Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / December 2005
Cat on a diet
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minerva.phoenix@gmail.com - 21 Nov 2005 22:24 GMT Hi All,
My cat weighs 12.8 pounds and needs to loose 1 more pound. He started off with 14 pounds and has done an amazing progress in the last couple of months. I feed him 1/2 cup of Purina Cat Chow Dry Cat Food Indoor Formula (1/2 * 390 = 195 kcal). But, in the last weeks he has stopped loosing weight, although nothing has changed. Also, he has been complaining a lot more - it is really hard to ignore him since he is a very vocal siamese. So much that I felt guilty and gave him small treats (little tiny bits of chicken) to him during the weekend. The treats are so small that I wonder if this has any effect.
So, I wonder what can I do to make him loose this final pound without driving me crazy. (why the last one is so hard?) I thought of substituing the food by a lighter food or by wet canned food. I am not sure what is best. Any suggestions?
Minerva
5cats - 21 Nov 2005 23:10 GMT wrote:
> Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Minerva My chubby guy has been doing better on a canned "light" food than he did on a dry "reducing" diet. In part, it seems to be because we've gone to a 2 meals a day routine instead of him having access to food all day long. Also, something just seems a bit more satisfying about the canned stuff. He's lost 2 pounds in slightly more than 2 months, 1.5 pounds to go.
treeline12345@yahoo.com - 22 Nov 2005 06:06 GMT > > My cat weighs 12.8 pounds and needs to loose 1 more pound. He started > > off with 14 pounds and has done an amazing progress in the last couple [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > treats (little tiny bits of chicken) to him during the weekend. The > > treats are so small that I wonder if this has any effect. How many kilocalories are in the treats? He cannot lose any weight because you have achieved metabolic balance
:) To lose weight, you would have to give less kilocalories. Actually, I'm just half joking here. Are you sure he is not losing a little bit? If he lost an ounce in a week, you would still achieve weight loss, but at a superb gentle amount. A pound over 3-4 months. I'll give you a for instance, my 11 pound cat at 160-180 kcals will maintain and possibly gain. Lack of exercise complicates matters. You may want to try some wet food. My cat also complains a lot.
You might want to talk to a vet. There are Rx weight reducing foods which bulk up a bit with fiber. Wait and see if this is really a plateau. Are you using an accurate scale?
You cat's metabolism may also be adjusting to the reduced kilocalories. It's sometimes not as simple as it sounds. A good vet if you can find one should help you out here.
> My chubby guy has been doing better on a canned "light" food than he did > on a dry "reducing" diet. In part, it seems to be because we've gone to a > 2 meals a day routine instead of him having access to food all day long. What "light" food are you reducing your cat with?
treeline12345@yahoo.com - 22 Nov 2005 06:25 GMT Here's something Phil P. posted which is more accurate, after I bugged him. The DER refers to Daily Energy Requirements. [whatever that is, using texts I get a wild range from 140 to 210 kcals depending on the author] There are formulas or formulae - I got some from Science Diet but the below should work. It's amazing but cats and people will adjust their metabolism downwards and it makes dieting tricky. Think winter and hibernation. It can also make it dangerous if not careful [actually hyperlipidemia or the cat's liver can't handle fat that's loose now]. Think thyroid malfunction or hypothyroidism if too fast a dieting or too little food in humans. Sometimes life is simple and sometime it ain't.
"I'll give you two solutions to your problem and let you choose the one that's more complicated:
Plan #1: Reduce your cat's daily caloric intake by 25% until her weight plateaus. When the reduced caloric intake becomes her maintenance diet, reduce her daily caloric intake by an additional 10% until she plateaus again. Follow the same reduce/plateau/reduce/plateau pattern in 10% increments until she reaches her target weight. Do not allow her to lose more than one pound every four weeks. If she begins losing more than 1# a month, increase her daily caloric intake by 5%-10% or as much as necessary to slow her weight loss to 1#/4 weeks. [one pound loss in 4 weeks]
Plan #2: This is a sliding target weight, stepwise plan: If she weighs 11#, set her target weight at 9# and feed her the DER for a 9# cat. When she reaches the target weight of #9 she should plateau, then set a new target weight of 7# or whatever weight that will place her in BCS 5. Again, don't set target weights that will result in a loss of more than 1#/4 weeks.
I said no more than 1% a week or 1# every 4 weeks whichever is less. Phil P."
Thanks, Phil, you're a gem :)
Phil P. - 22 Nov 2005 15:56 GMT > Here's something Phil P. posted which is more accurate, after I bugged > him. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Thanks, Phil, you're a gem :) I forgot to add, don't reduce the cat's total daily caloric intake by more than 25% of the cat's DER at one time. Most commercial diets are designed to contain a small/moderate excess of each nutrient for safety. If you restrict caloric intake by more than 25% of the cat's DER you might exceed the safety margin which could create nutrient deficiencies.
