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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / March 2004Cat Parks
Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the city. What do you all think?  SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored > by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should > also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the city. > What do you all think? I think it's a great idea, I just don't know how it would work? My cats are NOT social with other kitties, like our dog was. My cats are GREAT socializers with people. have to check other ppl out, but not other kitties. Well I was asked by one of the candidates running for the Scottsdale city council how it would work. My idea is to have an indoor facility possibly with scratching posts, water stations, stuff to climb on, and of course a litter area if the cats need to go potty. The outdoor version might have these things but humans could walk their kitty on a leash and harness. There could also be an area for cats that like to go outside but may not get along with other cats. It certainly would be a great way for other cat lovers to socialize. BTW, this candidate for City Council is a cat person and has cats so if he elected he seemed open to the idea. I also brought up the issue of making declawing illegal within city limits. There is already an animal abuse code in Scottsdale so it could be ammended to include declawing. The candidate I spoke with says his cats are not declawed and the ones roaming in his neighborhood shouldn't be. It was certainly enough for me to want to vote for the guy (besides other issues). I hope he gets in because maybe my dream of a cat park and a law against declawing could become reality. Of course an anti-declaw law is not unusual since apparently North Hollywood has one so it would be nice if the city of Scottsdale has one. It'd have to be a wait and see since the elections for Mayor and City Council are in a couple of weeks. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I think it's a great idea, I just don't know how it would work? My cats are > NOT social with other kitties, like our dog was. > My cats are GREAT socializers with people. have to check other ppl out, but > not other kitties. > Well I was asked by one of the candidates running for the Scottsdale city > council how it would work. My idea is to have an indoor facility possibly > with scratching posts, water stations, stuff to climb on, and of course a > litter area if the cats need to go potty. That sounds like my house. Why on earth would anyone go though putting their cats in a carrier and listening to them howl in the car in order to bring them to a room with scratching posts (woo hoo!) and a bunch of people and cats they don't know, so they can then go find something to hide under, or, hiss and get in a fight with the stranger cats. Just go Google cat introductions and you will see how many cats can't stand the sight of other cats. Most cats that are fine with other cats don't go run up and play with them, either. It usually takes some time for the cats to get used to one another. Most cats don't like being in unfamiliar places. >The outdoor version might have > these things but humans could walk their kitty on a leash and harness. There > could also be an area for cats that like to go outside but may not get along > with other cats. It certainly would be a great way for other cat lovers to > socialize. BTW, this candidate for City Council is a cat person and has cats > so if he elected he seemed open to the idea. Still don't understand why this is needed. If you walk your cats on a leash, why do you need a designated place to do it? I thought the idea of a dog park is so the dogs can run off leash. Cat people can socialize many other ways, like volunteering at an animal shelter. > I also brought up the issue of making declawing illegal within city limits. > There is already an animal abuse code in Scottsdale so it could be ammended > to include declawing. OK, there's something I agree with. I wish it was illegal in the whole country. >The candidate I spoke with says his cats are not > declawed and the ones roaming in his neighborhood shouldn't be. Huh? Is someone going around declawing stray cats? >It was > certainly enough for me to want to vote for the guy (besides other issues). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Scottsdale has one. It'd have to be a wait and see since the elections for > Mayor and City Council are in a couple of weeks. I agree with the other posters. Your efforts would be better spent working on that would truly help cats like TNR programs for ferals and aid for shelters, not cat parks. Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com Well, the indoor version would also have some things our homes don't have like climbing tubes, more advanced cat towers (the kind you wished your cat had but can't afford), benches for the humans to sit on with their cats, and the list goes on. A cat park also might be beneficial for those who cats and would like to get them used to cat shows. Some cat shows have HHP (Household Pet) categories where you can show off your cat that isn't show quality. A cat park might be the way to go for those who want to get their cats used to being around other cats. I myself have been thinking of going to another cat show with Isis (I can't bring Jade because CFA shows don't allow declaws) since in some ways she is just fine with them. There was only one time she had an uncomfortable situation at one however but that was because Isis was benched in the ring next to a cat who took a swipe at one of the judges which set her off. I was then told by one of the show's workers that the cat was not supposed to be even next to Isis. Nonetheless, the next day Isis was normalizing and by the last ring was much calmer. So despite some cats not always being the most social of creatures with other felines there was also that possibility that Isis could get used to the shows. She just needs to go to more of them to get used to the sounds and smells. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > That sounds like my house. Why on earth would anyone go though putting > their cats in a carrier and listening to them howl in the car in order to [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > on that would truly help cats like TNR programs for ferals and aid for > shelters, not cat parks. circa Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:17:07 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, > So despite some cats not always being the most > social of creatures with other felines there was also that possibility that > Isis could get used to the shows. She just needs to go to more of them to > get used to the sounds and smells. Or you could just let her stay home where she's happy instead of torturing her for your own bizarre needs. Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > My idea is to have an indoor facility possibly > with scratching posts, water stations, stuff to climb on, and of course a > litter area if the cats need to go potty. Most cats would have all this in their homes. Why on earth would they need the stress of being leashed and dragged off to "socialise" with strange cats (cats, who are a nonsocial, territorial species)? And asking cats to pee in a public litterox? The whole idea is bizarre bordering on creepy. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ >Most cats would have all this in their homes. Why on earth would they >need the stress of being leashed and dragged off to "socialise" with >strange cats (cats, who are a nonsocial, territorial species)? >And asking cats to pee in a public litterox? The whole idea is bizarre >bordering on creepy. Absolutely. The only cats I know who are that social are show cats. And believe me, show cat's owners would die before they'd let their cats fraternize with strange cats *or* their owners, because of disease risk. Some cats actually like to be outdoors and travel. A cat park might be a nice way for human and cat to enjoy the experience together without having to worry about the cat going to far. There are cats that can walk on a leash and harness so a safe area where human and cat can walk is always nice to have. As for the public litterbox idea, each box would have plastic bags so you could spread it out in the box then use fresh cat litter for each cat. It may be a bizarre idea for a cat park but no more weider than dog parks. Yes, some might say dog parks are a nice idea because dogs are social animals but that would prove untrue. There has already been a dog killed by another dog at one of these parks but that was because at the dog park humans are allowed the option of their dog being off the leash and a large dog attacked a smaller one. That already proved a double standard. One of the other reasons for a cat park is because some humans who are active or like the fresh air would like to share that experience with a cat that is a real escape artist. There have been times that I'll be out in the fresh air walking and stop to watch the birds and say to myself "it'd be cool if Isis or Jade were here." Isis is leash and harnessed trained so it would be a feasible option for her. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "Diane L. Schirf" <delenn@mindspring-getridofthistoreply-.com> wrote in message news:p21%b.20948 > Most cats would have all this in their homes. Why on earth would they > need the stress of being leashed and dragged off to "socialise" with > strange cats (cats, who are a nonsocial, territorial species)? > And asking cats to pee in a public litterox? The whole idea is bizarre > bordering on creepy. > One of the other reasons for a cat park is because some humans who are > active or like the fresh air would like to share that experience with a cat > that is a real escape artist. So basically it's for the benefit of the human and who cares that it's bad for the cat? Yeesh. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ I think it would be great for the cats actually. I think my cats would enjoy watching the ducks and having some nice grass to play on. My cat Isis loves the leash and harness and my other cat Jade who is declawed certainly could be trainable as she seems to like going outdoors (under close supervision). SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > > One of the other reasons for a cat park is because some humans who are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So basically it's for the benefit of the human and who cares that it's > bad for the cat? Yeesh. >Most cats would have all this in their homes. Why on earth would they >need the stress of being leashed and dragged off to "socialise" with >strange cats (cats, who are a nonsocial, territorial species)? >And asking cats to pee in a public litterox? The whole idea is bizarre >bordering on creepy. You are right, the idea of an indoor cat park makes no sense. I do think there ought to be some safe places in which a person could walk a cat on a leash, however. I'm not sure an outdoor cat park would be the answer since as pointed out, cats aren't generally too interested in socializing with strange cats. To me a good place to walk a cat on leash would be a wooded area with a pathway, perhaps contained by cat-proof fencing, and no dogs allowed, but since not too many people actually take their cats to parks and forest preserves for walks as we do, I don't think even a cat park such as that would be much in demand. Most people that walk their cats want to do so in their own neighborhood rather than take the cat for a car ride. And you really don't want to walk your cat in a place where you know there will be a number of other cats around, either. > Well I was asked by one of the candidates running for the Scottsdale city > council how it would work. My idea is to have an indoor facility possibly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > socialize. BTW, this candidate for City Council is a cat person and has cats > so if he elected he seemed open to the idea. A thought about this--I don't think it would be a smart idea to have community water bowls and litter boxes. Too much chance of germs, disease, or other ailments being spread that way. At the HS I volunteer at it's a huge no-no to have community anything for that reason. We have to wash all brushes, toys, etc. before using them on another animal. Well people would have to bring their own water bowls for the cats. As for the litterboxes they wouldn't have to be shared. Maybe they could have disposables available. