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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2005Another trip to the ER
Poor Kami, every say "awwwww." I got home yesterday and found her scrunched up under the desk and practically screaming. I thought maybe she had injured herself, but then I could see she was clamping at the tail end. And she's never done this before--ever--but she got up and squatted right there and passed two drops of bloody urine. Another infection, and a bad one. She was fine when I left that morning. If I had come straight home I could have taken her to her own vet, but believe it or not I stopped there on my way to get a bag of k/d. There was a wait and in that amount of time I would have gone home, found her, and swept her off to the vet before they closed. Instead, we had to drive to the more expensive ER, after, of course, she tried to take off my arm for, first, touching her at all when she was so upset, and second, putting her in the carrier. Anyway, When we got to the vet, I told them that the last time what they diagnosed as UTI was determined to be a kidney infection, and if they can't get enough urine for a sample, to treat for kidney if only because she tolerates the Baytril more than the Clavamox. I turned into one of *those* parents. In the end, and $255 later, she got a shot of antibiotics, a shot of steroids, and sub-q. I actually asked them to do the sub-q even though it was pricey because I just didn't want to be the bad guy last night. I was concerned that we were going to have a food problem now and she would really get into trouble, but when we got home, she was a lot more comfortable and she snarfed her food. Now I get to give her a pill everyday for two weeks. What fun. ;)  SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? poor Kami, hope she gets better soon and that you don't suffer too much harm in giving the medication! SignatureSandra > Poor Kami, every say "awwwww." I got home yesterday and found her > scrunched up under the desk and practically screaming. I thought maybe [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Now I get to give her a pill everyday for two weeks. What fun. ;) Heartfelt purrs for Kami -- may she get a quick cure, poor baby! MLB mlbriggs <mlbriggs@nospam.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> In the end, and $255 later, she got a shot of antibiotics, a shot >> of steroids, and sub-q. I actually asked them to do the sub-q [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Heartfelt purrs for Kami -- may she get a quick cure, poor baby! > MLB Well, the first pill... is in the garbage because she spat it out so many times is was dissolving and probably tasted nasty. What's funny is they're purple coated, and each time she spat it out it landed in her ruff. Now she has a purple stained front. LOL! But we got the next one in first try. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > Poor Kami, every say "awwwww." I got home yesterday and found her > scrunched up under the desk and practically screaming. I thought [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > urine. Another infection, and a bad one. She was fine when I left > that morning. Wow, it's scary that they can get that sick that fast. I hope she will be good as new in no time, poor girl. Candace > If I had come straight home I could have taken her to her own vet, > but believe it or not I stopped there on my way to get a bag of k/d. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > she tried to take off my arm for, first, touching her at all when > she was so upset, and second, putting her in the carrier. Poor Kami, I hope she feels better soon. SignatureTo email (remove annoying hyphens) j-u-l-i at e-c-t-dot-o-r-g I don't know if you can do it but this works for me. I crush Otis's tablet between two teaspoons and give it to him with just a little of his breakfast (to make sure he eats it all), then when that's gone, I give him the rest of his breakfast. His pills are apparently yeast scented which my vet assured me they like, luckily he eats it, good luck. <mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > I don't know if you can do it but this works for me. I crush Otis's > tablet between two teaspoons and give it to him with just a little of > his breakfast (to make sure he eats it all), then when that's gone, I > give him the rest of his breakfast. His pills are apparently yeast > scented which my vet assured me they like, luckily he eats it, good > luck. I've tried that with pills before. It doesn't work. She knows when her food as been spiked. LOL! I will add that if people don't already know, crushing between two spoons is the simplest way to crush a tablet. Why can't they be like dogs in this regard? You just offer a plain pill to a dog and it'll eat it. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? >I don't know if you can do it but this works for me. I crush Otis's > tablet between two teaspoons and give it to him with just a little of > his breakfast (to make sure he eats it all), then when that's gone, I > give him the rest of his breakfast. His pills are apparently yeast > scented which my vet assured me they like, luckily he eats it, good > luck. I tried this with my girl, and it just put her off her food--which made her very unhappy. And when this kitty ain't happy, ain't nooooobody happy. :) cybercat <boagrrl@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >>I don't know if you can do it but this works for me. I crush >>Otis's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > unhappy. And when this kitty ain't happy, ain't nooooobody happy. > :) Sounds like Kami. Everyone must be brought to the same sour mood if she's in one. Because her eating is so important, I just don't like tampering with her food. BTW, she's feeling better. Not only is she eating the whole can, but she's asking for more. Of cvourse she gets it, even when it was 4 o'clock this morning. She knows there's a small window when she's ill that she can get away with all kinds of crap. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > cybercat <boagrrl@hotmail.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > o'clock this morning. She knows there's a small window when she's ill > that she can get away with all kinds of crap. ...and after that "window" closes Kami's life goes back to sheer hell. Kami never knows what the rules are living with a Dr. Jekyll / Ms. Hyde personality. Poor Kami. :-( > She knows there's a small window when she's ill > > that she can get away with all kinds of crap. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Poor Kami. :-( Poor Kami for getting declawed when she was younger and now having all these health problems. So sad :( PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> She knows there's a small window when she's ill >> > that she can get away with all kinds of crap. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Poor Kami for getting declawed when she was younger and now having > all these health problems. So sad :( Oh, give it a rest already. A UTI has nothing to do with it. