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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2005Urinary tract crystals - causes
My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months, has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the space of the last several weeks, she has several times pulled a towel off the towel rack in the bathroom and, in three cases, has peed on the towel. I noticed the smell when I bent down to pick up the towel; after the first such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up, just to see if it had been peed on. The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd actually seen her urinating in my laundry basket a couple of times; at that time, the vet took a urine sample by squeezing her bladder and when the test results confirmed a problem, he put her on antibiotics (Orbax) and a special food, Hill's s/d, until both were used up. That seemed to work for a couple of years so we decided to try the same thing test again this time. This week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again. The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she eats only Hill's c/d. I never give her snacks or treats and I never give her anything other than c/d. The only exception is that a couple of times she has had some of my mother's cat's food when I left her over there for a few days in addition; she still got the c/d but was "invited" to share the other cat's food so she had a bit of theirs too. But she has only ever been at mom's house for two to five days at a time, two or three times a year; the last time this year was in early August. The vet thinks it's highly unlikely that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short period could cause Samba problems. It looks very much as if Samba is eating *something* that isn't part of her meals which is causing crystal formation. The vet asked if Samba could have eaten any plants in my house but I don't have any so that can't be the source of the problem. I thought I'd ask if anyone here can suggest other sources of things besides food that might cause crystals. For instance, one of the things Samba does to get my attention in the morning is to lick my night table. Her raspy tongue on the wood surface sounds like sandpaper and wakes me up. I wonder if she could be ingesting a bit of the finish on the wood each time she does that; maybe the digested finish causes crystals? It feels like a long shot to me but it is something that she has in her mouth so it seems like a remote possibility. The vet's assistant also speculated that she might be getting crumbs of my food that have landed on the table, floor, or kitchen counter and that may be enough to cause the crystals. I'm not sure if the assistant has any specific veterinary training but she has been working with my vet for at least 5 years and obviously has some experience in dealing with cats. And I'm a middle-aged guy living alone whose not the tidiest housekeeper in the world so I can't rule out some stray crumbs. I also wonder if anyone has any information that would confirm that cats on a steady diet of c/d definitely could not get crystals. Could the vet simply be mistaken in believing that c/d prevents crystal formation in 100% of cases? According to the information on Hill's web site for c/d, http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id =845524441763388&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474395204707&bmUID=1132753700242&bmLo cale=en_CA, c/d "contains reduced building blocks for struvite and produces an acid urine pH, lowering the chances that struvite crystals will form". That certainly doesn't suggest any certainty that eating c/d will _guarantee_ the absence of crystals. But maybe they have just understated the description on their web site to prevent possible lawsuits; if they guaranteed that crystals couldn't form and then a cat who could be proven to eat only c/d developed crystals, they could be exposed to a lawsuit. I would dearly love to prevent any future bouts of this problem so if anyone can suggest causes of crystal formation or a food that would be better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear it. Rhino > The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have > crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a > few months old and the vet assures me that she can't get crystals if she > eats only Hill's c/d. > Rhino If that is really what your vet said, then it seems that it is time for a new vet. Diet can *reduce* the possibility of crystals, but I have never heard anyone else say that a cat "can't get crystals" merely because of a specific diet. MaryL >> The thing that has both the vet and me baffled is why she would have >> crystals in the first place. Samba has been on Hill's c/d since she was a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > heard anyone else say that a cat "can't get crystals" merely because of a > specific diet. I wonder if the salesman who convinced my vet to carry the Hill's prescription foods exaggerated the benefits of c/d and s/d and made them sound like 100% guarantees when they are really just a good food that reduces crystal formation.... Rhino > > If that is really what your vet said, then it seems that it is time for a > > new vet. Diet can *reduce* the possibility of crystals, but I have never [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sound like 100% guarantees when they are really just a good food that > reduces crystal formation.... Just remember, scientists rarely if ever think in terms of 100 percent. You do need to find out which sort of crystals. There are prescription diets for both, I believe.  SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ >>I would dearly love to prevent any >> future bouts of this problem so if >> anyone can suggest causes of crystal >> formation or a food that would be >> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear >> it. Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine and could help prevent formation of crystals. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > >>I would dearly love to prevent any > >> future bouts of this problem so if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire > >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') It comes in dry and canned varieties. There are 3 flavors of Feline c/d canned. > >>I would dearly love to prevent any > >> future bouts of this problem so if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine > and could help prevent formation of crystals. I agree with Mike. I would definitely try her on a canned diet, maybe another brand from Hill's and see how she does. Samba is getting a dry c/d based on chicken and rice. Rhino Rhino wrote: >>I would dearly love to prevent any >> future bouts of this problem so if >> anyone can suggest causes of crystal >> formation or a food that would be >> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear >> it. Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine and could help prevent formation of crystals. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') Do you mean that I should switch her to a wet food AFTER Samba finishes the Orbax antibiotic and the s/d dry food the vet prescribed so that the wet food is her full time food? Or are you suggesting I ignore the vet's advice and put her on wet food right away, presumably while taking the Orbax until it is finished? Rhino Rhino wrote: >>I would dearly love to prevent any >> future bouts of this problem so if >> anyone can suggest causes of crystal >> formation or a food that would be >> better for her than c/d, I'd love to hear >> it. Is the c/d a dry or canned food? If it's dry, I would switch her to any high quality canned food. This would provide more water in the urine and could help prevent formation of crystals. ---MIKE--- >>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire >> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580') > Do you mean that I should switch her to a wet food AFTER Samba finishes the > Orbax antibiotic and the s/d dry food the vet prescribed so that the wet > food is her full time food? Or are you suggesting I ignore the vet's advice > and put her on wet food right away, presumably while taking the Orbax until > it is finished? I don't think you should discontinue s/d without consulting your vet. But I do think you might want to ask your vet for the canned version of s/d and possibly later, canned c/d. Even though the dry and canned versions are similarly formulated, the canned versions are more efficacious. Canned diets generally increase the cat's total daily water intake and urine volume which in turn reduces the concentration of the solutes in the urine, especially the crystalline substances, and makes it easier for them to pass. Also, the higher daily water intake results in more frequent urination, which in turn gets rid of tiny crystalline particles before they can aggregate or accrete into larger and larger particles that can eventually become crystals or stones. The longer that crystalline particles remain in the urinary tract, the larger they can grow. After she's clear of crystals, she could probably be maintained on a good commercial diet and a twice-a-day feeding pattern. Try to find a good meat-based canned food that doesn't contain a lot of plant material. Meat naturally acidifies the urine whereas plant material has an alkalinizing effect- which can promote the formation of