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Strange behavior that I have never seen

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Stepdawn - 16 Jan 2004 15:55 GMT
Hello all,

I am new to posting here, having just discovered this group.  I've had
kitties since I moved away from home in 1993 (after college).  My male cat,
Murray, 10, died last Mother's Day of heart failure.  Apparently he had a
congenital defect that no other vet ever caught.  Poor baby.  He was the
best cat.

That left me with my female, Boo, who is also 10.  She seemed a bit lonely
but made the adjustment well.  She'd probably like to be an only cat, but
recently that changed when we adopted two cats from shelters.

Bilbo is a male domestic long hair, age 3, neutered.  He came from a foster
home where he lived with 3 other foster cats in their own room (the owner
has her own cats too).  He is a very sweet, passive cat, or at least I
thought he was.  He seems afraid of Boo, who hissed and growled at him at
first but after almost a week seems to be getting used to him.  So that's
working out.  He was adopted last Sunday.  His only problem is one peeing
(not spraying) incident in a beanbag we had in the family room.  We surmised
that Boo scared him away from the catbox and he just had to go.  It hasn't
happened again.

Now, enter Sam.  He was brought home on Wednesday.  He's a 6 month old
domestic short hair kitten, neutered.  He's very cheerful and easygoing as
well, with a relatively mellow personality for a kitten.  He's playful, but
now overly so.  He seems to be adjusting much better than Bilbo and is not
afraid of Boo.  He grew up in a shelter of 500 cats (a no-kill with a huge
facility), so he's used to being hissed at, etc.  He takes it all in stride.

Today Bilbo and Sam were doing something odd that I've not seen before.
Bilbo was on top of Sam, holding him by the scruff of his neck with his
mouth, and pinning him to the floor.  He was not growling, hissing, or
otherwise acting angry.  Sam just laid down and took it.  He did this
several times, from the back and then from the side, holding him down with
his paw and the mouth thing.  Sam did not protest.  After this, Sam started
walking around "talking" and I thought he was hurt or upset, but no, he hung
around Bilbo and tried to play with him.  They engaged in a little batting
about of paws and then Sam lied down on his back and purred (loudly).  No
fighting.

Two questions:  What could this be?  Are they just playing?  Bilbo didn't
seem to be playing, but not fighting either, so I'm not sure.  He's kind of
a serious cat, so maybe this is his idea of playing?  Also, we put a topical
(Hartz) flea treatment on all three cats last night as we saw fleas on both
the new ones.  When Bilbo grabbed Sam by the scruff of the neck he had his
mouth on the area where the treatment went.  Will this make him sick?  I
assume it had soaked in by this a.m., but I'm a little concerned.

Thanks in advance for any help!  I'm sure I'll be a regular poster now with
such odd (to me, at least) goings on : ).

Dawn
Boo (F-10), Bilbo (M-3), and Sam (M-6 months)
kaeli - 16 Jan 2004 16:43 GMT
<snip>

Bilbo and Sam.
Very cute. hehe
LOTR fan, eh?

> Today Bilbo and Sam were doing something odd that I've not seen before.
> Bilbo was on top of Sam, holding him by the scruff of his neck with his
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Two questions:  What could this be?

Could be playing. If it were a female, I'd say discipline, but I've not
seen that from male cats.
Male cats will also mount this way, but I've not heard of mounting
behavior as a dominance display in cats. Dogs mount as a display of
dominance, so anything is possible.
I wouldn't worry overmuch, since there is no stress or blood.

> Are they just playing?  Bilbo didn't
> seem to be playing, but not fighting either, so I'm not sure.  He's kind of
> a serious cat, so maybe this is his idea of playing?  Also, we put a topical
> (Hartz) flea treatment on all three cats last night as we saw fleas on both
> the new ones.  

Hartz is poison.
http://www.geocities.com/boycotthartz/

Got pics of the kitties?  :)

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Stepdawn - 16 Jan 2004 18:33 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Got pics of the kitties?  :)

Thanks for your reply, Kaeli.  They seem to be playing in earnest now, so I
guess that's ok.  But now I am freaking out about the Hartz thing.  I had no
idea it was a different ingredient.  My husband, ever the cheapskate, picked
it over Advantage b/c of cost, I am sure.  I assumed it was the same
ingredient.  Well, we put it on last night so I'm sure the damage is done.
I washed their necks thoroughly but I guess I just have to hope that they
are ok.  They seem fine thus far, but I would die if one of my kitties got
sick because of our stupidity.

No pics developed yet, but I'll post a link when I get them done.

Thanks again!

Dawn
MGW - 16 Jan 2004 18:55 GMT
>Thanks for your reply, Kaeli.  They seem to be playing in earnest now, so I
>guess that's ok.  But now I am freaking out about the Hartz thing.  I had no
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>are ok.  They seem fine thus far, but I would die if one of my kitties got
>sick because of our stupidity.