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Oh, give it a rest already. A UTI has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, behavior changes and illness are the common long term side effects of stress. > Brandy Alexandre wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Unfortunately, behavior changes and illness are the common long term > side effects of stress. So is being a 17 year old cat. Paul >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Paul All the more reason to not be in a stressful environment. > >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > All the more reason to not be in a stressful environment. I agree Joe, you should find an environment that doesn't stress you nearly as bad as this newsgroup. Paul > > >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: > > >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I agree Joe, you should find an environment that doesn't stress you nearly > as bad as this newsgroup. Funny, Joe doesn't seem stressed to me. Beyond what an average cat lover would be when faced with "Brandy's" treatment of Kami. > > > >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Funny, Joe doesn't seem stressed to me. Beyond what an > average cat lover would be when faced with "Brandy's" treatment of Kami. Yeah, tormented and stressed cats make it to lofty ages like 17. Uh huh. Paul Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> > > >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: >> > > >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Paul ...and a half. And, if I may interject, the last four with CRF. If the CRF is caused by stress, then she certainly would not survive beyond the two year average mortality if such stress were in existence. The very fact that Kami continues to thrive in spite of her ailments lends only to the fact that she lives a pampered, stress-free life and receives only the best care. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > her ailments lends only to the fact that she lives a pampered, > stress-free life and receives only the best care. Not quite as pampered as you would have us believe since you have flip flopped on the early morning feedings issue. In one post you claimed you did, yet in another you claimed you didn't. You were very clear about one thing, that you leave canned food in the bowl until it gets dry. I can understand why you don't want your posts archived. > > > >>Brandy Alexandre wrote: > > > >>>PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Funny, Joe doesn't seem stressed to me. Beyond what an > average cat lover would be when faced with "Brandy's" treatment of Kami. I think it's hard for any catlover to hear about a cat having these kinds of problems and treatment. Also, I can't help but wonder why Paul Cook is Brandy Alexandre's big defender. PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Funny, Joe doesn't seem stressed to me. Beyond what an >> average cat lover would be when faced with "Brandy's" treatment [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > these kinds of problems and treatment. Also, I can't help but > wonder why Paul Cook is Brandy Alexandre's big defender. What treatment are you talking about? Joe's spin or the truth? Yes, it's hard to hear that a cat suffered from a UTI and got instant care, as opposed to those who consult the newsgroup with idiocies like, "My cat is bunched up in the corner screaming. What do you think I should do? The vet isn't open and the ER costs three times as much." Or would it be that because she has food issues, I've given into her asking for food in the middle of the night? Or are you going to be another one of those beating to a bloody death the idea that before there was internet there was a declawing? Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but some dork with an internet connection? SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, > but some dork with an internet connection? Oh, I should add that I could have made her wait just one more hour because my trainer was waiting for me at the fitness center. But, no, I took the hit and was docked the session for an extra $70 on the whole tab. Yeah, Kami is such a stressed out and abused cat, cast asude, never given first thought, never a priority, shoudl just be letting her die because, really, Friskies canned food seems good enough and is significantly cheaper. Stop being so gullible to the trolls of the world. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote:> > Or are you going to be another one of those beating to a bloody > death the idea that before there was internet there was a declawing? > > Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on > Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but > some dork with an internet connection? And this, Paul, says it all. She is accustomed to taking things out on Kami; in fact, she did have the cat declawed for her own convenience and has stated over and over again that she has no regrets and would do it again. The issue is simple. Declawing a cat at any age is heinous, but even moreso at seven years old. It isn't about what "Brandy" did for a living, it is about what she did to her cat. If you are going to defend her, fine, but know what you are defending. You are apparently in favor of declawing and think it is fine to declaw a seven-year-old cat simply because you could not be bothered to train her not to scratch. You--and "Brandy"--are entitled to your opinions, of course. > "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote:> > > Or are you going to be another one of those beating to a bloody [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > be bothered to train her not to scratch. You--and "Brandy"--are > entitled to your opinions, of course. Of course it is about Brandy and this is why I participate. I don't know her personally, she's just a newsgroup poster. But I do know there are and have been plenty of un-repentant declawers on this group over the years and nobody made an issue out of it unless the person was being obnoxious about it. Seems to me the only one who has been singled out for special treatment is also one with a past that people like *you* refuse to put behind you. Never since I have started posting her in the last 7 years has anyone been reamed so hard for having a declawed cat. We've had the worst breeders you can imagine on here and many of them got better treatment. My best friend declawed her cat against my wishes. What can I do about it? That was 7 years ago. I pitched a fit and she did it anyway. I had to move on, if we were to remain friends because nothing was going to change it. None of my cats are declawed, never will be either. No cat I ever have will be declawed. So for you to say that because I defended a person against unrelated and hypocritical attacks that somehow I am in favor of declawing is every bit as asinine and stupid as