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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2005Cat not good - time for euthanasia?
Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for about 6 months. 6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full of fluid and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative. We had x-rays and scans done but nothing could be found (due possibly to the fluid). At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the time, we thought he has still pretty much happy though. As the months have gone on the vets have tried him on increasing doses of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If anything hes got even more swollen. Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly anxious about food. Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in the house (whihc is not cool with a young toddler in the house). Generally he seems a bit unhappy. He wont leave his food area and wont go outside. Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about that idea. He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more. Anyone got any comments? > Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for > about 6 months. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Anyone got any comments? If I were in your place I would take him to another vet before I made any decisions. You haven't even gotten a diagnosis from your vet. I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray I might be time for another x-ray with a little more slow paced tech getting in all the angles. I won't say anything about money but is there a animal surgical center in your area It might be in the cats' best interest to take him to him there where more than one vet can take a look and they usually have the proper equipment to do a diagnoses I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or the cat is pain when moving > I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since > nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or > the cat is pain when moving I'm in the UK so I dont think theres any such thing as animal surgical centres. Basically, its just vets. > I see scans mentioned but not what Did they do an ultra sound since > nothing could be seen because of the fluid or nothing was seen on the x-ray [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am assuming the cat's stool is ok the abdomen is not sore to the touch or > the cat is pain when moving X-ray and ultrsound. >>Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for >>about 6 months. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > If I were in your place I would take him to another vet before I made > any decisions. You haven't even gotten a diagnosis from your vet. Seek a 2nd opinion from another vet. >As the months have gone on the vets >have tried him on increasing doses of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Also, he seems to be getting more hungry >and increasingly anxious about food. Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A medication such as Lasix is an appropriate drug for this use. Steroids also stimluate the appetite, which would explain your cat's anxiousness about food. You need to find another vet ASAP, preferably an internal medicine specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good. Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would > think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you > are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good. Perhaps it wasnt steriods then. (although I'm sure it was prednisalone). Neil (the cat) was the same with his food before the mediction anyway. > Since steroids cause fluid retention, I don't know why your vet would > think this is a good program for eliminating the extra fluid. A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > specialist, and get a diagnosis and proper treatment plan. The vet you > are using now is obviously clueless and is doing more harm than good. My mistake. Initially diuretics were tried but these had no effect. Steriods are now been given to treat any possible tumour. > Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for > about 6 months. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Anyone got any comments? No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second opinion before making any decisions. > No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second opinion > before making any decisions. Its actally a laparotomay (spelling!) to get a sample of the liver. >> No way would I let that vet do exploratory surgery. Get a second >> opinion before making any decisions. > > Its actally a laparotomay (spelling!) to get a sample of the liver. I had to look that up, it means abdominal surgery. http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0022163.html Other than the slightly enlarged liver, did they find anything else that they want a liver biopsy? > Other than the slightly enlarged liver, did they find anything else that > they want a liver biopsy? No. Thats it from what I've been told. > Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for > about 6 months. > > 6 months ago we noticed that his abdomen was beginning to swell up > quite a bit so we took him to the vets. Turns out his abdomen was full > of fluid Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first* and most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced by different causes. So, determining the type of fluid might help determine the cause that's producing the fluid or at least narrow down the possibilities. Draining the fluid from his abdomen (abdomenocentesis) will make him feel much better. and possibly his liver was slightly large. Blood tests were > done for liver problems, cancer, thyroid, and all turned up negative. Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important. > We had x-rays and scans By "scans", do you mean ultrasounds? If so, was his heart scanned (echocardiogram)? If not I suggest getting an echocardiogram. Heart disease can produce fluid while the bloodwork is normal. done but nothing could be found (due possibly > to the fluid). Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances* sonograms by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better views. > At the time (and still is), he was very hungry all the time and gulped > down his food. Also, he was always wanting more and more food. At the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of steroids to try and get rid of his fluid but nothing has worked. If > anything hes got even more swollen. Without having the fluid analyzed, steroids are a *very* bad idea. I strongly suggest you find another vet *as soon possible*. Be sure to get a copy of *all* your cat's medical records. > Hes now having a little difficulty gettung around and wont fit through > the catflap. Also, he seems to be getting more hungry and increasingly > anxious about food. The steroids are probably increasing his appetite- that's one of the side effects that steroids produce in cats. > Also, he seems to be getting lots and lots of diarhoea now which is > happening every day. Also, hes not making it outside and is doing it in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Vet has suggested maybe an exploratory operation but I'm not sure about > that idea. He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*. > He does seem to be getting steadily more unhappy so I'm not sure if its > time for him to go quietly rather than put up with more. Please don't even consider euthanasia until you get a definitive diagnosis. His condition is probably treatable under the care of a competent vet- which your present vet *is not*. > Anyone got any comments? I would keep him indoors at all times until his condition resolves. Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable. If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there is. If you can't find an ACVIM specialist in your area, my second choice would be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/finddiplomate.aspx Please do not delay in finding another vet. Best of luck, Phil > Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an > echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary > Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/finddiplomate.aspx The first URL does not work so went with the second. In my state of Pennsylvania there are only 5 listed for ANY category of animal. And none in the biggest city of Philadelphia which has the Penn Vet School. I'm shocked. http://www.acvim.org/uploadedFiles/pdfs/Directory/SAIM_Geo.pdf the above lists all the diplomates with ACVIM, small animals, internal medicine. and now here there is a huge amount from Philly. what gives? Is ACVIM more popular and ABVP a rival org? I've noticed for people rival diplomate ratings, the older American College of Physicians verus the whatever. And DOs vs MDs with their board ratings. Bunch of quacks. This is what I did for treating a parrot. Now I found one of two avian specialists in my state at that time, as I recall, who were board certified. One was a teacher of board certified vets. She knew her stuff. But her physical handling was clumsy. So now needed two vets. One who could handle the delicate birds although not board certified and one, board certified, who could relish the difficult questions about treating relatively rare parrots. > > Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an > > echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > The first URL does not work Thanks. Here's the new link: http://www.acvim.org/Specialist/Search.aspx > Is ACVIM more popular and ABVP a rival org? Yup. ACVIM is more prestigious even though ABVP certification is more complicated. > Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first* and > most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced by > different causes. So, determining the type of fluid might help determine > the cause that's producing the fluid or at least narrow down the > possibilities. Yes. Nothing found. > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (echocardiogram)? If not I suggest getting an echocardiogram. Heart > disease can produce fluid while the bloodwork is normal. Ultrasounds. > Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances* sonograms > by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be > positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better > views. Yes. Vet told us this. > He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid > analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*. > > Please find another vet and have the fluid analyzed and order an > echocardiogram. While the vet is drawing fluid for analysis, he can remove > most of the fluid which will make your cat much more comfortable. Vet said he is unable to remove the fluid. > If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your > area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a > search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American > College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there > is. I'm in the UK. Paul I hope this link helps http://www.h4ha.org/vetnet/United_Kingdom/6-0.html > Paul I hope this link helps > http://www.h4ha.org/vetnet/United_Kingdom/6-0.html Nothing in Wales at all !!! Paul this is a link to vet centers in your area Wales { - South Yorkshire} http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/find/business/business_number s.publisha?NAM=Vets&LOC=Wales+%7b+-+South+Yorkshire%7d+&CLASSCODE=A00687&AREACOD E=24666&PreviousAreaCode=24666&PreviousLocation=Wales+%7b+-+South+Yorkshire%7d+& SearchType=type&Searched=Y this is the area of Cardiff Wales Airport { - Vale Of Glamorgan} http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en/find/business/business_number s.publisha?NAM=Vets&LOC=Cardiff+Wales+Airport+%7b+-+Vale+Of+Glamorgan%7d+&CLASSC ODE=A00687&AREACODE=30149&PreviousAreaCode=30149&PreviousLocation=Cardiff+Wales+ Airport+%7b+-+Vale+Of+Glamorgan%7d+&SearchType=type&Searched=Y I hope this will help keep us posted > Nothing in Wales at all !!! Paul, if you're in the Cardiff area, use the Cat Clinic in Llanishen - he's who I use for my guys. A guy called Mike Edwards. He's good. Otherwise, use Susan Baxter at the Park Veterinary Group in Sanatorium Road, Cardiff. You're also pretty close to Bristol University Vet school. HTH Helen M Is this of any help? Park Issa Veterinary Hospital Tel. 01691 670067 Park Issa Salop Rd, Oswestry, SY11 2RL Gatehouse Veterinary Hospital Tel. 01244 570364 Lavister, LL12 0DF Grange Veterinary Hospital Tel. 01352 700087 Tyddyn St, Mold, CH7 1DX http://www.willowsveterinarygroup.co.uk/ Is there a veterinary teaching college in Wales? I couldn't find any info on one. The closest seems to be in London. > > Did the vet draw a sample of the fluid for analysis? That's the *first* and > > most important step. There are several types of fluid that are produced by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes. Nothing found. That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid *analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate, Modified Transudate, Non Septic Exudate, Septic Exudate, Neoplastic, Chylous, Hemorrhagic. Certain types of fluids are associated with specific disease processes. Determining the *type* of fluid might help you identify the disease that's producing the fluid. Once you identify the disease that's producing the fluid, you can develop a therapeutic plan to treat the disease. Your vet should have explained this to you. > > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ultrasounds. Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed? > > Did the vet tell you that? Fluid hampers x-rays but it *enhances* sonograms > > by producing an "acoustic window". In fact, the cat's body can be > > positioned to make the fluid move into different areas to produce better > > views. > > Yes. Vet told us this. Then your vet is *incompetent*. You better find another vet ASAP before his incompetence and ignorance kills your cat. The fluid would have *improved* the sonogram. > > He shouldn't even consider exploratory surgery without having the fluid > > analyzed! *Please* find another vet *ASAP*. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vet said he is unable to remove the fluid. Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is a *common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)- the cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized. > > If you need help locating a board-certified veterinary internist in your > > area, please go to: http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm in the UK. Your reply wasn't very informative or encouraging. You need to find another vet ASAP. > That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid > *analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that's producing the fluid, you can develop a therapeutic plan to treat the > disease. Your vet should have explained this to you. Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth but not sure what else. > > > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important. Dont' know. > Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed? Not the heart. > Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is a > *common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)- the > cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized. something to do with the fluid notbeing all in one place but in 'pockets' ??? > Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth > but not sure what else. Paul, if you love this cat and want to save him you need to find a better vet--a small animal vet, not a cow vet--and pay attention to what he does and says. If it is not that important I imagine you will euthanize. But since you came here for help, I am hoping this cat is important enough to you that you will put forth the effort and get him the help he needs from a vet that cares and knows what he is doing. > > That's not what I asked you. I asked you if the vet had the fluid > > *analyzed* to determine which *type* of fluid it is. E.g., Transudate, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Not sure. I know they drew off some fluid to check for cancerous growth > but not sure what else. I suggest you ask your vet if he had the fluid analyzed and if the *type* was determined. I don't think you understand how important this is. Determining the type of fluid might pinpoint the process that's causing it. Do you understand that? > > > > Were his serum albumin levels normal? Very important. > > Dont' know. I suggest you find out because its *very* important --low serum albumin causes the the fluid to leak out the blood and form effusions in body cavities. > > Of what? Was your cat's heart echoed? > > Not the heart. I suggest you order an echo as soon as possible. Heart disease can produce fluid. > > Why did he say he is unable to remove the fluid??? Abdomenocentesis is a > > *common* 15 minute procedure that's minimally invasive (just a needle)- the > > cat doesn't even need to be anesthetized. > > something to do with the fluid notbeing all in one place but in > 'pockets' ??? Find out what your cat's albumin levels are and have the fluid *analyzed* and *typed*. Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a large animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet. "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote : > Are there any other vets in your area? The one you have sounds like a large > animal vet- or an incompetent small animal vet. I am not sure if the OP actually stated this or not, but that is my impression, too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small animals. > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > too. There seems to be a "well, who cares how badly, it's broken, get > another one" tone to diagnoses when large animal vets treat small animals. If the OP is describing the vet's 'diagnostic plan' accurately- the vet is obviously clueless about cats. Aggravating as hell. > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote : > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Aggravating as hell. It is. I just got home from taking my little asthmatic EGC allergic tabby girl to the vet, and discussed the attitude of rural large-animal vets with one of the techs there who used to work with one. She agrees and said that in vet school those intending to go into small animal practice are trained in the psychology involved in dealing with beloved pets, while those intending a large animal practice are not. (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25 last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids on her food bowl! Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her third and last this year--she usually just gets two. The vet said there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly moldy fall here in the swamps.) > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25 > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids > on her food bowl! Sisters are such a pain! :) > Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses > are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma > episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her > third and last this year--she usually just gets two. The vet said > there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly > moldy fall here in the swamps.) Glad you caught it early and that her lungs are good. I've never dealt with an asthmatic cat -- sounds like it's something you really have to stay on top of. Abernathy swallows a lot while purring, did you say that is a sign? We had a cat that drooled when purring, I just thought Abernathy's doing the same thing but with his mouth closed. Rhonda > > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25 > > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids > > on her food bowl! > > Sisters are such a pain! :) Especially assertive ones! We call her sister the Tuxedo Terrorist. :) > > Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses > > are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I've never dealt with an asthmatic cat -- sounds like it's something you > really have to stay on top of. It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years before I was. And of course I am allergic to cats. It just figures, doesn't it? In my limited understanding, asthma goes hand-in-hand with allergies. Both are heightened immune responses--immune systems that "work too well," in a manner of speaking. The good thing is that the body responds strongly to an irritant--the bad thing is that the reponse can harm the asthma/allergy sufferer. Inflammation to the point that no air moves out or into the lungs, swelling that closes the air passages of the throat. Key concepts: 1. prevention in the form of limiting allergens, or in the case of asthma, triggers. There is no mistaking a trigger in humans--it is what happens before it all shuts down and we don't get enough oxygen. But in cats it is harder to know as we are not in their little heads and they can't tell us. Common triggers are cold, smoke, perfumes, and dust. But allergens can also be triggers as can stress. An upset person or cat can experience that "clamp down" that means no air is getting in or out. 2. treatment/prevention in the form of steroids. Advair for me, Depo medrol for my kitty. There are others for both species. 3. rescue inhalers for humans, aerokat for cats. > Abernathy swallows a lot while purring, did you say that is a sign? We > had a cat that drooled when purring, I just thought Abernathy's doing > the same thing but with his mouth closed. Swallowing a lot while purring is something I take as a sign of congestion. The vet today told me that I am right in my cat's case, but that it was just head congestion and had not affected her lungs. Maybe your boy is just allergic, or maybe just nervous. He might be having a reaction to his medication. You will know if he has asthma. He will hunch and have a deep cough, his neck forward and down, the tip of his tongue out. You're the kind of cat person who will not miss this, I feel certain of it. > It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly > deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years > before I was. And of course I am allergic to cats. It just figures, doesn't > it? Most people that are allergic to cats are actually allergic to the protein cats secrete, Felis domesticus (Feld I). I read an article from the Northeast Veterinary Conference that said ECG in cats might be an allergic reaction to the same protein as if it was an exogenous allergen. IOW, Feld 1 might be an autoallergen for some cats as it is an allergen for some people! Here's an excerpt from the article: "A recent article suggest that Felis domesticus allergen I (Feld I) could be an autoallergen responsible for chronic inflammatory reactions in cats with EGC. Cat skin may respond with eosinophils to as diverse a group of diseases as allergies, pemphigus, neoplasia, or pyoderma. Specific histological as well as clinical guidelines must be used to make the diagnosis of EGC. " And here's the abstract from the study that supports the article: Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):338-41. Evaluation of Felis domesticus allergen I as a possible autoallergen in cats with eosinophilic granuloma complex. Wisselink MA, van Ree R, Willemse T. Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Utrecht, The Netherlands. "OBJECTIVE: To investigate the role of Felis domesticus allergen I (Feld I) in the pathogenesis of eosinophilic granuloma complex (EGC) in cats. ANIMALS: 7 healthy cats and 6 cats with EGC. PROCEDURE: Epidermis was removed from 4 areas. Rubber stoppers filled with Feld I, saline (0.9% NaCl) solution, and PBS solution were glued to the skin lesions and removed 48 hours later. Fluid within each stopper was collected. Biopsy specimens were obtained at each site, snap frozen, and stored at -70 C. Total and differential numbers of cells in fluid were counted. Biopsy specimens were stained by use of monoclonal antibodies against feline CD4, CD8 and CD3. Data were analyzed by use of multivariate repeated-measures analysis. RESULTS: Healthy cats had a significant increase in number of CD3+ cells, compared with number of CD4+ and CD8+ cells, and Feld I caused a significant increase in number of CD3+ cells, compared with PBS or saline solutions. Cats with EGC had a significant increase in number of CD3+ cells, compared with number of CD4+ and CD8+ cells, and Feld I caused a significant increase in number of CD3+ and CD4+ cells, compared with PBS or saline solutions. Cats with EGC had an increased CD4+ response, a significantly decreased CD8+ response, and a significantly increased CD4-to-CD8 ratio compared with healthy cats. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The increased CD4+ response, significantly decreased CD8+ response, and significantly increased CD4-to-CD8 ratio are comparable to results in atopic people and allergic cats. Therefore, Feld I could be an autoallergen responsible for chronic inflammatory reactions in cats with EGC." Very interesting, isn't it? Show this to your vet and MD. Wiping your cat down with a damp cloth then drying her off might reduce the Feld 1 accumulation on her skin>> which might reduce her symptoms. Since you both might be allergic to same allergen, ask your vet if he'll give you a "family discount" on the shots! ;-) Just kidding. Phil > > It is an odd disease. Very common, yet if not managed, perfectly > > deadly. For humans and cats. My girl was diagnosed two years [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1 > might be an autoallergen for some cats as it is an allergen for some people! [snips article] > Very interesting, isn't it? It really is. So she may be allergic to the same thing on her that *I* am! >Show this to your vet and MD. Wiping your cat > down with a damp cloth then drying her off might reduce the Feld 1 > accumulation on her skin>> which might reduce her symptoms. > > Since you both might be allergic to same allergen, ask your vet if he'll > give you a "family discount" on the shots! ;-) Just kidding. I wish you weren't, at least my vet would charge less than my doctor for treatment! But I have not progressed to shots yet, Claritin keeps me comfortable most of the time, in conjunction with the Advair I take for the asthma. As for kitty, I will indeed make wiping her down part of our nightly love fest! > > "Lumpy" <cattoy@cattoy.net> wrote in message > news:436a2a55_2@x-privat.org... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > practice are trained in the psychology involved in dealing with beloved > pets, while those intending a large animal practice are not. Animals to LA vets are nothing more than commodities- unless its a bull or a stud. They seem to lack sensitivity for cats and dogs- that's just the impression I got from the few I've met. Maybe some are different- don't know- I don't go out of my way to meet LA vets. > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25 > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids > on her food bowl! Also, her lungs sound good, just her sinuses > are a bit congested--but as this sometimes precipitates an asthma > episode we decided to give her a pre-emptive Depo shot. This will be her > third and last this year--she usually just gets two. Have you tried inhaled Flovent? Systemic steroids effect every cell in the body- so I try to avoid them as much as possible. I'll only use them if there's no alternative. Somes vets at U of Minn think there might be a connection between long-acting steroids (Depo-Medrol)and congestive heart failure in cats. I'm trying to get more information- when I do, I'll pass it on. The vet said > there are lots of cats coming in with attacks due to a particularly > moldy fall here in the swamps.) Years ago I lived and worked in swamps where the humidity so high that clothes started to rot while I was still wearing them! The mosquitoes were so big we'll called them "Bay Nam Hai" = after the B-52 bombers! "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote> > Animals to LA vets are nothing more than commodities- unless its a bull or a > stud. They seem to lack sensitivity for cats and dogs- that's just the > impression I got from the few I've met. Maybe some are different- don't > know- I don't go out of my way to meet LA vets. Their general attitude is probably fine for what they do--and a reflection of that of many of the farmers they deal with every day. It is just when someone brings beloved pet to them that there is a problem. Most large animal vets would look at the little tabby I find totally irreplaceable, and knowing that fully most cats look and act just like her, think I am crazy. > > (P.S. Our little girl is now up to a whopping 7.5 pounds from 7.25 > > last July. I attribute it to my intercepting her sister's stealth raids [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > body- so I try to avoid them as much as possible. I'll only use them if > there's no alternative. Phil, I have put it off but I am going to get the Aerokat inhaler this year when I begin ordering the online Christmas gifts. I assume this is how you administer the Flovent? You made me aware early on of the dangers of systemic steroids as did my vets--and I did listen--but this cat has not only asthma but EGC that responds very well to only two shots a year. My vets feel that 2-3 shots a year do not pose a significant threat with regard to side effects such as diabetes. At the same time, I want an inhalable treatment to ease my mind when she coughs at home, and to KEEP the shots to a minimum. (She had no linear granuloma presenting on her legs yesterday, and no ulcer or other sign of EGC other than her usual itchiness. So, yes, this would be a good time to look into just using an inhaler when she only presents with asthma and allergy symptoms.) > Somes vets at U of Minn think there might be a connection between > long-acting steroids (Depo-Medrol)and congestive heart failure in cats. I'm > trying to get more information- when I do, I'll pass it on. I had not heard that. Very scary. I will look forward to your update. Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I can be sure whats going on. > Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I > can be sure whats going on. A really good idea. Let us know. Think I'll visit the vet and ask him for a printout of the notes so I can be sure whats going on. Several things can cause an increased appetite, not just an increased appetite but a cat always at the food dish, one is a hormonal imbalance and the other is hyperthyroidism. Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used. The other thing is that because of that, the body tends to lose the vitamin called Riboflavin because it uses it up so fast because of hyperthyroidism it wants more and more and more. It gets hungry for it. Is that what is happening with your cat? He feels that if he eats and eats and eats he will satisfy that need for Riboflavin? The fluid accumulation and enlarged liver could also stem from all of this overeating. The system just can't take and process all of that food especially in an older cat or it starts breaking down. If you could find a homeopathic vet in your area ( www.ahvma.org/referral.html) he or she might be able to find out whether this is the problem or not. If it is, it's so easily fixed. Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area: www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html > Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area: > > www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter is quackery. > > Here is the correct address to locate a holistic vet in your area: > > > > www.ahvma.org/referral/index.html > > Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter > is quackery. Quackery though in a placebo sense. Not too long ago many quacks or docs gave out sugar pills as a form of therapy and to keep the patients happy and the money coming in. It's about the same. The quackery comes in with the nonsense that something is happening but it's a catch-22. If you tell the truth, the charm goes out of the placebo effect. > > Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter > > is quackery. > > Quackery though in a placebo sense. Not too long ago many quacks or > docs gave out sugar pills as a form of therapy and to keep the patients > happy and the money coming in. It's about the same. No it isn't. Placebos are given to 'treat' psychosomatic 'illnesses' that don't actually exist- other than in the patient's mind. Homeopathic concoctions are used to treat *real* diseases. Homeopathy may not be dangerous in and of itself because the 'formulations' themselves contain nothing but a wish. However, homeopathy is dangerous when its used in place of real medicine and delays timely treatment. > Several things can cause an increased appetite, not just an increased > appetite but a cat always at the food dish, one is a hormonal imbalance > and the other is hyperthyroidism. Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and > surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. That's utter nonsense! Hyperthyroidism in cats is most often (98%) caused by a benign , functional, adenomatous hyperplasia of one or both lobes of the thyroid gland. The remaining 2% are caused by thyroid carcinomas. "Bunch of sludge"- "parsley"-- give me a break! There's > also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used. Yeah, snake oil and blessed water. > The fluid accumulation and enlarged liver could also stem from all of this overeating. Where do you get this nonsense from? Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and > surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's > also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used./// What a pile of crap. Tell me. Is "Sludge" a technical veterinary term? Helen M > Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come > > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and > > surprisingly too, parsley will help to clean off that sludge. There's > > also thyroid drops that homeoapthic vets give that is used./// > > What a pile of crap. Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that? > Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that? Because RPCA doesn't discuss health issues in the same way, and it's rarely called for. If you google my posts in RPCA, you'll find that on occasion I *have* called people on talking B.S. Helen M > > Hey! You don't talk this way in rec.pets.cats.anecotes. Why is that? > > Because RPCA doesn't discuss health issues in the same way, and it's > rarely called for. If you google my posts in RPCA, you'll find that on > occasion I *have* called people on talking B.S. But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended. You just surprised me. > But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended. > You just surprised me./// Trust me, if someone there posted an equal amount of rubbish, I'd probably use the same phrase. ;o) I tried to look at homeopathy before I started being sceptical, so that I could make an informed choice not to use it. I even went on a week long course to learn about its use. Biggest load of hookum I have *ever* come across. I have used holistic veterinary medicine like accupuncture very successfully on animals, but homeopathy has a long, long way to go to convince me of its benefit. I think I realised what a pile of crap homeopathy was when the "lecturer" tried to convince me that I had to bang a conconction on a bible something like 43 times, turn it to the right and chant "magic words" to have it take effect. I'm not saying all vets are amazing and can't make mistakes, but homeopathy has the potential to be exceptionally harmful because of a mistaken belief that it will work. Helen M > > But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended. > > You just surprised me./// [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > homeopathy has the potential to be exceptionally harmful because of a > mistaken belief that it will work. I agree with you, Helen. I understand the well-meaning impulse toward "all natural" practices, but often times the practice seems steeped in some sort of romantic "back to nature" hooey that is in and of itself a load of crap because fully MOST potent medicines doctors and vets prescribe derive from "natural" materials such as plants and animal extracts. And that is just one issue. i will put a word in for homeopathy. i have had experience only with human homeopathy, not pet homeopathy. I have been to both a homeopathy 'quack' who often made you worse rather than better, i think she did a mail order course or something. however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine, and bone manipulation. he approaches health in a scientific, holistic way, with a good deal of common sense and definitely would not bang something on a bible 45 times, turn to the right and say magic words. In my experience, i have found homeopathy to be great for things such as digestive problems, depression, joint problems, asthma and childhood illnesses. however the homeopathist we go to uses all of the methods and his considerable knowledge of alternative medidicne to treat patients. Neither he nor the australian homeopathic council (or whatever it's called- the governing body) reccomend using homeopathy as a replacement to conventional medicine, especially in serious diseases, but recommend it's use as a complementary treatment. My sister uses normal asthma medications in conjunction with homeopathic remedies, which works extremely well for her. Homeopathy is designed to treat the underlying weaknesses that allow disease in, more than the specific disease itself. I agree that homeopathy should NEVER be used as a replacement for a vet, however if you want to try it as a complement or to relieve minor things, aches and pains, etc do your research and DON"T be taken in by an untrained or misinformed quack. Contact your national governing body, not a 'homeopathic society' or anything, but a legit governing council or something, and proceed with common sense. SignatureThere are many intelligent species in the Universe. They are all owned by cats. Anonymous One cat just leads to another. -Ernest Hemingway > > But not using the phrase "load of crap," I will bet. :) No offense intended. > > You just surprised me./// [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Helen M however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his > degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine, and > bone manipulation. he approaches health in a scientific, holistic way, with > a good deal of common sense and definitely would not bang something on a > bible 45 times, turn to the right and say magic words//// You've hit the nail on the head there with the words "scientific", "holistic" and common sense. I've used chinese medicine very successfully for migraine and arthritis as a complimentary treatment and am "open" to homeopathy. I am just very sceptical of a lot of stuff. > Neither he nor the australian > homeopathic council (or whatever it's called- the governing body) reccomend > using homeopathy as a replacement to conventional medicine, especially in > serious diseases, but recommend it's use as a complementary treatment./// See, that's where you've said it again. "Complimentary treatment". It's BRILLIANT as a complementary treatment, and often helps with reduction of symptoms. >I agree that homeopathy should NEVER be used as a > replacement for a vet, however if you want to try it as a complement or to > relieve minor things, aches and pains, etc do your research