Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2005
Water for strays in winter?
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Ajanta - 22 Nov 2005 18:23 GMT I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season when we would gone for about 10 days.
A friend is willing to come every 1-2 days and put out dry food just outside the door.
However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures are below freezing?
whitershadeofpale - 22 Nov 2005 19:02 GMT > I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? don't worry, if it's below freezing there won't be any cat to even feed
whitershadeofpale - 22 Nov 2005 19:09 GMT > don't worry, if it's below freezing there won't be any cat to even feed just messing! I don't know how cold a cat can stand it, I figure freezing is peaking.
do you know where the stray goes when it leaves each day?
If it hangs around, maybe there's a place where she can get warm, I picked up a huge sturdy carboard box today...(Ill mail it to you...lol)
You can live it in too if you need to
DW - 22 Nov 2005 22:28 GMT > don't worry, if it's below freezing there won't be any cat to even feed Wrong. That cat is still around despite the freezing temeperatures.
Look outside in the middle of February after a blizzard. You'll see lots of cat tracks in the snow. The cat is still around, it's probably hiding under the hood of a car (on a warm engine), in your garage, over a heating grate, etc. Just like homeless humans, homeless cats don't just disappear when the weather gets cold.
DW - 22 Nov 2005 22:36 GMT One thing I would point out about strays. It is dangerous for cats to be outside when the temperature gets below zero and the winds kick up (especially when you have a wind chill of 60 below zero).
At a minimum they need shelter from a biting howling wind out of the North (a Montreal Express).
whitershadeofpale - 22 Nov 2005 22:36 GMT > under the hood of a car (on a warm engine), in your garage, over a > heating grate, etc. Just like homeless humans, homeless cats don't > just disappear when the weather gets cold. no...what you see are the survivors what you don't see are the cats hunkered down and frozen under some dank bitter cold house.
You wouldn't see that
could you live under a house in freezing temps...yeah for a couple of days
why are we having this conversation
No More Retail - 23 Nov 2005 17:21 GMT http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pets_coldweathertips
KG - 23 Nov 2005 23:41 GMT It doesn't usually get that cold were I am at but I have an old plastic dog house like the big gray ones you can get at wal-mart.
I cut a piece of wood the same size as the floor and put 1 inch tall dowel rods in all 4 corners. then I cut another piece of wood from a peg board an mounted on top of that. Inside it I coiled one of those heat tapes for pipes.
It keeps it just warm enough for pets outdoors. I put a small bowl of food and water in there. It hasn't gotten cold enough for me to tell yet if the water will freeze in there or not. But cats love it. :)
>> I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season >> when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > don't worry, if it's below freezing there won't be any cat to even feed whitershadeofpale - 24 Nov 2005 00:05 GMT >Inside it I coiled one of those heat tapes for > pipes. That's a good idea.
KG - 24 Nov 2005 00:53 GMT Actually my dad thought of it. They don't get very hot but do put out enough to give them some warmth. The holes in the peg board let the heat through to them as it rises.
All 4 of them get up in there and cuddle up. Looks like a mass of tribbles from star trek.
>>Inside it I coiled one of those heat tapes for >> pipes. > > That's a good idea. -L. - 22 Nov 2005 19:05 GMT > I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? There are heating elements you can plug in and put into the water dish for just this reason. Search any feed supply store, pet store or the Drs. Smith and Foster website and you should be able to find one. -L.
tomsmith@____no____.com - 22 Nov 2005 19:47 GMT >I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season >when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures >are below freezing? As always, I can see that a person can not get any help on this newsgroup, only sarcastic remarks from a bunch of people who think their sh.t is better than everyone elses.
So, here is some actual help. I am a farmer and have barn cats, so I know all about this.