everything else being said on these threads. So yes, it is about Brandy because I have never seen this kind of thing on this group in the years I have been coming here. And I'll bet you that Joe has seen her work plenty and probably enjoyed it shall we say to it's full conclusion. That's what makes me annoyed enough to post - it's all just so much self-righteous hypocrisy. And it has exactly nothing to do with her cat. Paul > > "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote:> > > > Or are you going to be another one of those beating to a bloody [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > much self-righteous hypocrisy. And it has exactly nothing to do with her > cat. We will just have to agree to disagree. [snip] > So yes, it is about Brandy because I have never seen this kind of thing on > this group in the years I have been coming here. And I'll bet you that Joe > has seen her work plenty and probably enjoyed it shall we say to it's full > conclusion. That's what makes me annoyed enough to post - it's all just so > much self-righteous hypocrisy. And it has exactly nothing to do with her > cat. Joe's opinion of porn: The porn industry is degrading to all women and takes men for complete fools while cleaning out their wallets like a Dyson. I'm not one of those fools. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'm not one of those fools. Nobody who is into porn admits it. I think that makes it that much more fun for them. Paul Lumpy <cattoy@cattoy.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> wrote:> >> Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on >> Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but >> some dork with an internet connection? > > And this, Paul, says it all. She is accustomed to taking things out > on Kami; There's a desperate stretch. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > Lumpy <cattoy@cattoy.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > There's a desperate stretch. "Desperate" list: 1) Kami's declaw surgery. 2) You leaving canned food out long enough that it dries out and Kami complains about it. Brandy Alexandre wrote: [snip] > Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on > Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but > some dork with an internet connection? Paul, the above is an example of stress. :-D > Brandy Alexandre wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul, the above is an example of stress. :-D So Joe, just what is it you are trying to accomplish here? Are you trying to rid this nbewsgroup of somebody you clearly despise? No, you can't be doing that because you are such a laid-back and mellow kind of guy. Are you truing to vent your anger in a childish and unproductive way? Nope, can't be that because you are a model of maturity and reasoning. Are you trying to shame Brandy for her past? Nope can't be that because that is not the issue. So tell me Jow. Just what is it you want? Paul Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Brandy Alexandre wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Paul :::giggle::: How is venting about Kami on the newsgroup creating stress in Kami's life? It's not easy to care for a sick and elderly animal. Some things just bug me, and I mention them to vent. It's fanatics like Joe who like to make up entire backstories and state them as fact, and I see the poor ng sheep picking them up and quoting them as fact. That's his goal--to manipulate others to his personal little war. I'm hated by some for things based in someone else's delusions! LOL! I'm sure is really, truly bothers him when he writes something he wants me so desperately to read, but no one replies to it. Paul, I sure hope you snipped something out. ;) Watch out for the sockpuppets. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on > Kami. And if you didn't have newsgroups to "vent" in- you would take your frustrations and anger out on Kami. That's what happen when you had her declawed- you probably threw a coke-induced tantrum and declawed her out of revenge- that's your mentality. And some people wonder why I think you're a piece of sh.t. The fact that you're a coke-whore really isn't the reason. Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> Brandy Alexandre wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Paul Not mention, she's spoiled. The only stress she suffers is when she wants something and I don't do it right NOW. That's all I was referring to when I said she's getting away with stuff now, because ordinarily, she would not be fed at 4am. Leave it yo Joe to make a fool of himself as he obsesses over my every post. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: [snip] > Not mention, she's spoiled. The only stress she suffers is when she > wants something and I don't do it right NOW. That's all I was > referring to when I said she's getting away with stuff now, because > ordinarily, she would not be fed at 4am. Leave it yo Joe to make a > fool of himself as he obsesses over my every post. You see, that is one of the reasons why you are not credible... you keep changing your story with respect to the well-being of Kami. Quoted above, you say she isn't fed during the wee hours of the morning, yet in the post quoted below you tried to make us all believe you *regularly* get up in the wee hours of the morning to feed Kami. About the only thing that happens with regularity here is you tripping over yourself in attempts to redeem your credibility when you are tripped up. It seems *you* are the fool. > Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news3 > From: "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Talk about pussy-whipped... > PawsForThought <Mickey4Paws@anonymous.to> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Oh, give it a rest already. A UTI has nothing to do with it. It damn sure does, bimbo. Hematuria (blood in the urine) and/or dysuria (difficulty passing urine) and/or stranguria (difficult and painful discharge of urine) sometimes accompanied by abdominal pain are *classic* symptoms of interstitial cystitis- *not* a UTI - moron. The *only* way a UTI can be definitively diagnosed is by microscopic examination of the urine sediment followed by bacterial culture of the urine. I seriously doubt your incompetent and clueless vet even knows how to culture urine- or would bother even if by some remote chance he did know how. The vast majority of cats have no clinically observable signs *whatsoever* when they have UTI. You declawed Kami when she was *7 years old* after having her claws for half of her lifetime. Did you even bother to stop and think about the confusion she must feel when she thinks she extends her claws to grip or balance but all of a sudden couldn't? She doesn't know what happened- or why- and that affects her confidence and security- and that causes *stress*. Stress is the *leading* cause of exacerbation of symptoms of feline interstitial cystitis- the *exact* symptoms you described. Instead of tramping around in the