Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / July 2003
another question-this time about getting a dog
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kate - 22 Jul 2003 20:33 GMT My husband and I are getting a little aby kitten, and then we are thinking we might want a puppy. The puppy would mostly be my husbands dog. We are looking for a dog that has a mellow disposition, medium sized to large, and won't bark too much when my husband is gone for the day. He works for 5 hours daily, and the dog would have to be with the cat during the day. I will be in my office all day, but the dog will not be allowed there. Any advice on which kind of dog might be best for us? We have a relatively big house with a yrd and we are going to crate train and do obediance school. We definitely want a dog who can get along with cats, too. Advice on breeds?
Kalyahna - 23 Jul 2003 02:04 GMT > My husband and I are getting a little aby kitten, and then we are > thinking we might want a puppy. The puppy would mostly be my husbands [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > going to crate train and do obediance school. We definitely want a dog > who can get along with cats, too. Advice on breeds? I'd suggest checking at your local humane society, or with local rescue organizations. Breed doesn't always matter; not ever border collie wants to herd, not every lab loves to play ball. At least at a shelter or in rescue, there should be people who can tell you what they know about a dog's personality. Chances are, if you're patient, you can find a dog that's already lived with cats, possibly one that's already crate-trained.
I do say "dog" instead of puppy intentionally. There are a lot of strays and even surrendered animals out there that need a good home. So please, don't simply deny the possibility of an adult. Besides. At least most adults are completely housebroken. ;P
Iain & Deb - 23 Jul 2003 12:43 GMT In article <de25454e.0307221133.467a92da@posting.google.com>, daykaty@hotmail.com says...
> My husband and I are getting a little aby kitten, and then we are > thinking we might want a puppy. The puppy would mostly be my husbands [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > going to crate train and do obediance school. We definitely want a dog > who can get along with cats, too. Advice on breeds? Your local humane society probably has lots of dogs that would suit you perfectly well. Personally, I like mixed breeds (fewer inbreeding health issues). You'll probably be able to find a dog that has lived with cats before, but in any case the introduction should be slow and careful; dogs sometimes kill kittens and cats.
We had a mutt (he was a terrier cross, we never knew his ancestry) who we took in because someone left him tied to my sister's porch. At about four months of age, he was easy to introduce to our cats, and they got along alright (some of the cats actually liked him!).
By the way "mellow disposition" and "won't bark too much" are crap-shoots no matter what kind of dog you get, from my experience. I also agree with Megan, that you'd be much better off taking one of the many kittens available at the humane society; if you can't get your deposit back, consider taking a second kitten from the H.S. anyway - I've always found that cats socialize better when there's more than one in the house.
Hope this helps, Deb
 Signature My basic principle is that you don't make decisions because they are easy; you don't make them because they are cheap; you don't make them because they're popular; you make them because they're right.
Theodore Hesburgh
Sherry - 23 Jul 2003 14:16 GMT >By the way "mellow disposition" and "won't bark too much" >are crap-shoots no matter what kind of dog you get, from my >experience. True, and even more true with cats.Just because a cat's breed standards dictate the cat will act a certain way doesn't mean it will. So what other reason does anyone buy a cat? Because they like a certain coat pattern/color. That sort of suggests you're buying a "designer cat". Even worse are people who buy the "trend cats" -- thanks to the movies, persians and siamese, or spynx, especially. Honestly, Megan's post, or Deb's, is not condemning. We just don't get it. Why, or how, anyone could actually pay money, even get on a waiting list, when so many, many healthy kittens die every day at shelters. There's no way a person can't find the perfect moggie at a shelter if they'll just look. I used to think I wanted a Balinese, and when we seized kittens from a kitten mill, I got my chance and nabbed one. When I'm feeling very pretentious, I call hiim a "Balinese." But we get masked cats at the shelter, even kittens, all the time, and you can't tell the difference!
Sherry
Orchid - 23 Jul 2003 22:20 GMT >>By the way "mellow disposition" and "won't bark too much" >>are crap-shoots no matter what kind of dog you get, from my >>experience. > >True, and even more true with cats.Just because a cat's breed standards dictate >the cat will act a certain way doesn't mean it will. Temperament is inherited, personality isn't. Breeds that have been bred for temperament will tend to be like that temperament. Bengals are a great example of this -- they have been bred for friendly temperaments from the beginning of the breed. Because of that, I have never encountered a well-bred Bengal that was 'mean' or scaredy. They tend to be outgoing, good-natured cats. As for other ways of acting, some of it is going to be related to body conformation. Siamese are going to be more active than Persians because Siamese aren't as heavily built and aren't brachycephalic. Maine Coons are going to be more active in cold weather than Abyssinians, and vice versa.