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > Well I was asked by one of the candidates running for the Scottsdale city > > council how it would work. My idea is to have an indoor facility possibly [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > reason. We have to wash all brushes, toys, etc. before using them on > another animal. >Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored >by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should >also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the city. >What do you all think? Cripes, CP. There you go again, asking "What do you all think?" ... when you really don't want to hear it. What do I think? Go find out how many cats are homeless, starving, and being killed in shelters in the Scottsdale, Arizona area. Then figure out what's more important....some stupid exclusive city-sponsored "cat park" or for the city to beef up funds for the animal shelter, hold adapt-a-thons, arrange to keep them longer in the city shelter, provide low-cost spay/neuter, or improve animal housing there. City funds are better spent. You've already proven you think your cats' radio station is more important than starving, homeless strays at your complex. And that's "what I think". Sherry > Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored > by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should > also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the city. > What do you all think? I think it's apples & oranges. What makes sense for a bunch of dogs & their owners doesn't necessarily make sense for a bunch of cats & their owners. The only possible scenario I'm coming up with would be for a big city dweller, who has no lawn space or screened porch, etc. at home, & would like their cats to experience the outdoors - fresh air, sights & sounds of the outside at ground level, grass, whatever. (Many large city buildings have no screens in their windows, so kitty can't always safely sit in an open window for fresh air & sounds of the great outdoors.) But there would probably have to be secure individually enclosed areas for each person to bring their cat(s) - to prevent cats from getting stuck up in trees, cat fights, cat/dog fights, etc., etc. Then there'd be the vaccination issue, if cats could possibly interact w/ eachother. And would collars, harnesses, &/or leashes be required? Etc., etc. As I said, apples & oranges, IMO. Cathy -- "Staccato signals of constant information..." ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon > > Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored > > by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should > > also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the > city. I know there are exceptions, like show cats for example, but in my experience most cats don't seem to enjoy being around large numbers of other cats or being too near humans other than their owners. Show cats have also gotten used to other cats at a young age. Another group of cats that might enjoy the park are shelter cats. I know some of the shelters out there have cat rooms where the cats interact with each other. Sure there are a few spats but they are minor. Once adopted from these shelters some of these cats are easily sociable with already exisiting cats. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I know there are exceptions, like show cats for example, but in my > experience most cats don't seem to enjoy being around large numbers of > other cats or being too near humans other than their owners. circa Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:02:10 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, > Show cats have also gotten used to other cats at a young age. Another group > of cats that might enjoy the park are shelter cats. I know some of the > shelters out there have cat rooms where the cats interact with each other. > Sure there are a few spats but they are minor. Once adopted from these > shelters some of these cats are easily sociable with already exisiting cats. Do you smoke crack? How can you be so ignorant of cat interaction after all this time? Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > Right now they have dog parks in the city where we live that are sponsored > by the city, but I couldn't help but think that maybe we cat lovers should > also have place to go with our feline friends that is sponsored by the city. > What do you all think? I don't think that most cats would enjoy a cat park. First, many cats don't enjoy riding in a car. And bringing cats to a new place, outdoors (where maybe they haven't been before), with a bunch of other unfamiliar cats, could be a disaster. And just because your cat may enjoy meeting other felines in your home doesn't mean that they will in a strange place. (I volunteer in at our local humane society and have seen the reaction of cats, even ones who've been there a while and have seen other cats. It's not always positive.) I think that if a cat enjoys traveling/going to new places, the owner should consider options that don't involve such confrontations. Some examples are going to the pet store or getting your cat approved to visit nursing homes/hospitals etc. *gets off soap box* Rene I have seen the other side to shelter cats. One of the shelters in Glendale has a cat room where the cats freely interact with each other. There are a few spats but none end up in full blown fights. But most of the time the cats will tolerate each other and even develop friendships