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Declawing etc Illegal in Rome

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PawsForThought - 09 Nov 2005 18:12 GMT
Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
can
the city really enforce them?

By Tracy Wilkinson
Times Staff Writer

November 9, 2005

ROME ­ In the greater animal kingdom, the plight of the little
goldfish is
especially harsh. The tiny creatures are scooped into plastic bags and
awarded at carnivals and fairs. They are confined to bowls where they
can
do nothing but swim around and around. Some (it has been claimed) go
blind.

No more. The municipal government of Rome has entered waters where few
city
halls dare tread. Under a new ordinance, the city's goldfish are
entitled
to a proper, full-sized aquarium, and they can no longer be given out
as
contest prizes.

The rules were drafted by the city of Rome's Office for Animal Rights.
The
59-point statute ordering better treatment for all pets, from cats and
dogs
to birds and lizards, was approved by the City Council last month and
will
go into effect today.

The unusually strict measure is winning plaudits from animal rights
activists, snarls from pet shop owners and puzzlement from all quarters

about whether it can be enforced. City officials, though, said it was
time
to take a stand.

"We needed to send a strong message: Pets are not objects," said
Cristina
Bedini, an 11-year veteran of the animal rights office. "We are saying
that
owning a pet is a joy, but it is also a duty. Responsible ownership is
the
only way to fight cruelty."

The fish-bowl rule may win Rome a humanitarian award from the Fish
Empathy
Project of PETA, the international animal rights group, People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals.

"Rome has gone above and beyond anything we've seen anywhere else,"
spokeswoman Karin Robertson said in a telephone interview. For all
animals,
the Italian capital's new ordinance is more restrictive than anything
in
the United States, PETA said in a statement.

In addition to affording protection for fish, the measure requires dog
owners to walk their canines daily or face a $625 fine. It also bans
the
display of pets for sale in store windows, and gives legal recognition
to
Rome's famous gattare, the "cat ladies" who feed an army of strays.

Also forbidden: choke and electrical collars and, for dogs and cats,
declawing and the clipping of tails and ears for cosmetic reasons.

"Rome has taken a historic step for animal rights," said Gianluca
Felicetti, an activist with one of Italy's main animal-welfare
organizations. "It will help people to know that animals have a right
to
respect and to their ethological necessities."

Bedini and city officials met with police to discuss the ordinance and
how
to see that it is obeyed, and a team of street cops will undergo
specialized training to better understand the needs of animals. Even
police
officers frequently don't recognize animal abuse, Bedini said, and they

must be taught what constitutes mistreatment.

But Italy is a land of many laws and its own form of lawlessness. Can
police really know whether someone has given proper living quarters to
his
goldfish? And how can the frequency of dog-walking actually be
monitored?

"We have the most beautiful laws in the world, and nobody enforces
them,"
said Silvia Viviani, a retired opera soprano who co-founded the Torre
Argentina cat sanctuary, a home for some 250 strays. It is one of an
estimated 800 cat "colonies" in Rome that the new measure aims to
protect
by forbidding construction projects from displacing their feline
residents.

Despite her reservations about enforcement, Viviani praised the
statute.
She only wished it went further, to include mandatory sterilization of
cats
and dogs ­ something, she says, that is still resisted in Italy
because of
machismo.

Bedini said enforcement will rely more on education than police action.
To
catch fish-bowl violators, for example, "I don't think police will be
going
door to door."

Pet awareness is an evolving culture in Italy, she said, adding that
the
ordinance reflects a growing sensitivity among Roman citizens to the
plight
of their four-legged ­ and un-legged, finned, winged and otherwise
evolved
­ friends.

Bedini proudly notes that shelters here no longer euthanize animals. A
national law exists that criminalizes the abandoning of pets, and many
cities have their own animal-welfare regulations and officials to
enforce them.

Despite all this, many Italians who tire of pets will not hesitate to
dump
them on a roadside. Animal rights groups estimate that abandoned pets
in
Italy include 150,000 dogs and 200,000 cats.

Better care for goldfish, Bedini said, will require a change in
mentality.
Many parents like their children to play the carnival games that offer
pets
as prizes, which in turn teach them to care for living creatures. But
the
conditions are often less than desirable and the mortality rate high.

Enza Trapani, a manicurist and mother, knows the difficulties. She
bought a
goldfish for her 8-year-old son, Valerio, but it died after a couple of

weeks. A second one died after about six months. She gave up and now
has a
turtle and a cat.>>
cybercat - 09 Nov 2005 18:16 GMT
Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
can
the city really enforce them?

[snips article]

I saw this and wondered the same thing. I think it just amounts to
a "nice gesture" until there are signs that it has been enforced in some
way.

Thanks for posting this, Lauren.
bethmeryle@yahoo.com - 09 Nov 2005 18:20 GMT
> Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> can
[quoted text clipped - 144 lines]
> has a
> turtle and a cat.>>

So true about goldfish in small tanks.  I learned a few years back that
a goldfish actually  needs 10 GALLONS of water (each!).  They produce a
great deal of waste, and the water becomes toxic to them quite quickly.
-L. - 09 Nov 2005 19:01 GMT
> Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> can
> the city really enforce them?

Good for Rome.  Having a law is the first step.
-L.
whitershadeofpale - 09 Nov 2005 23:11 GMT
> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> > can
> > the city really enforce them?
>
> Good for Rome.  Having a law is the first step.
> -L.

I believe that more and more, animals will gain the protection they
need.

There are too many weirdos in the world

The odd thing is, some people kill animals as a matter of religion.
hamandcheese@betweentheknees.com - 10 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT
>> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
>> > can
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>The odd thing is, some people kill animals as a matter of religion.

I find most things done for religion odd.

-mhd
Ramboyd - 10 Nov 2005 01:01 GMT
> >> > Rules aimed at protecting animals' rights are praised by activists, but
> >> > can
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -mhd

I find most religions (make that all) odd.

Ramboyd

======

"My Ottawa Includes Corruption"
No More  Retail - 10 Nov 2005 01:58 GMT
3 things in this world  beside women that are not made to be understood
Religion
Sex
Politics
whitershadeofpale - 10 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT
...
> 3 things in this world  beside women that are not made to be understood
> Religion
> Sex
> Politics

or...

