must be "that's > personal." In that case, I assume you would be willing to (1) greatly upset a dying woman by openly rejecting her request because what she wanted was unnecessary and immoral, or (2) destroy two innocent cats for no other reason than the woman wanted it done that way -- with no thought to trying to find other homes for them. MaryL > > "MaryL" said: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > woman by openly rejecting her request because what she wanted was > unnecessary and immoral, Upsetting her is okay if it is necessary. Lying to her is not. or (2) destroy two innocent cats for no other > reason than the woman wanted it done that way -- with no thought to trying > to find other homes for them. Mary L., Bless your heart, but you did pull this last one out of your butt. :) I never said anything of the kind. > > > "MaryL" said: > > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > butt. > :) I never said anything of the kind. I said "either ... or," and you apparently would have chosen to upset a dying woman rather than lie to her (a lie she would never have known about and which could not have harmed her in any way). MaryL "MaryL" > > > I said "either ... or," Ah. I'm speed reading again. > and you apparently would have chosen to upset a > dying woman rather than lie to her You bet. Absolutely. Right on the mark. That is what I said. >(a lie she would never have known about > and which could not have harmed her in any way). 1. Check your assumptions. 2. Even if your assumptions could be known to be accurate, I *still* would not lie in this situation. 3. I have much too much respect for my fellow humans than to lie in such a situation. Each and every human, piece of sh*t that he or she may be, deserves a certain level of respect. It would diminish ME not to give it. > "MaryL" > > > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > certain level of respect. It would diminish ME not > to give it. Since we have come this far, let's clarify this so that there can be no misunderstanding. Would you kill the cats? If not, exactly what *would* you do? Are you, perhaps, saying that you would simply reject the woman's request? If so, she would probably go to someone else and have the cats destroyed. You have now lost control of the situation and cannot do anything to save these innocent cats that have done *nothing* to deserve this fate. And what about your comment that even "a piece of sh*t" deserves a "certain level of respect"? Are you saying that someone who would destroy healthy cats for selfish reasons deserves respect? If you're going to make statements like this, you should be willing to explain why you believe this. MaryL > > "MaryL" > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Since we have come this far, let's clarify this so that there can be no > misunderstanding. Would you kill the cats? Okay, that's it. Reread the goddamned thread. Idiot. > > Since we have come this far, let's clarify this so that there can be > no > > misunderstanding. Would you kill the cats? > > Okay, that's it. Reread the goddamned thread. Idiot. Your *non-answer* speaks volumes. However, let me quote from your own message in the "This makes me soooo mad" thread. You said to someone else writing on that thread: "Why are you making excuses for this cat-hating loser? I demand to know!" It seems that you feel free to "demand" information from others when you are not willing to provide much information yourself (in fact, you said earlier that your answer must be "that's personal"). You have said that you would be willing to lie to a dying woman. You have not said anything about what would happen to the cats. MaryL > You have said that you would be willing to lie to a dying woman. You have > not said anything about what would happen to the cats. > > MaryL CORRECTION: (Now I'm the one going too fast.) Obviously, Mary said she would *not* lie to a dying woman (*not* that she "would" lie to a dying woman). MaryL > >I think what your sister did is repugnant. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > depressed, and can't see the situation clearly. Maybe she feels there's no hope > to re-home the cats. Who knows. It's a sad story. This is the kind of situation where you almost have to be IN the position before you know what you would do. "Brandy" ought to know that. I didn't promise my Mom anything, but I bet she knew that we would try to keep Sissy and would not euthanize her unless she continued to be totally miserable. Myself, if I was not willing or able to step forward and TAKE the cats, and GUARANTEE that they would not suffer, might just stfu. I understand the worry that someone might mistreat the babies you have spoiled rotten and adored. And I know that there are things worse than death. > My sister has been sort of helping out her neighbor who is dying of > pancreatic cancer. She's helping to pack up the house, take her to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > crying as soon as she pulled into the parking lot, but I just feel it > was wrong on some level. What do you think? I understand that your sister was helping out her neighbor & most likely didn't want to lie to her - the neighbor already has huge problems (I knew someone who died of pancreatic cancer; it has very poor cure rate), but... I agree w/ you & think it was the wrong thing to do. In your place, I don't know if I'd actually be mad at her (your sister) - she obviously wasn't happy about the situation, either, & was put into a hard place, but... I couldn't have done it. I would've either have adopted them myself & let the neighbor know they'd be taken care of, or have looked for homes for them (caring for them in the interim) - again letting the neighbor know they'd be well taken care of, or else have just told the neighbor that I'd taken them to the vet for euthanasia, but followed my own plans instead. Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon > -- > Brandy Alexandre? > http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx > Well, would you? > I would've either have adopted > them myself & let the neighbor know they'd be taken care of, or have > looked for homes for them (caring for them in the interim) - again > letting the neighbor know they'd be well taken care of, or else have > just told the neighbor that I'd taken them to the vet for euthanasia, > but followed my own plans instead. This kind of situation really depends on what you think the afterlife consists of. We will never know what they know after they're gone, but what if they *do* know. If you make a promise to a dying person, will you take the chance that they aren't watching. I'd never make a promise to someone dying that I wouldn't make to someone living. SignatureCheryl I am a very happy person. It's just that I have no patients for stupidity. - IBen Getiner > If you make a promise to a dying person, will you take > the chance that they aren't watching. I'd never make a promise to someone > dying that I wouldn't make to someone living. I would *not* be willing to have healthy cats euthanized at the request of a healthy person, either. MaryL >This kind of situation really depends on >what you think the afterlife consists of. The "afterlife" has nothing to do with it. There is only one issue to be considered here and that is whether or not one believes it is wrong to kill perfectly healthy cats. If one believes it is wrong and they are in a position to save them, the only ethical thing to do *is* to save them and if that means lying to a dying person then so be it. If, however, one places more importance on what someone "might" think in this life or the next and does nothing, they become a party to murder. Whatever one's religious belief system might be, I can't believe a higher power would condone in any way, shape or form the murder of innocent, healthy cats for selfish reasons. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray zuzu22@webtv.net dumped this in news:7364-40588672-562@storefull- 3197.bay.webtv.net on 17 Mar 2004: > If one believes it is wrong and they are in a position to save them, the > only ethical thing to do *is* to save them and if that means lying to a > dying person then so be it. I just don't agree. I wouldn't lie to a dying person, but I wouldn't agree to their wish to kill their pet, either. I can't see this ever coming up n my lifetime so I'm not going to spend much time thinking about it. SignatureCheryl I am a very happy person. It's just that I have no patients for stupidity. - IBen Getiner Cheryl <jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > zuzu22@webtv.net dumped this in news:7364-40588672-562@storefull- > 3197.bay.webtv.net on 17 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > see this ever coming up n my lifetime so I'm not going to spend > much time thinking about it. The woman passed away last night. She had initially been expect to live 6 months--until October. The big concern now is whether they'll get the cats back before they have to cremate her. They're calling the vet who made the arrangements with the crematory to tell them it's now a rush. They had been told a week to ten days to get them back. I told her about the comments here and what you guys would have done, and she said that she had actually asked around to other about taking in the cats. Her own husband doesn't want cats, so she couldn't foster them herself. She considered refusing to do it, but then the woman's nephew was going to it--and he would have. She preferred that they know her emotion about it--they knew her--rather than "the Marine" probably not so kindly stuffing them in the crate. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:43:23 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: >Cheryl <jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in >rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >know her emotion about it--they knew her--rather than "the Marine" >probably not so kindly stuffing them in the crate. May her filthy soul know no rest..... eq > On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:43:23 GMT, "Brandy Alexandre" > <brandy@kamikaze.orgy> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > eq This comment - personally, I find it as disconcerting as the whole original problem. Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon << This comment - personally, I find it as disconcerting as the whole original problem. Cathy >> I agree. While I don't condone the plan she concocted, I can certainly understand that, when faced with a terminal illness, one might not make the most rational decision in the world. I'm very sorry her poor kitties had to die, too, but she may have been a very nice person who just got f.cked up by cancer. I wouldn't wish that her soul was doomed to eternal hell or whatever. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) Maybe the cats aren't even dead. Remember the recent thread where the woman took her cat to the vet to be euthanized and it turned up a couple of months later at the humane society because the vet didn't want to put it to sleep? (Anyone heard from her as to whether her cat is better?) Basically, if you're not present with the cat at its time of death, you don't know if it's dead...unless you see the body. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
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