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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2004

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Odd Question, I know

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Hailey - 29 Feb 2004 21:38 GMT
My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.

Not only do I think it's gross, but I also think it is unhealthy. Only I am
at a loss as to offer proof to her. I mean I tell her the obvious: He licks
his butt, he bathes himself, he licks Tucker's butt, he bathes Tucker,
certainly licks any wounds which may come along... all with that sweet
little mouth! She uses the old adage "Cats mouths are cleaner than humans."
And I come back with, "Yeah, maybe that's true, I don't know. But they also
use them for everything and I don't want James eating outa my mouth! (Which
of course James tries when DD is not around, and he gets all hurt because I
won't let him LOL Poor kitty :( )

So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
or is it?
Please don't call me an idiot or anything, and yes, this is a sincere
question.

Hailey
Diane L. Schirf - 29 Feb 2004 22:59 GMT
> So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> or is it?

All I know is cat bites are supposed to be particularly septic (I've
been lucky, I guess), so that should give you an idea of the nature of
the bacteria in their mouths.

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Orchid - 01 Mar 2004 03:44 GMT
>> So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
>> or is it?
>
>All I know is cat bites are supposed to be particularly septic (I've
>been lucky, I guess), so that should give you an idea of the nature of
>the bacteria in their mouths.

    Cat bites infect easily because they are puncture wounds, not
because cats' mouths are particularly dirty.  Puncture wounds are
dangerous because they usually do not bleed enough to clean out the
wound, and cleaning out a deep puncture with antiseptic is very
difficult to do.

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Diane L. Schirf - 01 Mar 2004 04:00 GMT
> >> So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> >> or is it?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> wound, and cleaning out a deep puncture with antiseptic is very
> difficult to do.

I don't know that cat bites are necessarily puncture wounds. In fact,
the vast majority of my wounds have not been puncture wounds, but
scrapes that resemble scratches, because, believe it or not, when I feel
Hodge coming after me in predator/prey manner, I move rapidly, which
tends to prohibit him from sinking in. The one or two that were puncture
wounds did not become infected, although I don't remember treating them.
(I rarely bother.)

I have read the types of bacteria in a cat's mouth. We're not talking
"dirty"; we're talking bacteria. Unless a cat uses Listerine, they're
going to have all kinds of bacteria in their mouths.

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Cheryl - 01 Mar 2004 04:09 GMT
29 Feb 2004:

> I don't know that cat bites are necessarily puncture wounds. In fact,
> the vast majority of my wounds have not been puncture wounds, but
> scrapes that resemble scratches,

The serious bites that cats can deliver are puncture wounds.  I have had
plenty, and one serious one that should probably have been taken care of
in an ER, but I was lucky. Cat's teeth are very sharp and needle-like and
it is easy for them to bite you to the bone. Many people develop
cellulitus from cat bites which can lead to serious blood infections. Cat
bites should never be taken lightly.

That said, Shamrock is a biter but he has a broken fang (which the vet
chose to seal rather than extract) and his bites don't normally cause
broken skin but he can leave some nasty bruises.
Diane L. Schirf - 01 Mar 2004 05:10 GMT
> > I don't know that cat bites are necessarily puncture wounds. In fact,
> > the vast majority of my wounds have not been puncture wounds, but
> > scrapes that resemble scratches,
>
> The serious bites that cats can deliver are puncture wounds.

I didn't say they can't deliver puncture wounds. I was saying that they
aren't necessarily puncture wounds. Mine certainly aren't (the quick
reflexes of prey <g>).

Never use hydrogen peroxide, by the way.

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Marek Williams - 05 Mar 2004 01:34 GMT
>Never use hydrogen peroxide, by the way.

Why not?

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Sherry - 05 Mar 2004 02:06 GMT
>>Never use hydrogen peroxide, by the way.
>
>Why not?

I'm not sure what the OP meant, but I do know that peroxide isn't a good thing
to put on a wound that's trying to heal. It destroys the healthy tissue that's
trying to forrm along with the bacteria. I didn't know that until I had to go
to a wound care specialist for myself.

Sherry
kaeli - 05 Mar 2004 14:35 GMT
> >>Never use hydrogen peroxide, by the way.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> trying to forrm along with the bacteria. I didn't know that until I had to go
> to a wound care specialist for myself.

Wow, I didn't know that. I've been using peroxide to clean wounds
forever.