A ship at sea
A serpent on a rock
And, a man with his virgin
Phil P. - 10 Nov 2005 11:41 GMT
> I find most things done for religion odd.

Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
have been so stupid.
whitershadeofpale - 10 Nov 2005 13:35 GMT
> Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
> their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> have been so stupid.

ya but if there was no greek gods we would not have our esssquisite Nike
cybercat - 10 Nov 2005 15:32 GMT
> > I find most things done for religion odd.
>
> Just think, in 1 or 2 thousand years, the people will look back at us and
> our religions the same way we look back at the ancient Romans and Greeks and
> their religions with all their gods and goddesses and wonder how we could
> have been so stupid.

Given that religion is supposed to be a positive thing for humans,
what really gets me is violence done in the name of God. And
lest we think that Muslim extremists invented this, we can
remember what we learned in school about the Christian
Crusades of medieval times.
Ramboyd - 10 Nov 2005 15:52 GMT
> > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> remember what we learned in school about the Christian
> Crusades of medieval times.

Burning of witches
Spanish Inquisition
Killing of North and South American heathen Indians
Slavery
Protestant/Catholic confrontations.

Ramboyd

======

"My Ottawa Includes Corruption"
Phil P. - 10 Nov 2005 16:08 GMT
> > > I find most things done for religion odd.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> remember what we learned in school about the Christian
> Crusades of medieval times.

Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
cybercat - 10 Nov 2005 16:24 GMT
> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).

Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
Wendy - 10 Nov 2005 19:26 GMT
>> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
>> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>
> Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

What would you suggest as an alternative?

In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
while people are attempting to control a problem and as a result provide a
better life for the cat in the long run so I have no problem with it.

W
cybercat - 10 Nov 2005 22:57 GMT
> >> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
> >> worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What would you suggest as an alternative?

Why does the fact that it bothers me necessarily imply that I have
an alternative?

> In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
> would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
> while people are attempting to control a problem and as a result provide a
> better life for the cat in the long run so I have no problem with it.

And you are entitled to your opinion. It still really bothers me.
Wendy - 10 Nov 2005 23:49 GMT
>> >> Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea-
> they
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Why does the fact that it bothers me necessarily imply that I have
> an alternative?

Nothing - just asking if you had a better way to mark the cats who have been
neutered already.

>> In a perfect world it wouldn't be necessary and I would hope that no cat
>> would end up with a tipped ear. However, the cats ears are being tipped
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And you are entitled to your opinion. It still really bothers me.

Bothers you to see the poor kitties with tipped ears or morally bothers you?
I hate to see their beautiful ears messed with but understand the necessity
so accept it. That might have been a more accurate way to describe my
thinking on the matter.
cybercat - 10 Nov 2005 23:56 GMT
> Bothers you to see the poor kitties with tipped ears or morally bothers you?

Both, if I understand what you're asking. When I say "bothers me" I mean
"bothers me," I don't mean "it should not be done." I understand that it
is helpful to the process of neutering ferals and spays and that therefore
in its proper context the greater good is being served. However, I am
not convinced that the mutilation is *necessary.*

> I hate to see their beautiful ears messed with but understand the necessity
> so accept it. That might have been a more accurate way to describe my
> thinking on the matter.

It's a reasonable approach. I guess mine is that I just wish there were
another
way to mark them than cutting part of them off. I am not arrogant enough to
think that just because I can't think of one, nobody can, so I am not yet
convinced that it IS *necessary.*
whitershadeofpale - 11 Nov 2005 03:36 GMT
> It's a reasonable approach. I guess mine is that I just wish there were
> another
> way to mark them than cutting part of them off. I am not arrogant enough to
> think that just because I can't think of one, nobody can, so I am not yet
> convinced that it IS *necessary.*

I have to admit this is the first of heard of this.

I assume males are not tipped? is that the word?
seeing that their nuts are gone.

well, if the cat has been under the knife, (asleep)
why not use one of them chips I hear about on here.

Or some other micro implant.

I'd be willing to bet my pc that an implant is used by some.
-L. - 11 Nov 2005 05:29 GMT
> I have to admit this is the first of heard of this.
>
> I assume males are not tipped? is that the word?
> seeing that their nuts are gone.

Any neutered cat is tipped - male or female.  It's just a visual cue to
anyone who knows what it means that the cat has already been neutered.
It's a universal sign that the cat has been neutered. The very tip of
the ear is clipped off while the cat is under sedation.  It doesn't
even need suturing, the wound is so minor.

> well, if the cat has been under the knife, (asleep)
> why not use one of them chips I hear about on here.

Too expensive - and you have to be able to trap a cat to  scan it -
scanning a feral in a trap is nearly impossible.  Tipping is done for a
number of reasons - one main reason is that if there is a feral hanging
out some place that people want trapped and neutered, you can tell if
it has already been neutered just by looking at it, so you don't waste
time, energy and money re-trapping cats that have already been through
the system.

> Or some other micro implant.
>
> I'd be willing to bet my pc that an implant is used by some.

Not likely.  Chips cost a minimum iof $25 or so.  Most TTVNR (trap,
test, vaccinate, neuter, release) or TNR (trap, neuter, release)
programs are run by volunteers who pay for everything from their own
pockets or through donations, which are scarce.

What do you think is a better use of $100 - neutering 4 cats or
neutering and chipping 2?  

-L.
John Doe - 13 Nov 2005 17:11 GMT
...
> I am not arrogant

Liar.

> From: "cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Path: newsdbm04.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!news.glorb.com!x-privat.org!not-for-mail
> Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:412721

             
Phil P. - 11 Nov 2005 04:03 GMT
> > Of all the religions, only the ancient Egyptians had the right idea- they
> > worshipped the CAT! (and the cats never forgot it).
>
> Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?

Sure it bothers me. I think a large tattoo on the inside of the pinna would
be sufficiently noticeable.  Tattoos aren't popular because the registration
number becomes illegible with time and the registries change or go out of
business.  These reasons do not apply to ferals since the tattoo would only
need be
a mark to identify the cat as being neutered, vaccinated and managed. A
large "M" or even "X" tattooed on the inside of the pinna would be
sufficient and clearly visible from a distance- albeit not as noticible as
tipping.

