Socializing shy cat to dog?

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NEM - 11 Feb 2004 22:02 GMT

Hi there: I could really use some advice from the cat experts.

We have a 2.5-year-old cat whom we dearly love and who loves us back
but is terrified of everyone else. In the interest of full disclosure,
I should admit that we did everything wrong to socialize her as a
kitten. (We had no idea what we were doing.) We adopted her from the
shelter when she was very, very young (the rescue workers said 8
weeks, but my guess is 5) and she bonded intensely to my partner
(still nurses her multiple times a day). We had just moved to a new
city and didn't know anyone, and so she interacted with very few
people and animals during her critical period for socialization. We
also did not work to build a food drive, so she isn't food motivated
at all (doesn't like treats or any food other than her bland
kibble--won't touch wet food or even milk, and we have tried many
different brands).

This past summer, we got a puppy, who is now 9 months old. We have
been trying to socialize the two, but haven't had any success. Since
we have a multistory home, we have kept the puppy on the first floor,
so the cat can have the second and third floors as her own territory.
We tried to entice the cat downstairs, first with food (no dice), and
then by ignoring her all day and calling her downstairs. This worked
for a while, but when we started crate training the puppy (lots of
crying and whining and barking) she got scared off and it's now very
difficult to get her on the same floor with him, even when he's crated
and/or asleep. Once he went upstairs and got a mouthful of her food.
She refused to eat until we put new, clean dishes down in a different
place.

The puppy has been wonderful. He does not chase her or bark at her.
But he is a loud, bumbling dork, and even mild interest in her on his
part (he will strike a play bow when he sees her) scares her half to
death. We have been training him to ignore her, but it is hard, slow
work, especially since she hardly ever makes herself visible to him.

We don't want to force the cat to interact with him, but it would be
nice to be able to have him upstairs sometimes. Does anyone have any
ideas? I'd like to classically condition it, so she develops a
positive association with his presence, but I can't think of anything
motivating (she's too freaked out to tolerate the things she normally
loves, like petting and fetching toys).

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to give the details. Thanks for
any advice--

Nathan

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Cheryl - 12 Feb 2004 02:38 GMT

2004:

> We don't want to force the cat to interact with him, but it would be
> nice to be able to have him upstairs sometimes. Does anyone have any
> ideas? I'd like to classically condition it, so she develops a
> positive association with his presence, but I can't think of anything
> motivating (she's too freaked out to tolerate the things she normally
> loves, like petting and fetching toys).

I don't have a dog, but have friends who do. I can see how they can be
intimidating to a timid cat. How about a harness for the dog? Maybe try
to get the kitty used to one, as well? Dogs can tolerate being tethered
better than cats which is why I say ease into it with the cat. Let them be
in each others presense briefly while both, or one, is tethered. Is the
dog kennel trained? If so, can you try to get the cat around the dog while
he's kenneled? I have a feral who was in a cage while being socialized and
my other cats got to know her while she was caged and no one was
intimidated. It would be good to find a treat that your cat will eat; it
works wonders. My feral sounds a lot like your cat and can't be bribed
with anything other than Wysong Cat treats. One of my other cats doesn't
like any treats or meat but loves raw chicken liver. These are "treats" to
[reward] enforce [good/desirable] behavior.

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Cheryl

Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet.
MIB II

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NEM - 13 Feb 2004 17:27 GMT

> 2004:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> like any treats or meat but loves raw chicken liver. These are "treats" to
> [reward] enforce [good/desirable] behavior.

Thanks, Cheryl. We have tried tethering (the dog, that is); even
holding the cat in our arms is too overwhelming to her. When he's
crated, she still hisses from a distance, which causes him to bark,
which causes her to retreat behind the radiator for hours. :( I will
try the Wysong treats and the livers; I had minor success with
freeze-dried chicken breast, but she now sees through that little
scheme. (She's a smart little @#$%!)

We're going to get much more systematic about having controlled
periods with both in the same room, but we need to find something
motivating to get her in the room in the first place. She hates his
smell and doesn't like to be anywhere she can smell him (won't get in
our bed if he's been on the sheets, for example). He holds a down-stay
pretty solidly now, so it should be easier than when he was a little
puppy. But she is so gloriously stubborn!

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Laura R. - 15 Feb 2004 18:43 GMT

circa 13 Feb 2004 09:27:12 -0800, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, NEM
(nem5902@yahoo.com) said,

> Thanks, Cheryl. We have tried tethering (the dog, that is); even
> holding the cat in our arms is too overwhelming to her. When he's
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> pretty solidly now, so it should be easier than when he was a little
> puppy. But she is so gloriously stubborn!

How long has it been since whichever one is newer came into the
house? You may have said, but I don't recall. :-)

Laura

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Your a.s will be laminated.