porn and gossip newsgroup- do a little research on FIC. You *yourself* said her biting *increased* and her behavior got worse after you declawed her. Gee, now what causes behavioral problems to get worse in cats? I know you don't have a clue. Its stress- you moronic bimbo. Stress in cats is manifested by behavioral *and* physical disorders- *especially* urinary tract disorders. So, yes, a.shole- declawing *does* have a lot to do with her symptoms *and* behavior- not to mention the stress caused by your drug-induced tantrums. Who are you trying to convince with all your anecdotal cat stories that you're such a 'loving' and 'caring' cat owner ? Us or yourself? You sure have some people fooled. > You *yourself* said her biting *increased* and her behavior got worse after > you declawed her. Gee, now what causes behavioral problems to get worse in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you're such a 'loving' and 'caring' cat owner ? Us or yourself? You sure > have some people fooled. This would indeed be the point that galls me and, I think, Joe, too. > > You *yourself* said her biting *increased* and her behavior got worse > after [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > This would indeed be the point that galls me and, I think, Joe, too. And probably a lot of other people, too, who just don't want to get into a flame war with an amoral coke whore who abuses her cat. And I say "amoral" in the sense that she declawed her cat without any regrets because some bimbo make up artist complained about scratches- not because she's a coke whore. She tries to come off like a loving cat owner who spoils her cat when in reality, the cat has probably been living in hell. The cat is probably a nervous wreak and never knows what to expect from the a.shole. Her psychotic drug-induced tantrums are probably the cause of the cat's behavioral and certain medical problems in the first place. Then, she probably forced herself on her cat because the cat was probably afraid to come near her- not knowing what to expect- a slap, kick or pet. People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time develop a sixth sense and pick up subtle hints about how people treat animals that other people miss. Her latest post wasn't a hint- it was a glaring signal: "I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami." What does that tell you about how she really treats her cat???? >>>You *yourself* said her biting *increased* and her behavior got worse >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > "I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami." What does that > tell you about how she really treats her cat???? Hmm, and it wasn't all that long ago she was without an Internet connection for a period of time... so there was no place to vent. > > People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time develop a > > sixth sense and pick up subtle hints about how people treat animals that > > other people miss. Her latest post wasn't a hint- it was a glaring signal: > > "I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami." What does that > > tell you about how she really treats her cat???? > Hmm, and it wasn't all that long ago she was without an Internet > connection for a period of time... so there was no place to vent. She also recently began administering fluid therapy to her cat, and shortly after, her cat developed a type of urinary tract disorder that's usually unmasked or exacerbated by stress. Coincidence? or did she vent her anger and frustration from having to give her cat fluids on Kami? My guess is the latter. > People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time develop a > sixth sense and pick up subtle hints about how people treat animals that > other people miss. Her latest post wasn't a hint- it was a glaring signal: > "I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami." What does that > tell you about how she really treats her cat???? That statement *was* rather chilling. What could a cat possibly do that someone would want to "take it out on" his/her fur-baby? I've had Bandit puke up a hairball on a brand new $600 quilt (I should have known better than to buy a pastel colored quilt). I wiped it up, threw a pillow over the stain, and cuddled my baby to make her feel better. Bandit bit me down into the joint of my finger when the vet frightened her. I took antibiotics for a week and needed a tetanus shot that caused my arm to swell and itch for 3 weeks. I cuddled my baby to reassure her that she would be OK after her ordeal at the vet. I've had Sammy scratch my ear, neck and *nipple* when she got scared by a loud noise and tried to climb me. I blotted the blood and cuddled my baby to make her feel safe. I've had Jessie put a row of "pulls" in a 3-month-old sofa. I put the scratching post next to the sofa, put catnip on it and showed her how to use it by demonstrating scratching (to the delight of my husband to still teases me about sharpening my claws). I've had Demi jump up on the dining room table to chow down on a Thanksgiving turkey that was set out to cool before carving. I carved a big hunk out of the eaten part, diced it up for all the kitties and we ate what was left! If you're upset by the things that cats do just because they're cats, then buy a stuffed animal instead of adopting a cat! Hugs, CatNipped > > People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time develop > a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > If you're upset by the things that cats do just because they're cats, then > buy a stuffed animal instead of adopting a cat! Well, now, CN, you've really done it. Paul is going to tell you that you have an obsession with Brandy now. Because she was a porn prop. Because it just cannot be the way she treats her cat that bothers you. Because she was a porn prop. Understand? If you object to this or to the declawing, you either hate her because you are a prude or you WANT her. Sheesh. What would you and Joe do without me and Paul to straighten you out? > > > People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time > develop [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > you WANT her. Sheesh. What would you and Joe do without me > and Paul to straighten you out? It'll take more than your feeble excuse for a brain to start talking for me. Clearly my point has gone completely over your pointy little head. Big surprise. I'm willing to wager you know plenty of people who have declawed cats. So what do you intend to do about it? Firebomb their houses? Maybe cut their brake lines? What? You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have to dig very deep to find some heinous acts in your past - people who pontificate like you do are always the most guilty. It is always the fog of noise that is used to hide the worst of crimes. Paul >>>>People who've been working in rescue and adoptions for a long time >> [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > Paul ...and you appear to be blind to the "fog