Microchips aren't popular for ferals either because the cats must be trapped
to be scanned.

I don't agree with some of the policies of a lot of feral organizations.
Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for identifying
managed ferals.
cybercat - 11 Nov 2005 19:40 GMT
"Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote :

> > Speaking of someone who worships the cat, does the practice
> > of ear tipping bother you or am I just being overly sensitive?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Unfortunately, eartipping has become the 'accepted' policy for identifying
> managed ferals.

So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right then
cutting off the tip of the ear is indeed NOT necessary. It is, as I
suspected,
just the easiest and most expedient thing for the trappers to do. That is
what
I feared.
Wendy - 11 Nov 2005 19:53 GMT
> "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote :
>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> what
> I feared.

Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats ear
is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.
These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to try
to help the cats. Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
the ripper or something.
cybercat - 11 Nov 2005 20:47 GMT
> > So you think the pinna tattoo would work just as well as the ear tipping
> > for allowing the cats to be identified at a distance? If you're right then
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to try
> to help the cats.

I feel sure many would love to do so without cutting off part of the cats'
ears, don't you?

>Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
> the ripper or something.

That seems like a pretty dramatic interpretation of what I said above.
But to each her own.

Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that would
be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of cutting
off part of the cat's ear. That is not the same thing as saying that
rescuers
are "jack the ripper." In fact, isn't it the vet (I hope) who cuts off the
ear
tip? If the vet had a simple tool that would mark the ear indelibly and
clearly, that would be great.
5cats - 11 Nov 2005 21:06 GMT
> Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> cutting off part of the cat's ear.

Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?  
cybercat - 11 Nov 2005 21:30 GMT
> > Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> > would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> > cutting off part of the cat's ear.
>
> Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
> disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?

Disfiguring? Not in my understanding of the word. But in any case it would
be nice if the cats did not have to be cut. If you think about it, anything
that can be seen from a distance has to be *noticeable* right? <G> That is
the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without actually
trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered. The
cutting off of the tip of the ear, OR a tattoo, are actually not necessary
to the task of
spaying and neutering, they just make it easier on the people trapping the
cats. Assuming this convenience is what we are shooting for, it seems to me
that a mark is better than a cut. Better for the cat, in other words.
Phil P. - 11 Nov 2005 21:36 GMT
That is
> the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without actually
> trapping and examining the cat, if it has been spayed or neutered.

Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
control.  Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.
cybercat - 11 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT
> That is
> > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
> control.  Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.

Of course. For some reason I was thinking of a circumstance where rescuers
would place traps where they see a colony of cats without marked ears, but
they would of course be mixed in. Since as you say, traps do not
discriminate, it makes even more sense to tattoo or otherwise mark indelibly
rather than  cut off the tip of the ear.
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 00:36 GMT
> That is
> > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or remote
> control.  Whether the cat was tipped or not it could still be trapped.

Sure.  But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether or
not it is worth setting the trap at all.

Hey - if a tattoo was free and would work, I'd be all for it.  I don't
know anyone who has tried it, and I still highly doubt it is going to
serve the purpose of ID'ing the cat (x'ed or non-X'ed)  from a distance
(which is imperative for the reason stated above) and be easily seen
even when the cat is in the trap, as well as on dark cats.

If anyone has done it and it works,  please post.

The vets I worked with for TNR would in no way tatoo for free - you're
talking a set of sterile needles,  tatto ink (which isn't cheap, IIRC,
because it is sterile), resterilizing the instrument, and more time
under anesthesia - all which costs money as compared to an extra 1/4
inch slice with a scalpel.  Not to mention skill in tatooing - too deep
and it scars over, not deep enough, the ink doesn't take.  Every dollar
spent on anything other than neutering means fewer cats neutered.
Until it's a proven method, I'll stick with the tip.

-L.
Phil P. - 12 Nov 2005 12:54 GMT
> > That is
> > > the whole point, to make it easy for the trappers to know, without
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sure.  But the tipped ear *also* often tells the TNR team whether or
> not it is worth setting the trap at all.

Cutting half the tail off would serve the same purpose- .  My concern is the
*cat*- not peoples' convenience. I'd certainly rather go through the
inconvenience of trapping the cat and releasing her than having the cat
tipped.

> Hey - if a tattoo was free and would work, I'd be all for it.  I don't
> know anyone who has tried it, and I still highly doubt it is going to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The vets I worked with for TNR would in no way tatoo for free -

I didn't say "free". Remember, we're not talking about a lot of intricate
numbers- just an
"X" or "M".  You're complicating a very simple issue.

Phil
John Doe - 13 Nov 2005 17:38 GMT
> "-L." <gentleboa peacemail.com> wrote in message

>> > Traps don't discriminate- unless you're using a drop-trap or
>> > remote control.  Whether the cat was tipped or not it could
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Cutting half the tail off would serve the same purpose- .

That is silly.

>  My concern is the *cat*- not peoples' convenience.

Apparently your real concern is to appear more concerned than anyone
else about cats. You equate removing part of the ear tip with
declawing, obviously for the sole purpose of putting down your
opposition.

> I'd certainly rather go through the inconvenience of trapping the
> cat and releasing her than having the cat tipped.

You're incredibly full of yourself.

> Path: newssvr12.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm05.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:54:17 -0600
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> X-Postfilter: 1.3.32
> Xref: newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com rec.pets.cats.health+behav:413012
Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 18:59 GMT
> You're incredibly full of yourself.

You're incredibly stupid- but that's old news- everyone already knows you're
a moron- you don't have to keep proving it.
Phil P. - 11 Nov 2005 21:32 GMT
> > Personally I think it would be great if a big, distinctive tattoo that
> > would be visible from a distance and at night could be used instead of
> > cutting off part of the cat's ear.
>
> Some that's big enough to be seen at a distance would be nearly as
> disfiguring as the ear notch though, wouldn't it?