Please don't confuse stupidity with ignorance.  You had no way of
knowing that Hartz was dangerous.  Now that you know, you obviously
don't plan to use it again. You aren't stupid (as far as I can tell);
please don't beat yourself up over this.
Christina - 16 Jan 2004 21:48 GMT
Stepdawn, if it makes you feel any better I had no idea about Hartz,
either.....I also learned from this newsgroup to not even consider
declawing.  I had no idea of the nightmare it causes to cats until I came in
here.  It's amazing what you learn just from talking with others!! I'm so
glad I joined this group.

Christina

--
> Please don't confuse stupidity with ignorance.  You had no way of
> knowing that Hartz was dangerous.  Now that you know, you obviously
> don't plan to use it again. You aren't stupid (as far as I can tell);
> please don't beat yourself up over this.
PawsForThought - 17 Jan 2004 18:34 GMT
>From: MGW mgw1979@hotmail.com

>Please don't confuse stupidity with ignorance.  You had no way of
>knowing that Hartz was dangerous.  Now that you know, you obviously
>don't plan to use it again. You aren't stupid (as far as I can tell);
>please don't beat yourself up over this.

I agree.  Hartz should have been pulled off the shelves years ago.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
kaeli - 16 Jan 2004 19:59 GMT
> Thanks for your reply, Kaeli.  They seem to be playing in earnest now, so I
> guess that's ok.

Okay? That's great!
It can take a long time for cats to decide to get along.

>  But now I am freaking out about the Hartz thing.  I had no
> idea it was a different ingredient.  My husband, ever the cheapskate, picked
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> are ok.  They seem fine thus far, but I would die if one of my kitties got
> sick because of our stupidity.

Ah, not stupid. It's not like the box says "buy this to kill your cat".
I used it, too, on my then-50-pound dog, who proceeded to vomit and get
diarrhea. Only later did I find out about the reputation of the product.
She is now on Advantix. The cats aren't on anything; there are few fleas
or ticks in the area and they (the cats, not the fleas) never leave the
yard. If my cats ever got fleas or ticks, I'd use Advantage.

> No pics developed yet, but I'll post a link when I get them done.

Cool!

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m. L. Briggs - 16 Jan 2004 18:48 GMT
><snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Got pics of the kitties?  :)

Suggestion:  do some research on the Hartz product.  There have been
quite a few recently saying cats have died after its use.  I have
never used their product, but I figure "where there is smoke, here is
fire" and would never try it.

The activity you mention sounds like cat play -- after all, their
"play" is pretend fighting.

Good luck with your kids.
Laura R. - 17 Jan 2004 02:13 GMT
circa Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:43:40 -0600, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
kaeli (tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net) said,
> Male cats will also mount this way, but I've not heard of mounting
> behavior as a dominance display in cats.

Wanna meet Jacob? ;-)

Seriously, this is very much a dominance thing.

Laura
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Brandy?Alexandre - 17 Jan 2004 06:08 GMT
Does anyone else have a cat that likes to have a pillow?  I mean, a
cat-sized pillow propped under her head for sleeping.  Kami has a low
donut bed and if she's not curled up with her head upside-down, she has
her head resting on the rim.  On the couch, she sleeps with her head on
her upturned paw, when she's snoozing under the directors chair, she
has her chin propped up on a low rail.  I just think it's odd.  Acid
Reflux Disease or something?  (I'm kidding)
Elizabeth Blake - 17 Jan 2004 19:44 GMT
> Does anyone else have a cat that likes to have a pillow?  I mean, a
> cat-sized pillow propped under her head for sleeping.  Kami has a low
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> has her chin propped up on a low rail.  I just think it's odd.  Acid
> Reflux Disease or something?  (I'm kidding)

I've always thought this was weird, too.  Tiger will prop her head on
anything, even hard uncomfortable (to me) objects.  They have one of those
Cosmic Catnip Alpine scratchers (basically a wedge of cardboard) and she'll
lay on the floor with her front paws & head propped up on the bottom.  It
looks painful to me!

Liz
Laura R. - 17 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT
circa Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:44:11 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Elizabeth Blake (poodlebone@NOSPAMearthlink.net) said,
> > Does anyone else have a cat that likes to have a pillow?  I mean, a
> > cat-sized pillow propped under her head for sleeping.  Kami has a low
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Liz

Jacob sleeps under the covers in my bed, with his paws either around
my neck or on my outstretched arm, *with his head on my pillow*. When
I get up in the morning, he stays in the bed for a while with his
head still on the pillow. I'm not sure he knows that he's a cat.

Laura
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Priscilla Ballou - 17 Jan 2004 20:35 GMT
> Jacob sleeps under the covers in my bed, with his paws either around
> my neck or on my outstretched arm, *with his head on my pillow*. When
> I get up in the morning, he stays in the bed for a while with his
> head still on the pillow. I'm not sure he knows that he's a cat.

For a few very sweet nights after he was first released from his
socialization stay in the guest room, my former feral Sebastian slept in
my bed with his head on my pillow.  I guess I socialized him too well!  
;-)  Then he remembered he was a cat, and he hasn't done it since.