What did the doctor recommend for you to use?

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Sherry - 05 Mar 2004 15:22 GMT
>Wow, I didn't know that. I've been using peroxide to clean wounds
>forever.
>
>What did the doctor recommend for you to use?

In my case, it was a prescription med called Silvadene along with debriding
every week. . I'd had multiple artery-bypass surgeries (legs, neck, heart, etc)
and turned out to be allergic to the nylon filament stitches. So I had eleven
incisions that screwed up. Owie, owie. It was a mess.

Sherry
Sherry - 05 Mar 2004 15:28 GMT
>>Wow, I didn't know that. I've been using peroxide to clean wounds
>>forever.

Also, Kaeli, I think peroxide is probably fine to initially clean wounds with.
It's just that you don't want to continue using it after it starts to try to
heal.

Sherry
PawsForThought - 01 Mar 2004 15:33 GMT
>From: "Diane L. Schirf" delenn@mindspring-getridofthistoreply-.com

>"dirty"; we're talking bacteria. Unless a cat uses Listerine, they're
>going to have all kinds of bacteria in their mouths.

Cats can deal with their own bacteria.  Can we deal with theirs?  I think there
are certain things like the condition of a person's immune system that comes
into play.  I don't know, I kiss my cats all the time but I don't let them eat
out of my mouth.  Simple thing would be for the OP to tell her daughter not to
do it.

Lauren
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Laura R. - 01 Mar 2004 04:20 GMT
circa Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:44:45 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Orchid (neko@ascendancy.net) said,
> >> So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> >> or is it?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> wound, and cleaning out a deep puncture with antiseptic is very
> difficult to do.

According to the hand surgeons I had after Alex bit through my finger
and the side of my hand, cats' mouths are chock-full of bacteria. So
are people's. So are dogs'.

Frankly, however, I'd be a heckuva lot more grossed out by the fact
that cats lick poop off of their anuses.

Laura
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kaeli - 01 Mar 2004 14:51 GMT
> > So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> > or is it?
>
> All I know is cat bites are supposed to be particularly septic (I've
> been lucky, I guess)

So are human bites.

A cat's mouth is about as clean as a human who doesn't brush their
teeth.
Now, if you brush your cats' teeth, like I do, well, their mouths are
almost as clean as yours. *heh*

Google's cache of a study (original is a pdf)
http://216.239.37.104/search?
q=cache:f0qfTDR7bHUJ:www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2002/Projects/J1311.pdf+ca
t+mouth+bacteria+dog+human&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Results:
For each animal the number of colonies varied greatly. Dogs had an
average of 53 bacteria colonies grow
in the nutrient dish, cats had an average of 16 colonies, and humans had
an average of 5 colonies. There
were two dishes where the human had more bacteria than the cat and in
some cases no bacteria grew.

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Elizabeth Blake - 29 Feb 2004 23:07 GMT
> My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
> spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Please don't call me an idiot or anything, and yes, this is a sincere
> question.

I often offer the cats at work a bite of my sandwich - I just hold the
sandwich out to them and let them take a bite if they want.  Usually it's
Harriet who acts as if she wants some but she rarely does take a bite.
Stinky will, though.  Then I'll take a bite and I never thought much about
it.  I'd never offer them food right out of my mouth, only because I
wouldn't want my tongue clawed or bit accidentally.

At home, Otto will try to get into whatever I'm eating.  I usually chase him
away, because he will make a pig of himself and most likely puke it all up
later.  He doesn't do well with human food.  Tiger isn't as pushy and will
usually wait until she's offered something, unless it's deli ham or
cheese-in-a-can.  Then she's pushy.

I've never gotten sick from sharing with the cats, but it's not an everyday
thing.

Liz
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Feb 2004 23:08 GMT
> My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
> spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Please don't call me an idiot or anything, and yes, this is a sincere
> question.

It's not good for a cat to be eating people food, and it wouldn't be
good for your daughter to eat cat food so that the food she feeds her
cat would be good for it.  ;-)

That having been said, cats' mouths are very dirty -- probably almost as
dirty as human mouths.  On the other hand, there aren't many
communicable diseases that can be transmitted from cat to human and vice
versa.