The tattoo doesn't have to be seen from a distance.  Once the cat was
trapped- you'd only be a few inches away from the cat.
-L. - 11 Nov 2005 20:51 GMT
> Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats ear
> is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.

It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
being the two biggest.  There's no way you are going to see the inside
of a cat's ear at night from a distance.  Sometimes you can barely make
out the cat, or the tipped ear.  And it still doesn't address
dark-skinned cats.

> These people aren't on the clock. They are taking their personal time to try
> to help the cats. Lighten up a bit. Gees you act like the rescuers are jack
> the ripper or something.

She's often critical of many things she knows nothing about.

-L.
Phil P. - 11 Nov 2005 21:33 GMT
> > Think what you want but I don't think any tattoo on the inside of a cats ear
> > is going to be terribly visible at 10:00 at night to a Volunteer trapper.
>
> It's just not practical for a number of reasons - cost and visibility
> being the two biggest.

Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing and only
take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
neuters.

There's no way you are going to see the inside
> of a cat's ear at night from a distance.

You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance.  You'd see the tattoo when
the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Sometimes you can barely make
> out the cat, or the tipped ear.  And it still doesn't address
> dark-skinned cats.

Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white-- which
would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 00:22 GMT
> Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing

Tipping is free.

>and only
> take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You don't have to see the tattoo from a distance.

Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
setting the trap.

>You'd see the tattoo when
> the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.

Maybe, maybe not.  It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip.  The
cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
'cause it's pissed. ;)

> Sometimes you can barely make
> > out the cat, or the tipped ear.  And it still doesn't address
> > dark-skinned cats.
>
> Lighter ink. Tattoo inks come in more than one color including white-- which
> would also be highly visible on a dark-skinned cat at night.

I highly doubt white ink is going to be visible on dark skinned cat.
Try it take photos and let us know.

-L.
Phil P. - 12 Nov 2005 12:55 GMT
> > Tattoos without a registry and just a mark cost practically nothing
>
> Tipping is free.

Only for mohels.

> >and only
> > take less than 5 minutes. Similar tattoos are used on the bellies of early
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> setting the trap.

You're calling plays from the bleachers-  Its easy to say "what's best" when
you don't have to deal with it.  Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
of the trappers.  I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
ear for my convenience.

> >You'd see the tattoo when
> > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
>
> Maybe, maybe not.  It's not going to be as obvious as an ear tip.  The
> cat is going to be holding its ears down most of the time anyway,
> 'cause it's pissed. ;)

The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
minutes.  Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

> > Sometimes you can barely make
> > > out the cat, or the tipped ear.  And it still doesn't address
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I highly doubt white ink is going to be visible on dark skinned cat.

The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.  The problem is
tipping has become routine policy.

> Try it take photos and let us know.

Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-)  In the mean time, go out,
trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 14:02 GMT
> > Tipping is free.
>
> Only for mohels.

LOL...well, my vets never charged extra, either.

> > Yes you do - if you are looking to trap a lone cat, or times when you
> > are looking at groups of cats to determine whether or not it's worth
> > setting the trap.
>
> You're calling plays from the bleachers-  Its easy to say "what's best" when
> you don't have to deal with it.

I do have to deal with it, Phil.  I trap cats now.  I have worked with
feral groups in the past.  In fact I have a trap set now for a sly
little grey female that's haunting our neighborhood.  I think the poor
thing was dumped.  Sure, I'll trap her tip or not, but there have been
other instances where people have asked me to trap just to get the cat
neutered (a stray/feral they were feeding) and one of the questions I
have asked is "does the cat have a tipped ear"?  It's a Universal
signal.

>Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
> of the trappers.  I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
> releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
> ear for my convenience.

That's a waste of time.  Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
precious.  Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
full-time jobs.

> > >You'd see the tattoo when
> > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The ears come up if you cover the trap and let the cat calm down for a few
> minutes.  Haven't you ever trapped a feral?

Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral.  Sigh.

> The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.

Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
silhouette.

> The problem is
> tipping has become routine policy.

A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.

> > Try it take photos and let us know.
>
> Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-)  In the mean time, go out,
> trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.

It doesn't bother me.  The lucky ones are the ones with tips.  The
unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
to raise kittens with little to eat.  Anything that makes it easier to
get more cats through the system is ok by me.  Hey - removing balls is
difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
little scrotal sacs. ;)

-L.
Phil P. - 12 Nov 2005 15:24 GMT
> > > Tipping is free.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I do have to deal with it, Phil.  I trap cats now.

You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.

It's a Universal
> signal.

That's the problem- and probably too late to correct because its so
convenient and its accepted as routine.  I just don't believe in tipping
cats.  I don't like it and I won't support it.

> >Ear tipping is strictly for the convenience
> > of the trappers.  I'd rather go through the effort of trapping the cat and
> > releasing it on the spot if she had a tattoo, than cut off the tip of the
> > ear for my convenience.
>
> That's a waste of time.

To *you*.  Not to me and the people I work with.  We just have different
values.  I don't believe in tipping a cat for the convenience of people.

Like Wendy said, it's volunteer time that is
> precious.  Most TNR peograms I know of are run by people who have
> full-time jobs.

I have two full time 'jobs' and a "part-time" job and I make the time.

> > > >You'd see the tattoo when
> > > > the cat was trapped from a few inches outside the trap.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral.  Sigh.

And?  The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
a covered trap?

> > The inside of the pinna is always lighter- I'd see it.
>
> Well, I'm sure I wouldn't always, because probably 80% of the time I
> have been looking for cats in the dark and sometimes all you see is the
> silhouette.

And?  I never said tipping isn't easier to see.

> > The problem is
> > tipping has become routine policy.
>
> A policy that is endorsed by every feral group I have ever researched.
> No reason to re-invent the wheel, so to speak, AFAIC.

Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
tipped cats you see?

http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

> > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> >
> > Yeah. Wait. I'll get back to you with that. ;-)  In the mean time, go out,
> > trap a feral and tip her ear and let us know how *you* feel about it.
>
> It doesn't bother me.

Like I said, we have different values.  Declawing doesn't bother some
people, either.

The lucky ones are the ones with tips.  The
> unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
> to raise kittens with little to eat.