struvite. Also, feeding twice a day allows the cat's natural urine acidity to return between meals and dissolve struvite particles. Best of luck, Phil Hello Rhino, Did the vet say that they were struvite crystals in particular? There are a couple of different kinds. Struvite can form if the urine is too akaline. One thing that makes urine go akaline is stress. Any extra stresses for her right now? Any other cats picking on her? C/d is supposed to help make the urine more acidic. If her urine is too acidic, calcium oxalate crystals can form. Did she have a bacterial infection too either time, or just the crystals? Good luck finding the answer, Rhonda > This > week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and she has > been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again. I'm afraid the vet didn't give me any details on the particular type of crystals in her urine. He might tell me if I ask him but I don't know. I could try though if you think it is a good idea. I'm not sure if she had a bacterial infection in either case. The vet prescribed Orbax both times; does that suggest an answer? I'm not sure what Orbax actually does..... As for stresses, no, I don't think she's under any special stress now. All of us in this house, Samba, the other cat Bebop, and I, lead a pretty quiet low-stress life :-) Samba and Bebop have occasional fights and very occasionally there is actually some crying or yelping when someone gets too rough but it's a rare day that they don't lie down together to sleep with one another (and me) for at least part of the day. There are no other pets or humans in the house. Rhino > Hello Rhino, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> This week's test confirmed some urinary tract crystals in her urine and >> she has been prescribed Orbax and Hill's s/d again. > I'm not sure if she had a bacterial infection in either case. The vet > prescribed Orbax both times; does that suggest an answer? Possible but not probable- unless the vet had the crystals cultured for bacterial growth. Infection-induced struvite can be caused by a bacterial urinary tract infection. However, *true* bacterial UTIs in cats are actually uncommon because of the high osmolality and acidity of feline urine and multiple host defense mechanisms of the cat. Most UTIs in cats are misdiagnoses because the urine was obtained by voiding and thus contaminated by bacteria that normally inhabit the distal urinary tract. When UTIs do occur in cats, they're usually found in cats with predisposing factors (e.g., older age, CRF, diabetes, immunocompromise). Females are more susceptible to infections because the infection has a shorter distance to travel. If your vet obtained the urine sample via expressing her bladder, the sample wasn't suitable for culture because it was probably contaminated. I'm not sure what > Orbax actually does..... Its an antibiotic that's in the same drug class as Baytril (fluoroquinolone class)- only safer and probably more effective against the bacteria that's most commonly associated with UTIs in cats. Many crystals and stones found in cats are actually "plugs" rather than true crystals. Plugs are something like Fruit Jello- where the crystalloid particles would analogous to the fruit and plug matrix would be analogous to the Jello. Plug matrix is usually composed of sloughed tissue, dead cells and debris and thought to follow UTIs. If your vet founds plugs or plug matrix in the urine, he might have prescribed Orbax on the speculation that your cat has a UTI. Phil > My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months, > has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > such incident, I started sniffing the towel each time before hanging it up, > just to see if it had been peed on. Rhino, Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure that they are still struvite crystals? As cats get older the risks change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts which were struvite formers as younger cats to swtich over to CaOx formers later in life. No treatment is 100% effective. If the crystals are still struvite then moving to a canned version of c/d would be your best choice. If the crystals are not struvite, which would not surprise me at all, then it will be necessary to move to a different diet - x/d instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms. >> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months, >> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure > that they are still struvite crystals? He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can try.... > As cats get older the risks > change from struvite to Calcium Oxalte. It is not uncommon for cts [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > instead of c/d. Again feeding a canned version can reduce the problem > as well. x/d and c/d both come in canned forms. Rhino > He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he > examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab > report. Should I ask him? I don't know if he would tell me but I can try.... Why wouldn't he tell you? It's important to know. Your veterinarian is a physician for animals. Would your physician say, "You have a disease." "What disease?" "Oh, I'm not going to tell you."? :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ >> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he >> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "You have a disease." "What disease?" "Oh, I'm not going to tell you."? > :) I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that I am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall that he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no knowledge of veterinary science. I know that at least one veterinarian, Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup but I'm not sure if anyone who has responded in this thread has any more knowledge of veterinary medicine than I do. I don't want put my ver in the position of feeling that he is being second-guessed by people with far fewer qualifications than he has. Having said that, I know that everyone profession graduates some quacks so I'm using this newsgroup as sort of a sanity check to see if he is missing something. Rhino > I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that I > am questioning his competence. After all, he has a diploma on his wall that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > than I do. I don't want put my ver in the position of feeling that he is > being second-guessed by people with far fewer qualifications than he has. Does the diploma on the wall say that he is a vet who is board certified or that he is just a vet? Does he specialize in felines? Why do you say that Phil is a vet? Did Phl ever say he was a vet? Where do you get that information? You need more precision in what you say when you deal with illness. As far as someone having the same knowledge as you do, we can't make a decision because you have not presented any information aside from the fact that your cat has problems, possibly crystals and is using s/d or c/d. You have access to the internet. You said your vet was thinking of using s/d long term. Why not look up on the internet if that is a good idea or bad or sometimes a good idea. S. Crane who responded here that its low pH could precipitate stones knows something. He is not a vet but he works for the company that makes that product. He works for Science Diet. He knows something. Why not call Science Diet and ask for help. Ask them if it's a good idea and when to provide s/d on a permanent basis. Can you do that? We are going by what you said. If you don't feel we are qualified; it's mainly because you are not giving any real factual information. It's not our fault that you do not ask questions, very, very basic questions. Some of us might not have a vet diploma on the wall but we have more experience in science than almost any vet you will ever come across in your entire life. I think you are criticizing us because we are pointing out that you are not doing very basic things. You are not looking up on the internet what is and what is not about s/d or c/d. Have you done a basic search yet? I doubt it because then you would know that s/d is usually, almost usually, a short term process. If your vet is going to use this long term, is he aware that there could be complications from its low pH or fat content. I had a problem with s/d. But I don't have a diploma on the wall that says "vet" - should I refuse to answer your post then? In the future, I will try to avoid your posts since you do not appreciate our trying to help you in spite of yourself. I regret taking the time to answer yours posts. It is obviously a waste of time. You seem unable to process simple information like s/d is not a good idea for long term use especially since your vet is not giving you specifics. There's nothing more I can do if you cannot process logical statements, now is there? I'm surprised because usually computer people know simple logic. If you want a newsgroup that has more "qualifications" I suggest you go to the vet newsgroup. How's that? Go to a newsgroup which is peopled with vets who have diplomas on the wall. Sound reasonable? A vet newsgroup, that is, a veterinary newsgroup. For vets but they take lay questions. Or used to when I last used them. I don't mean to be testy but your post put me in a bad mood. I feed sad when I read posts like yours which have very limited information and makes