You can buy heated pet bowls at pet stores and farm supply stores. They are around $20. It's a bowl with a cord on it. Just plug it in and fill with water. The heating element is built into the bowl. They draw about 40 watts so they wont run your electric bill way up. I recommend the larger ones intended for dogs, rather than the smaller cat ones, especially if there is more than one cat. The bigger ones dont get tipped...
You should provide shelter for the cats. Use a dog house, wooden box, even a cardboard box (but cardboard dont last long). Better yet, if you have a shed or garage, put a cat door on it. Cats do not need to live in a heated house. They grow fur according to the weather if they live outdoors. You DO NOT want to toss an indoor cat outdoors in winter because they did not grow a winter coat, but if they live outdoors all the time, they do just fine as long as they have shelter food and water.
It's nice to put old blankets or any clothing in their shelters. Be sure to point the entrance of the shelter to the south-east. The winds from the north and west are the ones that are the strongest and coldest. Farmers always point their livestock shelters to the south-east too.
On the most severe days of winter, I like to put an old heating pad under the blankets. Plug it in, and turn it on low. I used to cage the cats and bring them in the house during the severe cold, but found that they quickly adapt to the heat and then they find it difficult to go back outdoors. I can not permanemtly keep cats in the house, due to allergies, which is why I caged them to keep them confined to one part of the house. But I now find it's better they just stay outdoors. One advantage for barn cats, they have livestock to keep them warm, and often find them sitting on the backs of cattle and horses.
Thanks for caring for the strays.
This message out to give all the goodie-goodie flamers something to flame..... My plonk button is ready !!!!
cybercat - 22 Nov 2005 20:33 GMT Tom Smith wrote:
> You can buy heated pet bowls at pet stores and farm supply stores. > They are around $20. It's a bowl with a cord on it. Just plug it in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cat ones, especially if there is more than one cat. The bigger ones > dont get tipped... This sounds like a great idea, and much safer than the bowls with exposed heating elements. I wonder if there are any battery-powered ones for places without electrical outlets?
tomsmith@____no____.com - 23 Nov 2005 01:16 GMT >Tom Smith wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >exposed heating elements. I wonder if there are any battery-powered >ones for places without electrical outlets? Here's some info....
You can order the heated bowls online from ValleyVet.com
Here is the direct link to the bowls (below) I have this first one on the list. It's on sale right now for $19.95 and free shipping. Durable, works well, and dont tip over They are 50 watt.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c291-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
Here's another one. Similar but stainless steel and costs more. I think plastic is better since steel will lose heat faster, sitting on the cold ground.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07c1a-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
I am not advertising for Valley Vet, but I have been a satisfied customer. Just dont get on their email list unless you want ads almost daily. They did remove my email address without any hassle though. They ship quickly and have lots of other goods.
PS. They make smaller versions of these heated bowls but they are too small if you ask me. They also make large ones (more like pails) for horses.
No, I dont think you can get battery operated ones. Anything that heats with electricity needs alot of power. You'd be changing batteries several times a day.
Cost to operate: Running it 24 hours a day uses 1.2 KWH If your electric cost per KWH is 10 cents (sort of an average), it will cost you 12 cents a day to run this thing. ($3.60 per month).
I wish my livestock tanks were that cheap, they cost me 15 cents per HOUR per heater and I run 6 of them, which would cost $21.60 per day to run them all. (except I get an agriculture rate for electric, but its still about $15 a day). Those January electric bills are a killer.
Tom
cybercat - 23 Nov 2005 02:13 GMT > Here's some info.... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Durable, works well, and dont tip over > They are 50 watt. http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=2e87c291-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
> Here's another one. Similar but stainless steel and costs more. I > think plastic is better since steel will lose heat faster, sitting on > the cold ground. http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07c1a-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5
Good to know, Tom. I bookmarked the web site.
