Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / January 2004
Feral Cats & Roof Rats
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Cat Protector - 16 Jan 2004 18:48 GMT Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the Phoenix area (at least East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, and now Tempe) Roof Rats have become a problem. Despite laying down traps, cleaning up food sources like dropped fruit (from the citrus trees) and such, Roof Rats are moving into other areas. From what I have read the ideas for getting rid of them is vast. It seems predators can help at least keep the rats in check but not totally eliminate them. Predators such as owls, hawks, and cats (even though cats will often have trouble with the adult rats, they can take care of the juveniles) seem to be good ideas besides snakes. When the Arcadia area was having problems with the rats the city of Phoenix seemed to think cats were not a good suggestion but I think a feral colony of cats could be of some help.
The only problem I see with using cats is because rats seem to carry disease but yet so far every rat that has been trapped by the County (Maricopa) have not had any diseases. The other problem that cats might face is the use of poisoned traps which could be very harmful to a cat if they eat a rat that has the poison in their system. Also cats tend to eat their kill so they might be a bit full from eating a good sized rat. But could a colony of feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts.
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Knack - 16 Jan 2004 22:45 GMT > Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be > used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat > control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts. A cat with good hunting skills will kill more rats than it will eat. In fact, domestic cats, feral cats, cougars and other wild cats have been known to go into killing frenzies when the hunting is especially easy. In such cases they may continue chasing and killing prey even when they're quite hungry for a meal.
And you're right about predators *not* hunting their prey until there are none left in their domain. What really happens is that as the hunting becomes less profitable the predator either switches to a different prey animal or moves to a more profitable area.
Barn owls and screech owls are other predators that can assist in the control of rats without harming adult cats. There are web sites for the purchase/construction of owl nestboxes. However, AFAIK owls will not live in an urban area. A not too densely populated suburban area with ample tree cover can be suitable habitat for owls though.
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 01:00 GMT Burrowing owls actually have been seen in urban areas. They have a large wingspan for such a small owl. I suggested that feral cats be used as a non-toxic natural way of killing off the rats. They'd go after the younger ones but an adult Roof Rat might be a handful. Of course since I wrote the last post I read another article which stated that a cat in Glendale, AZ had brought home a Roof Rat so the problem is not just in South Scottsdale, the Arcadia neighborhood, and Tempe. It is now also in Mesa and even North Scottsdale. I called my parents today to let them know that they need to pick the fruit off their trees (they have an orange, grapefruit and lemon tree) pretty much every day. The problem is that in the area where they live there are plenty of other neighbors who have citrus trees. I wonder if my parents will be calling be asking to use my cats should they encounter the rats.
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> > "Cat Protector" <catprotector@cox.net> wrote in message
> Barn owls and screech owls are other predators that can assist in the > control of rats without harming adult cats. There are web sites for the > purchase/construction of owl nestboxes. However, AFAIK owls will not live in > an urban area. A not too densely populated suburban area with ample tree > cover can be suitable habitat for owls though. Sherry - 17 Jan 2004 03:54 GMT >Burrowing owls actually have been seen in urban areas. They have a large >wingspan for such a small owl. I suggested that feral cats be used as a >non-toxic natural way of killing off the rats. Natural predation to kill off unwanted species is fine, but I don't understand how the human intervention part comes in. The ferals that exist now in the rat-infested areas will kill some of the rats on their own. But what are you suggesting, trapping additional feral colonies and releasing them in the problem areas?
Sherry
angstrom11@yahoo.com - 17 Jan 2004 07:47 GMT > Has anyone got information or stories about how a feral cat colony can be > used to help wipe out or at least keep in check Roof Rats? Here in the > Phoenix area (at least East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, and now Tempe) > Roof Rats have become a problem. Despite laying down traps, cleaning up food > sources like dropped fruit (from the citrus trees) and such, Roof Rats are > moving into other areas. Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought. Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe for wholesale disaster. Interesting and funny, since it won't happen, I hope.
Cats as cute as they are, domestic cats, are not really set up for killing adults rats as other animals bred for such purposes. Have you heard the name of rat terrier?
Cats will kill small rodents on and on, but adult rats on a large scale? Did you read the horror story in India where an adult rat killed a cat, each about the same size, and then dragged the cat into its hole, presumably to eat? This was near the river, so a river rat. Ugh. Happened last month.
And if the cats do kill the rats, what do you do with a large colony of predatory cats? You might end up giving a very bad name to cats, as they start on other wildlife now that the rats are gone.
Better to get lots of rat terriers which were bred to kill rats? Now how do you put them on roofs, hmmm. Or is this not a concern and the roof rats don't live on roofs?
And what do you do when there are not any more rats?
Probably the terriers are easier to round up than the cats which are far more agile.
The saying here is that cats fight, dogs kill.
In a stand-off between a rat that is willing to fight, you will notice a tremendous hesitation between the cat and the rat. This is not the case with the dogs which apparently don't think through the situation.