everybody look bad. Happy Thanksgiving >> I need a bit of guidance in how to ask him without making him think that >> I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you get that information? You need more precision in what you say when > you deal with illness. My vet's sign - the one on the street - says that he is board certified specializing in small animals. I've only ever seen cats and dogs at his office but he may handle birds, hamsters or whatever for all I know. I am in Canada and he was trained at the University of Calgary; I don't know if the Canadian definition of "board certified" is the same as the US definition; for that matter, I don't know if you are American or something else; if you are Australian for example, "board certified" may mean something different than it does here or in the US. As for Phil, I was sure I saw something a few years back that gave me the distinct impression he was a veterinarian. I think someone else said he was a veterinarian, not that he said it himself, but no one in that thread contradicted it so I assumed that was the case. I see now that he has jumped into this thread and is NOT a vet: this is the first I've heard about it. I stand corrected. With regards to greater precision, I originally wrote a much longer post describing Samba's full medical history, the history of Bebop (the other cat in the house) and the histories of Sam and Tiger, the two cats that belong to my mother, which is where I board Samba occasionally when I have to be away. I was also going to go into considerable detail about the environment here and at my mother's place in case there was any potential cause for illness in the environment. But I didn't finish that post and decided not to try for one simple reason: very few people would have had the patience to finish it, let alone reply. Believe me, I write a lot of long posts on a variety of different newsgroups and very few people on any of them will actually read such tracts. Much to my frustration, I might add. Instead, I decided to stick to some basic information and let people ask me supplementary questions if they needed more information. You may be one of the rare few who would actually wade through a much longer post; if so, good for you. I certainly didn't mean to slight you but being skimpy with information. I just wanted to make sure I got some answers, not had my post ignored because it was too large for people to wade through. > As far as someone having the same knowledge as you do, we can't make a > decision because you have not presented any information aside from the > fact that your cat has problems, possibly crystals and is using s/d or > c/d. Feel free to ask further questions; I'm happy to answer them if you need more information to make a recommendation. But I've just explained why I have not given you every conceivable fact about Samba in my original post. > You have access to the internet. You said your vet was thinking of > using s/d long term. Why not look up on the internet if that is a good > idea or bad or sometimes a good idea. I *am* doing exactly that; this thread proves that. > S. Crane who responded here that > its low pH could precipitate stones knows something. He is not a vet > but he works for the company that makes that product. He works for > Science Diet. He knows something. Why not call Science Diet and ask for > help. Ask them if it's a good idea and when to provide s/d on a > permanent basis. Can you do that? If I can track down a phone number or email address, I am willing to do that. But Hills undoubtedly has lawyers who may very well encourage their staff to be very guarded with their answers for fear of prompting lawsuits from disgruntled pet owners. That might tend to compromise the advice I get from Hills if I approach them officially. It is certainly in Hills self-interest to make their products look as good as possible and to downplay any limitations in it. That's why I like to get advice from several sources, not just rely on one. > We are going by what you said. If you don't feel we are qualified; it's > mainly because you are not giving any real factual information. It's > not our fault that you do not ask questions, very, very basic > questions. Some of us might not have a vet diploma on the wall but we > have more experience in science than almost any vet you will ever come > across in your entire life. I meant no disrespect to anyone who replied to my thread, including you. I only come here very sporadically and didn't recognize anyone that responded. That means I don't know you or Steve Crane or Rhonda or Diane and I have no idea what your qualfications are in answering my questions. I certainly don't mean to disparage any advice that doesn't come from a vet! I realize that some people here are probably experienced cat breeders who may know as much or more than a vet about urinary problems. But no one here spelled out there qualifications to me and I did not want to assume that everyone who replied was at least as knowledgeable as my vet simply because they bothered to reply. I've been on plenty of newsgroups where people are all too ready to weigh in with an authoritative-sounding opinion on something without having the slightest clue what they were talking about. Sometimes, those people were very convincing and fooled me until others with more expertise set me straight. This is particularly easy in newsgroups where I don't know much about the subject at hand, like this one. > I think you are criticizing us because we are pointing out that you are > not doing very basic things. You are not looking up on the internet > what is and what is not about s/d or c/d. That's not true. I went to the Hills site and read their product descriptions for c/d and s/d. I'm not sure how much I said about it in this thread but I believe I mentioned it, although probably not in great detail. > Have you done a basic search > yet? I doubt it because then you would know that s/d is usually, almost > usually, a short term process. If your vet is going to use this long > term, is he aware that there could be complications from its low pH or > fat content. I had a problem with s/d. Yes, you've said this at least three times now. Each time, I've replied that my vet is aware of risks in using s/d on a long-term basis and had some extra precautions in mind if it became necessary to do that. But you never seen to hear that and keep assuming that my vet is unaware of long term consequences of using s/d. > But I don't have a diploma on > the wall that says "vet" - should I refuse to answer your post then? In > the future, I will try to avoid your posts since you do not appreciate > our trying to help you in spite of yourself. See my remarks elsewhere in this reply. > I regret taking the time to answer yours posts. It is obviously a waste > of time. You seem unable to process simple information like s/d is not > a good idea for long term use especially since your vet is not giving > you specifics. There's nothing more I can do if you cannot process > logical statements, now is there? I'm surprised because usually > computer people know simple logic. See my remarks elsewhere in this reply. > If you want a newsgroup that has more "qualifications" I suggest you go > to the vet newsgroup. How's that? Go to a newsgroup which is peopled > with vets who have diplomas on the wall. Sound reasonable? A vet > newsgroup, that is, a veterinary newsgroup. For vets but they take lay > questions. Or used to when I last used them. See my remarks elsewhere in this reply. > I don't mean to be testy but your post put me in a bad mood. I feed sad > when I read posts like yours which have very limited information and > makes everybody look bad. See my remarks elsewhere in this reply. > Happy Thanksgiving Thank you, you too! Rhino > >> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he > >> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > he presumably worked hard to earn; I'm just a computer geek with no > knowledge of veterinary science. That's never made a difference to me. If I want to know something, I ask. A good veterinarian is not going to be offended. At the clinic I go to, the veterinarians often tell you what they're going to do or what they did, which gives me more confidence in them than if it was some secret. It's not some shrouded mystery and shouldn't be. SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ >> >> He sent the urine test out to a lab for analysis. I don't know if he >> >> examined the crystals under a microscope himself or relied on the lab [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > they did, which gives me more confidence in them than if it was some > secret. It's not some shrouded mystery and shouldn't be. I hope you're right. I'll give it a try. Rhino "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3eohf.32050 I know that at least one veterinarian, > Phil, responds to questions on this newsgroup If you're referring to me- since I'm the only regular "Phil" (although I am irregular sometimes), I'm not a vet. Phil > "Rhino" <no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:3eohf.32050 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > am > irregular sometimes), I'm not a vet. Yes, I think I am referring to you. I stand corrected! I'm sure I saw a thread a couple of years back where you were described - by someone else - as a vet and no one contradicted it so I assumed it was true. You certainly "talk the talk" so I can well imagine