Phil
scullycat - 22 Dec 2005 01:14 GMT How do you weigh your cats? Mine was 9 lbs. a few months ago; but she seems heavier now. She doesn't exercise much. She was sitting in a shelter for 2 yrs. when I got her. She is only 2 and a half now. I have always given my cats acess to dry food all day and I'm a bit afraid to restrict as I have never done it before; but I also have never had a chubby cat before either. I cant afford to take her to the vet every month just to weigh her, any ideas would be appreciated. thanks
> Here's something Phil P. posted which is more accurate, after I bugged > him. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Thanks, Phil, you're a gem :) 5cats - 22 Dec 2005 02:48 GMT > How do you weigh your cats? Mine was 9 lbs. a few months ago; but she > seems heavier now. She doesn't exercise much. She was sitting in a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the vet every month just to weigh her, any ideas would be appreciated. > thanks The vet shouldn't charge for a just a weigh-in.
But when one of my cats was very ill I wanted to weight her every day, so I got a package postage scale off ebay.(MyWeigh is the brand) It doesn't have the nice tray like a baby/vet scale, but it was half the price of one of those and I use it for shipping stuff sometimes, too. I zero the scale with cat carrier on it, then put the cat in the carrier, then weight the cat inside the carrier. The cats are really used being in the carriers now so they go along with the routine without any fuss.
It's really great for monitoring the big guy's diet now.
With just one cat you should be able to control her intake by giving her a measured amount of food every day. You can put it out all at once and let her nibble as she wants, or spoon it out gradually over the course of a day.
5cats - 22 Nov 2005 15:46 GMT >> My chubby guy has been doing better on a canned "light" food than he >> did on a dry "reducing" diet. In part, it seems to be because we've >> gone to a 2 meals a day routine instead of him having access to food >> all day long. > > What "light" food are you reducing your cat with? Science Diet Light for dinner and about 1/4 can SD Senior Chicken for breakfast.
minerva.phoenix@gmail.com - 22 Nov 2005 16:27 GMT I did an extensive search in this discussion group and found some very useful messages from Phil. In fact, I based the first reduction on the dry food on his formulas. But, this text on the plateau issue, I had not seen. Thank you for pasting it.
I do believe that the winter might have some to do with it since he has been looking for warm places most frequently. But, maybe the fact that he is getting closer to his ideal weight is also having an effect. It may be easier for a 20lbs cat to loose 1 lb than for an 11 lb cat. For a lighter cat 1 lb it represents a higher percentage of his body weight, right? This is only a hypothesis, of course.
I am not using a very accurate scale. I am using a regular digital Tanita. I have tested it with bags of litter weighing similarly to my cat and it seems accurate, but I would not bet my life on it. I actually weigh him in pounds and kilos and do as many measures as he allows me. My intention is not to track every ounce. I am interested to see a decrease over time in a rate that is not too dangerous. So, I keep a chart (using excel) of his progress. He actually lost 2 pounds since August. This is not bad, uh. It basically means he is loosing 0.5 lb per month. It way below the recommended!
Anyway, yesterday we changed him to wet food. I am thinking of giving half of the larger can (~75-95kcal) and a little bit of the dry food in the morning (~70Kcal ). He seemed more satisfied . Funny, because in terms of calories this meant he is eating less calories. He is also in a better mood because wet food used to be a special food for him. It is too soon to draw any conclusions, but I am optimistic.
Concerning the treats, they basically consists of 1-3 tiny bits of chicken (the size of the little balls of the dry food) Saturday morning and one table spoon of milk that he adores (although I know that is not exactly good for him!) once or twice a week. I keep wondering how much is this compromising his diet. Anyway, I will stop giving him these for now.
Thank you for the suggestions!
Minerva
Phil P. - 23 Nov 2005 09:10 GMT >Concerning the treats, they basically consists of 1-3 tiny bits of chicken (the size of the little balls of the dry food) Saturday morning and one table spoon of milk that he adores (although I know that is not exactly good for him!) once or twice a week. I keep wondering how much is this compromising his diet. Anyway, I will stop giving him these for
>now. There's nothing wrong with giving him treats as long as they don't comprise more than 10% of his daily caloric intake. Just be sure to include treat calories in his daily caloric allowance.
