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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2004

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Feral Cats & Roof Rats

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Cat Protector - 16 Jan 2004 18:48 GMT
Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be
used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the
Phoenix area (at least East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, and now Tempe)
Roof Rats have become a problem. Despite laying down traps, cleaning up food
sources like dropped fruit (from the citrus trees) and such, Roof Rats are
moving into other areas. From what I have read the ideas for getting rid of
them is vast. It seems predators can help at least keep the rats in check
but not totally eliminate them. Predators such as owls, hawks, and cats
(even though cats will often have trouble with the adult rats, they can take
care of the juveniles) seem to be good ideas besides snakes. When the
Arcadia area was having problems with the rats the city of Phoenix seemed to
think cats were not a good suggestion but I think a feral colony of cats
could be of some help.

The only problem I see with using cats is because rats seem to carry disease
but yet so far every rat that has been trapped by the County (Maricopa) have
not had any diseases. The other problem that cats might face is the use of
poisoned traps which could be very harmful to a cat if they eat a rat that
has the poison in their system. Also cats tend to eat their kill so they
might be a bit full from eating a good sized rat. But could a colony of
feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat
control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts.

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Knack - 16 Jan 2004 22:45 GMT
> Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be
> used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat
> control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts.

A cat with good hunting skills will kill more rats than it will eat. In
fact, domestic cats, feral cats, cougars and other wild cats have been known
to go into killing frenzies when the hunting is especially easy. In such
cases they may continue chasing and killing prey even when they're quite
hungry for a meal.

And you're right about predators *not* hunting their prey until there are
none left in their domain. What really happens is that as the hunting
becomes less profitable the predator either switches to a different prey
animal or moves to a more profitable area.

Barn owls and screech owls are other predators that can assist in the
control of rats without harming adult cats. There are web sites for the
purchase/construction of owl nestboxes. However, AFAIK owls will not live in
an urban area. A not too densely populated suburban area with ample tree
cover can be suitable habitat for owls though.
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT
Burrowing owls actually have been seen in urban areas. They have a large
wingspan for such a small owl. I suggested that feral cats be used as a
non-toxic natural way of killing off the rats. They'd go after the younger
ones but an adult Roof Rat might be a handful. Of course since I wrote the
last post I read another article which stated that a cat in Glendale, AZ had
brought home a Roof Rat so the problem is not just in South Scottsdale, the
Arcadia neighborhood, and Tempe. It is now also in Mesa and even North
Scottsdale. I called my parents today to let them know that they need to
pick the fruit off their trees (they have an orange, grapefruit and lemon
tree) pretty much every day. The problem is that in the area where they live
there are plenty of other neighbors who have citrus trees. I wonder if my
parents will be calling be asking to use my cats should they encounter the
rats.

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>
> "Cat Protector" <catprotector@cox.net> wrote in message

> Barn owls and screech owls are other predators that can assist in the
> control of rats without harming adult cats. There are web sites for the
> purchase/construction of owl nestboxes. However, AFAIK owls will not live in
> an urban area. A not too densely populated suburban area with ample tree
> cover can be suitable habitat for owls though.
Sherry - 17 Jan 2004 03:54 GMT
>Burrowing owls actually have been seen in urban areas. They have a large
>wingspan for such a small owl. I suggested that feral cats be used as a
>non-toxic natural way of killing off the rats.

Natural predation to kill off unwanted species is fine, but I don't understand
how the human intervention part comes in. The ferals that exist now in the
rat-infested areas will kill some of the rats on their own. But what are you
suggesting, trapping additional feral colonies and releasing them in the
problem areas?

Sherry
angstrom11@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2004 07:47 GMT
> Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be
> used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the
> Phoenix area (at least East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, and now Tempe)
> Roof Rats have become a problem. Despite laying down traps, cleaning up food
> sources like dropped fruit (from the citrus trees) and such, Roof Rats are
> moving into other areas.

Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought.
Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe
for wholesale disaster. Interesting and funny, since it won't
happen, I hope.

Cats as cute as they are, domestic cats, are not really set up
for killing adults rats as other animals bred for such purposes.
Have you heard the name of rat terrier?

Cats will kill small rodents on and on, but adult rats on
a large scale? Did you read the horror story in India where
an adult rat killed a cat, each about the same size, and then
dragged the cat into its hole, presumably to eat? This was
near the river, so a river rat. Ugh. Happened last month.

And if the cats do kill the rats, what do you do with a large
colony of predatory cats? You might end up giving a very bad
name to cats, as they start on other wildlife now that the
rats are gone.

Better to get lots of rat terriers which were bred to kill
rats? Now how do you put them on roofs, hmmm. Or is this
not a concern and the roof rats don't live on roofs?

And what do you do when there are not any more rats?

Probably the terriers are easier to round up than the
cats which are far more agile.

The saying here is that cats fight, dogs kill.

In a stand-off between a rat that is willing to fight,
you will notice a tremendous hesitation between the
cat and the rat. This is not the case with the dogs
which apparently don't think through the situation.