What are you talking about???  Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
can exist without the other.  None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
neutered.  Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
them.  I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
viable and would have to be killed.  What would you do?

Anything that makes it easier to
> get more cats through the system is ok by me.

Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
by you too?

Hey - removing balls is
> difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> little scrotal sacs. ;)

That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
feline population in general.
Diane - 12 Nov 2005 15:54 GMT
> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> tipped cats you see?
>
> http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats? Most stray cats I've
ever seen have been thin and matted, dirty, covered with sores, etc. . .
.
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Phil P. - 12 Nov 2005 16:31 GMT
> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?

The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony.  That's
how managed colonies should look.

Most stray cats I've
> ever seen have been thin and matted, dirty, covered with sores, etc.

Sure.  Many strays and ferals are in pretty bad shape before they're
managed.  Neutering drastically reduces aggression and the wounds and
abscesses that follow, and ample and regular food drastically reduces fights
over food. Without the competitive pressures of sex and food the true social
nature of the cats emerge and the cats are free to shape their own little
community anyway they please.   Each colony actually has their own little,
unique culture.

Phil
Diane - 12 Nov 2005 17:02 GMT
> > > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
> >
> > Do ferals generally look as healthy as those cats?
>
> The cats in the video are a well-managed, happy and healthy colony.  That's
> how managed colonies should look.

I wasn't able to hear it -- I guess I was seeing him dealing with them
mostly one at a time.

Are ferals from a colony ever adopted? Honestly, several of those were
gorgeous. I have to say, if they can be managed without ear tipping, I'm
all for it.

(I'm ignorant about this partly because my first cat was a stray picked
up by a friend and Hodge is an abandoned cat.)
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5cats - 12 Nov 2005 17:19 GMT
>> > > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> gorgeous. I have to say, if they can be managed without ear tipping,
> I'm all for it.

A friend of mine out in California works with a group that manages the
ferals on on their employers (huge) property. When a cat turns out to be
receptive to human contact they do remove them from the coloney and place
them up for adoption. They don't try to tame the true ferals.
Diane - 12 Nov 2005 17:03 GMT
> Neutering drastically reduces aggression and the wounds and
> abscesses that follow, and ample and regular food drastically reduces fights
> over food. Without the competitive pressures of sex and food the true social
> nature of the cats emerge and the cats are free to shape their own little
> community anyway they please.

Yes, I can understand the benefits of eliminating reproductive and food
stresses. We should try this on humans. ;)
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cybercat - 12 Nov 2005 17:44 GMT
> > > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> > > tipped cats you see?
> > >
> > > http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

Phil that was a joy to see.
Sharon Talbert - 18 Nov 2005 22:11 GMT
I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
make my statement.  I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
responses and/or possible abuse.  (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
are awesome!)

Friends of Campus Cats ear-tips (straight cut across the tip of one ear,
just as Alley Cat Allies suggests; they even supply a directive to vets on
how to do this simple surgery as needed).  We do it so that animal can be
spotted at a distance as having been processed.  This is not merely for
our convenience (though anything that would help rescuers/feral cat
clinics do their work most efficiently is not to be discounted in my
book).  It is our hope that such obvious marking will without doubt catch
the eye of Animal Control if the animal is trapped as a stray or brought
in injured.  (And we have participated in such rescues, thanks to the
Seattle Animal Shelter.)

If ACA has stopped recommending ear-tipping I was not aware of it.  What's
more, I would be disappointed if they did.

I would like to see a combination of tatooing and ear-tipping, if only to
help track individual animals and colonies.  In the case of Cheetah (the
guy Seattle Animal Shelter turned over to us as a badly injured feral)
tatooing might have reunited him with his feeder.  On the other hand, then
we never would have found out that he was a tame guy and not feral at all!
And he wouldn't have the wonderful home he has now.

Sorry for the rambling message.  Hard to write well when you are in a
hurry.

My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
rarely disgree with what you have to say.  This is one of those rare
instances.

Sharon Talbert
Friends of Campus Cats

>>> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
>>> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Phil
whitershadeofpale - 18 Nov 2005 23:09 GMT
> I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
> make my statement.  I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> responses and/or possible abuse.  (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
> are awesome!)

He ain't all that is he?

mmm mmm, naw

this post smell like feet
Lumpy - 19 Nov 2005 03:35 GMT
> I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
> make my statement.  I'll come back later to respond (or not) to your
> responses and/or possible abuse.  (With all due respect to you, Phil; you
> are awesome!)

He really is. His position on the matter and mine are the same, as you know.
-L. - 19 Nov 2005 06:47 GMT
> > I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> > messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> He really is. His position on the matter and mine are the same, as you know.

Slurp, slurp, slurp.  Aren't your lips tired yet?
-L.
cybercat - 19 Nov 2005 11:56 GMT
> > > I am dipping briefly into this discussion and haven't caught up to all the
> > > messages in this string yet, but I have to go now and wanted to at least
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Slurp, slurp, slurp.  Aren't your lips tired yet?
> -L.

It's a simple fact. On this issue, Phil and I agree. You don't need to get
all huffy
just because it blows your lame argument that the only reason tipping
bothers me
is that I do not trap cats all to hell.
whitershadeofpale - 19 Nov 2005 03:39 GMT
> My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> rarely disgree with what you have to say.  This is one of those rare
> instances.
>
> Sharon Talbert
> Friends of Campus Cats

ooops, I see you are legit!

Im just messin anyway, I like Phil
He knows his stuff fo shure!
cybercat - 19 Nov 2005 04:20 GMT
> > My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> > rarely disgree with what you have to say.  This is one of those rare
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Im just messin anyway, I like Phil
> He knows his stuff fo shure!

One of my personal heroes, Charles Bukowski once said, "A lot of obnoxious
characters work their way
into immortality. I'm working on it myself."

The most exquisite rose has thorns.

Then again, there are blowhard jackasses without an ounce of worth to anyone
who have thorns
too.

I can tell the difference.

Nearly every one but the blowhard jackasses can.
Phil P. - 19 Nov 2005 07:10 GMT
> My highest regards, Phil; I always read your postings with interest and
> rarely disgree with what you have to say.  This is one of those rare
> instances.