I think the best argument is at the bottom of your second paragraph.  
She is getting James accustomed to something that he may look for from
others but find only from her.  She is doing him a disservice in his
socialization.  She'd be a better "mom" to James if she raised him with
a realistic expectation of people.   It'll make for less stress in his
life and more joy, and it would be more loving of her -- realistically
loving.

Priscilla
Priscilla Ballou - 29 Feb 2004 23:09 GMT
> > My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
> > spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> life and more joy, and it would be more loving of her -- realistically
> loving.

I forgot to ask... how old is she?  Is she old enough to understand
something like what I wrote in my last paragraph?

Priscilla
Hailey - 01 Mar 2004 01:59 GMT
> > I think the best argument is at the bottom of your second paragraph.
> > She is getting James accustomed to something that he may look for from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Priscilla

She is 17, so yes, she is old enough to grasp it, but she wouldn't agree,
nor do I, really. James does ask for it from the rest of us, but he does not
push himself on us, so he isn't really a bother. I tell him no and that's
that. Most of the time :)
But as for the socialization, I can't agree that is even an issue. The girl
who will be rooming with her next year also does not let James do it, and
James knows that too :)
The bottom line though, is not how I feel about it really. It's what I can
tell her about the stuff in his mouth :)

I have gotten some good ammo, so I thank you all!

James' Gramma Hailey hehe
m. L. Briggs - 01 Mar 2004 18:30 GMT
>> > I think the best argument is at the bottom of your second paragraph.
>> > She is getting James accustomed to something that he may look for from
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>James' Gramma Hailey hehe

The age between 15 and 17 seems to be the hardest.  Perhaps you could
encourage her to take some health-related courses in college.  Don't
worry too much -- time will take care of it, I am, sure.
MGW - 01 Mar 2004 18:47 GMT
>She is 17

Two suggestions:

1)  Ignore the behavior.  When she sees that it doesn't get a rise out
of you, that may take all the fun out of it

2)  Pick your battles.  Be glad she's doing this instead of piercing
her tongue or the like (I know, I'm making an assumption here).  For
that matter, if she needs to rebel, maybe you *should* fight with her
over this so she doesn't feel the need to find a more extreme way to
get your goat ;-)
m. L. Briggs - 01 Mar 2004 00:22 GMT
>My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
>spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Hailey

I think daughter is trying "to get your goat".  Ignore her actions.
I wonder how clean she is preparing food?  Don't think I would like to
eat in her kitchen.
Hailey - 01 Mar 2004 01:45 GMT
> >So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> >or is it?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I wonder how clean she is preparing food?  Don't think I would like to
> eat in her kitchen.

LOL she is amazingly clean in all other areas, except her room now and again
and you know what? You may be absolutely CORRECT! Didn't think of her trying
to get our goats with this little practice :) Thanks for that insight :)

Hailey
m. L. Briggs - 01 Mar 2004 20:05 GMT
>> >So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy
>practice,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Hailey

At mealtime, I fix something for the cat so that she can eat while I
do.  I serve it on her saucer on her eating mat which is not close to
me.  In my house, the cat is not permitted on the table or kitchen
counters.  If  I even see her thinking about jumping up see gets a
loud NO!

Besty of luck in solving your problem   MLB
Wendy - 02 Mar 2004 02:44 GMT
> At mealtime, I fix something for the cat so that she can eat while I
> do.  I serve it on her saucer on her eating mat which is not close to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Besty of luck in solving your problem   MLB

Oh, I wish "no" would work with Boots. "No" to him means stop it until
nobody is looking. I'm hoping he grows out of this. None of the others get
up on the table or counters.

W
Karen Chuplis - 01 Mar 2004 07:11 GMT
> My daughter feeds her kitty right out of her mouth. Off her tongue. Off her
> spoon. Out of her bowl or plate, while she is still eating.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Hailey

My cats wouldn't condone eating off a *huhmans* utensils or person (other
than fingers and even that is debatable!).