The cat's mouth is too small for killing easily a large
rat compared to the terrier. And cat's even as big-time
predators to small animals and birds gives lots
of thought to injuries that are possible from
engaging animals close to its size.

I guess that cats fight and fight, especially each
other, after posing and screaming at each other,
but not to the point of killing,
while dogs appear to fight to kill. Dogs have been
bred for that purpose and specifically for that
purpose, and especially certain breeds of dogs.
Like the rat terrier.

What do you think?
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 08:25 GMT
I am talking about ferals here and this is within a city area. I was reading
that in L.A. rats infested an area and they used cats (I'd imagine ferals)
to help eliviate the problem. However, the city is also not a big fan of
ferals. But it seems from some of the information I have read that if there
is an area that has a few rats and feral cats are removed, the rats
flourished and their numbers grew.  The Roof Rats have spread out into
different areas of Phoenix and Scottsdale. They also have made their way to
Tempe, Mesa and now Glendale. In fact a news article mentioned that in
Glendale they were discovered after someone's cat brought them a Roof Rat.

I have heard of Rat Terriors but have heard mixed results with them. It
seems on some Sites cats are favored as effective rodent control. Although
it should be noted that cats will often kill the younger rats. Roof Rats are
nasty creatures though since they will chew through anything especially
wires and such. Besides cats, other predators which hunt and kill rats
include owls, hawks, and other birds of prey. Snakes also like to eat rats
and so do ferrets. Coyotes would also be helpful but they would get to be a
nuisance.

These seem to be the best non-lethal way to kill the rats. Poisoned traps
can be harmful to cats and other animals because if a rat ingests the
poison, the animal that catches, kills and eats it could also be poisoned.
Also, these rats seem to move from an area when driven out of another. Some
of the news articles seem to state that the rats probably hitched a ride on
the backs of landscaping trucks in order to spread to new areas. Maybe,
feral cats can help here since the rats seem to have multiplied quickly.
Also, people need to clean up their yards as well and pick up all the fruit
from their trees since that is a food source.

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> Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought.
> Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> What do you think?
Mary - 17 Jan 2004 18:00 GMT
> I am talking about ferals here and this is within a city area.

Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What
a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea.
MacCandace - 18 Jan 2004 03:35 GMT
<< Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What
a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea. >>

Well, I don't think CP himself has a roof rat problem; he was just talking
about the area in general having a problem.  And calling an exterminator won't
help too much in this instance; maybe they can eradicate them from individual
homes but the problem is now so severe in the Phoenix area that "they" (those
in authority) say the rats will never be fully eradicated, just hopefully kept
under control.  The roof rats only got to Phoenix 2 years ago and were
primarily in one section of town called Arcadia where they have an abundance of
citrus trees (used to be citrus groves there).  They're yucky, bigger than your
average rat, and like to be up high (hence the name).  The area I live in is
right next to the abovementioned Arcadia so I'm assuming we'll be getting them
soon.  Our area also has quite a lot of citrus, several of my neighbors do
although we don't (we have a pecan tree, though, and I suppose they would
settle for pecans).  It's been on the local news a lot the last few days.  They
seem to have spread very quickly since last year.  I'll be exceedingly repulsed
and disgusted if we ever get them.

Candace
(take the litter out before replying by e-mail)

See my cats:
http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Cat Protector - 18 Jan 2004 18:50 GMT
I don't know why some people have to wage a flamewar over this topic. You
are correct Candace, I don't have Roof Rats but from what I have read here
is where the problem areas are: East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, Tempe,
Mesa, and now Glendale after a cat was discovered to have caught one. Yes,
the County has stated that exterminators will not do any good to kill the
rats. Laying down traps is not effective since it only accounted for
capturing 1% of them. Also poisoned traps do more harm than good because a
cat, dog or other animal would be at risk if they eat a poisoned rat. Also,
residents cleaning up their yards and picking the fruit from both the ground
and their trees also helps. However, after reading the news in the last few
of days stated that the Roof Rats because of the cleanups have been chased
into other areas and seem to be getting a lift on the back of landscaping
trucks.

Using natural predators might very well be a viable solution to keep the
rats in check. In fact I read that one area of downtown Los Angeles was
infested with rats and they flourished since that city removed feral cats
from the area. Once they brought back the cats the rat population was
reduced and kept in check at least. Beverly Hills was also an example where
Roof Rats made their home because the residents there removed a feral cat
population due to fears that they would attack the local wildlife there (in
the hills). As a result the rat population got larger. The same thing
happened in 1655 when the Mayor of London, England was convinced that cats &
dogs carried bubonic plague so he had them exterminated. The rat population
grew and got worse because he killed off the very predators that was keeping
the rat population in check. It was the rats that carried the disease. The
Roof Rats here in Arizona that were successfully trapped, have been tested
for this and other diseases including hanta which were negative.