Good luck,
Phil.
treeline12345@yahoo.com - 23 Nov 2005 11:28 GMT > I did an extensive search in this discussion group and found some very > useful messages from Phil. In fact, I based the first reduction on the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a lighter cat 1 lb it represents a higher percentage of his body > weight, right? This is only a hypothesis, of course. Don't know. Could work either way depending on metabolism. The trick is to lose the fat and not the muscle. Another reason to go slowly. Muscle burns up fat and keep metabolism faster so not good to lose too much muscle. Some can be lost. If it's winter, then likely not exercising as much so easier to go into low metabolic rate. It's tricky stuff.
> I am not using a very accurate scale. I am using a regular digital > Tanita. I have tested it with bags of litter weighing similarly to my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > actually lost 2 pounds since August. This is not bad, uh. It basically > means he is loosing 0.5 lb per month. It way below the recommended! Tanita makes durable and accurate in their range. I have found a postal scale that sells for $20 to $40. It's called UltraShip 35 by My Weigh [not DigiWeigh which is not so good]. This scale has some outstanding features.
1. It can be calibrated. This is a sign of a good scale. And one review said the scale is accurate over its entire range. By calibration, I mean you put a special standardized 10 kilogram weight on the scale and press special buttons that tell the scale to realize that a genuine 10 kilogram weight better say 10 kilograms on the scale. These weights are special, and probably around $20 themselves but a professional scale store has these and might calibrate the scale as a favor. Generally scales do not need calibration but with temperature and altitude, they can. A scale at 3000 feet will weigh a little less :)
2. It can weigh up to 35 pounds at either 0.2 ounces or 5 grams. There are versions that go to 55 pounds and 75 pounds but they weigh only to 10 grams or 0.5 ounces. That's not bad if you need a shipping scale to 75 pounds. Can all be used for postal letters since goes to 0.1 ounce accuracy for first 2 pounds.
3. Detachable faceplate so can put a large tray on the scale for the cat and hope it does not tip over or whatever, not that it would matter too much. Also has a fairly long HOLD button so with the controls a couple of feet away, when the cat is on the scale, hit the HOLD button and record the weighing.
How accurate is 0.2 pounds or 5 grams? In pounds only, that's .0125 pounds which is mighty accurate. Most bathroom scales are 10 to 20 times less accurate. 5 grams is around .011 pounds. That's a little more than 1/100th of a pound for accuracy if using the kilogram scale on the scale.
But, I have not purchased this scale yet. But it's the best specs so far for price and accuracy that I have found. The same company makes a kitchen scale that weighs 1 gram to 15.4 pounds or 7 kgs. But there is no detachable faceplate and the HOLD button works for a very short time, seconds. But this scale, the 7001DX is tempting. 1 gram / 453.59237 grams [makes one pound exactly] is a little more than .002 of a pound. Now that's what I call accurate.
In fact, that's 100 times more accurate than most bathroom scales.
Bathroom scales usually do 0.2 pounds accuracy. This is 0.002 pounds accuracy. 100 times better.
This company also makes 2 shipping scales, well, foot square platform, that weigh to 150 pounds/300 pounds at .05/0.1 pounds or 20/50 grams, with a long corded remote display. That would seem best for me and the cat but it's getting near the price of an animal scale, from $75 to over $100. Called the HD-150 or HD-300 by MyWeigh.com. With this scale I could weigh myself with or without holding the cat and be accurate to 0.05 pounds or 20 grams which is better than any bathroom scale and equal or better than many medical scales for precision and consistency and the scale can be attached to a computer. Not sure it is Excel compatible but it works with UPS and USPS.
I used a Conair scale, with 0.1 pound increments, and tried to gauge it consistency with a concrete brick, not too bad, but still a tad inconsistent. I returned the scale. Not bad, had 10 memories, but why is it so difficult to get a scale that is consistent and accurate? Probably why it's so hard to find good medical or vet advice.
Easiest was to hold the cat and weigh her with me on the scale. Getting her onto a little scale by itself is awkward. Maybe a biggish platform or shipping scale might be not so difficult.
A scale is needed. I'll try to get one of these scales and report back later if it is as good as I seem to think it might be.
Tanita makes good baby scales or little animal scales but they run over $100. Not as accurate as the scale I mentioned but more accurate possibly because the Tanita scale probably has professional dampening mechanisms for when the cat is moving on the scale. So give a little, take a little. What good is .002 pounds accuracy if the cat is moving? Not much I would guess.
