Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2005
augh! heart murmurs and chronic renal failure...
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Glitter Ninja - 04 Nov 2005 05:38 GMT Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an underdeveloped cerebellum and he isn't in any pain, but we should watch for arthritis in his hips in the future. He had a very slight kidney infection which is what was making him pee on the floor. The good news is it allowed the vet to detect early kidney failure, which we can treat (with food, apparently) and isn't as serious as finding it later. If he hadn't been peeing on the floor I wouldn't have taken him to the vet. But he also had a heart murmur and a slightly enlarged heart. He seems OK so far but we've got an ultrasound scheduled for Tuesday. He may be on meds for the rest of his life. Man, getting old is hard on a cat! Wish us luck.
Stacia
Brandy Alexandre - 04 Nov 2005 06:07 GMT Glitter Ninja <stacia@xmission.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
> Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as > arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Stacia Much, MUCH luck and many purrs from me and Kami. Kami's kidney disease was caught early, too, and it's been four years and I've only just started weekly fluids need-it-or-not. She, too, has a heart murmur, which makes the fluid thing tricky, but considering what we humans go through in aging, I'd rather be a cat. ;)
 Signature Brandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you?
Phil P. - 04 Nov 2005 09:36 GMT I've only just
> started weekly fluids need-it-or-not. Brilliant. Why are you putting additional stress on the kidneys when she doesn't need fluid replacement?? Fluids should be given to correct dehydration or to promote diuresis *on a short-term basis* to augment GRF and remove uremic toxins (BUN/Cr.) *acutely*. Diuresis isn't some cheap form of dialysis. Giving her fluids when she doesn't need them promotes diuresis-- which increases single-nephron GFR and promotes glomerular hyperfiltration which *promotes progression* of CRF. But you're smart and know all this and don't need anyone to tell you
Have you been giving her a potassium supplement while she's been receiving fluid therapy? Probably not. Fluid therapy induces rapid urine formation which induces increased potassium excretion. CRF cats should receive a potassium supplement even if they're not receiving fluid therapy because they can't concentrate their urine and urinate more frequently than normal cats. But you're smart and know all this and don't need anyone to tell you.
She, too, has a heart murmur,
> which makes the fluid thing tricky, Take a break from your porn and gossip newsgroups and research "volume overload".
With every post, you make it more and more obvious that you're not suited to be entrusted with a cat's life- *especially* a sick cat.
5cats - 04 Nov 2005 15:05 GMT > I've only just > started weekly fluids need-it-or-not. need-it-or-not? Why on earth would you stress the cat with an unneeded proceedure?
cybercat - 04 Nov 2005 18:28 GMT > Brandy Alexandre wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > need-it-or-not? > Why on earth would you stress the cat with an unneeded proceedure? She's insane and not very bright. At the risk of being one of those a.sholes who announces every click of her killfile .... let's just say that I have begun to use mine.
Brandy Alexandre - 04 Nov 2005 19:59 GMT 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> I've only just >> started weekly fluids need-it-or-not. > > need-it-or-not? > Why on earth would you stress the cat with an unneeded proceedure? It doesn't stress her mentally anymore. She has become quick accepting of it. I said "need-it-or-not" mostly because the vet said I should consider giving it regularly, but a few times I could see that it wasn't necessary. But lately I've noticed a "need it" anyway, so it's a moot point. She only gets 50-75ml because of her heart, so there's little bio stress.
I'm sorry I didn't write a lengthy dissertation and provide a tome of backstory to validate my comment. Try to just trust there's a reason for everything.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you?
Phil P. - 04 Nov 2005 20:51 GMT > 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It doesn't stress her mentally anymore. The *kidneys*, moron- why stress her already impaired kidneys with unnecessary fluid therapy. You really are clueless.
> > It doesn't stress her mentally anymore. She has become quick accepting > > of it. I said "need-it-or-not" mostly because the vet said I should > > consider giving it regularly, but a few times I could see that it > > wasn't necessary. You saw it wasn't necessary? You saw? What did you see? How could *you* tell if she needed fluid therapy or not? You're not exactly a Felinestein.
But lately I've noticed a "need it" anyway, so it's
> > a moot point. You noticed? How?