>So what other reason does >anyone buy a cat? Because they like a certain coat pattern/color. That sort of >suggests you're buying a "designer cat". What, like picking out a 'designer cat' at the shelter? I know someone who loves tuxedo cats, and so she has always had them. Other people prefer mackeral tabbies, still others like solid black cats. People will always, all other things being equal, choose a companion animal that they find aesthetically pleasing. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that.
>Even worse are people who buy the >"trend cats" -- thanks to the movies, persians and siamese, or spynx, >especially. Honestly, Megan's post, or Deb's, is not condemning. We just don't >get it. Why, or how, anyone could actually pay money, even get on a waiting >list, when so many, many healthy kittens die every day at shelters. How about "Well, I want a healthy, well-adjusted, properly socialised kitten that has been allowed to stay with its mom and littermates for the full 12-16 weeks they should." How about "I'd like to know the temperament of the father (whom temperament is inherited from)."
Rescue cats aren't right for everyone. Some people want predictable temperaments, activity levels, grooming requirements, etc. For those who want specific things out of their cats, purebred is the way to go. People who enjoy the challenge and surprise of discovering what a cat is going to be should absolutely rescue.
Orchid Orchid
Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Sherry - 23 Jul 2003 23:06 GMT >>So what other reason does >>anyone buy a cat? Because they like a certain coat pattern/color. That sort [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >companion animal that they find aesthetically pleasing. IMO, there's >nothing wrong with that. Good point. This is true. I stand corrected.
>>Even worse are people who buy the >>"trend cats" -- thanks to the movies, persians and siamese, or spynx, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >like to know the temperament of the father (whom temperament is >inherited from)." How about, "There are in excess of one million cats that will die, this year, simply because no one wants them. Healthy cats. There are also specific breed rescues full of cats relinquished by people who *thought* they wanted them . Waiting for homes. Just like the shelter cats.
>Rescue cats aren't right for everyone. Some people want predictable >temperaments, activity levels, grooming requirements, etc. For those >who want specific things out of their cats, purebred is the way to go. Purebred cats don't come with a guarantee--in fact, I'd be surprised if behavioral problems aren't more prevalent in purebreds than moggies, and congenital health problems too. There are no guarantees with *any* pet.
>People who enjoy the challenge and surprise of discovering what a cat >is going to be should absolutely rescue. I love my cats, but more importantlly, I love cats as a species. I could never, ever, with a good conscience, buy a cat from a breeder when I know how many cats die in this country alone. Maybe others can. But I couldn't.
Sherry
>Orchid
>Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage >Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid Cheryl - 23 Jul 2003 23:37 GMT > I love my cats, but more importantlly, I love cats as a species. I could never, > ever, with a good conscience, buy a cat from a breeder when I know how many > cats die in this country alone. Maybe others can. But I couldn't. Same here. Though sometimes I look at the most beautiful *looking* purebred cats and think I'd love to have one, like a Maine Coon. Then I look at my Shamrock who no one wanted and he's the most loving, the smartest, most intuitive, friendly, curious, excitable, playful cat and the best bug catcher in the world, and I remember what I really love about cats.
Gotta throw this in because it cracks me up about him. I don't leave dry food out at night anymore because of Shadow's problems and trying to convert them to all canned food. Shamrock now wakes me up in the morning -hungry- by plopping down on my face. How he does this is to stand on my pillow and just.. well, plop.. HARD on my face with his side and the look at me as if he's saying, "oh, you're awake? Well since you are, can you FEED ME now?" LOL
Karen Chuplis - 24 Jul 2003 00:36 GMT >> I love my cats, but more importantlly, I love cats as a species. I > could never, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > side and the look at me as if he's saying, "oh, you're awake? Well > since you are, can you FEED ME now?" LOL LOL!!!