that someone would mistake you for a vet :-) Rhino > >> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six months, > >> has recently started peeing inappropriately at sporadic intervals. Over [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > Rhino I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab. If he did sent this out to a lab, there would be a lab report. You are afraid to ask for the lab report then? You need to speak up for the safety of your cat. > I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored > as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be > surprised if he sent something as simple as this out to a lab. That's very true. Any urine left alone at room temperature long enough will crystallize. Typically the clinic will take a quick look in a microscope immediately after drawing the urine. The labs job is determine crystal type more thoroughly. In a way the growth of crystals really isn't too much of concern to the lab, since the primary task is to determine type. Most clinics will send urine samples out to a lab for several additional diagnostic activities and to confirm their own analysis. I would be more surprised if the clinic did not send samples out to a lab. >> I quoted a study that found more crystals in samples that were stored >> as opposed to fresh samples which are analyzed immediately. I would be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > analysis. I would be more surprised if the clinic did not send samples > out to a lab. I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard operating procedure" to you? By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound as if you might. Rhino > I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the > events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard > operating procedure" to you? > > By the way, do you have veterinary training? I'm just curious; you sound as > if you might. Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in various capacities. Presently I work with our nutritional technical information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's teaching vets how to use the diets. What you describe is not out of norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve the crystals in the first place is very much the norm. Re-examination at the end of some given period to make sure the crystals are gone is the norm. Then it will be up to the vet and you to determine the best way to proceed. Canned versions of c/d might be the right choice, but until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that decision has to be on hold. >> I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the >> events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > information group. I spent the majority of those years with Hill's > teaching vets how to use the diets. Thanks for the clarification! Like Phil, you "talk the talk" very well so I thought you might be a vet. From the sounds of it, you are *very* well versed on the nature of the Hill's foods so that makes you a very valuable contributer to this discussion. Thanks for jumping in! > What you describe is not out of > norm at all. Antibiotic therapy and s/d for a period of time to resolve [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that > decision has to be on hold. The lab work came back on Tuesday and the vet phoned with a synopsis of the results right away. I didn't get a copy of the lab report though. Should I ask for a copy of the actual report? Or just for specific numbers from that report? Rhino >> I've described what the vet did in my presence and the timeline of the >> events in my reply to treeline12345. Does that all seem like "standard [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > until the lab work comes back and confirms the type of crystal - that > decision has to be on hold. I dropped in on the vet this afternoon and he gave me a copy of the lab report for Samba. Here goes: ------------------------- URINALYSIS: Sample Appearance: Yellow, clear Specific Gravity: 1.054 pH: 6.5 Urobilinogen: Normal Blood: Trace amount Urine Bilirubin: Negative Glucose: Negative Ketones: Negative Protein: + MICROSCOPY: SEDIMENT RBC: occasional Squamous epithelial: occasional WBC: occasional CRYSTALS Triple phosphate: 1-3/HPF ------------------------- The vet says this indicates struvite crystals, not calcium oxalate. He suggested that I bring Samba back in about a month for a followup urine test, after the Orbax and s/d diet have had a chance to do their jobs. I sounded him out on using c/d or s/d wet foods but he was reluctant; he said wet foods had other issues, like increased likelihood of dental problems and "other problems" but I don't think he was too specific about the latter and I didn't want to badger him too much. Basically, he said I was free to give wet c/d if I wanted to but that it would go against his advice and experience of hundreds of cats and dogs. He thought excess magnesium in the drinking water as a cause of Samba's problem was possible but very remote. I think he was quite reasonable in noting that excess magnesium would cause problems for people too and that this is likely to be closely monitored by the water quality control people in the public utility. I'd be very interested in your assessment of this information - as well as anyone else who might still be watching this thread. Rhino This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on wood). Information I got from there: is that it is a myth that dry food is better for a cat's teeth. In fact it can chip them leading to cavities. A cat with urinary problems such as crystal absolutely must have added water in their diet more than what they get from drinking it from a bowl. Dry food provides none of that. A FLUTD cat needs to stay diluted so that the urine doesn't concentrate and form crystals and/or irritate the bladder. Sebastian was on canned cd for years. And even then I had to mix a little water with it, on the advice of his surgeon, or he'd get them again. He is now on Wysong Au Jus chicken with Instincts TC added and I still add water to the food to keep him diluted. Stacey >> Thanks for the compliment, but no I am not a vet. I've worked for >> Hill's who makes the Prescription Diet you are using for 24 years in [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Rhino > This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat > Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on wood). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Stacey That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus, 0.20%, and either 0.01% in calcium or that was a mistake. Anyway, you get all the info at http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/drymatteranalysis.pdf Now that's a real good company. All the info, straight out in one simple PDF file that you can download. That Wysong is a big can for about $2 and can last. Just pure food, not rated for anything but being pure chicken. NEAT! I still have trouble believing .01% calcium. Anybody know if that's possible? That would be a 1 to 20 imbalance of calcium to phosphorus. But with supplementation, since both numbers are low, then it's probably trivial even if accurate. In any case, I also feed occasional Science Diet Oral Care, a little kibble, figure that acts like a tooth brush. Or I can clean my cat's teeth with my thumb. I also have a cat's toothbrush. Even a washcloth. Do you do any of that or was anything like that ever suggested? I am not saying my cat stays quiet the whole time, but I get at least the big fangs and probably could get all the teeth in a day or so, a few at a time. She takes it for about 5 or so seconds and then starts squirming and what not. She's suh a good kitty. Lets me probe her tummy. Now sure what I'm looking for but I feel very "professional":) What is "Instincts TC"? A good supplement, apparently? That would help the phosphorus/calcium balance? Good recommendation or just another good product? >> This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat >> Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > the phosphorus/calcium balance? Good recommendation or just another > good product? I haven't brushed his teeth though I have the little finger brush and cat tooth paste. Instincts TC and Feline Instincts are two brands (two different companies) of supplements that you add to the homemade raw diet. When I was on the IBD list for my other cat Julian I found out about them and that you can add them to the Wysong Au Jus. I went with the Instincts TC because it had less stuff in it than the other. Julian has chronic IBD and the Wysong and Instincts has kept him on an even keel. No runny stinky poops. No medicine or other diet has helped him as much as those have (short of going raw, but i don't have the kind of lifestyle that would allow me to do that). And the bonus that Sebastian can eat it too without any FLUTD problems. Both supplements are available online so you can check out their content. Wysong makes a supplement too called Call of the Wild for raw diets but it is for both dog and cat and was too harsh for julian. Stacey Stacey <treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just > plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus, Chicken au jus shouldn't be fed alone because it isn't a balanced diet. > <treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > That's interesting. I found Wysong au jus Chicken because it was just > > plain