She only gets 50-75ml because of her heart, so there's
> > little bio stress. "Just a little" is too much if it isn't necessary. Take a break from the porn and gossip newsgroups and research CRF and fluid therapy- oh that's right- that's no fun.
> I'm sorry I didn't write a lengthy dissertation and provide a tome of > backstory to validate my comment. Try to just trust there's a reason > for everything. Trust you? ROTFL! I wouldn't trust you with a stuffed cat.
5cats - 04 Nov 2005 21:46 GMT > I'm sorry I didn't write a lengthy dissertation and provide a tome of > backstory to validate my comment. Try to just trust there's a reason > for everything. Trust you? Um, no, don't think I will.
> It doesn't stress her mentally anymore. She has become quick accepting > of it. I said "need-it-or-not" mostly because the vet said I should > consider giving it regularly, but a few times I could see that it > wasn't necessary. But lately I've noticed a "need it" anyway, so it's > a moot point. She only gets 50-75ml because of her heart, so there's > little bio stress. So the VET says it's needed, but for some reason YOU thought it wasn't?
Sigh.
Brandy Alexandre - 04 Nov 2005 21:55 GMT 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> I'm sorry I didn't write a lengthy dissertation and provide a >> tome of backstory to validate my comment. Try to just trust [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Sigh. Ah, I'm starting to see the seams of another sock puppet. Either way I'll be wrong and you will bend over backward trying to be seen and get others going. I feel sorry for your cats been prisoner to someone sick as you. How many times will you change your ID so pathetically desperate to be seen?
 Signature Brandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you?
5cats - 04 Nov 2005 22:34 GMT > 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > as you. How many times will you change your ID so pathetically > desperate to be seen? I'm relatively new here, maybe it's been a couple of months already. (my, how time flies) Long enough anyway to form my own opinions. Me, myself and I, but not anyone else's puppet.
Phil P. - 04 Nov 2005 22:42 GMT > 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > as you. How many times will you change your ID so pathetically > desperate to be seen? That's hilarious! The bimbo thinks 5cats is me because he doesn't agree with your stupidity either! LOL! You truly are an a.shole.
Joe Canuck - 04 Nov 2005 22:54 GMT Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> 5cats <5cats@fake-email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > as you. How many times will you change your ID so pathetically > desperate to be seen? Everyone online that disagrees with you seems to fall into one of two categories according to you:
1) A sock puppet who desperately wants you to read their rhetoric. 2) A stalker who is hounding you for some unknown reason.
The above indicates you think the world revolves around you and that you think you are more important than you actually are.
More proof of the later is provided by you insisting on using a pseudo name you became known as in your former porno career. Yet, you also claim to have moved beyond that career. Seems to me moving beyond that career means leaving the name go as well.
In any case, getting back to feline matters, you'd do well to forget about all that and concentrate on taking better care of your cat. Lately in here you certainly haven't provided much indication you are doing that very well.
Phil P - 04 Nov 2005 17:55 GMT I set this post to detonate a few feet under the sand where your head is so I know you'll see it.
I've only just
> started weekly fluids need-it-or-not. Brilliant. Why are you putting additional stress on the kidneys when she doesn't need fluid replacement?? Fluids should be given to correct dehydration or to promote diuresis *on a short-term basis* to augment GRF and remove uremic toxins (BUN/Cr.) *acutely*. Diuresis isn't some cheap form of dialysis. Giving her fluids when she doesn't need them promotes diuresis-- which increases single-nephron GFR and promotes glomerular hyperfiltration which *promotes progression* of CRF. But you're smart and know all this and don't need anyone to tell you
Have you been giving her a potassium supplement while she's been receiving fluid therapy? Probably not. Fluid therapy induces rapid urine formation which induces increased potassium excretion. CRF cats should receive a potassium supplement even if they're not receiving fluid therapy because they can't concentrate their urine and urinate more frequently than normal cats. But you're smart and know all this and don't need anyone to tell you.
She, too, has a heart murmur,
> which makes the fluid thing tricky, Take a break from your porn and gossip newsgroups and research "volume overload".
