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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 2003What's the deal with Hill's m/d?
Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein source? M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some time and now Purina has competition.  SignatureLarry Silkaitis (Owned by six cats: two grey, one black, white, black and white, and grey and white) > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein > source? > M/D is also used for diabetic cats. Purinia has had DM out for some > time and now Purina has competition. Sadly it doesn't look like what I'm looking for. I was hopeful. >> Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat >> is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein >> source? > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein > source? Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0% Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0% Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5% Fiber... ...........Can.. ..6.0%......Dry... 5.5% Calcium... ......Can.. .0.85%.....Dry... 0.89% Phosphorus... Can...0.69%......Dry... 0.76% Sodium... .......Can.. .0.36%......Dry... 0.36% Potassium..... Can...0.77%.......Dry... 0.73% Magnesium... .Can.. .0.065%...Dry...0.046% Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30% Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm) Ingredients (Can) Pork by-products, pork liver, water, corn starch, powdered cellulose, soy protein isolate, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), guar gum, locust bean gum, carrageenan, rice flour, taurine, DL-methionine, L-carnitine, minerals (calcium carbonate, calcium sulfate, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid (a source of vitamin C), thiamine mononitrate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement). Canned: Protein Digestibility...86.0% Fat Digestibility ...82.0% Carbohydrate Digestibility...72.0% 157 kcal/ 156 g can - 481 kcal/per cup - dry Target Urine pH Normal Acid (6.2 - 6.4) Dry: Chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, pork fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), pork protein isolate, corn meal, powdered cellulose, wheat gluten, dried egg product, chicken liver flavor, L-lysine, taurine, rice flour, L-carnitine, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium sulfate, salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement). 481 kcal/per cup Protein Digestibility....91.0% Fat Digestibility...92.0% Carbohydrate Digestibility...87.0% > Protein... .......Can.. 52.8%......Dry... 52.0% > Fat... ..............Can.. 20.2%.....Dry... 22.0% [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30% > Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm) [...] Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is interesting. I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me. Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat. I suppose it is impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high enough protein content? <sigh > Thanks Phil. I don't know what to make of that but all the pork is > interesting. Pork by-products are a highly digestible protein source >86%. Highly digestible proteins are less antigenic because very little protein is absorbed intact into the mucosa. Also, less protein will get into the colon so less colonic ammonia will be generated. Pork by-products are also more nutritious than skeletal meat and is also probably a novel protein source for your cat - which reduces the likelihood of Shadow being allergic or developing a reaction to it. Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high for an IBD diet. The high protein content increases the chances of protein antigenicity. Also, any protein that isn't absorbed could result in the generation of ammonia - too much is toxic and can result in encephalopathy if it isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's previous liver problems -- just a thought. Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats! I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for > Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat. > and not to worry about brand but ingredients. This helps a lot. I > have to wonder about fat content. I have digestive problems, too, and > even knowing that IBD seems pretty generic and has different > requirements for diet, I do notice that high fat content kills me. > Even eating a salad with a non-diet salad dressing tears me up more > than a lunch of Lean Cuisine with 6 grams of fat. The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila?tion can result in diarrhea. OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch and secretions. Although fat is one of the most digestible components of the diet, fat malassimila?tion is not that uncommon. So the amount of fat in the diet would be depend on how much the cat can tolerate. I suppose it is > impossible to find a cat food with low fat and no grains but a high > enough protein content? <sigh> Forget the grain-o-phobic's chanting and give d/d a shot! I've had excellent results. The next step would be home cooked diet. Good luck. Phil <snip pork info - thanks!