> I wish my livestock tanks were that cheap, they cost me 15 cents per > HOUR per heater and I run 6 of them, which would cost $21.60 per day > to run them all. (except I get an agriculture rate for electric, but > its still about $15 a day). Those January electric bills are a > killer. Do you have barn cats? I am just curious.
tomsmith@____no____.com - 23 Nov 2005 04:04 GMT >> Here's some info.... >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Do you have barn cats? I am just curious. Yes, 11 barn cats who are fed cat food each day and still prefer eating pelletized horse feed, (with the horses), and even whole oats. I dont understand that, but if they like it, let them eat it... The horses dont seem to mind, except one pony that I have seen pin his ears and chase the cats. (they avoid him now). The cats are always watered and in severe cold they get the their choice of an igloo dog house with straw on the floor, the hay shed, or in the barn with the horses and cattle. I will have to get some pics of the cats sitting on horses. The cattle are not as tolerant of them.
By the way, cats can stay quite warm in hay sheds. They crawl into gaps between the bales. Of course not everyone has a hayshed.
Valley Vet has almost everything for animals, and are easy to work with too.
Tom
Upscale - 22 Nov 2005 21:43 GMT <tomsmith@____no____.com> wrote in message
> outdoors. One advantage for barn cats, they have livestock to keep > them warm, and often find them sitting on the backs of cattle and > horses. I've love to see a picture or two of that.
Willow - 22 Nov 2005 21:53 GMT I don't have pictures.. but I've seen it in my Dad's barn.. cutest thing too..
 Signature Will~
"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."
Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.
> <tomsmith@____no____.com> wrote in message > > outdoors. One advantage for barn cats, they have livestock to keep > > them warm, and often find them sitting on the backs of cattle and > > horses. > > I've love to see a picture or two of that. Spot - 22 Nov 2005 23:07 GMT We had an old duck years ago who decided it was bunking with the collie dog for the winter. We would go to feed the dog and find the duck snuggled up right beside it in the box.
Celeste
>I don't have pictures.. but I've seen it in my Dad's barn.. cutest thing > too.. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> I've love to see a picture or two of that. carola - 23 Nov 2005 02:21 GMT : We had an old duck years ago who decided it was bunking with the collie dog : for the winter. We would go to feed the dog and find the duck snuggled up : right beside it in the box. : : Celeste I had a dwarf rabbit that loved to sit on the Shetland pony's back in winter. He climbed up on the hay rack and then jumped. The pony didn't mind at all. The other rabbit ate the tail ...
carola
Upscale - 23 Nov 2005 10:34 GMT "Spot" <noSPAMme@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> We had an old duck years ago who decided it was bunking with the collie dog > for the winter. We would go to feed the dog and find the duck snuggled up > right beside it in the box. For anyone interested, I've just posted a picture to alt.binaries.test of an ape cuddling a cat.
Snittens - 22 Nov 2005 21:54 GMT > As always, I can see that a person can not get any help on this > newsgroup, only sarcastic remarks from a bunch of people who think > their sh.t is better than everyone elses. Huh? I didn't see any sarcastic remarks.
When I was trying to trap my cat that got out, I used those microwavable discs from Fosters & Smith. Those might keep water from freezing, if you set a bowl on top. They need to be reheated every twelve hours.
 Signature -Kelly
Brigitte - 23 Nov 2005 15:26 GMT > > As always, I can see that a person can not get any help on this > > newsgroup, only sarcastic remarks from a bunch of people who think > > their sh.t is better than everyone elses. > > Huh? I didn't see any sarcastic remarks. I didn't see it either. Perhaps we have the culprit killfiled. :)
Brigitte
whitershadeofpale - 22 Nov 2005 22:00 GMT > snip...One advantage for barn cats, they have livestock to keep > them warm, and often find them sitting on the backs of cattle and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This message out to give all the goodie-goodie flamers something to > flame..... My plonk button is ready !!!! exactly how cold you reckon a cat can stand it
i gave her my honest opinion yo! I was the only who posted when you made your post.
Soooo....