I certainly respect your opinion and that of Ally Cat Allies even though I
don't condone the practice.  I feel an equal or better system could be
developed  if enough people pressed the issued.  I think ear-tipping is a
primitive and crude method of identifying ferals especially with our present
level of technology.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing you opinion.

Phil
cybercat - 12 Nov 2005 17:51 GMT
> > > > Tipping is free.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> feline population in general.

Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.

I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
as well or not. Can you explain that to me?
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 23:13 GMT
> Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
> else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
> as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

I'll tell ya what, Slurpy Grrl.  You go find an poorly managed colony,
and spend the next couple years TNRing all of the cats there.  Tattoo
all of the ears on all the cats while you are having them tested,
vaccinated and neutered.  (Better start saving your pennies now - this
isn't an inexpensive hobby.)  Come back and report to us how well the
tatoos work at helping you to ID cats - in the dark, in silhouette, and
during poor weather conditions when visibilty is low.

If, once you do all  that, you are able to honestly (I know honesty is
a stretch for you, or need I mention the pig patrol incident?) report
that the ear tatoo - which IMO, if done properly is going to be just
about as disfiguring as a simple tip - is effective in helping to ID
previously TNR'ed cats, I will change my practice.

Until then, why don't you have a nice, big, hot, cup of Shut the f.ck
Up.

-L.
Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 00:20 GMT
> Phil, it is great to see someone who is much more active in TNR than anyone
> else in this group say that tipping in fact is NOT necessary to the process.
> It must not be my ignorance and inexperience that made me suspect it.

It probably goes against your nature because its mutilation without any
benefit for the cat.

> I don't understand why those who trap cats get defensive about the practice
> of ear tipping at all--even when they have no idea if tattooing would work
> as well or not. Can you explain that to me?

Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing to
do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through.  I've had very serious-
almost violent arguments over ear tipping and the bottom lines is always the
same: its *easier* and more *convenient* for trappers to identify neutered
ferals.  I agree; it *is* easier and more convenient- but that does not make
it the right thing to do to a cat.  I don't even like the idea of tattooing!
But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form of
the cat.
cybercat - 13 Nov 2005 01:29 GMT
>  Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing to
> do to a cat- its their conscience breaking through.  I've had very serious-
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> But its the lesser of the two evils and doesn't change the physical form of
> the cat.

I have to agree. I note from the article that Megan posted that the more
honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.
Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 01:56 GMT
> >  Probably because deep in their hearts they know its not the right thing
> to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> honest of those rescuers who use ear tipping are bothered by it. It is a
> shame that they don't act on that to find a better way.

The problem is, better ways involve a bit more work- that's why it will
never change.

The founder of Neighborhood Cats and author of the article must feel as
uncomfortable about ear tipping as I do since he didn't tip his own colony
as you can clearly see in the video.
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 18:43 GMT
> You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.

Yeah, Phil.  I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
so.  Maybe more.  I''m a newbie.

<snip>

> > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral.  Sigh.
>
> And?  The cat didn't calm down after a few minutes if you left her alone in
> a covered trap?

Not always.

> Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
> Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
> tipped cats you see?
>
> http://www.madotv.com/video/cats.ram

I don't know anything about them.  They may manage their colony in such
a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
know.  I don't really care.

> > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Like I said, we have different values.  Declawing doesn't bother some
> people, either.

Yeah, whatever, Phil.  It's an ear tip - not a defense mechanism.  Most
people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly".  That's just
silly, AFAIC.

> The lucky ones are the ones with tips.  The
> > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
> > to raise kittens with little to eat.
>
> What are you talking about???  Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
> can exist without the other.

Well Duh.  The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
TNR'd.  And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.

>None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
> neutered.  Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
> for 2 litters whose queens were in their third trimester when we trapped
> them.  I won't abort a cat in the third trimester because the kittens are
> viable and would have to be killed.  What would you do?

Depends on how close she is.  I don't have any problem aborting kittens
if that's what you are asking.  I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
thought it was pretty sick.  Most of any size may move but never take a
breath.  I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
shelter.  I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.

> Anything that makes it easier to
> > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
>
> Low standards of adoption to people who can't/won't provide a good quality
> of care, and declawing would "get more cats through the system"- are they ok
> by you too?

I am talking about the TNR system.

> Hey - removing balls is
> > difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
> > little scrotal sacs. ;)
>
> That's because neutering provides *health* benefits to the cat and the
> feline population in general.

It's still disfiguring.

-L.
cybercat - 12 Nov 2005 19:54 GMT
> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
> know.  I don't really care.

And this is the crux of the matter, when it comes to you.

> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly".  That's just
> silly, AFAIC.

Why would you want to cut off a part of an animal--any part--if you
don't HAVE to? That's the real question. Your callousness here is the
same callousness we see when you tell people to return cats to kill
shelters just because they have a behavioral issue. Your indifference
to the individual cats does not make you look like an "old pro,"
Lyn, as you seem to think. It reveals exactly what you are. A
hard-hearted control freak who likes to puff herself up by appearing
to be an "expert" at things--oftentimes to the detriment of other people
and other creatures, here, to cats.

The kind of person who argues against immediate vet care for injuries
and illnesses, so that you can give the impression that you are the
"expert" and those of us whose first concern is that cat the "novices."
Nobody cares about this kind of thing but you. It is a sign of the sort
of miserable insecurity that causes a great deal of harm in this world.
And that is the reason you are repulsive to me. I see right through you,
and I do care about these creatures more than I care about what people
think of me. Whether or not I am an "expert." It isn't just that you get on
my nerves. It isn't just that you cannot lose an argument without flying
into a frothy rage of "whatevers" and "duhs."

> > What are you talking about???  Tipped and neutered are not synonymous- one
> > can exist without the other.
>
> Well Duh.  The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
> TNR'd.  And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.

Any time your own convenience is more important than protecting
the animal from needless harm, you are no advocate of cats.

> > Hey - removing balls is
> > > difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It's still disfiguring.

