[snip]

No, I didn't mond, and there was no concern, just a weak attempt at a joke.
I mean, opera and turds -- the connection seems a bit tenuous.  Other than
that, I don't mind a good steak, but not right after reading your story.
Besides, you posted this to alt.usage,english, and that's where I am.  Did
you want it mentioned that you missed a comma before "Skitt" when you
addressed me (and omitted another in a similar case)?  Or did you want me to
mention that the "to" (and "from") you commented on above is not an adverb,
but in this context it is a preposition?

I thought not.  Never mind, then.

Cheers!

spake thusly:

Adverbs?

Get back in your tree kookaburra!

Kathy AND Ken

OK, I'll tell you what was incorrect.

He cut him off before he even knew what argument Ken Jr. was going to
offer.

Irrrelevant.  Most of the places in the world, and most of the toilets
in the world that your son will use in his life are not at your house.

In your own words, he cut him off again.  If you want to raise a smart
child, you should be happy he wants to offer counterarguments, and you
should let him finish, and then reply to his arguments logically.  If
you are lucky, he'll have a counterargument for that too, and if he
doesn't, it will mean that you have convinced him that Sr. is right,
based on logic, and not power.  Sr. shouldn't have to rely on having a
louder voice or on "authority" to win an argument about something like
this.  It seems a bit like Sr. thinks if he lets Jr. finish his
sentence, Sr. may not have a decent counterargument.  

If Sr. relies on his "authority" all the time to win arguments, Jr.
will, without even trying, start to lose respect for his father's
status as an authority.  Especially since there will inevitably be
cases where your son concludes, if not at the time then later, that
his father was wrong.  

If on the other hand, Sr. and you listen to his arguments, the respect
that you show your son by doing so will increase his own self-respect
and confidence**.  By no means does that mean you should agree with
him when his argument is faulty (in your view).  That would make him
think the world is easier than it is, or that he can always come up
with a convincing argument on the first try.  You should try to
explain to him why his argument is faulty.   (more details omitted)

**The disrespect you show him when you cut him off, especially before
he has even started on his point, does the opposite.   It either
lowers his self-respect and self-confidence, or, if he can eventually
get beyond that, will make him either disappointed, angry, or
alienated from you.

Issues that are subject to logic should we argued on the basis
of logic.  That way "Because I said so" remains available for topics
that may not be so subject to logic.  Like not using drugs, or not
having sex in junior high or high school or until marriage (depending
on what you hope that he will do and not do.)  Or as a final reason
when logical arguments have failed, like studying, finishing high
school or college, and coming home for holidays.

First, these things contradict each other.  Either you misreported
what Sr. said, or he contradicted himself.  If Jr. is to leave the
toilet and urinal the way he found them, then he must flush them when
he is done.  You are teaching him to be a leach on society.

If he is not willing to flush after his own use, he shouldn't use
these toilets.  Let him wait until he gets home.  Sure that means he
won't be away from home for more than 6 or 8 hours but at least he
won't be a leach on society.   The owners of these restrooms don't
have to post a rule on the wall for people to know that they are
obliged to flush.

If he can flush the toilet when he uses it, he can flush the toilet if
he finds that someone else has used it earlier and failed to flush.
It's the same toilet.  --  Perhaps you haven't noticed that most
public toilets, at least the ones with Flushometers, can be flushed
with one's foot.  That's what people who are reluctant to touch the
handle do.   But there are also a lot of tank toilets with a little
chrome lever.  The lever is too high for most people to use their
feet, but it is also much easier to push.  If your husband is
squeamish, he can take a paper tissue or towel and use that to protect
his fingers when he flushes.  If there are no paper towels there is
almost always toilet paper (and I would think your family especially
would have checked for toilet paper before they sat down.)

I think most people find the flushometer handle more repulsive because
it is right on the metal pipe, and the cold water makes the valve
"sweat" except where there is very low humidity in the air.  This
sweat is actually distilled water, but like rain (also distilled
water) can get dirty when it is falling through dirty air, this sweat
can get dirty when it condenses on the handle, and it could
conceivably provide an environment where germs could grow.  The handle
of tthe tank toilet, otoh, is almost always warmer and dry.  The
warmth is good for germs, but the dryness is bad.

The only time one shouldn't flush a full toilet one finds is an
occasion where it seems that the toilet is clogged.  That may be the
reason that it appears not to have been flushed, and flushing again
will make water spill over the toilet rim.  If the floor is already
wet, that's a big clue that the toilet is clogged.  If the floor is
dry, it probably isn't.

"Tit for tat" is something I would expect your child to be trying to
teach you, not the other way around.  And it's not like the toilet has
a will of its own.  The toilet is owned by someone nice enough to let
you use it.   The mess left in it was left by a third party.   Leaving
the toilet dirty does nothing to hurt the third party.  Instead when
you don't flush your own toilet, you are just as bad as he is, and
you're both dumping on the owner of the bathroom.

Please don't give me this stuff about you raising YOUR son.

First, you posted this to several newsgroups with no express or
implied limitiation on what responses should be.

Second, if you teach your kids to pish and not flush, you're teaching
him to be a leach on the society I and the others here live in.  As
soon as he starts using something other than the toilet in your home,
he has a responsibility to everyone else.

Further, there may be times -- there have been in my life -- where it
is too disgusting to even touch the tank handle, maybe to even step on
the valve, of a toilet left dirty by someone else, and there may well
be times where it looks like the toilet will overflow if flushed.
But those seem not to be the reasons your husband gave your son when
encountering a full toilet, or even it seems a yellow urinal.   He
gave him a blanket "No."  So you're teaching him that even when he
could easily do something to make things better, he shouldn't.  You're
teaching him to be selfish,   And he'll probably have to marry a
selfish girl, because any other who notices won't be willing to have
him.  And he'll probably raise selfish children.  Ah, the amazing
cycle of life.

Remove NOPSAM to email me.  Please let
me know if you have posted also.