of noise" Brandy has been making in this newsgroup for years. > > You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have to dig > > very deep to find some heinous acts in your past - people who pontificate [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ...and you appear to be blind to the "fog of noise" Brandy has been > making in this newsgroup for years. Nope. :) He's blinded by her illustrious background. The Romance of the porn world has Paul by the short hairs: therefore it does not matter WHAT "Brandy" does to her cat. *Sigh* I just love these Knight in Shining Armor types, don't you? > > > You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have to > dig [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > *Sigh* I just love these Knight in Shining Armor types, don't > you? If you actually read what I wrote you will see I am not so much defending her as I am chastising a small group opf very loud, very hypocritical, very self-righteous bunch of judgemental people. That would be you, yes. Paul > If you actually read what I wrote you will see I am not so much defending > her as I am chastising a small group opf very loud, very hypocritical, very > self-righteous bunch of judgemental people. That would be you, yes. ...and in doing that you are doing the very thing you claim some of us are doing. :-D > > If you actually read what I wrote you will see I am not so much defending > > her as I am chastising a small group opf very loud, very hypocritical, very > > self-righteous bunch of judgemental people. That would be you, yes. > > ...and in doing that you are doing the very thing you claim some of us > are doing. :-D For the record, I have nothing agains porn props. The boy who cleans my house used to be a pr0n star. :) > > > > You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have > to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > her as I am chastising a small group opf very loud, very hypocritical, very > self-righteous bunch of judgemental people. That would be you, yes. We may be all of those things, but disliking a person who declawed a 7-year-old cat, does not regret it, and who threatens to "take things out" on a sick old cat is reasonable regardless of her background. Period. The rest, like "Brandy's" former livlihood, is beside the point. > > > > > You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have > > to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > reasonable regardless of her background. Period. The rest, like "Brandy's" > former livlihood, is beside the point. If that is the case why do you keep bringing it up? Paul > > reasonable regardless of her background. Period. The rest, like "Brandy's" > > former livlihood, is beside the point. > > If that is the case why do you keep bringing it up? Because I am addressing your argument that it must be "Brandy's" former livihood that disgusts Joe and others, rather than her treatment of her cat. > > Well, now, CN, you've really done it. Paul is going to tell you that you > > have an obsession with Brandy now. Because she was a porn prop. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > what do you intend to do about it? Firebomb their houses? Maybe cut their > brake lines? What? Actually, no, I don't. But if I did, I would raise the same points if and when they claimed to be Great Catloving Cat Magnets. > You are engaging in a purely prurient pleasure. Probably don't have to dig > very deep to find some heinous acts in your past - people who pontificate > like you do are always the most guilty. It is always the fog of noise that > is used to hide the worst of crimes. This is a purely speculative statement in response to my very clear analysis of the invalidity of your argument that Joe's objection to Brandy has anything at all to do with anything but the way she treats her cat. If that is the best you can do, well, there you are. > > > Well, now, CN, you've really done it. Paul is going to tell you that you > > > have an obsession with Brandy now. Because she was a porn prop. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > to Brandy has anything at all to do with anything but the way she treats > her cat. If that is the best you can do, well, there you are. Declawing a cat is wrong. But it's done and nothing can change it. And nobody here, Brandy, you or anyone, has to beg for forgiveness especially when her previous career has been made the center of the criticism. That is what you want. And for the record everything you project is pure speculation. Paul [snip] > Declawing a cat is wrong. But it's done and nothing can change it. Agreed, however it doesn't seem to matter how much "Brandy" is educated in this group I suspect she would have a pet declawed once again in a heartbeat. Interestingly enough, when "Brandy" started participating in this group she commented shortly afterwards that she didn't find the group as informative as she hoped it would be... a rather inflammatory statement if nothing else. > And > nobody here, Brandy, you or anyone, has to beg for forgiveness especially > when her previous career has been made the center of the criticism. While I have commented on her "career", my objection here has been her pseudo displays of caring for her cat that have been very tempered by comments that she continues to post on a regular basis in here such as the following: "Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami. Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but some dork with an internet connection?" I've also seen her comments on children. Yes, not everyone likes kids... however it has often been said that having a cat in the house is like have a child permamentely stuck at the age of 5. Given all this it would seem her dislike for kids spills over somewhat to pets as well, given that she feels the need to vent on the 'net to avoid taking it out on Kami. This also implies that it has been taken out on Kami. [snip] > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > informative as she hoped it would be... a rather inflammatory statement > if nothing else. A personal opinion. Is there nothing you can deal with? > > And > > nobody here, Brandy, you or anyone, has to beg for forgiveness especially [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > comments that she continues to post on a regular basis in here such as > the following: > "Just bite me. I come here to vent so that I don't take it out on Kami. > Hold it against me. See if I care. Who are you anyway, but some dork > with an internet connection?" I once posted about how my new cat was driving me up the freaking wall. Venting here made it easier to not lock the little guy in my bedroom, which would have been "taking it out on him." BTW, we get along just great now and I wouldn't trade him for the world. Cats can try your patience every bit as much as kids do. And I often hear parents using the EXACT SAME phrase regarding their own kids. Just go to any of the parenting groups and you'll see what I mean. What are you going to do about that? > I've also seen her comments on children. Yes, not everyone likes kids... > however it has often been said that having a cat in the house is like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > avoid taking it out on Kami. This also implies that it has been taken > out on Kami. More irrelevant nonsense. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard of a coupole who dumped a pet because a baby was on the way. Seems having kids is hardly a qualification for being an animal lover. Paul >>[snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A personal opinion. Is there nothing you can deal with? It is just a personal opinion, not a declaration of war. :-D >>>And >>>nobody here, Brandy, you or anyone, has to beg for forgiveness [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > phrase regarding their own kids. Just go to any of the parenting groups and > you'll see what I mean. What are you going to do about that? I don't have to do anything, but I think those parents should. :-D >>I've also seen her comments on children. Yes, not everyone likes kids... >>however it has often been said that having a cat in the house is like [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Paul You missed the point. :-D > >>[snip] > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > It is just a personal opinion, not a declaration of war. :-D Indeed. :) > > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A personal opinion. Is there nothing you can deal with? He's "dealing." He is discussing with you. What else is he supposed to be doing? Note that I did not say, "What you want is for Joe to fold and tell you that you're right, when he does not agree." But of course I cannot know what you "want." All that can be logically deduced from your comments here is that you object to those of us who object to people who declaw and otherwise abuse their cats, then portray themselves here as cat lover. And you have that right, just as we have the right to still object to said "people," aka, Brandy. And by the way, there is another a.shole with the same philosophy, who declawed THREE kittens at once, announced it here, and announced that he did not want to hear any criticism. When he comes around, I point out that he did indeed do that, knowing full and well that declawing is mutilation, and that I therefore doubt that he is much of a cat lover, especially since his cats come after his upholstery. As far as I know, Carl was not a porn prop. Still, even if he were a lawyer, the mere fact that he has behaved as he has toward his cats is enough for me to conclude that he is a cat abuser and therefore not a "cat lover. As with Brandy, Carl's profession, were he a lawyer, might disgust me just as much as the pr0n industry disgusts others, but it would be simply ANOTHER disgusting thing he does, in addition to declawing cats, and hence, beside the point. Any questions? > > > [snip] > > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Any questions? One. How can you be so obviously judgemental and yet claim not to be? "As far as I know, Carl was not a porn prop." any questions? Paul > > > > [snip] > > > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > any questions? Sure. Where did I claim not to be judgemental? I judge things and people all the time. That is not the issue that has been raised. (I used the term "porn prop" because I just do not think "porn star" is appropriate, and I don't see what the folks in the f.ck films do as actual acting. That is my opinion. Judgmental? You bet. But it is beside the point as what we are discussing here is whether or not a cat lover is justified in stating that "Brandy" is not a cat lover based upon the brutal acts she has committed upon her poor cat. I think one is, and you appear to be arguing that one is not--that, instead, her former career is what people are *really* objecting to.) All I said in relation to this current discussion, was, once again, since you have not yet comprehended it, that what Brandy has told us she has done to her cat is enough grounds to find her disgusting. Therefore your claim that Joe and I and others who object to her portrayal of herself as someone who loves cats do so because of the way she used to make her living, is false. That might be ANOTHER reason to find her disgusting, but how she treats her cat is reason enough. Anything else? I can do this for days on end. :) I really like a rousing debate. Nothing personal, of course. Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > One. How can you be so obviously judgemental and yet claim not to be? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Paul Indeed, if my former career wasn't an issue, they wouldn't mention it at all much less couch it in lies and pejoratives. They focus a LOT on issues so old they can be measured in decades. Why? Because they've got nothing else and since they have never changed over ten years, they don't believe anyone else can. I'd really like to see what kind of attacks they can promote against my being a forensic accountant/private auditor/treasure hunter/whatever. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > I'd really like to see what kind of attacks they can promote against my > being a forensic accountant/private auditor/treasure hunter/whatever. But, perhaps you would like to take this opportunity to move beyond the past and post more about your accounting/auditing credentials? ...an area I am certainly familiar with. > Indeed, if my former career wasn't an issue, But your 'former career' *is* an issue, bimbo. You had your cat declawed because another whining bimbo complained about the extra work needed to cover the scratches so they wouldn't show up on film while you were getting your gaping a.s ganged-banged. > I'd really like to see what kind of attacks they can promote against my > being a forensic accountant/private auditor/treasure hunter/whatever. An animal abusing piece of sh.t by any other name is still an animal abusing piece of sh.t. Whatever you want you call yourself, you're still an animal abusing piece of sh.t because you declawed your cat for a behavior problem that *you* created and encouraged. You accept no responsibility and feel no remorse. Its also obvious, by your own words, that you take your anger and frustrations out on your cat. That clearly explains why your cat is neurotic. You don't know enough about feline behavior, psychology and emotions to try to conjure up bullshit explanations for your cat's behavior problems. Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. It's over. Kami's claws aren't growing back. You really are sounding like a psychotic and I say this because I have always valued your knowledge. It's over, ok? Let it go. You are not helping anyone, anycat or anything now. Your language is very disturbing. This is pointless and now you are making yourself look bad. Is it worth it? Paul > > Indeed, if my former career wasn't an issue, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You don't know enough about feline behavior, psychology and emotions to try > to conjure up bullshit explanations for your cat's behavior problems. Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > It's over. Kami's claws aren't growing back. You really are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Paul He's made more of a point on himself than on me. That's very satisfying. I still don't know where he gets this idea about the declawing being due to scratches. That's total bullshit. As I said before, and he chooses to ignore, I wasn't IN the business at the time. SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > declawing being due to scratches. That's total bullshit. As I said > before, and he chooses to ignore, I wasn't IN the business at the time. Phil is a very passionate man. I'm just trying to maintain a sense of balance here. Paul > He's made more of a point on himself than on me. Naa, I think most people see you for the animal abusing low-life that you are. That's very > satisfying. Do you understand the concept of self-reinforcing delusion? I still don't know where he gets this idea about the > declawing being due to scratches. From *you*. > That's total bullshit. You can say anything you want, now. You deleted all the evidence- 100s of posts in this and the porn and gossips newsgroups after the first time I bought up the complaints about your scratches. You even changed your header from brandy@kamikaze.org to brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net and a few others. As I said > before, and he chooses to ignore, I wasn't IN the business at the time. You'll *always* be in the business- one way or another. You seem to be under the delusion that you have credibility! LOL! I don't think many people would find a coke-whore who needs a place to take out your frustrations and anger so you don't take them out on your cat because she got sick very credible. > > He's made more of a point on himself than on me. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > frustrations and anger so you don't take them out on your cat because she > got sick very credible. No, no, no, Phil. The problem is that *I* am a TROLL. Wake up and smell the coffee. > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. You're sounding like one of her fans, tricks or some lonesome guy with a pocket full of quarters on the way to one of her peep show booths. > Your language is very disturbing. Her treatment of her cat is very disturbing to me. > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Her treatment of her cat is very disturbing to me. I understand that, Phil. But you are sounding like you are losing it. I say this out of respect and not criticism. You are hurting yourself now and you are doing nothing to help. Reign it it, man. Keep it in perspective. You cannot change what happened a decade ago. Paul > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you are doing nothing to help. Reign it it, man. Keep it in perspective. > You cannot change what happened a decade ago. Paul, these control-freak tendencies you are exhibiting are inappropriate for Usenet. Maybe a moderated forum would be more comfortable for you. > > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > for Usenet. Maybe a moderated forum would be more comfortable for > you. What's your favorite color in a rose? What's your favorite way of taking your porn-stud housecleaner? Vaginally? Anally? Do you take it all the way down your throat? Do you love it when he turns you around and pokes you in the a.s? Do you like to give him head after he's been deep inside your rectum? Do you spit or swallow? How many men do you like at one time? 3? 5? 10? I want to know. Tell me, won't you? Paul > > > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > What's your favorite color in a rose? They are each different in their own way. I like some colors in some breeds and others in others. I tend to lean toward true reds and orange and pink blends, but I really like them all. You? > What's your favorite way of taking your porn-stud housecleaner? Vaginally? > Anally? Do you take it all the way down your throat? Do you love it when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul You seem to have a more than passing interest in sex as a spectator sport, Paul. Have you been projecting onto Joe? : D > What's your favorite way of taking your porn-stud housecleaner? Vaginally? > Anally? Do you take it all the way down your throat? Do you love it when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul I'd say you're most definitely in the wrong forum, LOL. > > What's your favorite way of taking your porn-stud housecleaner? Vaginally? > > Anally? Do you take it all the way down your throat? Do you love it when [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'd say you're most definitely in the wrong forum, LOL. I was thinking the same thing. We were discussing whether or not someone who has declawed her cat and shown no signs of remorse, who also says that she posts here so that she does not "take it out on Kami" is really someone who cares about cats, weren't we? Then apparently Paul, who made the very trollish post above in the middle of a straightforward discussion, decided that both he and Phil were being "played" and not by Brandy. That leaves me and Joe. I would say that Paul is not well suited for an open discussion forum if this is the way he reacts to losing an argument. But that's just me. :) >>>>>Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Paul Wow, I missed this zinger. It seems YOU are the closet porno junkie, which goes a ways to explaining your "knight in shining armour" approach towards "Brandy". > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I understand that, Phil. But you are sounding like you are losing it. I > say this out of respect and not criticism. Thanks for your concern. It infuriates me when an animal abuser tries to come off like a loving caretaker. You are hurting yourself now and > you are doing nothing to help. No one can help her. She's not here to help her cat because she totally disregards any advice anyone gives her- and not only from me- *anyone*. She's here simply for the attention. So, I'm giving her attention: I'm ridiculing her for her treatment of her cat. Reign it it, man. Keep it in perspective. > You cannot change what happened a decade ago. Its not a decade ago- its how she treats her cat *now*. Why do you think she has the need to post messages about all the 'wonderful' things she does for her cat? If you don't know, re-read her post about how she needs a place to vent so she doesn't take her anger and frustration out on her cat. Defending an animal abuser doesn't make you look very good. Your chivalry is admirable but its grossly misplaced. > Defending an animal abuser doesn't make you look very good. Your chivalry > is admirable but its grossly misplaced. Nicely put, Phil. > > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Defending an animal abuser doesn't make you look very good. Your chivalry > is admirable but its grossly misplaced. Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy either. Email me for more information. Paul >>>>>Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Paul Well, clue me in as well... addy in the headers. > > > > > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy either. Email > me for more information. Phil is a lot smarter than you think. :) > > Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy either. > > me for more information. > > Phil is a lot smarter than you think. :) At least I'm smarter than bucket butt Brandy thinks- because I'm not falling for her bullshit 'loving caretaker' stories. I've been in rescue and adoption long enough to spot a a real cat lover when I see one- and she's is a long way from it. Only one person got over on me in the six years I've been reading newsgroups- and that made me scrutinize posters even more carefully. > > > Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy either. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been reading newsgroups- and that made me scrutinize posters even more > carefully. Did you get Paul's email about who is "playing you?" Do please share, this is a valid email. Inquiring minds, you know. :) > > > > Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy either. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Did you get Paul's email about who is "playing you?" Do please share, > this is a valid email. Inquiring minds, you know. :) You'll have to ask Paul. He sent his message to me in confidence. >>>>>Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > You'll have to ask Paul. He sent his message to me in confidence. After years in the IT business, I have to chuckle to myself everytime I hear about someone sending an "email in confidence". Sending email is essentially the same as sending a postcard, there is nothing particulary private about it. But then again, some of us are more paranoid than others. :-D > >>>>>Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > But then again, some of us are more paranoid than others. :-D Na, I just don't think I should discuss Paul's private email to me. If he wanted everyone to know what it said, he would have posted it to the group. >>>>>>>Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Na, I just don't think I should discuss Paul's private email to me. If he > wanted everyone to know what it said, he would have posted it to the group. As long as everyone understands that "private email" is an oxymoron. :-D > > >>>>>Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy > > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Na, I just don't think I should discuss Paul's private email to me. If he > wanted everyone to know what it said, he would have posted it to the group. Phil. I KNOW what it said. lol! > > > > > Phil, we've both been played for fools here and not by Brandy > either. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > You'll have to ask Paul. He sent his message to me in confidence. I was just kidding. I would never ask you to forward me an email. Or, if I did, I sure wouldn't do it in the group. :) > Phil, you made your point. Now you are sounding like a psycho. It's over. > Kami's claws aren't growing back. You really are sounding like a psychotic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul Why so judgemental, Paul? > Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news4 > From: "Brandy Alexandre" <brandyalx@kittylittercomcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I'd really like to see what kind of attacks they can promote against my > being a forensic accountant/private auditor/treasure hunter/whatever. No surprise you did not respond to the previous opportunity for you to post something about your present credentials and move beyond your past. It strikes me that *you* are focusing a lot on old issues and your past since you continue to use the pseudo name that is from your distant past and a former "career". It is your choice as to which name you post under, no one here forces you to use that. And, as if it wasn't enough to post your pseudo name in the "From:" line you also make sure to include it as a signature... just in case someone missed the "From:" line along with a link to a site where you rack up points each time someone clicks on it. And so your whining and complaining about people bringing up your past strikes me as rather pathetic since you *can* do something about that, yet seemingly refuse to. "Joe Canuck" <Joe.Canuck@-remove-gmail.com> wrote > It is your choice as to which name you post under, no one here forces > you to use that. And, as if it wasn't enough to post your pseudo name in > the "From:" line you also make sure to include it as a signature... just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > strikes me as rather pathetic since you *can* do something about that, > yet seemingly refuse to. Now, Joe. If you keep advancing valid arguments, the Email Task Force is going to have to email everyone and tell them that you are a Big Bad Troll. Paul M. Cook <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Paul You're showing way too much reading comprehension, Paul. They'll starting "taking it out on" you pretty soon. Perhaps at that point they might figure out that it can mean a myriad of things, but with this crowd... not very likely. Good point about parenting groups. There are similar set-ups for primary care givers. Kami falls into both groups, actually. I don't spank her, yell at her, lock her in the bathroom, withhold affection or treats. I just come her and post an ARGH!!! And Kami plops down within her three foot radius of where I am at the computer or looks up saying, "Pick me up so I can get in the way." And then I do! SignatureBrandy Alexandre® http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? "Paul M. Cook" <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote > > This is a purely speculative statement in response to my very clear > > analysis of the invalidity of your argument that Joe's objection > > to Brandy has anything at all to do with anything but the way she treats [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > when her previous career has been made the center of the criticism. That is > what you want. Now you are a mind reader. There is no way you could know "what I want." I want nothing from Brandy. However, when she goes on about how she is a Cat Magnet because she Loves Cats So Much I will continue to point out that her self-professed behavior toward her cats indicated otherwise. Because it is true. >And for the record everything you project is pure > speculation. Now that is a clear and logical statement. :) > "Paul M. Cook" <pmBERMUDA_SHORTScook@gte.net> wrote > > This is a purely > speculative statement in response to my very clear [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Now that is a clear and logical statement. :) |
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