Zaire's sno way eh khat will live in freezing temperatchures.
vet of cooors he can findz a hol to heat but dham chez vworry ah freezing watear, Im, Vwat aabout thawing out the khat.
DW - 22 Nov 2005 23:11 GMT > exactly how cold you reckon a cat can stand it Around here when it gets into the single numbers or below zero they warn people to keep their pets inside.
When it gets below zero exposed flesh on a person can suffer frostbite in a matter of seconds. I would assume the same for your cat.
Ajanta - 23 Nov 2005 05:39 GMT : As always, I can see that a person can not get any help on this : newsgroup, only sarcastic remarks... As an old user of ng's I know they have always been like that. Good thing is, it is pretty easy to filter out the noise and focus on good informative posts. Yours is certainly one of the most helpful. Thank you for all the info in this post as well as in others.
I will definitely get a water bowl and rig up a temprary shelter in my absence. When I return I intend to instal cat doors and give her access to my heated apartment when she desires it.
I don't have a barn but can see why that would be a better solution for you as well as for the animals. Your anecdotes of cats with horses, ponies, and cattle are wonderful, it would be good to see the pics whenever you can get them.
: You can buy heated pet bowls at pet stores and farm supply stores. : They are around $20. It's a bowl with a cord on it. Just plug it in [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] : This message out to give all the goodie-goodie flamers something to : flame..... My plonk button is ready !!!! tomsmith@____no____.com - 23 Nov 2005 13:25 GMT >As an old user of ng's I know they have always been like that. Good >thing is, it is pretty easy to filter out the noise and focus on good >informative posts. Yours is certainly one of the most helpful. Thank >you for all the info in this post as well as in others. You are very welcome. I do filter out the junk. Like you said, NGs in general can be difficult. I have used them for years too. For some reason the pet related groups seem to be some of the worse though. The computer repair groups have the least troubles. ????
>I will definitely get a water bowl and rig up a temprary shelter in my >absence. When I return I intend to instal cat doors and give her access >to my heated apartment when she desires it. Sounds good. Thats a good deal on those bowls at Valley vet since the shipping is free. But maybe you can find one locally too. If you are worried about getting it in time from V.V. I usually get my orders in 2 to 3 days. I noticed in another post you said you dont have electric nearby. Because this is a 50 watt device (low power load), you could run a 100 foot extension cord and still have enough power left to decorate the cat house with christmas lites. :) I have to often do things like this on the farm. I try to string the cords thru trees if I can. Otherwise lay it one the ground, put duct tape around the connecttion and place a board under it, and a welcome mat on top plus a few rocks for weight.
>I don't have a barn but can see why that would be a better solution for >you as well as for the animals. Your anecdotes of cats with horses, >ponies, and cattle are wonderful, it would be good to see the pics >whenever you can get them. Its amazing how much heat livestock put out. I tend to seal the barn as best I can in winter. It gets a little smelly, but they stay warm. The cats know where the horses are and they get along well. One horse loves cats and likes to lick them and play with them. She did have to learn a lesson when I first got her and she thought a cats tail was something to groom with her teeth (horses groom other horses that way). Well, the cat was not impressed and clawed her nose. That didnt happen again. The same horse decided to do the same to my arm too. I let out a yell and that stopped real quick. (She's a young horse.)
I will see what I can do for pictures.
Time to feed the herd.
Tom
carola - 23 Nov 2005 15:53 GMT : >As an old user of ng's I know they have always been like that. Good : >thing is, it is pretty easy to filter out the noise and focus on good [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : some reason the pet related groups seem to be some of the worse : though. The computer repair groups have the least troubles. ???? OK ... but their language is double Dutch at times ...
carola
Kiran - 23 Nov 2005 20:31 GMT : Thats a good deal on those bowls at Valley vet since the shipping : is free. Shipping at valley vet is free only if your order totals $50+. Maybe old established customers get a special deal?