The cat's mouth is too small for killing easily a large rat compared to the terrier. And cat's even as big-time predators to small animals and birds gives lots of thought to injuries that are possible from engaging animals close to its size.
I guess that cats fight and fight, especially each other, after posing and screaming at each other, but not to the point of killing, while dogs appear to fight to kill. Dogs have been bred for that purpose and specifically for that purpose, and especially certain breeds of dogs. Like the rat terrier.
What do you think?
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 08:25 GMT I am talking about ferals here and this is within a city area. I was reading that in L.A. rats infested an area and they used cats (I'd imagine ferals) to help eliviate the problem. However, the city is also not a big fan of ferals. But it seems from some of the information I have read that if there is an area that has a few rats and feral cats are removed, the rats flourished and their numbers grew. The Roof Rats have spread out into different areas of Phoenix and Scottsdale. They also have made their way to Tempe, Mesa and now Glendale. In fact a news article mentioned that in Glendale they were discovered after someone's cat brought them a Roof Rat.
I have heard of Rat Terriors but have heard mixed results with them. It seems on some Sites cats are favored as effective rodent control. Although it should be noted that cats will often kill the younger rats. Roof Rats are nasty creatures though since they will chew through anything especially wires and such. Besides cats, other predators which hunt and kill rats include owls, hawks, and other birds of prey. Snakes also like to eat rats and so do ferrets. Coyotes would also be helpful but they would get to be a nuisance.
These seem to be the best non-lethal way to kill the rats. Poisoned traps can be harmful to cats and other animals because if a rat ingests the poison, the animal that catches, kills and eats it could also be poisoned. Also, these rats seem to move from an area when driven out of another. Some of the news articles seem to state that the rats probably hitched a ride on the backs of landscaping trucks in order to spread to new areas. Maybe, feral cats can help here since the rats seem to have multiplied quickly. Also, people need to clean up their yards as well and pick up all the fruit from their trees since that is a food source.
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> Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought. > Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > What do you think? Mary - 17 Jan 2004 18:00 GMT > I am talking about ferals here and this is within a city area. Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea.
MacCandace - 18 Jan 2004 03:35 GMT << Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea. >>
Well, I don't think CP himself has a roof rat problem; he was just talking about the area in general having a problem. And calling an exterminator won't help too much in this instance; maybe they can eradicate them from individual homes but the problem is now so severe in the Phoenix area that "they" (those in authority) say the rats will never be fully eradicated, just hopefully kept under control. The roof rats only got to Phoenix 2 years ago and were primarily in one section of town called Arcadia where they have an abundance of citrus trees (used to be citrus groves there). They're yucky, bigger than your average rat, and like to be up high (hence the name). The area I live in is right next to the abovementioned Arcadia so I'm assuming we'll be getting them soon. Our area also has quite a lot of citrus, several of my neighbors do although we don't (we have a pecan tree, though, and I suppose they would settle for pecans). It's been on the local news a lot the last few days. They seem to have spread very quickly since last year. I'll be exceedingly repulsed and disgusted if we ever get them.
Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail)
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"One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely)
Cat Protector - 18 Jan 2004 18:50 GMT I don't know why some people have to wage a flamewar over this topic. You are correct Candace, I don't have Roof Rats but from what I have read here is where the problem areas are: East Phoenix, parts of Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, and now Glendale after a cat was discovered to have caught one. Yes, the County has stated that exterminators will not do any good to kill the rats. Laying down traps is not effective since it only accounted for capturing 1% of them. Also poisoned traps do more harm than good because a cat, dog or other animal would be at risk if they eat a poisoned rat. Also, residents cleaning up their yards and picking the fruit from both the ground and their trees also helps. However, after reading the news in the last few of days stated that the Roof Rats because of the cleanups have been chased into other areas and seem to be getting a lift on the back of landscaping trucks.
Using natural predators might very well be a viable solution to keep the rats in check. In fact I read that one area of downtown Los Angeles was infested with rats and they flourished since that city removed feral cats from the area. Once they brought back the cats the rat population was reduced and kept in check at least. Beverly Hills was also an example where Roof Rats made their home because the residents there removed a feral cat population due to fears that they would attack the local wildlife there (in the hills). As a result the rat population got larger. The same thing happened in 1655 when the Mayor of London, England was convinced that cats & dogs carried bubonic plague so he had them exterminated. The rat population grew and got worse because he killed off the very predators that was keeping the rat population in check. It was the rats that carried the disease. The Roof Rats here in Arizona that were successfully trapped, have been tested for this and other diseases including hanta which were negative.
Here in the Phoenix area, there are organizations which do spay/neuter and release of feral cats. A few have actually looked for humans who would provide land for them so feeding stations can be built. Perhaps the cities effected by the rat problem would consider this and ask for humans to care for the ferals so they don't get out of hand? These same rescue groups such as Citizen's For Scottsdale Strays have stated that the feral cats would make excellent pest/rodent control and are looking for land to house them. They are one of the groups here who do spay/neuter and release of feral cats. The only problem with the feral cat relocation is possibly the "vacuum effect" where if one colony is re-located another takes its place which may or may not be good. But a stable colony of ferals might be a solution for rodent control. But as stated before a human would be needed to watch over the colony and care for it. Protection of the colony would also be needed because there are humans who would do harm to a cat. That is why the county and the city officials need to drive home the point that if you harm a cat then you will pay dearly for it.