chicken, extraordinarily low in phosphorus, > > Chicken au jus shouldn't be fed alone because it isn't a balanced diet. Thanks for taking the time to point that out. I already knew it but it's important you stress that this is pure chicken and nothing else, so missing taurine and other essential supplements. I am amazed that the phosphorus is 0.20% and the calcium is 0.01%. But after the discussions here, I realize these numbers are so low that it does not matter the ratios are out of whack. Wait, the numbers are not that low so for sure the calcium needs to be seriously augmented. I still think the 0.01% is a misprint but that's on their PDF on the web site. And the Turkey Au Jus is 0.05% so maybe it's correct. I guess I could look up the USDA SR-18 [United States Department of Agriculture and their Standard Reference latest on foods and nutrients] and see what they give for chicken. Wait... Okay, looking over meat with or without bone or skin and so on, it seems the ratio is around 10:1 to 14:1 so how they get a 20:1 of P:Ca I don't know. I guess I could call Wysong. I think I tried before with an email or phone call. Since I use this sparingly but if not, it's worth a call. I tried once to get raw chicken necks. That was worth a laugh in a typical just package us supermarket. Just as well. Probably salmonella time then. Do cats handle salmonella well or is it just the ferals possibly? My cat ate one unfortunate small creature and got the runs. Finally a touch of Clindamycin stopped it dead in the tracks but I think she's gotten spoiled on non-wild foods. http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/drymatteranalysis.pdf > > <treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks for taking the time to point that out. I already knew it but I wasn't sure if you knew since you didn't mention it. I didn't want to take any chances. I don't think the phosphorus content is correct. It seems like an as fed value rather than dry matter. Do cats > handle salmonella well or is it just the ferals possibly? Yes. The extreme acidity of the cat's stomach makes them highly resistant to salmonella- unless they're stressed. Stacey, I'm posting this to the newsgroup - a few days later that I'd planned! - but since you haven't posted to the thread in a few days, I'm taking the liberty of copying your email address. I hope you don't mind.... Could you kindly tell me how to find the Yahoo newsgroup you mentioned in your post? Also, do I need an invitation to join and, if yes, how do I get one? It might be wise to spend a bit of time there to learn more about cat nutrition. Also, would a lab test indicating struvite crystals indicate that Samba in fact has FLUTD? Or are the crystals just a precursor to FLUTD? Rhino > This is interesting. I'm on the FLUTD yahoo newsgroup because of my cat > Sebastian having chronic FLUTD (under control at the moment--knock on [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> >> Rhino Hi Rhino, Here is the url of the yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catswithflutd/?yguid=1262309 You have to answer a few questions when you join before your membership is approved. This is just a way to keep out trolls. I think FLUTD is the general term for urinary tract disease of all kinds including crystals, cystitis, etc. I learned a wealth of information from that group, the IBD list as well. Good luck! Stacey >Stacey, > [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] >>> >>> Rhino >> >> My Samba, a five and a half year old female who was spayed at six >> >> months, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > to ask for the lab report then? You need to speak up for the safety of > your cat. The vet and his assistant squeezed Samba's bladder to get a urine sample while I watched a few steps away. I saw the vet use a syringe to pour off some of the excess urine and then to transfer the cloudiest bit of the urine into a specimen container of some kind. He told his assistant to send the sample to the lab while I was there. I did not see him inspect the sample with a microscope, although he did eyeball it. He may have examined the sample himself before sending the sample out but it didn't happen while I was there. The specimen was taken at 4 PM and he phoned me with the results at 10 AM the next morning. I don't know where the lab is but assuming that at least some time was involved in getting it to the lab and running the test, that doesn't leave much time for his own examination of the sample. I'm quite willing to speak up on Samba's behalf but I'm not sure how to ask him without making him feel second-guessed by someone with far less training than he has. (See my reply to Dianne elsewhere in this thread.) Rhino > Rhino, > Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure > that they are still struvite crystals? That's not good enough, Steve. You've got to analyze the layers of the crystal and the *core*. Epitaxy can produce a crystal with a struvite shell over a CaOx core or vice versa. Once the diet dissolves the struvite, the core will grow rapidly. The factors that produced the mineral at the core can be very different from those that produced other layers or the shell. Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis. How was your Thanksgiving? I'm sitting at the computer because I'm too stuffed to move! lol Phil >> Rhino, >> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Appearance isn't accurate- not all struvite crystals look like little > coffins. Nothing beats *quantitative* mineral analysis. Like I said elsewhere in this thread, you really *do* "talk the talk" :-) Phil, are you suggesting another test that I should do to be sure about the nature/cause of Samba's urinary problems? If so, what specifically should I do? I should mention that money is *very* tight for me right now. The vet initially recommended that I get blood tests for $175 (Canadian) but agreed that the urine sample might be adequate under the circumstances. But if I have to get the blood tests or other tests to make sure Samba is being treated appropriately, I'm prepared to consider them if there is any substantial chance that the current course of treatment is likely to do her any harm. Rhino > >> Rhino, > >> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > Like I said elsewhere in this thread, you really *do* "talk the talk" :-) ..and I walk the walk, too. ;) > Phil, are you suggesting another test that I should do to be sure about the > nature/cause of Samba's urinary problems? If so, what specifically should I > do? I'd want a definitive analysis of the crystals if I were you. You want what's called 'quantitative mineral analysis'. Sometimes, the core or the various layers of the crystal/urolith- or plug can give you clues of what was involved in its formation. Some crystals are associated with specific disease processes or infection (e.g., infection-induced struvite, bilirubin, and tyrosine crystals). The shapes and internal structure of crystals can vary too much to make a definitive diagnosis based on their physical appearance alone. > I should mention that money is *very* tight for me right now. The vet > initially recommended that I get blood tests for $175 (Canadian) but agreed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > substantial chance that the current course of treatment is likely to do her > any harm. As I said, mineral analysis should provide you with a lot of information- although a complete blood work-up wouldn't hurt. At the very least, a work-up will give you a baseline for future reference, Best of luck, Phil >> >> Rhino, >> >> Did your vet examine the crystals under the microscope to insure [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > although a complete blood work-up wouldn't hurt. At the very least, a > work-up will give you a baseline for future reference, I'm assuming that the sample used for the initial urine test is long gone so is not available for the mineral analysis you describe. However, I have already tentatively scheduled a followup urine test with the vet for a month from now. If he expresses the urine by squeezing the bladder again, will that provide an appropriate sample for the mineral analysis? Or should he be using a different technique to get the sample? Also, just curious, what does a 'quantitative mineral analysis' cost in your neck of the woods? (I assume you're in the US.) I'd like to get a ballpark idea of what the test should cost me in US dollars. (Ideally, that ballpark idea would include the cost of obtaining the sample to be tested.) I realize that prices might vary somewhat here; I'm just trying to prepare myself for how much money I might need to find to pay for the test. Rhino > I'm assuming that the sample used for the initial urine test is long gone so > is not available for the mineral analysis you describe. She may still have some crystals in her urine. > However, I have already tentatively scheduled a followup urine test with the > vet for a month from now. If he expresses the urine by squeezing the bladder > again, will that provide an appropriate sample for the mineral analysis? Or > should he be using a different technique to get the sample? I'm not crazy about bladder expression because it contaminates the urine with bacteria that normally inhabit the distal urinary tract. However, for mineral analysis, it should be fine. I wouldn't recommend it for a male cat without taking x-rays first. > Also, just curious, what does a 'quantitative