BTW, if you filled that bowl and kept it plugged, how long would it be before all water evaporated?
tomsmith@____no____.com - 24 Nov 2005 04:01 GMT >: Thats a good deal on those bowls at Valley vet since the shipping >: is free. > >Shipping at valley vet is free only if your order totals $50+. Maybe >old established customers get a special deal? The ad for that bowl said free shipping, but you might be correct. My orders are always well over $50
>BTW, if you filled that bowl and kept it plugged, how long would >it be before all water evaporated? I have never had it evaporate that I know of (since the cats drink it, it's hard to know). I check it daily and generally fill it every other day in winter since the cats tend to drink out of livestock tanks too. The water does not get "HOT", it just keeps it from freezing. On the coldest nights it gets a little skin of ice but the cats can still drink. Thats whem I fill it with hot tap water to help keep it thawed. Even my livestock tanks get a skin of ice at those times, and they have 1500 watts of power inside. But a skin is better than frozen solid. 100 gallons of soild ice really sucks, and it has happened when a breaker blew or something gets unplugged. One horse things it's fun to take the heater out of the water. That really ticks me off.
Tom
whitershadeofpale - 24 Nov 2005 06:26 GMT >Thats whem I fill it with hot tap water to help > keep it thawed. > Tom you know hot water freezes faster than cold
Sounds like you have a full life going on there. I would really like to have some cattle and horses.
A friend and me was talking while driving. She goes on about condos and big city living... just then, we pass a beautiful ranch...complete with horses and cattle...fences and barns...
All the talk about city life went right out the window!
You can always eat when you have a farm. You can always make money when you have land. Fresh veggies, fresh eggs, bacon, ...
Phil P. - 22 Nov 2005 20:16 GMT > I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? Try a heated water bowl- some are thermostatically controlled to go on only when the temp drops below 40F. http://tinyurl.com/8wltb
Just remember, heated water evaporates much more quickly in cold temps, so be sure to get a large bowl- at least 1- 1.5 gallon.
Phil
carola - 23 Nov 2005 02:31 GMT : > I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season : > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : : Phil The easiest thing would be to fill the bowl with lukewarm water, and of course to remove the ice every day. You might need a second bowl if the ice gets too thick. Don't use plastic, it bursts. I use old pans for my outdoor rabbits. And of course I put them into the sun.
carola
Willow - 23 Nov 2005 16:05 GMT It depends what kind of cold you're talking about..
Back home (in Quebec) boiling water freeze over in about an hour.. if even that much..
 Signature Will~
"... so that's how liberty ends, in a round of applause."
Queen Amidala, The revenge of the Syth.
> : > I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > : > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > carola Karin Gillette - 22 Nov 2005 20:41 GMT Tom has a good point. Where does the cat go at night? If it doesn't get below freezing for long periods then the water should thaw enough for them to get a drink during the day. We have chickens and put out a big water and it melts some most days if the temp doesn't stay below freezing 24/7. Not sure where you are at.
Also as long as they have been outdoor cats they have figured out a place to sleep that is protected. I too would advise more than a cardboard box. If the wind normally blows from one direction I would definitely put it somewhere away from the direct wind.
> I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? DW - 22 Nov 2005 23:19 GMT > Tom has a good point. Where does the cat go at night? If it doesn't get > below freezing for long periods then the water should thaw enough for them > to get a drink during the day. It should be pointed out around here it can and does go below freezing as early as the middle of November and sometimes will stay below freezing for 4-12 weeks.
Last year we had close to two months where it never went above ten degrees during the day.
[it was bad news for our cats but it is good news for our Super Bowl winning Patriots.....you know what.....somehow that label never gets old.]
Ajanta - 23 Nov 2005 05:28 GMT : Tom has a good point. Where does the cat go at night? I feed her everyday, so she relies on me and I must arrange for her food and water.
As for shelter, she lives in 7-8 interconnected backyards and I have not been able to figure out where she goes once she leaves my home. She could have spots in basements, sheds etc. But then they may not be warm enough, or her path could be blocked in a snow storm. So, lacking precise information, I want to rig up an option for her while I am away.