If the city and county decide to use feral cats or other predators then signs in the area where the colony is would need to be posted and information regarding the plan would need to be provided to residents. The local media certainly would be a good avenue to use besides the door to door methods. It is apparent that if the officials don't come up with a plan then we could be overrun by Roof Rats which are nasty pests. They chew through wires, make their nests in buildings (as long as they have a small hole or can chew through building material), and reproduce like crazy if not kept in check. In a lot of neighborhoods where the rats make their homes there are plenty of citrus trees for them to feed off of so simply trying to kill off the entire Roof Rat population has proved almost impossible which means keeping them in check may be the only option which means the use of predatory animals.
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> << Call a GD exterminator and try to remove your head from your a.s! What > a stupid and dangerous (for cats) idea. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other > than human." (Loren Eisely) Laura R. - 18 Jan 2004 19:53 GMT circa Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:50:20 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Cat Protector (catprotector@cox.net) said,
> I don't know why some people have to wage a flamewar over this topic. Waaaaaah.
Get help from a qualified psychiatric professional.
Laura
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Sherry - 17 Jan 2004 14:12 GMT >Hi there again. You might want to give this a little more thought. >Maybe ask an ecologist. This sounds like a terrific recipe [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >What do you think? Cats really can keep the rat population down -- we had rats and mice in the barn, and adopted four ferals a few years ago. They completely wiped them out. The other side is, the ferals have to be neutered, vetted and provided fresh water and food every day, too. Because if they weren't, with a steady food supply, the rat problem turns into a feral cat problem. But the dachshund is the amazing one-dog gopher terminator. It amazess me. I don't know *how* he catches them.
Sherry
Mary - 17 Jan 2004 18:49 GMT >But could a colony of >feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat >control if the rats are healthy? I'd like to know your thoughts. I do humane wildlife control. You must make sure the rats have no food sources or nesting sites. Secure trash can lids, make sure no one is feeding feral cats or birds, tell people not to leave pet food outside, make sure they pick up all dropped fruit, secure fruit trees and vegetable gardens with metal bands and wire mesh. You need to make sure there are no small holes leading into people's homes or garages where they can nest. Make sure there are no overgrown outdoor places where they can nest.
Rats are nocturnal. Owls, cats and opossums hunt at night. They will all kill rats, so will rat terriers and small dogs like Jack Russells. I think adding feral cats may cause another problem down the line. Then people will want to get rid of the cats. My choice would be opossums. Many opossums are trapped for no reason and taken to local shelters and euthanized. Maybe you can encourage those people to let you borrow the opossums for rat control? Hopefully people won't mind the opossums. They carry no diseases, eat roaches, snails, slugs, mice and rats, do no damage, will not attack pets or humans unless cornered and provoked, and do not nest in homes. Whatever you do, DO NOT USE POISON. You will end up poisoning non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and humans. It also ends up in the water supply.
Cat Protector - 17 Jan 2004 20:33 GMT This is in Arizona and in the Phoenix area so we'd have no opossums except in the zoo. Luckily in the Phoenix area, feral cats are lot more welcome. They also have a spay/neuter release program in some areas where ferals live. People aready war warned in the affected areas not to leave any food source for the rats but this type eats fruits from the citrus trees and can also hang out in them. Roof Rats chew through wiring in buildings and like any rat can fit through a hole the size of a quarter. These rats also look for openings in buildings and will have no problem getting between walls. The Roof Rats also seem to be able to walk along the electrical lines and move along the trees without the use of ground travel. Of course one cat in Glendale, was able to nab one of these pesky critters so think of what a feral colony could do.
Yes, there is the potential a feral colony could where out its welcome but one of my suggestions would be to have humans in those area who would care for the feeding and care of the ferals and also to make sure they were spayed or neutered. The use of poisons is a given since that can harm other animals and people.
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> >But could a colony of > >feral cats (which we do have here in the Phoenix area) be a good form of rat [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > will end up poisoning non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and > humans. It also ends up in the water supply. frlpwr - 18 Jan 2004 22:46 GMT (snip)
> Whatever you do, DO NOT USE POISON. You will end up poisoning > non-target animals like dogs, cats, hawks, owls and > humans. The use of poison on ANY ANIMAL is inhumane. No animal should be made to suffer intentionally. A rat is no less worthy of kind treatment than a cat or a dog.
Cat Protector - 19 Jan 2004 00:33 GMT I am not a big fan of poisons myself which is why I believe in using non-poisonous forms of control.
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> The use of poison on ANY ANIMAL is inhumane. No animal should be made > to suffer intentionally. A rat is no less worthy of kind treatment than > a cat or a dog.
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