> Anyway, yesterday we changed him to wet food. I am thinking of giving > half of the larger can (~75-95kcal) and a little bit of the dry food in > the morning (~70Kcal ). He seemed more satisfied . Funny, because in > terms of calories this meant he is eating less calories. He is also in > a better mood because wet food used to be a special food for him. It is > too soon to draw any conclusions, but I am optimistic. There are scientific studies that the types of calories can matter. One showed that fluffy white sugary stuff want straight to make fat on the tummy of people than other types of calories. My cat seems more satisfied on wet food too. She cannot get enough of the dry kibble, just eats and eats. If I put out wet food, she does not bug me as much. Wet food might seem more like a mousey or something. I try to put out good quality wet food with low phosphorus, < 0.80% dry matter basis. Now and then I put out Wysong which has a pure turkey or chicken, very low phosphorus, but has no added vitamins or anything, so need to be careful that the dry kibble provides the extra nutrition. This Wysong is not going to meet any vet standards for food. But it's easier than cooking a piece of chicken. I found Science Diet which has good specs and some Fancy Feast, 3 or so, that have good specs. But the other 55 Fancy Feasts you can keep, too high in phosphorus which is indicated in renal failure.
It's not easy getting the cat down in weight. I need to get more strict.
> Concerning the treats, they basically consists of 1-3 tiny bits of > chicken (the size of the little balls of the dry food) Saturday morning [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Minerva You're welcome.
5cats - 23 Nov 2005 13:17 GMT > Easiest was to hold the cat and weigh her with me on the scale. Getting > her onto a little scale by itself is awkward. Maybe a biggish platform > or shipping scale might be not so difficult. I've mentioned this before, but my tactic for weighing the cats is to use a shipping scale and weigh the cat inside the cat carrier. First, zero the scale with the empty carrier, then get the weight of cat inside carrier. My cats are used to the drill and settle down inside the carrier within a few seconds. And then they get a treat afterwards. I got some cheap 30 lb. cap. digital scale off ebay. I needed something fast and didn't have time to research what's best, but this one turned out OK, it's very consistant at least. It seems to me that for weight loss there's no issue with absolute accuracy, just so long as the the scale is consistant. The 2 cats with health issues get weighed at least once a week and the others once a month.
treeline12345@yahoo.com - 24 Nov 2005 01:45 GMT > I've mentioned this before, but my tactic for weighing the cats is to use > a shipping scale and weigh the cat inside the cat carrier. First, zero [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > consistant. The 2 cats with health issues get weighed at least once a > week and the others once a month. That 30 pound scale was the original version of the 35 pound scale I mentioned in my post if it were a My Weigh. An excellent scale, though cheap. You point about consistency is well-taken but accuracy is a nice addition. If the scale you got is the one I am thinking of, it's very accurate and consistent.
5cats - 24 Nov 2005 02:42 GMT > That 30 pound scale was the original version of the 35 pound scale I > mentioned in my post if it were a My Weigh. An excellent scale, though > cheap. You point about consistency is well-taken but accuracy is a > nice addition. If the scale you got is the one I am thinking of, it's > very accurate and consistent. Good guess on the scale, it *is* a MyWeigh LS-30. The few times I've weighed a small package for shipping and then taken the package to the post office, the weight was only about 0.1 oz. different from the PO's scale.
Phil P. - 23 Nov 2005 19:35 GMT >Concerning the treats, they basically consists of 1-3 tiny bits of chicken (the size of the little balls of the dry food) Saturday morning and one table spoon of milk that he adores (although I know that is not exactly good for him!) once or twice a week. I keep wondering how much is this compromising his diet. Anyway, I will stop giving him these for
>now. There's nothing wrong with giving him treats as long as they don't comprise more than 10% of his daily caloric intake- treats aren't balanced. Just be sure to include treat calories as part of his daily caloric allowance.
Good luck,
Phil.
minerva - 06 Dec 2005 18:22 GMT Update.
I changed his diet to canned. He seems much happier. But the weight is not coming off as easily as before. he lost only 0.1 Kg (.2 pounds) in 2 weeks. I do not think there is much I can do. If I give him less it would mean going below his needs. He is currently only eating 1 can per day ~ 140-160Kcal.
cybercat - 06 Dec 2005 18:34 GMT > Update. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would mean going below his needs. He is currently only eating 1 can per > day ~ 140-160Kcal. How are you determining how much he needs? To get my cat to lose weight I simply fed him 1/4 less than I fed her when he plateaued--on the advice of my vet, of course. For several months she was eating only five ounces of canned a day, split into two portions fed 12 hours a part. She safely lost about 9 pounds (at a rate of a bit less than a pound a month) and now I am feeding her six ounces per day. She weighs a bit less than 9 pounds at the moment, a good weight for her. *Bear in mind that I take her in every couple of months at least to have everything checked. Bear in mind also that she was diagnosed with hyperthyroid (while obese, very odd but it does happen) and was put on this diet after her hyperT was corrected with Tapazole. Meaning that her metabolism had just been slowed down considerably, which is clearly how she got along on only 5 oz of food a day.
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