mineral analysis' cost in your > neck of the woods? (I assume you're in the US.) I'd like to get a ballpark > idea of what the test should cost me in US dollars. (Ideally, that ballpark > idea would include the cost of obtaining the sample to be tested.) I realize > that prices might vary somewhat here; I'm just trying to prepare myself for > how much money I might need to find to pay for the test. $30- $50- depending on how much your vet marks up the lab bill. The vet will probably send the sample to the U of Minn. Urolith Lab. You can call the lab yourself for the price just to get an idea. Here's their number: 612-625-4221. We don't use that lab, so I don't know their prices. Good luck. Phil > The last such incident occurred on Sunday night and I took her to the vet on > Monday. She had an outbreak of this problem a couple of years ago when I'd [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that a little bit of my mother's cat's food that long ago for such a short > period could cause Samba problems. I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are prescription foods for a purpose. I was furious with the vet for not pointing out that risks involved and stones are more dangerous and may require surgery as compared to crystals. This cat was put on a low ash diet - don't know the food, I was not there later, and is now doing fine, no surgery and no urinary problems and inappropriate urinating problems. I might aim for a very low phosphorus canned food that is fairly well regarded. Science Diet makes some good ones as do others. These are the premium brands. There are those that are low phosphorus and aimed for urinary problems. I would also make sure the cat is drinking sufficient water which could be a culprit here. How? FRESH water, not those water fountains. Fresh water that is filtered, not tap water. And sometimes put out fresh water and NO FOOD until she drinks. I sometimes do that with my cat. She meows and what not but then drinks the water just to have something to do in the morning until the food appears. Are they very sure what is the problem here? Crystals or a stone or what? You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit. I am not a vet nor have a whole lot of experience. But the experience I have is not good with vets. And I am now a bit suspicious of the prescription foods by Science Diet since finding out that high fat can cause other problems. It's not all that simple. I would not be surprised if the s/d caused problems. If your vet is baffled, he may not be that well versed. I am wondering if she is developing a stone because of the high fat content of these special diets as happened with the cat kitty-sat for a few weeks. Vets and this was a super special cat vet who was miffed when I told her that her practice never said anything about the high fat content. > I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of > these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I > forget now, are extremely high in fat and can only be fed in very > limited quantities - probably the s/d? In any case, they are > prescription foods for a purpose. Prescription Diet s/d is designed for limited use to dissolve struvite stones. It is not to be used long term. Why? Precisely because it is designed to drive urine pH below 6.0 and thus dissolve the struvite stone. If a cat's urine is kept at that low pH level, the risks of calcium oxalate stones increase. It is for this reasons that these foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of the type of diet and length of use can be maintained. > You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more > safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet > had 0% crystals in the urine so maybe something is not good with c/d > and your cat. The all wet food diet was not specific to any brand or > prescription brand. Maybe it's best to rotate foods a little bit. Canned foods can cause crystal and stones as well. There are plenty of canned foods on the market that drive urine pH outside of the 6.2-6.4 range and contain the mineral constituents to create stones and crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates etc. >> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of >> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > foods are only permitted to be sold by veterinarians where control of > the type of diet and length of use can be maintained. My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house, Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see if she has any recurrence of the problem once she returns to c/d. However, he did say that if there is a recurrence, he would be inclined to put her on s/d permanently. He said there would be some risks if he did that because she would not get certain nutrients on a steady s/d diet; perhaps he intends that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet. >> You could ask Science Diet about this. A good canned food might be more >> safe. As I posted a medical reference that showed an all wet food diet [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > crystals in excess of metabolic needs - calcium, magnesium, phoshates > etc. But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the s/d? Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any symptoms of urinary tract issues himself but he has always received the exact same diet as Samba. They are the same age give or take a couple of weeks but are apparently unrelated; I got them both from the animal shelter on the same visit. I'm wondering if I should be doing anything about his diet after they are finished with the s/d? A small side issue is that I bought a new 10 lb bag of dry c/d last weekend, opened the bag and gave Bebop and Samba a few servings of it before they got their annual shots and the urinary tract infection was diagnosed. It's beginning to sound like I won't ever be giving them c/d dry again; should I find someone to give the c/d to? Rhino > >> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of > >> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those > deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet. Are you aware that s/d can cause a bigger problem with calcium stones that we discussed above? Stones can require surgery. Think $1000. I wonder about the competence of your vet to put her on s/d permanently. Do you understand the point that is being made? s/d can cause stones because of its low pH content. >> >> I briefly took care of a cat that developed a calcium stone on one of >> >> these prescription diets. How? The diet either c/d or s/d or both, I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Do you understand the point that is being made? s/d can cause stones > because of its low pH content. As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet of s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just didn't discuss them at length; I don't think he wanted to spend a lot of time on the phone discussing "what ifs" when he was relatively hopeful that the antibiotic and short term s/d diet would solve the problem. I think he intended to revisit this question when and if Samba had further problems after the antibiotics and s/d diet had run their course. Rhino Hi Rhino, What I did with Abernathy was read up about urinary problems on different website, and ask questions here -- as soon as he was diagnosed with a problem. Because I was learning new things and did not really know what to ask the vet in the first appointment, I asked her in the follow-up. Your cat will need a follow-up urine check even if he seems to be acting better. What we did is collect a urine sample at home (the vet gave us a kit of plastic crystals for litter and a syringe) and ran that into their office. This saved him the stress of another trip. It was pretty easy to say to the vet "I've been learning and reading about urinary problems in cats, and wondered what kind of crystals he has, wonder about different foods" etc. She is very easy to talk to anyway, and will often say "good question" when we ask something. She encourages us to learn more and ask questions about the problem. I hope your vet is like that. You can always say that "I'm on a cat group and someone mentioned some things about s/d..." or whatever it is, and see what the vet thinks. Good luck, Rhonda > As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet of > s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just didn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rhino > Hi Rhino, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > kit of plastic crystals for litter and a syringe) and ran that into their > office. This saved him the stress of another trip. I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to hear more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home. The vet and his assistant had a bit of a challenge in collecting her urine sample at his office; I'm afraid that my fumble-fingered efforts might stress her MORE that a vet visit :-) Also, I live alone so have no one handy to help hold her, although I could possibly persuade a friend to come over and help. Samba's a real sweetheart but she can be a handful when you are trying to do something against her will. For example, it used to take three adults just to trim her front claws - one holding her under the armpits, one holding her back feet down, and one trimming - although I can trim her nails by myself now. > It was pretty easy to say to the vet "I've been