and DON"T be > taken in by an untrained or misinformed quack. Contact your national > governing body, not a 'homeopathic society' or anything, but a legit > governing council or something, and proceed with common sense./// This is the problem though. I'm a sceptic to a great extent, simply because there are so many "quacks" out there and they can end up doing way more harm than good. The reason i tried to explore it fully, was because I *like* the idea of using homeopathic treatments rather than conventional medicine. However, in the "veterinary world" I've not once seen a situation where it's worked, and I've seen many cases where the animal has been poisoned by it. Helen M > however i'vce also been to a homeopath who did all his > > degrees, also in bach flower remedies, naturopathy, chinese medicine, and [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Helen M In humans, a lot of "homeopathic" or "alternative" medical techniques work simply because of the belief in them - the more a patient believes something will work, the more it will (the same reason voodoo actually worked on those who truly believed in curses). The problem with taking those practices to animals is that animals don't know they're supposed to be getting better, so don't! Hugs, CatNipped > Surprisingly, hyperthyroidism can come > > from when the thyroid is plugged with a bunch of sludge and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Helen M The parsley cure was even funnier. I think I'll send her post to an endocrinologist at AMC whose been researching hyperthyroidism in cats for 20 years and tell him he's been wasting his time. LOL! The reason why homeopathic 'remedies' seem to work in some people is because they're diluted so many times with alcohol that the people get drunk and don't feel anything! LOL! Phil This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam done? A fecal exam may not show protozoan parasites lodged in the intestines.They can cause diarrhea, increased appetite and they can take whatever the cat gets in the form of nutrition right out of its system so it has to eat, eat, eat to keep ahead of the parasites. Parasites can also cause fluid in the abdomen too.There are several reasons for ascites in the abdomen but none that I found linked ascites with diarrhea and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines, etc). > This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was > your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines, > etc). You raise an excellent point. I spoke with a woman who worked in the supermarket whose cat in tthree years had been irritable and ailing. She had taken the cat to at least two vets. I suggested parasites based on the scratching of the tummy and loss of hair. She went to a third vet in a big clinic setting and a simple test showed giardia as the parasites. It's difficult to comprehend the incompetence of the early vets who just dismissed the problem as needing to change the food, try a different manufacturer. The cat improved very quickly and nicely and is now pleasant with the other two cats, poor thing. It's not obvious to many vets who don't know that there are parasites in municipal treated water supplies which poses threats, especially those with compromised immune disorders. Very healthy people will throw off these parasites, like giardia or cryptosporidium. Be interesting to hear the OP's reply. My first impulse was, no way, could he miss this possibility. Then I thought of this woman who had taken her cat to supposedly good vets. But some vets are just not good when the cause is not obvious and immediate and requires some thinking, which takes time and vets like many in medicine have only the in and out the door mentality. A function of time and money over all. > This might have been suggested or mentioned in this thread but was > your cat ever tested for intestinal parasites? Worms? Was a fecal exam [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and an increased appetite except parasites( protozoans in the intestines, > etc). I have a question: are you a vet, vet tech, or have any type of medical training? Talk about being a vet tech or vet I read on another forum about a guy who brings his cat in for a distemper shot and the vet techs say theres a tiny bit of wax in the ears but they better clean it out so they do and when the guy gets his cat home after a couple of hours the cat's whole face swells up and when he calls the clinic he can't talk to the vet and everyone is as scarce as hens teeth. Or this , a vet tried to spay a male cat. She opened him up and couldnt find the ovaries. I guess she had skipped the course on genitalia at vet school. Or what about the person who brought a sick cat to the vet and after a bunch of x-rays and bloodtests and MRI's they gave her the sum of all of their years of training and a $2,500.00 answer " we don't know " . Or the person who had surgery done on their dog and after they got the dog home the dog was vomiting blood ,and she phoned the vet who said " give it a couple of days" . After a couple of days she wouldn't have a dog to phone the vet about anymore. And the person on this thread with a sick cat, he went to the vets and was told " we don't know" and he paid how much? Thats why he's here. Because the vets didn't know. He's probably getting more help here than he ever got at the vets. No charge either. If it was only the vets and vet tech who could give suggestions all we'd hear is " we don't know" . Just because they take training, in lots of cases that doesn't mean a thing, without bloodtests and x-rays, if that doens't tell them the answer they say " we don't know". I don't know what other job a person can say that and get paid for it. Phil P. - 11-03-2005 07:58 "Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the latter quackery." Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy. They are holistic vets. If it was " quackery" the AVMA would have revoked their license to practice veterinary medicine. Dr Charles E Loops DVM - "After 10 years of traditional veterinary practice I became tired of having no treatment for chronic disease, incurable conditions, and a plethora of allergic maladies which seem to plague all veterinary practices. I was frustrated with giving animals cortisone because I had no other solutions, or using antibiotics for infections which I knew were of viral origin. At this time I had some chronic health problems, which had been unresolvable allopathically, but they responded to treatment by homeopathy. It took some time but it worked! I have studied extensively and continue to do so. I progressively added homeopathy to my practice over a 4 year period and in February of 1992, I sold this practice so that I could devote myself to veterinary homeopathy exclusively. " Michael Dym, VMD- "We have also failed to address the underlying cause of disease by only sup pressing symptoms with antibiotics, cortisone and related drugs, so the disease progresses and goes deeper. Homeopathy offers a viable alternative in truly curing pets and making their bodies healthier." (Dr. Dym is one of 250 veterinarians in the US trained in classical veterinary homeopathy by Richard Pitcairn, DVM, PhD. Dr. Dym is a presidential scholar graduate from Cornell University with his VMD from Penn. He is an active member of the Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy and the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association.) Jeffry Levy, DVM- ""My clinical practice is devoted exclusively to homeopathic treatment for dogs, cats, and horses. I also teach advanced veterinary homeopathy in seminars around the U.S. Homeopathy is a powerful and sophisticated system of medicine. With homeopathic remedies, I have been successful in treating a wide variety of health problems, including many that are very serious or for which there is no conventional treatment. Treatment with allopathic drugs (antibiotics, steroids, hormones, etc.) should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Corticosteroids (cortisone-type anti-inflammatory drugs) are the most abused and dangerous class of drugs. Not only do they not cure the underlying cause of the problem, they usually make the underlying problem, that is, the real problem, worse. The greatest harm of drug treatment is usually not so much the toxicity or side effects as it is the effects of suppression. Allopathic (conventional Western) medical thinking generally seeks immediate gratification: just make the symptom go away. So the patient may be better in the short term, but is usually worse in the longer term. Homeopathy is just the opposite: sometimes the symptoms are worse in the short term (such as with aggravation or the reversal of a previous suppression), but the real benefit is in the longer term. " Dr. Will Falconer, DVM- "The philosophy of Alternatives for Animal Health is that we work with your animal’s innate healing abilities to achieve an optimal state of health. This is best accomplished by the smooth working together of doctor, care giver, and animal. The doctor depends on you the care giver to carefully watch and report on symptoms. He will use the information you provide to carefully guide the course of homeopathic care for your individual animal. As no two animals are exactly alike, even if they have the same diagnosis, we will focus on how your individual animal manifests illness and health. This uniqueness will guide the treatment according to the clear principals of classical homeopathy. " Phil P. - 03 Nov 2005 20:27 GMT "Homeopathy may not be dangerous in and of itself because the 'formulations' themselves contain nothing but a wish. However, homeopathy is dangerous when its used in place of real medicine and delays timely treatment." Antibiotics? Morton Walker, D.P.M. -"Officials from the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control have reported that the overuse of antibiotics in medicine has created an epidemic of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Doctors fear that if antibiotic use is not curtailed, we may soon approach the day when untreatable infections are rampant. "After 40 years of pushing antibiotics for any ailment, physicians are now confronting bacteria that have built defenses against those same drugs. Some infectious bacteria that were once treatable are stronger and often deadly. The reappearance of highly infectious bacteria is caused in part by the overuse and misuse of antibiotics, but the resilience of bacteria also stems from the ingenious biochemistry of the microorganisms themselves. To survive, microorganisms and fungi mutate into resistant strains." Morton Walker, D.P.M. Richard H. Bennett, Ph.D - "For decades, the approach to maintaining healthy animals was to wait for signs and symptoms of disease to occur and to counter the challenge with an array of drugs which were toxic for the disease causing agent. This approach is now being questioned as the armada of drugs is diminishing due to multiple drug resistant pathogens. Compounding this alarming trend is the current approach to health maintenance which assumes that "all is well" until actual disease processes begin. By this time, the disease is established, sometimes irreversibly, and the damage has occurred. Rimadyl? http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadyl.ose.html http://rimadyldeath.com/ http://www.alliemax.homestead.com/rimadyl.html Prednisone and other steroids? http://members.tripod.com/%7EUrsulaKelly/steroids.htm http://www.felinecompanions.homestead.com/steroids.html Concerning the use of thyroid drops: Phil P. - 03 Nov 2005 07:57 GMT "Yeah, snake oil and blessed water." Perhaps you could let Professional Health Products who make that product for medical doctors and vets know that. The product is called Thyrodrops. http://www.phpltd.com/ > Phil P. - 11-03-2005 07:58 > > "Holistic and homeopathy are not the same- the former is credible- the > latter quackery." > > Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy. Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this group very long- most of the participants know better. I though your post about "thyroid sludge" and "parsley" was hilarious! Got any more wonder cures that vet med missed? LOL! Wanna buy a Rolex, cheap? > Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this group > very long- most of the participants know better. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Wanna buy a Rolex, cheap? I've never done that although I have seen people who bought counterfeits for fun, paying $10 or $20. Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect? I thought that cats would tune into their partners and if the owner thought it would do good, then the cat would follow the owner's mistaken instincts. Cats are a bit psychic and may pick up on the placebo effect which is real. Why? Most illnesses will go away by themselves, especially if given a here's hope mandate. I have suspected that my cat follows my internal guidelines. If I am calm, then she tends to be calm. Once she got her paw caught in the air conditioner's vent and let out the most awful, panicky cry. I just petted her quickly while I reached over to get a big leather glove so she would not shred me to death if I had to manhandle her. But instantly she relaxed [quite amazing, her muscles relaxed very noticeably] because I was not overly concerned & turned her paw just so to free herself. Whew. > > Then they're practicing quackery. Homeopathy doesn't survive in this group > > very long- most of the participants know better. > > > > I though your post about "thyroid sludge" and "parsley" was hilarious! Got > > any more wonder cures that vet med missed? LOL! <snip> > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect? Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels in a hyperthyroid cat??? > > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect? > Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels in a > hyperthyroid cat??? Unfortunately, nope. I was saying that most illnesses are self-curing. For people and for felines. But there are those that are not. For example, Stage One Diabetes. Nothing will work when the body produces absolutely no insulin. So all the placeboes will do nothing unless they contain insulin. For a moment, I thought you said hypothyroid. Stress can affect the reduction of thryoid. I don't know about the over-production. Can stress affect that? If so, then the placebo might have an effect. If the over-production is due to a disease with the thyroid gland, nope. Do they use what in a cat? Do they have an equivalent Armour product? Is that as cheap for felines as it is for people? Or do they prefer the expensive synthetics that don't seem as good as the natural piggie product? The synthetics can be 10 times the price of the natural, proven product which has been around for a century? And the synthetics, the T3 ones, appear to have production problems in their manufacturing. Do they give just a synthetic, like Synthroid, for T4 regulation and not T3 too? Do they monitor the feline's temperature as a way to regulate this? > > > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect? > > > Absolutely. Do you actually believe a placebo would control T4 levels in a > > hyperthyroid cat??? > > Unfortunately, nope. I was saying that most illnesses are self-curing. That's what the homeoquacks play on. "Here's a magic cure for the common cold- take one swig and your cold will be cured in 2-3 weeks". LOL! > Are you saying that the felines don't respond to the placebo effect? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > placebo effect which is real. Why? Most illnesses will go away by > themselves, especially if given a here's hope mandate. The cat could also be responding positively to simply getting some extra attention from the owner. But I'd still totaly loose respect for any vet who tried to peddle a bottle of expensive water for what's ailing my cats. > Each of the vets listed and many more are practising homeopathy. They > are holistic vets. If it was " quackery" the AVMA would have revoked > their license to practice veterinary medicine. Hi Ojaeri, Thanks for listing these. I have a cat with asthma and we have been seeing a holistic vet who is giving her a natural cortisone. This is the first treatment we've used that has ever completely stopped any attacks from occurring. We are also treating her immune system nutritionally. As to homeopathy, I have never had success with it in animals, although some people swear by it. I think animals are very hard to treat that way because they can be very hard to repertorize. Have you ever read Dr. Don Hamilton's book? Interesting read you might enjoy. Take care, Lauren parsly. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and for a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole. > parsly. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and for > a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from > tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard > about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more > hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole. How did you figure that one out? That's really good to know and I filed this away in my cat file on the compter. Now can I trouble you for the opposite? What do you recommend for hypothyroidism or low thyoid output? > parsley. it works. my cAT had hyperthyroidsm caus the vet said so and for > a long time and the liver and kidneys were getting all damaged from > tapazole and vet said nothing could be done and put up with it so i heard > about parsly and how it worked. my cat is all better now. no more > hyperthroidsm and no more tapazole. If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have hyperthyroidism. I think you should take your cat to a *real* vet and her T4 levels checked by a *real* lab *real* soon. > Our cat, Neil, is now nearly 12 years old and has been not well for > about 6 months./// Paul, where in the UK are you based? The Veterinary college hospitals all take primary care cases so you shouldn't need to get a referal. Alternatively, if you're within driving distance of Newmarket, use the Animal Health Trust - they are awesome. Helen M Phil wrote If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have hyperthyroidism. I think you should take your cat to a *real* vet and her T4 levels checked by a *real* lab *real* soon. >Phil And what kind of " real" vet would that be, the one that tried to spay a male cat or the one that left one ovary in ? And what kind of "real lab would that be, the kind that misdiagnosed Cushing's disease in a dog and called it heart disease and gave " real" medicine, the wrong medicine, and by the time they wisened up it was too late" . Or are you talking about the " real" vet who left a person's dog to die on the examining table, left there 8 hours alone because they tried to get the owner to put the dog down saying it was cancer but the owner insisted on other tests. They refused. After, the clinic wanted a hasty cremation but the owner took her dog elsewhere. An autopsy was done and it was a preforated stomach, the dog could have been saved. Or maybe you're talking about the " real" vet who used " real " medicine to prescribe medication for a dog who limped, saying it was a sprained muscle. The dog had neck disc disease as was found out later by a specialist. But , hey, the medicine was " real" right? But either way, the vets got paid right? They get paid when they're right, they get paid when they don't know what the answer is, they get paid when they make a mistake and a sicker pet is brought back to them now twice as sick , they get paid when they overdose, and misdiagnose, yeah, they're " real" all right and so is the pain and suffering they cause. Don't hear you yelling about that, oh, yeah, you're probably a vech tech.. Indignation over parsley ? Conventional medicine has done more damage than parsley will ever do and you know it. If you don't, you're not a vet tech. It looks like you're running scared. Laughing and ridiculing things you know nothing about hoping that others will follow suit and discredit it too. They're a little smarter than that. Your way is outmoded and outdated. Your way is going the way of the dinosaurs. It's done far too much damage for far too long, and the vets who know it and care, change rather than continue to do the damage. Those who jeer and discredit are just running scared. They're more concerned for themselves than the animals in their care. No one you'd want your pets going to no matter how " real" they say they are. > And what kind of " real" vet would that be, the one that tried to spay a > male cat or the one that left one ovary in ? My real veterinarian's never done anything like that, actually, nor have any of his colleagues. I would suspect that not doing anything like that is the rule rather than the exception. SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ > Phil wrote > If parsley cured your cat's hyperthyroidism, your cat didn't have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And what kind of " real" vet would that be, One that doesn't proclaim parsley as a cure for hyperthyroidism or sell concoctions in which the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times (that's a 30X dilution)- the equivalent of making an extra dry martini by placing a bottle of gin a few feet away from a drop of vermouth and letting the spirits of the liquors join in la la land. LOL! I missed all this the first time because I was laughing so hard. > you're probably a vech tech.. You're probably wrong. Indignation > over parsley ? Actually, I like parsley--- in my tomato sauce. Conventional medicine has done more damage than parsley will > ever do and you know it. That's an asinine statement. Conventional medicine has saved more lives than parsley ever will. So there! LOL! > If you don't, you're not a vet tech. I know. It looks like > you're running scared. Naaa- its more like I'm laughing at some people's stupidity and gullibility. Laughing and ridiculing things you know nothing about > hoping that others will follow suit and discredit it too. I know enough about homeopathy to LMAO at it-- probably more than you since I don't believe it and you do. You've proven P.T. Barnum right. They're a little > smarter than that. Your way is outmoded and outdated. Your way is going the > way of the dinosaurs. I think you're way is going straight to the monkey house. It's done far too much damage for far too long, and the > vets who know it and care, change rather than continue to do the damage. Homeopaths are vets who couldn't make it in real medicine without a gimmick or an angle. > Those who jeer and discredit are just running scared. You're damn right! I'm scared of homeopathy because it delays or precludes the administration of *real* medicine in the early stages of illness when *real* treatment is most effective. You remind me of a Mooney? Do you know who they were? > going to no matter how " real" they say they are. You're ranting would have a little more credence (say .00000000000000001 % ) if you responded to the correct message instead of the wrong one like you did. Not all regular vets screw up - just the ones that you posted these "supposed" errors about. I would ask if you have any online documentation or otherwise of these errors - especially versus the non-error rate and vets who don't screw up - but I know you don't have any or won't produce it anyway. > > going to no matter how " real" they say they are. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > non-error rate and vets who don't screw up - but I know you don't have > any or won't produce it anyway. unfortunately the real numbers are not kept. i have had some awful experiences with vets. there are some good vets but a lot are not g |
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