With every post, you make it more and more obvious that you're not suited to be entrusted with a cat's life- *especially* a sick cat.
cybercat - 04 Nov 2005 18:31 GMT > With every post, you make it more and more obvious that you're not suited to > be entrusted with a cat's life- *especially* a sick cat. One of the saddest facts in life is that we cannot stop idiots from owning animals and doing terrible things to them. No exaggeration on my part, either. It's right up there with child abuse IMO. In both cases creatures who depend completely upon us are being abused.
cybercat - 04 Nov 2005 06:24 GMT > Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as > arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an underdeveloped > cerebellum [...] Man, getting old is hard on a cat! Has his cerebellum always been underdeveloped? If so, how wonderful that now is the first time you have seen the effects, when he is old.
>Wish us luck. Indeed. I will keep you both in my prayers.
glsummer@neptunelink.com - 04 Nov 2005 21:12 GMT > Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as >arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an underdeveloped [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Stacia I'm so sorry. I know it's tricky. My Cosmo was diagnosed in May of 2000 with early CRF and a significant heart murmur, and he is still with us. He went through fluids briefly, but a second opinion decided he did not need to continue those. He is on a potassium supplement, too. And he is doing amazingly well, age and problems considered. Wishing you best of luck that your Spam will have many, many years left yet.
Ginger-lyn
Home Pages: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/ http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats) http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy) http://www.movieanimals.bravehost.com/ (The Violence Against Animals in Movies Website)
Brandy Alexandre - 04 Nov 2005 21:52 GMT <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as >>arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Ginger-lyn What fluids does your vet give you? Mine gives me Normosol, which has potassium, and injects additional potassium, so I don't have to give her any supplements for fluid therapy.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you?
Phil P. - 04 Nov 2005 22:42 GMT > What fluids does your vet give you? Mine gives me Normosol, which > has potassium, and injects additional potassium, so I don't have to > give her any supplements for fluid therapy. I see you read my post because you wouldn't have mentioned or even known about potassium supplements with fluid therapy, otherwise. You're a lousy liar.
glsummer@neptunelink.com - 05 Nov 2005 19:14 GMT > <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >has potassium, and injects additional potassium, so I don't have to >give her any supplements for fluid therapy. Lactated ringer's, and it did include potassium, so in the short time he received fluids, I obviously was not giving him the extra potassium supplement. However, he is not on fluids now, but still receives the potassium (not just for the CRF, but because of his heart, he is also on Lasix. Talk about a delicate balance!).
Ginger-lyn
Home Pages: http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/ http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats) http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy) http://www.movieanimals.bravehost.com/ (The Violence Against Animals in Movies Website)
Brandy Alexandre - 05 Nov 2005 22:15 GMT <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav:
>> <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Ginger-lyn Ah, Kami's murmur isn't bad, so she doesn't take medication. I was just thinking you were having to give something extra that my vet just puts in the fluids. It actually made her feel a little ill at first, but I guess she adapted.
 Signature Brandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you?
Joe Canuck - 05 Nov 2005 23:58 GMT Brandy Alexandre wrote:
> <glsummer@neptunelink.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Ah, Kami's murmur isn't bad, so she doesn't take medication. I was > just thinking Now *that* is really hard to believe!
Phil P. - 04 Nov 2005 22:41 GMT > Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as > arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an underdeveloped > cerebellum and he isn't in any pain, but we should watch for arthritis > in his hips in the future. Cerebellar hypoplasia sometimes happens when a cat was infected with parvovirus as a kitten.
> He had a very slight kidney infection which is what was making him pee > on the floor. Sounds more like feline interstitial cystitis. How did the vet diagnose a kidney infection? Without ultrasounds or excretory urography or a urine culture with urine taken directly from the kidneys- its pretty hard to localize an infection in the urinary tract. IOW, its very difficult to tell if an infection is in the upper or the lower urinary tract without specialized tests.
Infections in the kidneys are called pyelonephritis- and usually don't produce any signs unless its severe. If Spam actually has a kidney infection, it might have damaged his kidneys- which would account for his increased BUN/Cr.-- but I think its unlikely. Contrary to popular belief, urinary tract infections in cats aren't very common (except in diabetic and moderate CRF cats) due to the high acidity and specific gravity of feline urine. Most of the time, crystalluria and interstitial cystitis are lumped under "UTI".