with other felines. As for travelling cats, you left out another idea and that is a cat show. I think some cats might actually get used to being around other cats by going to them. This especially holds some truth to those felines who are indoors most of the time with maybe one or two other cats in the home. My cat Isis has only been to two cat shows. One she actually competed in (HHP category). To get her used to the show, I walked around with her so she could see the other cats and experience the sounds and smells. In some ways she was perfectly ok and never squirmed as if she was trying to get away. In other ways, she was glad to have a comfort zone inside the cage where she was benched. Of course that was her first cat show where she competed so I expected a little nervousness but it did show that given enough time and cat shows, Isis might have no problem being at them. I was told that positive re-assurance, taking her to places like Petsmart before the show so she can get used to the sounds (like the announcements, etc), and maybe having a mock cat show at home where she is handled in the same way the judges handle show cats, is a good way for her to get used to them. Isis is a beautiful cat and in her first ring at a cat show got a 5th place ribbon. The surpising thing was that she was very calm being in the ring so that was a major hurdle for her. That pretty much showed to me that she could handle cat shows given enough of them. Jade on the other hand doesn't have that benefit given that CFA rules say no declawed cats. It's a real shame on that one because Jade is a very pretty cat as well. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I don't think that most cats would enjoy a cat park. First, many cats > don't enjoy riding in a car. And bringing cats to a new place, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rene >I think that if a cat enjoys traveling/going to new places, the owner >should consider options that don't involve such confrontations. Some >examples are going to the pet store or getting your cat approved to >visit nursing homes/hospitals etc. One of our cats really enjoyes traveling and going to new places, but not if these new places have unknown people or other pets in them--confrontations, as you say. Our other cat basically just goes along because she follows the first cat, but it isn't such a thrill for her. But both of these cats have been traveling since kittenhood--we purposely raised them to be good travelers. Most people don't do that, and I don't see the sense of forcing it on an adult cat if the cat is going to hate it. For our cat, taking walks in forest preserves or parks is a lot of fun for her, but most cats are probably not going to enjoy that sort of activity in a strange place unless they have been accustomed to it while young. I read all the other entries for this topic, and I have to agree with most of the facts presented, those facts being (at least for us)-- 1: Cats (at least mine) are not social with other kitties. Mine hate other kitties. And they have to examine new people, and old friends for that matter, for a bit of time, usually a good bit for strangers who visit, before becoming less threatened. 2: the risk of a cat escaping while in some sorta park environment is not worth the risk. In fact, given the story I told about our Snickerdoodle being in the back of the big truck (and no one knew) and then whizzing past my DH, once the back door opened, to escape cus he was scared out of his mind, never to be seen again :(. I'd never risk that again. In any way. And *my* kitties *would* strain to escape. 3: we all do (most of us) have at least some of these things at home for kitty, and they prefer to socialize only with their own families, and their own kitty *brothers/sister* With the scent of other kitties on a scratching post, Tucker would simply spend his time hissing at it LOL 4: My cats HATE to travel. Well, hate the cat carriers anyway. Vet days are hell. The little one screams the minute the carrier comes out, which is always the night before a visit, except in emergencies. He hisses at it LOL we keep in a corner away from him, but he goes over and hissssssses. 5: Neither of our cats does well on a leash. The little one, who is indoor ONLY, *really* hates it! He squats exactly the place we put in on and he won't move. Sometimes a little tug will encourage him to move maybe a foot. Gonna try again this summer, but without much hope and we won't try very hard. 6: My kitties would *never* go potty in a strange litter box. Heck, when we switched from the three tiered one to booda boxes (one for each, though they share) they freaked out LOL! cats by nature, leave their scent around and it would drive Tucker and James nuts. 7: The risk of exposing my cats to something (very possible) is not worth the effort or risk since they hate socializing anyway. They don't need more vet visits, or pills or shots, because they got exposed to something :( That's about it, I think some very germane points were brought up, and after hearing them, I agree. On the surface it might sound like a fun idea, til you take into account it is really only the cat's people who are socializing and the cats are cowering, hissing, spitting, screeching, wailing, fighting, straining their leashes and wondering what the hell they did to make their people so mad as to expose them to this kind of thing! But I don't think ideas are a bad thing to toss out and get ppl thinking about. Hailey =^..^= >5: Neither of our cats does well on a leash. The little one, who is indoor >ONLY, *really* hates it! He squats exactly the place we put in on and he >won't move. Sometimes a little tug will encourage him to move maybe a foot. >Gonna try again this summer, but without much hope and we won't try very >hard. :) Ah, the 'I'm paralyzed' response. Here are some tips. :) 1. Start out by simply putting the harness on your kitty. Give them lots of treats. Praise them. Take the harness off after a minute or so. Praise your kitty. Give them lots of treats. 