And it still is necessary to provide a HUGE health benefit--unlike
cutting off the tip of the ear. You're wrong. And the horrible thing is
not that you won't admit it--it is that you will continue to promote
a practice that disfigures cats and is of no health benefit to them--
for your own convenience and to satisfy your own fragile ego.

Pathetic. Repulsive and pathetic.
-L. - 12 Nov 2005 22:37 GMT
>blah, blah ,blah, I'm so superior to you, blah, blah, blah...ad nauseum

Sit on your a.s in the cold and the rain all night waiting on traps,
two or three weekends straight, and then maybe your input would mean
something.  Until then, you're just another old boor.

-L.
John Doe - 13 Nov 2005 17:59 GMT
Why don't you save your righteous judgment for people who douse cats
with gasoline and light them on fire, instead of trolling here in
this group.

Saying that "you shouldn't do this or that because there must be a
better way" is a lazy cop-out. It's kind of like your pat answer
"take it to the vet". It doesn't require you to do anything or even
to think about anything (except post a few self satisfying words to
USENET).

> From: "cybercat" <boagrrl hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>
> Pathetic. Repulsive and pathetic.

             
Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 00:18 GMT
> > You're a newbie. Lets see you feel about it in a few months or a few years.
>
> Yeah, Phil.  I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
> so.  Maybe more.  I''m a newbie.

You said  "I do have to deal with it, Phil.  I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
the impression that you've just begun trapping.  Otherwise, you would have
said "I trap cats too".

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Not always.

Nothing is "always" and 'never".  Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
strays and pet cats that are frantic.

> > Ever hear of Neighborhood Cats in NYC?  About as well known as Alley Cat
> > Allies. Watch this video of one of their colonies and tell me how many
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> a way that they know every single cat and have named them all - I don't
> know.  I don't really care.

Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country.  In
fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
by NC.

> > > > > Try it take photos and let us know.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> people don't like it because it makes the cat look "ugly".  That's just
> silly, AFAIC.

No, its not a matter of looking silly. Its a matter of disfiguring a cat for
convenience.  Many people feel they can do whatever they like to ferals
because they're "helping" them and otherwise the cats would be killed.  The
problem is tipping has become so convenient and routine that nobody wants to
change it- or even knows how do anything else.

> > The lucky ones are the ones with tips.  The
> > > unlucky ones are the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Well Duh.  The fact remains the lucky cats are the ones who have been
> TNR'd.

No- Duh- you said the "lucky ones are the ones with tips. The unlucky ones
are
the ones out there still breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with
little to eat."  --- which implies non-tipped ferals are "out there still
breeding, fighting and trying to raise kittens with little to eat" -- which
clearly not true.  *Many* non-tipped ferals are neutered and managed.

For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.

And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.

Its the *only* system that has been tried.  Doesn't mean its the best.  For
that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
even easier to see. Same principal.

> >None of my colonies are tipped and they're all
> > neutered.  Haven't had a birth since I've been managing the colonies- except
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Depends on how close she is.

I said the third trimester.

I don't have any problem aborting kittens
> if that's what you are asking.  I have seen dozens of aborted kittens
> and have only seen one instance where they needed to be euthanized - I
> thought it was pretty sick.  Most of any size may move but never take a
> breath.  I have seen dozens of dead kittens on the dead pile at the
> shelter.  I'll take aborted over lived and died, any day.

So, would you abort a queen in her third trimester when the kittens are
viable? If so, the *kittens* would be *killed* not aborted.

> > Anything that makes it easier to
> > > get more cats through the system is ok by me.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I am talking about the TNR system.

There is no TNR system- that's the problem.  Different cities and towns all
have their own methods.

> > Hey - removing balls is
> > > difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It's still disfiguring.

Oh no no no.  Its not that simple or black and white.  Neutering prevents
countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
difference.

Phil
Diane - 13 Nov 2005 00:36 GMT
> > > Hey - removing balls is
> > > > difigurement too.  I don't hear anyone crying about those shriveled up
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
> difference.

Actually, it's really an apples-to-oranges argument. They're not
comparable.
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-L. - 13 Nov 2005 02:30 GMT
> > Yeah, Phil.  I've onlty been trapping cats um, I dunno - 10 years or
> > so.  Maybe more.  I''m a newbie.
>
> You said  "I do have to deal with it, Phil.  I trap cats now." "Now" gave me
> the impression that you've just begun trapping.  Otherwise, you would have
> said "I trap cats too".

Um, I'll choose my own verbage, TYVM.  What I meant was I am trapping
cats currently.

> > > > Yes, Phil, I have trapped "a" feral.  Sigh.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Nothing is "always" and 'never".  Ferals tend to be stoic in traps- its the
> strays and pet cats that are frantic.

I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off.  And yes, they were
feral.

> Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
> Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country.  In
> fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
> by NC.

That's stupid.

<snip>

> > > What are you talking about???  Tipped and neutered are not synonymous-
> one
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> For someone who isn't a newbie to TNR- you sure sound like one.

You are misinterpreting what I am writing.  The lucky cats are the cats
with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
TNR'd and therefore are lucky.  It is the untipped cats in such areas
that aren't so lucky.

> And any system that makes it easier to TNR more cats is fine
> > with me - especially if it is tested all over the US and works.
>
> Its the *only* system that has been tried.

Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.

>  Doesn't mean its the best.  For
> that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
> even easier to see. Same principal.

Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
tip, Phil.  Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
cut off?  Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.

<snip>

> There is no TNR system- that's the problem.  Different cities and towns all
> have their own methods.

"The system" as in the system one uses.  The more cats I can TNR, the
better.  That involves tipping.  I'm sorry that upsets you so much.
Would you rather I - and everyone who tips -  stop trapping and
neutering cats altogether?

> Oh no no no.  Its not that simple or black and white.  Neutering prevents
> countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
> diseases and wounds, so neutering benefits the cat and the general feline
> population- tipping only saves the trapper a little time and trouble. Big
> difference.

It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
cause or not.  You can't have it both ways.

-L.
Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 12:13 GMT
> Um, I'll choose my own verbage, TYVM.  What I meant was I am trapping
> cats currently.

I see. Okey dokey.

> I have had ferals try to take my freaking hand off.  And yes, they were
> feral.