The good news is it allowed the vet to detect early
> kidney failure, which we can treat (with food, apparently) and isn't as > serious as finding it later. If he hadn't been peeing on the floor I > wouldn't have taken him to the vet. > But he also had a heart murmur and a slightly enlarged heart. He may not be in early CRF. Heart disease can cause prerenal azotemia. Elevated BUN/Cr. can result from prerenal or postrenal causes, too. Did the vet check Spam's urine specific gravity? Elevated BUN/Cr. with concentrated urine (normal USG) would suggest prerenal azotemia rather than CRF.
He
> seems OK so far but we've got an ultrasound scheduled for Tuesday. He > may be on meds for the rest of his life. > Man, getting old is hard on a cat! Wish us luck. Believe it or not, heart disease is not difficult to treat in cats- providing its caught early. Some of the heart medications- such as diltiazem and atenolol have proved to be truly wonder drugs for cats!
Best of luck,
Phil
Glitter Ninja - 05 Nov 2005 14:23 GMT >"Glitter Ninja" <stacia@xmission.com> wrote :
>> Well, I got Spam to the vet today, and discovered he wasn't as >> arthritic as thought. His back legs are the result of an underdeveloped >> cerebellum and he isn't in any pain, but we should watch for arthritis >> in his hips in the future.
>Cerebellar hypoplasia sometimes happens when a cat was infected with >parvovirus as a kitten. Yes, that's what the vet called it. She said he had the classic symptoms of back leg muscle tremors and extending his front legs out a little more than "normal" when he walks. She thinks his mom had distemper when she was pregnant with kittens.
>> He had a very slight kidney infection which is what was making him pee >> on the floor.
>Sounds more like feline interstitial cystitis. How did the vet diagnose a >kidney infection? It's not definite. The vet said that their in-house test showed some bacteria in the urine sample but the urine is dilute, so it may not be accurate. They put him on Clavamox as a just-in-case and we'll get the lab results that they sent out for on Monday. If there's no infection they'll let me know and we'll stop the Clavamox.
>Without ultrasounds or excretory urography or a urine >culture with urine taken directly from the kidneys- its pretty hard to >localize an infection in the urinary tract. The sample was taken from his kidneys, if I understood correctly, because he never urinated while at the vet. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. They think there may be some crystals in the urine, too, but that's going to be determined by the more extensive urine test being done, which should include some of the other items you mentioned that should be tested for.
>Believe it or not, heart disease is not difficult to treat in cats- >providing its caught early. Some of the heart medications- such as >diltiazem and atenolol have proved to be truly wonder drugs for cats! I hope so! Thanks for all the information. I feel a lot better about it now that I've read yours and others' posts.
Stacia
Rhonda - 06 Nov 2005 03:22 GMT > Yes, that's what the vet called it. She said he had the classic > symptoms of back leg muscle tremors and extending his front legs out a > little more than "normal" when he walks. She thinks his mom had > distemper when she was pregnant with kittens. We had a kitten with CH, also. Our vet said the same as yours -- it occurs when the mother has feline distemper during pregnancy, and the kittens' cerebellums do not fully develop.
That's interesting that your cat has a kidney infection. How old is he? We lost our CH kitten at 7 weeks due to either a kidney infection or kidney abnormalities, we were not able to find out if that part was genetic. Luckily, his siblings had only slight tremors that they seem to have grown out of, and one of his brothers has neurological problems with his eyes (very limited vision.)
Good luck with Spam, I hope he's feeling better by now.
Rhonda
Glitter Ninja - 07 Nov 2005 11:32 GMT >> Yes, that's what the vet called it. She said he had the classic >> symptoms of back leg muscle tremors and extending his front legs out a >> little more than "normal" when he walks. She thinks his mom had >> distemper when she was pregnant with kittens.
>That's interesting that your cat has a kidney infection. How old is he? >We lost our CH kitten at 7 weeks due to either a kidney infection or >kidney abnormalities Hmm, I wonder if kidney problems are common in CH cats? From what I can tell, though, kidney problems are common in a lot of cats, regardless of other problems. Spam is 13. He was born probably in the summer of 1992, and we got him in October of 1992. Since we started the renal food diet and have given him antibiotics, he has really gotten better. He walks further with little or no heavy breathing afterwards, there is no more peeing on the floor and his diarrhea stopped. He'll probably have another tizzy on Tuesday when he goes in for an ultrasound though, he can't stand car rides.
Stacia
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