Priscilla
Laura R. - 17 Jan 2004 20:55 GMT
circa Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:35:38 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Priscilla Ballou (vze23t8n@verizon.net) said,

> > Jacob sleeps under the covers in my bed, with his paws either around
> > my neck or on my outstretched arm, *with his head on my pillow*. When
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> my bed with his head on my pillow.  I guess I socialized him too well!  
> ;-)  Then he remembered he was a cat, and he hasn't done it since.

As adorable as it is that Jacob does this, sometimes I would just
like to sleep *without* him glued to my side and hogging the pillow.
;-)

Laura
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Brandy?Alexandre - 17 Jan 2004 20:54 GMT
Elizabeth Blake <poodlebone@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in
rec.pets.cats.health+behav:

> I've always thought this was weird, too.  Tiger will prop her head
> on anything, even hard uncomfortable (to me) objects.  They have
> one of those Cosmic Catnip Alpine scratchers (basically a wedge of
> cardboard) and she'll lay on the floor with her front paws & head
> propped up on the bottom.  It looks painful to me!

Exactly!  She also has to lay her head on my arm when I let her under
the covers (and she drools that way), and other stuff.  I just think
it's weird.
Priscilla H Ballou - 16 Jan 2004 19:14 GMT
Stepdawn <stepdawnkat@yahoo.com> quoth:

>Today Bilbo and Sam were doing something odd that I've not seen before.
>Bilbo was on top of Sam, holding him by the scruff of his neck with his
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>about of paws and then Sam lied down on his back and purred (loudly).  No
>fighting.

That's a dominance thing.  They're just working out the social hierarchy
in your household.  Bilbo was telling Sam that Bilbo was the boss of him,
was "on top" literally and figuratively.  Sam was saying, OK.

Priscilla
Stepdawn - 16 Jan 2004 21:42 GMT
Well, I checked out those websites, and after a bit of panic, I promptly
took all three cats (one at a time, of course) into the bathroom and gave
them a bath.  I washed them three times with Dawn dishwashing liquid (I saw
this recommended on Hartzvictims.org) and rinsed with tons of water.
Picture me in the tub, in my underwear, holding a cat between my legs and
washing their neck like there is no tomorrow : ).  I had so much adrenalin
pumping through me you wouldn't believe it.  I have scratches to show for
it, too.  But all in all, they handled it well and don't seem too mad at me
now.

Hopefully they won't get sick.  So far they are ok, and I got the stuff off
about 20 hours after application.  I pray they don't have any reactions.  I
think we'll live with the fleas for a bit, and then use Advantage or
Frontline if necessary.

Thanks for everyone who gave me the heads up on this--especially Kaeli who
was the one who spurred on the cat bathing marathon.

Also thanks for the advice on the cat behavior.  Bilbo and Sam seem to be
quite fine with each other now, so I've got two easy going boys and one
absolutely insane female : ).

Dawn
Karen Chuplis - 17 Jan 2004 05:29 GMT
> Well, I checked out those websites, and after a bit of panic, I promptly
> took all three cats (one at a time, of course) into the bathroom and gave
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Dawn

I think they will be fine. Most reactions seem to happen pretty quickly. And
now you have clean cats!
kaeli - 19 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
> I think they will be fine. Most reactions seem to happen pretty quickly. And
> now you have clean cats!

Yeah, when my dog got sick from it, it was quick, within a day.

Hope all goes well with the furkids.

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Christina - 19 Jan 2004 16:51 GMT
Kaeli.........love the website.....you made my day with all the laughs (the
funny pic page)!!!

Chris

> ~kaeli~
> Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses.
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
> http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
kaeli - 19 Jan 2004 21:14 GMT
> Kaeli.........love the website.....you made my day with all the laughs (the
> funny pic page)!!!

Thanks.  :)

I have more. I just have to find time to add them. heh

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Laura R. - 17 Jan 2004 02:13 GMT
circa Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:55:31 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Stepdawn (stepdawnkat@yahoo.com) said,
> Today Bilbo and Sam were doing something odd that I've not seen before.
> Bilbo was on top of Sam, holding him by the scruff of his neck with his
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> about of paws and then Sam lied down on his back and purred (loudly).  No
> fighting.

It's a dominance thing. See here:

http://www.dotphoto.com/go.asp?l=geekwench&AID=369785&Pres=Y

Jacob has been doing that to Oscar for Oscar's entire ten years. In
this picture, you don't see Jacob biting the back of Oscar's neck,
but that's usually what he's doing. He just noticed me getting ready
to take the picture. :-)

Don't worry; it's perfectly normal.

Laura
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Laura R. - 17 Jan 2004 02:16 GMT
circa Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:13:06 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
Laura R. (usefirstinitialandlastname@technologist.com) said,
> circa Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:55:31 -0700, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav,
> Stepdawn (stepdawnkat@yahoo.com) said,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Laura

Whoops, I forgot to mention- look at the last picture, entitled "Yes,
they're neutered. And both male."

Laura
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