Karen
Rona Yuthasastrakosol - 02 Mar 2004 03:55 GMT
> So, my question is, anyone have any *proof* this is an unhealthy practice,
> or is it?
> Please don't call me an idiot or anything, and yes, this is a sincere
> question.
>
> Hailey

If you can get your hands on the February 23, 2004 issue of Time Magazine,
there is an article entitled "Cuddle With Care" about diseases one can get
from pets.  Here's the link to the first paragraph http://tinyurl.com/38ex9
but unfortunately you have to pay to read the rest.  I'd have typed it out
for you had my cat not bitten my finger (how appropriate), making typing a
bit difficult...and painful (the bite is right on the pad of my middle
finger--much like a blood test puncture but a bit deeper).

rona
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Hailey - 02 Mar 2004 07:14 GMT
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
I am sure MLB is absolutely correct and we decided to educate her then we're
letting it drop. It *is* better behavior than others LOL

She's a good kid but heck, she's a 17 year old.. and getting the old folks
rattled is probably fun :) We'll ignore her and then see how long she goes
along with it.
I also want to thank everyone for not criticizing, cus it was a *real*
question and I was very frustrated (by her) when I decided to write in to
the kitty experts!

Thanks, too rona, for the article :) I am going to read it as ammo  for her
brief education.

Hailey

> If you can get your hands on the February 23, 2004 issue of Time Magazine,
> there is an article entitled "Cuddle With Care" about diseases one can get
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> rona
Hailey - 02 Mar 2004 08:17 GMT
I actually went and copied the article Rona mentioned.

Going to have DD do a report on this :) Then it's not *me* telling her, it's
the experts.

Thanks again everyone!

Hailey

Here is the article:

Feb. 23, 2004 (TIME)
Deadly diseases that cross the species barrier and infect humans - like bird
flu and SARS - make big headlines these days. But if you're really worried
about getting an animal disease, you need look no farther than the fluffball
curled up on your pillow. Cats, dogs, hamsters and snakes are breeding
grounds for all sorts of microbes and swap molecules with us regularly. Our
pets share our air, furniture and food dishes. We change their litter, enjoy
their slobbery affection and endure their occasional bites.
Of the 1,400 or so recognized human pathogens, 61% are classified as
zoonotic, or naturally communicable between animals and people. Here are a
few of them:

CAT-SCRATCH DISEASE (CSD) This is a bacterial disease that cats transmit to
people through scratches, bites or infected fleas. More common in children
than adults, CSD triggers fever, enlarges lymph nodes and may damage major
organ systems.

TOXOPLASMOSIS A big problem for pregnant women (it can produce miscarriages
and birth defects), toxoplasmosis is caused by a protozoan that can be
picked up by eating undercooked meat or by contact with infected cat feces
more than a day old.

SALMONELLOSIS AND CAMPYLOBACTERIOSIS These illnesses, caused by bacteria
shed in the feces of infected dogs, cats, birds, farm animals and reptiles,
can cause diarrhea, nausea and abdominal cramping.

RINGWORM These are round, crusty skin lesions caused by a highly infectious
fungus that can spread via touch from cats or dogs.

MULTI-DRUG-RESISTANT STAPHYLOCOCCUS AUREUS This is a deadly emerging
pathogen usually associated with hospitals. Recently it has started showing
up in house pets and horses.

Don't get me wrong. As a veterinarian, I firmly believe that the benefits of
pet ownership far outweigh the risks. But if you're going to keep animals,
you need to use common sense and follow some basic rules of hygiene.

First, always get your pets from reliable sources and adhere to a regular
schedule of veterinary visits and vaccinations. Wash your hands after
handling pets, particularly reptiles, and get immediate treatment for any
parasites that show up. Don't let your pet scavenge, hunt or eat raw meat.
Avoid contact with your pet's feces, urine and other body fluids. And clean
litter boxes daily.

High-risk groups - small children, the elderly, pregnant women and the
immunocompromised - require special precautions. Ask your doctor, and your
veterinarian.

Capuzzi is a Philadelphia area - based veterinarian
Mary - 02 Mar 2004 16:52 GMT
> I actually went and copied the article Rona mentioned.

Thanks, Hailey! I wonder if there is any difference in animals that
stay inside
at all times and have had all their shots?
Hailey - 02 Mar 2004 19:07 GMT
I actually went and copied the article Rona mentioned.

> Thanks, Hailey! I wonder if there is any difference in animals that
> stay inside
> at all times and have had all their shots?

:) Unless they are kitty lovers they probably don't distinguish between the
two.
It would have to make *some* difference however, because they are not eating
live creatures, fighting with other cats (Or whatever LOL)
or any of the other things that outdoor kitties do.
However they do still lick themselves :)
I assigned the essay today and needless to say DD was not amused LOL We
homeschool so I do get to decide her assignments. She'll do it and I hope
she will figure out it makes some sense :)

Hailey

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