2. Gradually extend the amount of time your kitty stays in the harness, always treating while the harness is on, and always treating when the harness comes off. 3. Eventually the cat will move. I promise. :) Encourage movement with a teaser, or even catnip. Don't worry about the leash. Leave the leash off. 4. When kitty is comfortable in the harness (walking around, etc), add the leash. Let the kitty drag the leash around for a while. 5. When kitty is comfortable with harness and leash, it's time to try going outside. Don't expect the cat to walk with you like a dog -- let the cat lead. Eventually you can start training loose-lead walking, but start out letting the cat go where it wants to. Praise and treats, praise and treats. Eventually, your kitty will associate the harness with getting to go outside, and will start getting excited when s/he sees it. Congrats -- you have a harness-trained cat. :D Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid circa Wed, 25 Feb 2004 19:34:34 -0500, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Orchid (neko@ascendancy.net) said, <liberal snipping for comedic effect> > ...Give them > lots of treats....Give them lots of treats....always treating [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > outside, and will start getting excited when s/he sees it. Congrats > -- you have a harness-trained cat. :D Eventually, your kitty had *better* start walking on the leash, 'cause she's gonna be FAT! ;-) Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > Eventually, your kitty had *better* start walking on the leash, > 'cause she's gonna be FAT! ;-) My cat actually does associate the leash with going outside and all good things that come with that, and yes, she's fat :-). However, she got fat independently of leash training :-). Don't know if that's a good thing or a bad one, especially since I never actually trained her to use a leash, but at least she loves it! (she runs to the door when I jingle it) rona Signature***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!*** Cool, thanks tons Orchid :) It's the leash he hates, so I leave the whole thing off, but didn't think of letting him just run around with the harness on. Hailey > :) Ah, the 'I'm paralyzed' response. Here are some tips. :) > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >>5: Neither of our cats does well on a leash. The little one, who is indoor >>ONLY, *really* hates it! He squats exactly the place we put in on and he [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >outside, and will start getting excited when s/he sees it. Congrats >-- you have a harness-trained cat. :D Excellence advice. I just want to add one thing to Orchid's wonderful step by step guide to leash-training--don't tug on the leash. Cats hate to feel as though you are forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Most of the time that will just make them more determined to do the opposite. I think the problem for a lot of people in leash training is the expectation that it will be similar to walking a dog. I've heard lots of people say they can't leash train their cat because the cat just freezes when they put the harness on. I second Orchid's promise that the cat will forget about the harness eventually and move. I've helped friends with trying to leash train and trust me, sooner or later the cats all got accustomed to wearing a harness, even if at first they acted as though the harness weighed so much they couldn't even take a step with it on. > Excellence advice. I just want to add one thing to Orchid's wonderful step by > step guide to leash-training--don't tug on the leash. Cats hate to feel as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > even if at first they acted as though the harness weighed so much they couldn't > even take a step with it on. Thanks! > On the surface it might sound like a fun idea, til > you take into account it is really only the cat's people who are > socializing and the cats are cowering, hissing, spitting, screeching, > wailing, fighting, straining their leashes and wondering what the hell > they did to make their people so mad as to expose them to this kind of > thing! Yeesh. I know mine would hate it. I don't think I could enjoy socializing with other cat slaves in that environment. > til > you take into account it is really only the cat's people who are socializing My first thought was, "What a selfish idea." It's all about ME instead of what's good for the cat. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ Not really. Some cats are social butterflies. I have seen some cats around here where I live that seem to get along. A few months ago I was walking to my car and was surpised to see two cats who were resting on the grass near each other. They didn't even hiss. They might have been related cats from the same household but at the time seemed highly unlikely. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > > til > > you take into account it is really only the cat's people who are socializing > > My first thought was, "What a selfish idea." It's all about ME instead > of what's good for the cat. > Some cats are social butterflies. All cats need to be introduced to each other. Most cats are not social, and when they are it is only after a period of introduction. The whole idea shows a real lack of understanding of cats and some serious anthropomorphising and selfishness. Go hang out at a coffeeshop and spare the cats. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ Notice I did not say all. Some cats actually get along very easily with other cats. Do you feel cat shows are a bad idea as well? SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "Diane L. Schirf" <delenn@mindspring-getridofthistoreply-.com> wrote in message news:atd%b.21802 > All cats need to be introduced to each other. Most cats are not social, > and when they are it is only after a period of introduction. The whole > idea shows a real lack of understanding of cats and some serious > anthropomorphising and selfishness. > > Go hang out at a coffeeshop and spare the cats. circa Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:17:47 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, > Notice I did not say all. Some cats actually get along very easily with > other cats. Do you feel cat shows are a bad idea as well? CP, the _reality_ is, cats do not naturally like casual contact with other cats. Period. Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > Notice I did not say all. Some cats actually get along very easily with > other cats. Do you feel cat shows are a bad idea as well? Cats do not come into contact with other cats all that often at cat shows. It's too good a way to spread URIs. In fact, at the few I went to, the owners didn't even want people touching their cats because they could spread germies between kitties. Signature-- ~kaeli~ A lot of money is tainted - It taint yours and it taint mine. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace >> Notice I did not say all. Some cats actually get along very easily with >> other cats. Do you feel cat shows are a bad idea as well? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >In fact, at the few I went to, the owners didn't even want people >touching their cats because they could spread germies between kitties. True. The point of cat shows is not to bring your cat to socialize with other cats. Cat show people in fact try to minimize exposure to other cats--that's one reason that many cages have covers or other arrangements to allow the cats to hide and not to have to see other cats. Of course, you do want the cats not to get too upset at the sight of another cat, but other than seeing them they don't interact, nor would you want them to. > > Some cats are social butterflies. > > All cats need to be introduced to each other. Newcomers join feral cat colonies all the time without introductions overseen and controlled by humans. I've managed feral colonies for 16 years and I've only once seen a serious fight between a colony cat and a stranger, both small, subordinate and female. > Most cats are not social, Some cats are not social. Most cats benefit from interaction with their peers. At the very least, the presence of other cats breaks the monotony of solitary lives. As far as the health risks, why would there be more risks to vaccinated cats at "cat parks" than there are to vaccinated dogs at dog parks? The biggest drawback, imo, to "cat parks" would be getting the cats to come to their caregivers when it's time to leave. > and when they are it is only after a period of introduction. I have never used the formal introduction process when bringing a new cat into my multi-multi-multi cat household. There's some hissing, some chasing, some hiding, an occasional whack on the head, but they work it out. "My" cats are used to a steady stream of cats, fosters, returnees, escapees, strays and ferals in recovery or rehabilitation. All but a few have grown quite gregarious about the whole process. Older cats with considerable social clout, the generals, recruit newcomers as privates and, if the newbees are lucky, they become lieutenants. Once the new cats form an alliance with a dominant cat, they're in and cats from other groups won't bother them. > The whole idea shows a real lack of understanding of cats Frankly, I think your categorical statement about the sociability of cats shows a lack of understanding about the behavior of cats in large groups or colonies. People keep one or two pussycats isolated in their households and then declare all cats unsocial and unable to cope with the presence of strange cats. "Ain't necessarily so." (snip) >> Most cats are not social, > >Some cats are not social. Most cats benefit from interaction with their >peers. At the very least, the presence of other cats breaks the >monotony of solitary lives. I agree --but only in their own circle, their own homes. It's rare to find a cat who will accept a newcomer in a friendly fashion, on unfamiliar territory. >As far as the health risks, why would there be more risks to vaccinated >cats at "cat parks" than there are to vaccinated dogs at dog parks? I don't know about dogs, but there are plenty of fatal/chronic diseases for which there is no cure or preventive. Herpes. Ringworm. FIP come to mind immediately. (snipped) >I have never used the formal introduction process when bringing a new >cat into my multi-multi-multi cat household. Then how do you quarantine them for health purposes? If you don't isolate, you risk disease. IMO, you're very lucky you haven't had problems with inappropriate elimination or other signals that the cats are stressed. (snipped) >> The whole idea shows a real lack of understanding of cats > >Frankly, I think your categorical statement about the sociability of >cats shows a lack of understanding about the behavior of cats in large >groups or colonies. We aren't talking about established groups or colonies. We're talking about taking the very "two pussycats isolated in their own households unable to cope with strange cats" which you mentioned and throwing them together at a "cat park." Sherry (snip) > I don't know about dogs, but there are plenty of fatal/chronic > diseases for which there is no cure or preventive. Herpes. Dogs can contract Herpes, too. > Ringworm. Dogs can contract ringworm, too. > FIP come to mind immediately. The most recent research on FIP indicates the fatal form of FIP is not "caught". Coronviruses are endemic and in some cats, perhaps because of a genetic predisposition, the virus mutates to become an active, fatal FIP infection. > (snipped) > > Then how do you quarantine them for health purposes? No cat comes into my house without a combo FIV/FeLV test, not even in a trap overnight, and no cat or kitten is allowed to intermingle with the resident cats without a minimum of two 4-in-1 vaccinations. (I do mix kittens in my designated "kitten room" after two Panleuk-only vaccinations, administered at two week intervals beginning at 4 weeks.) This means at least two weeks transpire between arrival and contact with