Here in the Phoenix area, there are organizations which do spay/neuter and
release of feral cats. A few have actually looked for humans who would
provide land for them so feeding stations can be built. Perhaps the cities
effected by the rat problem would consider this and ask for humans to care
for the ferals so they don't get out of hand? These same rescue groups such
as Citizen's For Scottsdale Strays have stated that the feral cats would
make excellent pest/rodent control and are looking for land to house them.
They are one of the groups here who do spay/neuter and release of feral
cats. The only problem with the feral cat relocation is possibly the "vacuum
effect" where if one colony is re-located another takes its place which may
or may not be good. But a stable colony of ferals might be a solution for
rodent control. But as stated before a human would be needed to watch over
the colony and care for it. Protection of the colony would also be needed
because there are humans who would do harm to a cat. That is why the county
and the city officials need to drive home the point that if you harm a cat
then you will pay dearly for it.

If the city and county decide to use feral cats or other predators then
signs in the area where the colony is would need to be posted and
information regarding the plan would need to be provided to residents. The
local media certainly would be a good avenue to use besides the door to door
methods. It is apparent that if the officials don't come up with a plan then
we could be overrun by Roof Rats which are nasty pests. They chew through
wires, make their nests in buildings (as long as they have a small hole or
can chew through building material), and reproduce like crazy if not kept in
check. In a lot of neighborhoods where the rats make their homes there are
plenty of citrus trees for them to feed off of so simply trying to kill off
the entire Roof Rat population has proved almost impossible which means
keeping them in check may be the only option which means the use of
predatory animals.

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> << Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What
> a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea. >>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other
> than human."  (Loren Eisely)
Laura R. - 18 Jan 2004 19:53 GMT
circa Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:50:20 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said,
> I don't know why some people have to wage a flamewar over this topic.

Waaaaaah.

Get help from a qualified psychiatric professional.

Laura
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I am Dyslexia of Borg,
Your a.s will be laminated.

Sherry - 17 Jan 2004 14:12 GMT
>Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought.
>Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
>What do you think?

Cats really can keep the rat population down -- we had rats and mice in the
barn, and adopted four ferals a few years ago. They completely wiped them out.
The other side is, the ferals have to be neutered, vetted and provided fresh
water and food every day, too. Because if they weren't, with a steady food
supply, the rat problem turns into a feral cat problem. But the dachshund is
the amazing one-dog gopher terminator. It amazess me. I don't know *how* he
catches them.

Sherry
Mary - 17 Jan 2004 18:49 GMT
>But could a colony of
>feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat
>control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts.

I do humane wildlife control. You must make sure the rats have no food sources
or nesting sites. Secure trash can lids, make sure no one is feeding feral cats
or birds, tell people not to leave pet food outside, make sure they pick up all
dropped fruit, secure fruit trees and vegetable gardens with metal bands and
wire mesh. You need to make sure there are no small holes leading into people's
homes or garages where they can nest. Make sure there are no overgrown outdoor
places where they can nest.

Rats are nocturnal. Owls, cats and opossums hunt at night. They will all kill
rats, so will rat terriers and small dogs like Jack Russells. I think adding
feral cats may cause another problem down the line. Then people will want to
get rid of the cats. My choice would be opossums. Many opossums are trapped for
no reason and taken to local shelters and euthanized. Maybe you can encourage
those people to let you borrow the opossums for rat control? Hopefully people
won't mind the opossums. They carry no diseases, eat roaches, snails, slugs,
mice and rats, do no damage, will not attack pets or humans unless cornered and
provoked, and do not nest in homes. Whatever you do, DO NOT USE POISON. You
will end up poisoning non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and
humans. It also ends up in the water supply.
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 20:33 GMT
This is in Arizona and in the Phoenix area so we'd have no opossums except
in the zoo. Luckily in the Phoenix area, feral cats are lot more welcome.
They also have a spay/neuter release program in some areas where ferals
live. People aready war warned in the affected areas not to leave any food
source for the rats but this type eats fruits from the citrus trees and can
also hang out in them. Roof Rats chew through wiring in buildings and like
any rat can fit through a hole the size of a quarter. These rats also look
for openings in buildings and will have no problem getting between walls.
The Roof Rats also seem to be able to walk along the electrical lines and
move along the trees without the use of ground travel. Of course one cat in
Glendale, was able to nab one of these pesky critters so think of what a
feral colony could do.

Yes, there is the potential a feral colony could where out its welcome but
one of my suggestions would be to have humans in those area who would care
for the feeding and care of the ferals and also to make sure they were
spayed or neutered. The use of poisons is a given since that can harm other
animals and people.

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> >But could a colony of
> >feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> will end up poisoning non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and
> humans. It also ends up in the water supply.
frlpwr - 18 Jan 2004 22:46 GMT
(snip)

> Whatever you do, DO NOT USE POISON. You will end up poisoning > non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and
> humans.

The use of poison on ANY ANIMAL is inhumane.  No animal should be made
to suffer intentionally.  A rat is no less worthy of kind treatment than
a cat or a dog.
Cat Protector - 19 Jan 2004 00:33 GMT
I am not a big fan of poisons myself which is why I believe in using
non-poisonous forms of control.

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> The use of poison on ANY ANIMAL is inhumane.  No animal should be made
> to suffer intentionally.  A rat is no less worthy of kind treatment than
> a cat or a dog.
 
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