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Cheryl - 15 Feb 2004 21:29 GMT

Feb 2004:

> How long has it been since whichever one is newer came into the
> house? You may have said, but I don't recall. :-)

---begin copy & paste-----

> We have a 2.5-year-old cat whom we dearly love and who loves us back
> but is terrified of everyone else.

<snip>

> This past summer, we got a puppy, who is now 9 months old. We have
> been trying to socialize the two, but haven't had any success.

---end copy & paste----

I was hoping someone with experience with integrating both dogs and cats
would chime in. I'd like to get a dog some day; I have plenty of room and
a fully fensed in backyard and I LOVE dogs and I may have to go through
this some day. My sister did it with a full grown cat, then got a full
grown German Shepard rescue and then adopted a kitten and they all love
each other. I don't recall much of the integration but she said they
mostly all got along from the get go.

I wonder in this case if the "vanilla on the shoulder blade" trick would
help to make them all smell alike? I use feliway for my cats, but a friend
of mine tried the dog version and didn't see any difference with her dogs
behavior at all.

Signature

Cheryl

Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet.
MIB II

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Laura R. - 15 Feb 2004 22:17 GMT

circa Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:29:14 -0600, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cheryl (jlhshadow@NOSPAMhotmail.com) said,

> > How long has it been since whichever one is newer came into the
> > house? You may have said, but I don't recall. :-)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > been trying to socialize the two, but haven't had any success.
> ---end copy & paste----

Muchas gracias. I was lazy.

> I was hoping someone with experience with integrating both dogs and cats
> would chime in. I'd like to get a dog some day; I have plenty of room and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> of mine tried the dog version and didn't see any difference with her dogs
> behavior at all.

Well, it has been a while since I've done it, and honestly, I've
never had as much trouble as the OP has. I've not had my own dogs in
my adult life, but I had a housemate who did, and after a few initial
swipes and hisses, the cats pretty much ignored the dogs- except when
the dogs came into their "exclusive" turf (the house was a split-
level with only the kitchen being people-shared space). The dogs
weren't really allowed to come down into my part of the house much,
and when they did, Alex would usually biff them and they'd run away.
Of course, the cats had no such qualms about invading doggy-space;
they'd saunter upstairs and wave their tails at the dogs,
particularly if the dogs were out in the back yard and the cats could
sit at the door and taunt them.

The only thing that I can think of is a period of separation, where
the cat has a room that is completely off-limits to the dog, combined
with gradual reintroduction. It would probably be a good idea to wash
everything that has the puppy's scent on it and give the pup a
thorough bath to get rid of as much of his smell as possible, plus a
little vanilla (perhaps) during reintroduction. It might also be a
good idea to walk the dog by the cat's exclusive space when the cat
is in there, but to make it clear that the dog is not allowed to come
into the space. That way, the cat will know that it has a "safe"
area, and might be less restive about even seeing the dog.

If that doesn't work, I'd ask my vet about a pet behaviorist.

Laura

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Your a.s will be laminated.

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Cheryl - 15 Feb 2004 22:29 GMT

Feb 2004:

> The only thing that I can think of is a period of separation, where
> the cat has a room that is completely off-limits to the dog, combined
> with gradual reintroduction. It would probably be a good idea to wash
> everything that has the puppy's scent on it and give the pup a
> thorough bath to get rid of as much of his smell as possible, plus a
> little vanilla (perhaps) during reintroduction.

Lots of good points. A baby gate would be good in this case, since a dog
isn't likely to be able to jump it but a cat can with ease. I guess getting
the cat used to knowing he has a safe place is good, probably also leaving
a litter box in that safe space so he doesn't feel scared going to the box
and then ending up with an elimination issue. The bath idea is really
good!

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Cheryl

Trapped like rats. In a chia-pet.
MIB II

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NEM - 16 Feb 2004 15:55 GMT

> Feb 2004:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and then ending up with an elimination issue. The bath idea is really
> good!

I just looked up "vanilla + shoulder + cats"--thanks, Laura! I will
try this and see if it helps. I think we may have erred too far on the
side of caution. The cat had two whole floors entirely to herself
(stairs are baby-gated), with her food and litterbox inside the safe
space. As a result, she set up house quite comfortably and decided
that as long as she could call us into her territory (through pitiful
mewling) whenever she wanted, she was perfectly happy as an
upstairs-apartment dweller. What we're doing now is bringing the dog
up into *her* space, and making him down-stay while she watches him
from a distance. Several times a day, no interaction between them. He
gets treated for calm behavior. Eventually I think we will put the
baby gates in front of one room on the second floor (where the cat's
litter and food/water are). We also no longer respond to her cries
(difficult though that is), making her come downstairs if she wants
attention.

Cheryl, don't take our experience as anything like a normal
experience. Most people I know (and I've asked EVERYONE with dogs &
cats) has said that it's taken anywhere from one day to six months.
Our kitty is definitely an outlier.

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