resident or unrelated cats and kittens. I should say "theoretically". There have been a few mishaps over the years when a feral cat has escaped from an unsecured or faulty trap while being transported from vehicle to feral cat recovery room. They're still here, but a few have never ventured upstairs, even after all these years. They aren't afraid of the other cats, there's plenty of interaction with them in the garage and in the yard, but they pretend (?) to have a deep and abiding hatred for me. > If you don't isolate, you risk disease. As I said, all cats are isolated or kept with littermates for at least two weeks, longer, of course, if there are symptoms of ill-health. > IMO, you're very lucky you haven't had problems with > inappropriate elimination or other signals that the cats are stressed. I didn't say there are never signs of stress. Whenever a new cat joins the group, there's a bout of spraying and bedspread peeing. There's hissing and guarding of the stairs. We, the humans and the cats, can live with it. It's a temporary upset, things settle down after a few days, as soon as the cats make the necessary adjustments in social rank. > (snipped) > > > We aren't talking about established groups or colonies. We're talking > about taking the very "two pussycats isolated in their own households > unable to cope with strange cats" which you mentioned and throwing > them together at a "cat park." I'm talking about an individual cat's ability to meet and greet strange felines. It takes practice to exercise social finesse, whether you're a colony cat or a housecat. Interacting with unfamiliar cats is like riding in the car or taking a bath, the more a cat does it, the better it handles it. >Not really. Some cats are social butterflies. I have seen some cats around >here where I live that seem to get along. A few months ago I was walking to >my car and was surpised to see two cats who were resting on the grass near >each other. They didn't even hiss. They might have been related cats from >the same household but at the time seemed highly unlikely. But the cats you describe were on *their* territory; *their* own turf. Plus the cats were already familiar with each other. It's not the same thing. Sherry > My first thought was, "What a selfish idea." It's all about ME instead > of what's good for the cat. I think that's it. CP is such a one-dot that he's using his cats to get some human companionship. Seriously, what kind of moron would prefer city money go towards a cat park rather than a trap & release program (is that the name? trap strays, spay/neuter, then release), free spay/neutering program, or no-kill shelter or some other kind of program that would actually do cats some good. Lest the Scottsdale councillor candidate seriously be considering this, someone should write to him/her to reveal the idiocy of this plan. rona Signature***For e-mail, replace .com with .ca Sorry for the inconvenience!*** > Lest the Scottsdale councillor candidate > seriously be considering this, someone should write to him/her to > reveal the idiocy of this plan. That's probably a good idea. If he is concerned about people running around gathering up strays and having them declawed, he needs a clue about the real issues. Well cats who are on leashes and harness might have a bit of a problem escaping. I agree with some of the posts regarding how some cats mught have a problem but it also might be a viable alternative to those arguments from people who believe cats should be outdoors. I for one would not let my cats run loose on their own but I certainly would not object to a cat park if it takes every precaution. Special fencing might keep the escape artist cat from escaping from their humans. Also cats that have come from shelters certainly might enjoy a cat park if they came from the environment where all the cats for adoption mingled with each other. I admit that a cat park might not be ideal for some cats but others might like it. The dog parks certainly have had their fair share of issues and it seems the off the leash ones are the worst idea because other dogs have gotten into fights. It also violates the leash law as well. Cats that are on leash and harnesses are easily recoverable and are probably less likely to get into fights. Nonetheless, I am glad to hear everyone's responses on this one whether they be pro or con. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > 2: the risk of a cat escaping while in some sorta park environment is not > worth the risk. In fact, given the story I told about our Snickerdoodle [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Hailey =^..^= > Well cats who are on leashes and harness might have a bit of a problem > escaping. I agree with some of the posts regarding how some cats mught have > a problem but it also might be a viable alternative to those arguments from > people who believe cats should be outdoors. People who let their cats out are not going to bother stuffing them in the carrier and hauling them off to some designated area in order to let them out. They are just going to open the door and let the cat out. >I for one would not let my cats > run loose on their own but I certainly would not object to a cat park if it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the cats for adoption mingled with each other. I admit that a cat park might > not be ideal for some cats but others might like it. You keep saying SOME cats. Do you realize this is a slim minority of cats? Even cats that came from free-roaming shelters had to be introduced to the other shelter cats. So far, your group of cats that might like this is: your 2 cats, and these free-roaming shelter cats. Also, how is the fencing going to keep the cats in the park? Is the park going to have a dome over it? Because that's about the only way to really keep a cat in. What about cats getting stuck up in a tree? What about if they hide somewhere and can't be found? > The dog parks certainly have had their fair share of issues and it seems the > off the leash ones are the worst idea