There's actually no need to even touch
the cat.  After the cat is in the trap, butt the trap to the squeeze or
transfer cage and raise the vertical door at the back of the trap and the
front vertical door of the squeeze cage.  If the cat won't go into the cage,
simply prod the cat gently with a ruler or tilt the trap and cage.  The vet
can sedate the cat in the squeeze cage without handling the cat while she's
conscious.  After surgery, the vet puts the cat in a carrier or cage (while
she's still asleep) to
recover- you release the cat from the carrier.  You should never have to
touch the cat if you don't want to.

You can also get a cat into a carrier from a trap without touching the cat.

> > Most colony managers know *all* of their cats and give all of them names.
> > Neighborhood Cats gives lectures and TNR workshops all over the country.  In
> > fact in NYC, you can't borrow a trap from the ASPCA unless you're certified
> > by NC.
>
> That's stupid.

Not really.  Shelters have been sued because people have been injured
setting the traps.  Some shelters now make you sign a release before they'll
loan you a trap.

> You are misinterpreting what I am writing.  The lucky cats are the cats
> with tips in areas where tipping is done - it signal they have been
> TNR'd and therefore are lucky.  It is the untipped cats in such areas
> that aren't so lucky.

Why? Even if an untipped, tattooed cat was retrapped- she'd only be in the
trap for a few a minutes and released.

> Some TNR programs have tried tattoos.

They didn't try hard or long enough.  I admit, tipping is much more
convenient.

> >  Doesn't mean its the best.  For
> > that matter, cutting off half of the tail would work even better because its
> > even easier to see. Same principal.
>
> Don't be silly. Cutting off a tail is vastly more invasive than an ear
> tip, Phil.

Same principal- no benefit for the cat and its easily noticed.

Have you ever ben present in surgery when the ear tip is
> cut off?  Slice, powder, and the cat is off to recovery.

Yes. That's one of the reasons why I oppose tipping.  Its just like a
declawing surgery- except glue is used instead of powder.

> Would you rather I - and everyone who tips -  stop trapping and
> neutering cats altogether?

No, but I do wish you wouldn't use the straw man fallacy.  One can be done
without the other.

> > Oh no no no.  Its not that simple or black and white.  Neutering prevents
> > countless births and deaths, cancers and diseases and fight-transmitted
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It's still disfigurement, no matter if it is for what *you* deem "good"
> cause or not.

I see. So, you equate ear tipping with neutering.  Declawers, tail dockers,
and ear croppers use the same analogy to justify their position.  What's
next analogy, abortion?
Diane - 13 Nov 2005 13:46 GMT
> After the cat is in the trap, butt the trap to the squeeze or
> transfer cage and raise the vertical door at the back of the trap and the
> front vertical door of the squeeze cage.  If the cat won't go into the cage,
> simply prod the cat gently with a ruler or tilt the trap and cage.  

I think they show that in the video.
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Phil P. - 13 Nov 2005 15:31 GMT
> > After the cat is in the trap, butt the trap to the squeeze or
> > transfer cage and raise the vertical door at the back of the trap and the
> > front vertical door of the squeeze cage.  If the cat won't go into the cage,
> > simply prod the cat gently with a ruler or tilt the trap and cage.
>
> I think they show that in the video.

In the video, he's transferring a cat from a single door trap to a
carrier.  The technique I explained works like this:
http://tinyurl.com/eytdw

Another method for transferring a cat to a carrier from a single door trap
uses a piece a cardboard that's slid between the trap and carrier after the
cat is in the carrier.  The cardboard is slowly slid out as you close the
carrier door.  The technique in the video is easier, but you have to be
quick.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 13 Nov 2005 16:18 GMT
Phil wrote:
>That's one of the reasons why I oppose
>tipping. Its just like a declawing surgery-

OFFS. This is beyond ridiculous. An eartip is nothing like a declaw.
There is no amputation of bones, no cutting of tendons and ligaments, no
permanent disability and no need for intense painkillers post surgery. A
lot of ferals already have cut up ears from fighting and aren't any
worse for the wear. This is the kind of
desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).

Megan

                                   
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cybercat - 13 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT
> Phil wrote:
> >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> desperate-attempt-to-win-an-argument-at-any-cost crap you post that
> obliterates your credibility (or any evidence of sanity).

And this is the type of "personal attack" response that identifies you
as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
to snide comments does.

Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed "like a declaw" in the sense
that it is unnecessary mutilation that serves no medical benefit. There
is nothing "beyond ridiculous" about this. You don't have to go rabid
every time someone disagrees with you, Megan. Or if you do, perhaps
you just are not cut out for participating in discussion groups.
-L. - 13 Nov 2005 17:56 GMT
> > Phil wrote:
> > >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> as someone whose argument is not strong enough, just as your resorting
> to snide comments does.

Oh Puh-leese.  Should we post *your* history, cybercat/Lumpy/Topaz/Mary
S.?  Should we mention the fact that you resort to *calling the cops*
on people you disagree with on Usenet?  This is just oh-so-cherry
coming from *you*.

As much as you want people to believe in the sweet, nicey-nice version
of yourself you now present - as cybercat or Lumpy - that you want
people to so desperately to believe in, nobody will *ever* forgive or
forget *your history*.  So quit trying to play "holier-than-thou" - you
are not fooling anyone.  With that single phone call, *you* earned the
all-time Usenet a.shole Award and proved to everyone just how mentally
unstable you really are.  So Just STFU.

> Cutting off the tip of a cat's ear is indeed "like a declaw" in the sense
> that it is unnecessary mutilation that serves no medical benefit.

It serves a medical benefit if it keeps the cat from being euthanized
as a feral at a municipal pound or humane society.  The ear tip is a
universal signal that the cat is part of a managed colony.  Staying
alive is a medical benefit.

>There
> is nothing "beyond ridiculous" about this. You don't have to go rabid
> every time someone disagrees with you, Megan. Or if you do, perhaps
> you just are not cut out for participating in discussion groups.

See above, Queen of Rabidity.

-L.
cybercat - 13 Nov 2005 18:14 GMT
> > > Phil wrote:
> > > >That's one of the reasons why I oppose
[quo