> > Although I think m/d is an excellent diet for other purposes, > unfortunately, I think the protein content (52%) of m/d is too high [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > isn't metabolized adequately by the liver -- considering Shadow's > previous liver problems -- just a thought. I do appreciate it. Running out of canned options, though. :( > Hills Prescription Diet d/d is an *excellent* diet for IBD. It has > moderate protein and fat content and a single protein source (lamb), > and a single carbohydrate source - rice - which is an excellent > carbohydrate source because its more completely assimilated than > other carbs. There aren't many reports of allergies to rice in cats! This is one I've never heard of and hadn't been suggested by his former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot. Though if it is the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he likely won't touch it. >> I was wondering if this diet would be low in grains for >> Shadow's IBD. His new vet suggested a diet without corn and grains > > You gotta get away from these extremist grainaphobics! A diet of all > protein and fat would be ok for a normal cat, but it would contain > either too much protein or too much fat or both for an IBD cat. I think with him it has merrit and I don't believe it is all grain but just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in here again!). When we switched vets and she told me to take him off SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything, I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he visited the litter box decreased substantually and he even had some normal poops for a couple of days. The ultimate goal is to get off of dry food altogether but he is so stubborn and the best I've gotten to so far is down to about 1/4 cup per day of dry between both Shadow and Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach). > The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and 30 > - 45% protein (DMB). Too much fat or fat malassimila?tion can result > in diarrhea. I have a feeling this is happening with most of his food atm. He isn't losing weight so even though I'd *like* him to lose weight, the lack of that tells me he's using something out of his food... I *think* any way. >OTOH, high fat (energy dense) diets allow you feed > smaller portions of food at each meal -- which minimizes GI stretch > and secretions. I guess this is another good case for canned over dry (the GI stretch). I do feed him smaller meals lately - he seems to take to it better and eats all of the canned I put out. He loves his dry though.. I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the little bit of dry. > The next step would be home cooked diet. I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and vitamins, he doesn't like it. I only do this to get past some of the worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones. > <snip pork info - thanks!> > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > former vet who kept giving me Hill's for him. It actually looks > pretty good. If I can find it I'll give it a shot. d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order it. Though if it is > the same consistancy of the other Hill's prescription canned foods, he > likely won't touch it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > just all the corn gluten meal (nope, not starting that argument up in > here again!). Rice doesn't induce gluten enteropathy - so he shouldn't have a problem. When we switched vets and she told me to take him off > SD dry food including the Hills ID and ZD that didn't change anything, > I switched him over to Wellness and the number of times per day he [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Shamrock. The normal BMs didn't last but the frequency is still much > lower. He also doesn't seem as bloated (hard stomach). Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very small increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned food? This might make the transition a little easier - it doesn't work on all cats - but its worth a shot. > > The key nutritional factors for cats with IBD are 15 - 22% fat and > 30 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I've never heard a cat purr as much as he does when I put down the > little bit of dry. If he's already eating canned, gradually taper the dry food until he's eating all canned. > > The next step would be home cooked diet. > > I've been trying that. He doesn't like my cooking. :) Plain cooked > chicken or turkey he would be fine with. Once I add some calcium and > vitamins, he doesn't like it. Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately. Although a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called palat?able or chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple?ment- use fractionated doses from a multivitamin and min?eral supp. The flavored supplements could contain potentially allergenic proteins or additives. I only do this to get past some of the > worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough. I > talked with his vet and she said there are so few recipes out there > published for IBD cats and the plain chicken is one of the only ones. I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back to my main computer. Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce inflammation. Did you ever try the glutamine you asked about? Good luck Phil > d/d is a prescription diet, so your vet will probably have to order > it. Taking Shamrock tomorrow so I'll have them order some if they don't have it. > Have you tried gradually adding water to his dry food -- in very > small increments -- until the consistency is similar to canned > food? This might make the transition a little easier - it doesn't > work on all cats - but its worth a shot. I've tried that, tried mixing the dry with canned also. He's down to a very little bit of dry food now. I think the crappy Friskies is causing loose stools for Shamrock now. > Speak to your vet about a vit/min supplement - to give separately. > Although a balanced diet would be better. Don't use a so-called > palat?able or chewable veterinary vit/mineral supple?ment- use > fractionated doses from a multivitamin and min?eral supp. I only use natural supplements now and put them in gelcaps; both get fish oil each night: a 1000 mg cap dribbled into small gelcaps to make 3 doses, they each get one of those thirds. I got a Wysong supplement that you sprinkle on the food (contains catnip of all things!) which I only use when feeding the chicken and less real catfood. It has taurine in it. Now ya'll have me worried about too much protein and fat when feeding all meat. *sigh* Still giving the F&S VitaCaps (vet is ok with that for both kitties). > >I only do this to get past some of the >> worse flare-ups because I'm not so sure it's balanced enough [re: IBD recipes] > I think I have a few somewhere - I'll take a look when I get back > to my main computer. I'd appreciate it. > Have you tried adding omega-3s? They should help reduce > inflammation. See above re: fish oil >Did you ever try the glutamine you asked about? 1 600mg capsule every other day. > > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat > > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Taurine ... ......Can.. .0.30%......Dry... 0.30% > Carnitine... ...Can.. 524.2.........Dry... 553.9 (ppm) I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have carb levels that are far lower.. Jon >I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among others, have >carb levels that are far lower.. Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your comparisons? OR an "as fed" basis? >> I don't get it... how is 15.5% DM "low carbs"? Wellness, among >> others, have carb levels that are far lower.. > > Are you sure you're looking at the dry matter basis for your > comparisons? OR an "as fed" basis? I think he read "dry" as DM. > Carb... ...........Can...15.7%......Dry... 15.5% I don't know which it was that Phil replied with - I lost interest in the m/d and gained interest in the d/d. I have to take a little feral to the vet so I'll see if she has it. Doubtful, though, she's the one who said I should take Shadow off of Hills. I printed out the analysis and ingredients for her just in case, though. If he will eat it, the d/d looks pretty good. > > > Adkin's diet for cats? Steve, you elluded to this. Now that the cat > > > is out of the bag, do you feel like sharing? :) What is the protein [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jon Jon, The objective of a metabolic ketosis generating food is to switch the cat into a state of ketosis. Basically change the cat from utilizing glucose over to ketosis. Both MD and DM dry products are about 15% DMB carbohydrates. Both cause ketosis. Driving carbohydrates any lower serves absolutely no positive gain. An analogy is shooting a gopher. A 22 beullet through the head kills the gopher, a 12 guage shotgun will do the trick too. Either way the gopher is dead. If you can drive the cat into ketosis with 15% carbs, then it is possible to pay attention to other issues, like insuring there isn't excess levels of calcium and phosphorus in the diet. What happens when you go to extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age. Most wellness products I have looked at are always above the KNF levels for calcium and phosphorus, most likely due to buying less expensive meat meals with a higher levels of ground up bone tissue. You have to wonder how a food can end up with 1.5% calcium when chicken meat by itself is only 0.01% calcium. There is little calcium in the grains nor in other ingredients. The vast majority comes from ground up bones in meat meals - the cheaper the meat meals the higher the percentage of ground up bone tissue. I have not looked at wellness cat products in some time but just finished looking at their canine products. I presume the results will be similar. > What happens when you go to > extremes like Fancy Feast with 0.0% carbs, is that you end up with > calcium at 2.3% and phosphorus at 1.8% both waaaay in excess of > maximum levels appropriate for any adult cat, even a kitten, and quite > dangerous for a cat over 12 years of age. Yikes. The feline IBD group has posters talking about how FF is a lower grain food, and Sheba also. Yes, I look at ingredients now based on what my cat can tolerate and the FF has wheat gluten, which I've read wheat is an allergen the same as corn can be (allergen is the wrong word; harder to digest may be the right words). I've actually tried switching my IBD cat to FF because it looks a step up from the friskies canned that he'll eat (won't touch any others). He's deteriorating quickly these days and I'm tempted to just let him eat the dry he likes and not worry about canned any more. If I try to switch him to a food that is good for his problem, he will starve to death and I know this because I've been trying. SignatureCheryl "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." -Mario Andretti. |
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