because other dogs have gotten into > fights. It also violates the leash law as well. The whole point of the dog parks is BECAUSE there are leash laws, and people want a place where their dogs can run free, where they can play fetch and frisbee. The people who take their dogs to a dog park know they are running some type of risk of their dog getting into a fight, but these instance have been rare. Comparing dogs and cats is really an apples to oranges situation. They just do not socialize the same, and do not enjoy the same things. If you want your cats to enjoy the great outdoors, just let them out on a leash. Can't you see that this would be a collosal waste of money? Signature-Kelly kelly at farringtons dot net Check out www.snittens.com > Comparing dogs and cats is really an apples to oranges > situation. They just do not socialize the same, and do not enjoy the same > things. Dogs, like wolves, are pack animals (quite literally, stray and feral dogs will form packs, which can be a problem in urban areas). Once they sort out the hierarchy, they do okay. Cats are generally territorial loners. Hodge thinks he's a dog -- a dominant one. He humps, he chews, he plays like a dog. It's odd. But he got out into the hallway once when another cat was out there and terrorized, according to the beau. Hodge, at 15 lbs. at the time, ended up tail in air, pleased with hisself, while the other cat, a 6-lb. female, cowered under a bench. Can't blame her. When he's on a rampage, I wish I could find somewhere to cower. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ I have heard some people say their dogs are like cats and vise versa. I always seem to tell these people that cats are not dogs. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "Diane L. Schirf" <delenn@mindspring-getridofthistoreply-.com> wrote in message news:onn%b.21317 > Dogs, like wolves, are pack animals (quite literally, stray and feral > dogs will form packs, which can be a problem in urban areas). Once they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other cat, a 6-lb. female, cowered under a bench. Can't blame her. When > he's on a rampage, I wish I could find somewhere to cower. circa Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:14:39 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, > I have heard some people say their dogs are like cats and vise versa. I > always seem to tell these people that cats are not dogs. I don't suppose you could rephrase this in English as opposed to nutlish? Laura SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. Nutlish?? > circa Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:14:39 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, > Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I am Dyslexia of Borg, > Your a.s will be laminated. >Nutlish?? Nearly incomprehensible language spoken by nuts like CP. >> circa Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:14:39 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, >> Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> I am Dyslexia of Borg, >> Your a.s will be laminated. > Cats are generally territorial loners. Stray or feral domestic cats often form social, female dominated, groups around food sources. Large colonies are usually organized into several sub-groups with over-lapping nesting sites and free-for-all pathways to and from the food source. > Hodge thinks he's a dog -- a dominant one. He humps, he chews, he > plays like a dog. It's odd. But he got out into the hallway once when > another cat was out there and terrorized, according to the beau. You have one cat. He's forgotten how to act around other cats. At one time in his distant past, Hodge had littermates that defined his social world. Life was good for him when he was surrounded by his sisters and brothers. It's _you_ that has made him a "territorial loner". > Hodge, at 15 lbs. at the time, ended up tail in air, pleased with > hisself, while the other cat, a 6-lb. female, cowered under a bench. More proof that Hodge has lost any inkling of proper social behavior. Large males have nothing to prove to small females. Males generally save their ritualized combat poses for other males. (snip) > It's _you_ that has made him a "territorial loner". Er, no. I've actually studied the natural history of cats rather than projecting onto them. Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ > So far, your group of cats that might like this is: >your 2 cats, and these free-roaming shelter cats. Nix the shelter cats. CP just doesn't understand cats at all. Cats in shelters who are allowed to "mingle" with each other aren't just thrown together and immediately like it. There's a serious introduction period first. And No, they don't all like it. They are there because they *have* to be. They'd much rather be in a quiet home. The very idea of subjecting a shelter cat to FURTHER TRAUMA by hauling them off to some public park just because the owner is selfish enough to want to either show his cats off in public or use them for an excuse to socialize HIMSELF just burns me up. He just doesn't understand cats. At all. Sherry Actually the fencing proposed is much thinner. My apartment's back patio has a thin bar on top (which a cat can't jump up on) and bars below it (which a cat can get through). Of course on my back patio I am going to be buying some very thin screen wiring which they won't be able to get through. I know comparing cats is apples to oranges but it still would be nice to have a place where I can walk my cats on a leash and harness besides just around the outside of my home. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > Well cats who are on leashes and harness might have a bit of a problem > > escaping. I agree with some of the posts regarding how some cats mught [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > If you want your cats to enjoy the great outdoors, just let them out on a > leash. Can't you see that this would be a collosal waste of money?
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