learning and reading about > urinary problems in cats, and wondered what kind of crystals he has, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that. You can always say that "I'm on a cat group and someone mentioned > some things about s/d..." or whatever it is, and see what the vet thinks. I've been a bit erratic in responding to this thread but I have been following much of the advice in it. Your advice on how to approach the vet has been very useful and I found him pretty receptive to my questions and concerns; he also gave me a copy of the lab report from Samba's urine test without objection. I really appreciate that advice. I guess I'm a bit "old school" in terms of being reluctant to question experts with diplomas on their walls so it's good for me (and Samba!) to get a bit more assertive/pro-active. Rhino >> As I mentioned earlier, the vet seems to be aware that a permanent diet >> of s/d does carry consequences and he seems to understand them. We just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Rhino > I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to > hear more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home. It depends on what the cat will deal with. The vets can supply a non-absorbant plastic litter substitute that some cats will use in place of regular litter. Just put the plastic pellets in an empty box, wait for the cat to pee and then syringe the urine out and into a specimin bottle. This has worked for one of my cats. Unless, you have a cat who doesn't recognize the plastic stuff as suitable material. I have one like that, but she will tolerate me doing a "free-catch" collection. Step one is to feed her and she usually drinks a bit of water after eating, step two is to pick her up and place her in a litter box, she'll usually agree that this is a good idea and proceed to use the box. As soon as she starts, I stick the bottle under her rear and let her fill it up. I have another cat who will pee willingly in an empty litter box. I just leave him in a room with an empty box, come back in a while and there's the sample ready to pour into a bottle. (I don't think this behavior is very common. ) And I've got another cat that nothing so far has worked for. He will pee on the carpet before he uses the plastic pellets or an empty box. He also declines the opportunity to use a box after meals. I've had to let the vet collect the sample from him. > I'd like to save Samba the stress of another vet visit but I'd like to hear > more about the procedure for collecting her urine sample at home. The vet > and his assistant had a bit of a challenge in collecting her urine sample at > his office; I'm afraid that my fumble-fingered efforts might stress her MORE > that a vet visit :-) What we did was scrub out the litter box, then put the plastic pellets in as litter. Of course, he didn't want to use it because of that, so I put a small amount of his regular litter scattered inside so that he could smell that. Then I waited and jumped up the minute he was done and drew some out in a syringe. We took the syringe in as is. The urine crystallizes on it's own when it's old, so you have to get it to the vet right away. If you can't, then ask them how to handle it. Ours told us to refrigerate it if we could not get it there within one hour. The way I got him to go, was to load up his wet food one morning with water. I made it pretty soupy. When he lapped out most of that water, I added more. I had him closed in my office and I just parked in front of the computer and waited. He went within an hour or so. > I've been a bit erratic in responding to this thread but I have been > following much of the advice in it. Your advice on how to approach the vet [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > being reluctant to question experts with diplomas on their walls so it's > good for me (and Samba!) to get a bit more assertive/pro-active. I'm glad that worked out for you. I think we have to be proactive about our own health and our pet's health, which means asking lots of questions. I honestly don't think any good vet would resent that. Let us know how his check-up turns out. Rhonda > But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the s/d? That depend supon what your vet thinks is best for your cat. Your vet is the only one that knows all the particulars about your cat. It is impossible for anyone else to make the right judgment call - they don't have anywhere near the details and information your vet has. > Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any symptoms > of urinary tract issues himself but he has always received the exact same [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > beginning to sound like I won't ever be giving them c/d dry again; should I > find someone to give the c/d to? I wouldn't worry about that - use the dry food as treats for an occasional meal when your gone for a day etc. Crystals don't develop overnight, nor as a result of a single days feeding, it takes time to cause this problem. It is a very rare cat - with STRUVITE crystal formation problems that has any problem with dry c/d. In most cases I have seen over the past 20 plus years, the cat had access to some other foods or the water supply was so loaded with magnesium that it offset the value of the food. >> But c/d wet would be a good choice for Samba after she's finished the >> s/d? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > impossible for anyone else to make the right judgment call - they don't > have anywhere near the details and information your vet has. Agreed. I'm trying very hard to give my vet the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows what he's doing. He may be misinformed about the merits of c/d though; it appears he has an exaggerated belief in the effectiveness of c/d in preventing crystals. >> Also, what should I do about Bebop? He doesn't appear to have any >> symptoms [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I wouldn't worry about that - use the dry food as treats for an > occasional meal when your gone for a day etc. It would take a *long* time to use it up I think :-) I have never given Samba and Bebop treats. I've always been concerned that it would encourage them to beg for treats and maybe even lead them towards being overweight. I realize that a quality treat is likely to minimize any health risk from the food but isn't there a danger I will make moochers of them if I give treats? Or, to put it another way, when is it okay to give treats? Samba and Bebop always eat the food I put out for them right away; they don't nibble a bit and then come back repeatedly over the next several hours like most cats. I believe that this is because of something I tried briefly when I first got them: someone on this newsgroup suggested that I put food down for only a half hour, then discard anything left over. Supposedly, this would cause better bonding between me and the cats. But it simply made them eat everything very quickly - less than 5 minutes for a quarter cup of c/d - and I haven't been able to break them of this habit of eating quickly, even though I stopped picking up their food after only a few weeks. (When they stay at my mother's place they eat some of their food, then come back a few times to finish the rest but nothing I've done at my place has broken them of the eat-it-fast-mentality. I recently had the kitchen floor replaced and made a point of feeding them in new place, a few feet away, and with new dishes but even that didn't break their fast eating habit.) So, if I put a few meals worth of c/d out for them and then left them alone for a day or two, they'd eat it all in the first five minutes then be hungry once they'd digested that. > Crystals don't develop > overnight, nor as a result of a single days feeding, it takes time to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > foods or the water supply was so loaded with magnesium that it offset > the value of the food. The water supply is something I hadn't considered, which is the main reason I posted in the first place :-) I can contact the city and see if they have numbers for the magnesium concentration in the water. I just checked the box and the Brita filter (model 0B07) makes no claims about reducing magnesium. Thanks for this suggestion! I'll look into this and report back when I have an answer.... Rhino > The water supply is something I hadn't considered, which is the main reason > I posted in the first place :-) I can contact the city and see if they have > numbers for the magnesium concentration in the water. I just checked the box > and the Brita filter (model 0B07) makes no claims about reducing magnesium. Magnesium is a dissolved solid and it's impossible to take these out short of distillation or reverse osmosis or water softeners. Ordinary filters cannot affect dissolved solids. You might want to test specifically for magnesium. The local water authority may just test total dissolved solids in general. Around here 500 ppm is the max and my water supply is close to that. In fact, I have so much total dissolved solids that I would burn up a reverse osmosis membrane fairly quicly and they are expensive to replace. So most people have water softeners around here but then it's possible to have too much salt if one is not careful. The water is "hard" in other words. If you easily get deposits in a sink or wherever, then your water is hard in this regard. Usually that means high calcium and magnesium and bring