Unfortunately, the best spot for this shelter, which is protected from winds, rain etc., has no functioning electrical outlet. So I have to separate her shelter from her food and water station, but that is a small detail compared to making sure she has all essentials somewhere.
: If it doesn't get below freezing for long periods then the water should : thaw enough for them to get a drink during the day... When I am here, I look at the day and react accordingly. However, this planning is for Christmas - New Year when I don't know what weather will be like and I'll be out of town.
So, I hope for the best and plan for the worst. :-)
Spot - 22 Nov 2005 23:07 GMT You can buy at pet supply stores heated water bowls. I don't know what kind of temperatures you are talking here so I'm not sure it if would stay completely thawed. You would still have to have someone top off the water every day or so but at least it wouldn't freeze solid.
Celeste
>I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? whayface - 23 Nov 2005 00:14 GMT >I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season >when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures >are below freezing? There are electric heated water container for outdoor use that you can buy. Tractor Supply Corporation sells them in Michigan USA. I have one plugged in under porch along with a pile of dryed leaves, an old pillow and a comforter so the strays can pick what to sleep on. I also keep a container of dry food at all times plus a can of wet food daily during the day when it is warm enough so it does not freeze.
Only problem is that during the coldest winter months the canned food freezes and the birds find the dry food and pig out on so it is kind of hard to keep food out for the cats!!
edie humperdink - 24 Nov 2005 07:34 GMT don't worry, cats can chew on ice. how do you think cougars survive in the mountains?
J King - 24 Nov 2005 00:22 GMT Check out this site.
http://www.pacthumanesociety.org/core/WinterShelter.htm
Nothing there about water but some great ideas for strays.
Joanne
>I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? rpl - 24 Nov 2005 02:29 GMT re: the "wet cat" problem... disposable diapers ?... you'd have to cut the elastic off of course to flatten it out, but that on top of one of those heat-reflective blankets might work...
I'd do it just for the looks I'd get when I brought a box of Pampers to the cashier "for my cat".
pat
axel@white-eagle.invalid.uk - 25 Nov 2005 17:20 GMT In alt.pets.cats Ajanta <ajanta@null.void> wrote:
> I am brainstorming how to assist my stray during the holidays season > when we would gone for about 10 days.
> A friend is willing to come every 1-2 days and put out dry food just > outside the door.
> However, I can't figure out what to do about water if the temperatures > are below freezing? For years my mother had a large dog kennel... no dog... but it provided a welcome refuge for cats. When the latest member joined the household he was found perching on top of the kennel, but during the summer he would run into the kennel but turn around waiting his food, almost as if he were on an army parade ground.
He has a slight infection which he keeps scratching at, but the vet said it should stop soon especially after an injection that he administered. We asked if his (the cat's not the vet's) claws should be trimmed and he said there was no reason unless the cat was damaging the furniture.
Axel
Sara - 27 Nov 2005 00:21 GMT Garden centers sometimes sell a device called a "bird bath warmer" that will keep water in the bird bath from freezing. I use one of those - I have an old bird bath bowl that I put directly on the ground in the garden. The warmer plugs into your house current and I think it draws about as much power as a night light.
For shelters, I use a "box within a box." The outer box is an inexpensive plastic storage box that you can get at any discount store. Inside is a cardboard box. I put styrofoam panels between the boxes for an insulating layer, and put straw or hay in the inner box. Of course you need to cut holes for kitty to get in and out! Put them on the long side, at an end, so kitty can scrunch down in the protected part. I put my kitty shelters under my deck, oriented so the wind can't get in. Hope this helps.
Beth M. - 27 Nov 2005 18:32 GMT www.drsfostersmith.com has the before mentioned bird bath warmer, they also sell a dog bowl for water that plugs in so it does not freeze
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