on the water softeners. If I were worried about the magnesium, I would get distilled water or water that has certifiably low magnesium. I might do that come to think of it. I do have two big water filters that take out a lot of other stuff. I guess I could take a sample to Sears and see if my hardness rating has gone down :) The official report of the water supply had 20 grains or around 355 ppm. My water was down to 12 grains so it's best to measure at your particular house unless you know where they measured the water for the public testing. Enough. One web site said that usually 33% of the hardness is due to magnesium so that's not good in my case for sure. That's it. I'm done. Distilled water for my car and for my cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house, > Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that I'd have to give her some kind of supplements then to address those > deficiencies but we didn't get into the details yet. Feeding s/d indefinitely isn't such a good idea. Chronic acid feeding can affect bone metabolism and cause demineralization of bone as well as have potentially detrimental effects on renal function. Chronic acid feeding can also cause metabolic acidosis and possibly hemolytic anemia and predispose your cat to calcium oxalate crystals- which *cannot* be dissolved. Given the choice, I'd rather deal with struvite than calcium oxalate- any day! After the initial crystal problem has been resolved, I think you should be able to manage her on *canned* c/d or even a commercial, meat-based *canned* diet. If your vet puts her on s/d permanently, I'd would seek a second opinion. Remember, crystals are not as dangerous to females are they are to males, so you have a wider margin of safety in which you can try less risky and dangerous treatment options. Good luck, Phil >> My vet only intends for me to feed Samba (and the other cat in the house, >> Bebop), s/d until the current 4 lb bag is exhausted. Then he wants to see [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > dissolved. Given the choice, I'd rather deal with struvite than calcium > oxalate- any day! Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly knows that there are risks to Samba's health in using s/d permanently and hinted at extra precautions that could be taken if he did prescribe s/d permanently. We just didn't discuss those precautions at length because neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick. I will ask the vet if I can get a copy of the lab report from the urine test and then post it back here if I am successful. I would very much like your opinion on whether the urine test and current treatment is appropriate though. I find myself wondering if I should spring for the blood tests just to be sure that the crystals aren't forming as a result of something that isn't dietary, like diabetes or whatever other feline conditions can cause Samba's symptoms. > After the initial crystal problem has been resolved, I think you should be > able to manage her on *canned* c/d or even a commercial, meat-based [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > risky > and dangerous treatment options. Thank you, Phil. All of that is very good to know. But I'd like to ask some followup questions if I may. 1. Assuming that Samba responds to the current treatment and I obtain the lab report for the urine test so that the experts here can advise me on what food to give her when she is finished with the s/d, should I put the other cat in the house, Bebop, on the same diet? He is a neutered male who is the same age as Samba but is apparently unrelated to her; I adopted them in the same visit to the animal shelter. I always feed him the same dry c/d as Samba gets. Both cats are apparently at their ideal weights - 14 lbs for Bebop and 10.5 lbs for Samba - and have been stable at that weight since they were full grown. If UTIs are more dangerous for males, I wonder if Bebop isn't at least as big a candidate for a change as Samba? Then again, I'm not aware of him every urinating outside the litter box so perhaps he has some kind of genetic edge that makes him unlikely to get UTIs? 2. Are there any "environmental" (i.e. non-dietary) causes of urinary crystals other than houseplants or excessive magnesium in the drinking water? From all the feedback I've been getting, it seems as if the smart money is on the dry c/d diet as being the likely cause of Samba's problems but it might be good if I could rule out any other plausible causes. I don't have any houseplants and the cats are strictly indoor cats; the only plants they encounter are at my mother's house when she takes them but that is only for a few days at a time two or three times a year. I'm inclined to think I shouldn't worry about that minimal exposure. (Correct me if I'm wrong!). I'm trying to get magnesium concentrations in our city water as we speak but I suspect the bureaucracy is going to take it's time on this matter. If there are any other environmental causes that I should be investigating, I'd love to know about them. 3. With regards to pill administration, the first time we put Samba on the antibiotic, I simply put the pill in her dry food. I think she ate it every time (or maybe all but one time) without any great hesitation and stayed to finish the rest of her food so I'm pretty sure she didn't just spit out the pill when she had left the room. (I certainly never found any spitted-out pills afterwards). This time, the vet's assistant said I should be putting the pill directly in Samba's mouth. Is that really necessary? I've been giving her the pill orally this time but Samba is getting more stressed each time I do it. She also skitters around very suspiciously while she is eating if I come near, obviously in fear that I am about to grab her and force another pill on her. She forgives me fairly quickly - a few minutes after dinner, she'll curl up between my ankles while I watch TV - but I'd like to avoid the stress of the pill-taking if I can. Rhino > Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the vet > did not suggest that a permanent diet of s/d was without risks. He clearly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > neither of us wanted to spend too much time on "what ifs" at this stage: we > are both cautiously optimistic that the current treatment will do the trick. I must have missed those posts. They appear late. Look, originally you asked if your cat could go without food at the vet's. How dangerous is that? Now that's a really leading question concerning the competency of your vet. Your vet should know your cat is not eating and whether hospitalization is good or not. Next you accuse us of second-guessing your vet who has a diploma on a wall. It's good to ask you repeatedly because you are asking us info that you should be asking your vet and then getting miffed when we point out possible problems. Are you buying the food from the vet? Probably. In any event, the only post I read of yours was that your vet said to use s/d permanently. I wanted to warn you of the possible risks and this runs counter to generally accepted practice. If I had to do this repeatedly, I don't remember but I had to get through your fog and rant about the diplomas on the wall. I go by results not pieces of paper. But in a post I deleted, I pointed out that there are newsgroups which are mostly for vets. Did you ask there? They are not hard to find. They have "vet" somewhere in the title. But why you should ask advice about hospitalization and then admonish us that your vet worked hard to get his diploma is unpleasant and deceptive. You should say, I have concerns, but I don't want any direct answers because I can say I have concerns, but you can't say that because my vet has a diploma on the wall. That's as bad as my cousin who dumped her husband and after telling he she dumped her husband, I asked her why. She then turns on me and says she does not want to talk about it. Poor guy. He's better off without such a nasty woman. Good vets are rare. For too many, it becomes just a job and money is a consideration. I have had a vet tell me what she did to make more money. Not nice. >> Understood! As I've tried to explain to treeline12345 (repeatedly), the >> vet [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I must have missed those posts. I really don't know. They all appear within this thread if that helps. Perhaps your newsreader is wonky? > They appear late. Late? I'm not sure what that means in this context. > Look, originally you asked if your cat could go without food at the vet's. > How dangerous is > that? What??? I said no such thing. My cats have never missed a meal and never will if I have to saw off my own leg to feed them. > Now that's a really leading question concerning the competency of > your vet. Your vet should know your cat is not eating and whether > hospitalization is good or not. What are you referring to? I made a general observation to the effect that every profession seems to graduate a few quacks. I certainly said nothing against my vet. > Next you accuse us of second-guessing > your vet who has a diploma on a wall. I explained that in one of my replies to you and I'm not going to say it all again now. Review my other reply for a full explanation. I did not mean any offense to anyone here, including you, I simply meant to say that I don't know any of you (except Phil but he hadn't jumped in yet at that p |
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