Sherry - 24 Jul 2003 02:34 GMT >Gotta throw this in because it cracks me up about him. I don't leave >dry food out at night anymore because of Shadow's problems and trying [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >side and the look at me as if he's saying, "oh, you're awake? Well >since you are, can you FEED ME now?" LOL LOL! Frankie is a little more subtle. He gets his nose about 2 inches from my face. Then.. tap, tap taps his paw on my nose. If I don't respond, it's tap, tap with the claws out. If I still don't, he tries to stick his nose up my nostril. That usually gets me.
Sherry
Orchid - 24 Jul 2003 20:16 GMT *grin* Hi Sherry! I see that we are, once again, staring at each other from either sides of the purebred cat issue. It would seem to be our destiny to meet this way -- me defending purebred kitties and you reveiling them. ;) BTW -- Temujin and Kefka just recently got their first Championship! We're going for Double next. :D How's your grandcat doing in his show career?
>>>Even worse are people who buy the >>>"trend cats" -- thanks to the movies, persians and siamese, or spynx, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >rescues full of cats relinquished by people who *thought* they wanted them . >Waiting for homes. Just like the shelter cats. Cite please for the 1 million number, and the date of the study. Also, I'd like to see the breakdown of healthy, socialised, human-friendly cats vs. ferals vs. sick or injured, please. In my experience with the huge euthanisation numbers they tend to lump all cats into one, regardless of adopability. As for breed rescue, one needs to look at whether the rescue takes in mixes as well (as Siamese Rescue does) or if it truly it a breed-specific rescue. Breed Rescue is a wonderful thing. (I volunteer with the largest, best organised Lab Rescue in the nation and also with Bengal Rescue) However, true breed-specific rescues do not always have cats available or suitable. I looked into rescuing when I got my Bengal boys, and we had a total of 13 cats in rescue across the the US and Canada. Of those 13, 8 could not be shipped. Of the five left, 3 were females (I vastly prefer boys), and neither of the two available males could go into a multicat home (I very much wanted two cats). So that put the kibosh on rescue for my cats. Approximately 3.6% of the entire cat population is purebred (http://www.fanciers.com/npa/sdanalysis.html). Purebred cats are much more likely to be indoor-only cats, and less likely to be randomly bred. Roaming, free breeding cats, on the other hand, make up well over a third of the known cat population. It is clear where the problem lies. Cities are not being overrun by herds of wandering Himalayan and Devon Rex cats.
>>Rescue cats aren't right for everyone. Some people want predictable >>temperaments, activity levels, grooming requirements, etc. For those [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >behavioral problems aren't more prevalent in purebreds than moggies, and >congenital health problems too. There are no guarantees with *any* pet. Well, that depends on the guarantee. For example, any cat that comes from a responsible breeder (like mine), not only comes with a congenital health guarantee (generally five years or so on paper), but it also comes with the guarantee that should you have to give up your cat for *any reason* it MUST go back to the breeder and not into a shelter. Responsible breeders take care of the animals they have brought into the world. As for behavioural problems, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Of the cats I have known, owned, and fostered, the moggies have had much more extreme emotional and behavioural problems.
>>People who enjoy the challenge and surprise of discovering what a cat >>is going to be should absolutely rescue. > >I love my cats, but more importantlly, I love cats as a species. I could never, >ever, with a good conscience, buy a cat from a breeder when I know how many >cats die in this country alone. Maybe others can. But I couldn't. I also love my cats and cats as a species. I have fostered for rescue groups before, and pouring love, attention, training, and time into cats who most certainly did *not* love me back took its toll on me. I still volunteer with rescues and the local Humane Society, but when I come home I have my lovely, happy, purring lovekitties to heal my soul.
And that's what it's all about.
Orchid
Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid
Yngver - 24 Jul 2003 21:16 GMT >As for behavioural problems, I am going to have to >respectfully disagree with you. Of the cats I have known, owned, and >fostered, the moggies have had much more extreme emotional and >behavioural problems. I agree with you here. A responsible breeder has already made sure a kitten is properly litterbox trained, is accustomed to grooming and having its claws clipped, and is properly socialized. Unfortunately random bred kittens are too often taken from their mothers at far too young an age, leaving the new owner to try to train the kitten. And quite often the new owner has no idea how to do so.
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 24 Jul 2003 21:39 GMT > I agree with you here. A responsible breeder has already made sure a kitten is > properly litterbox trained, is accustomed to grooming and having its claws > clipped, and is properly socialized. Unfortunately random bred kittens are too Heh, well I'm not sure I got mine from a good breeder (hindsight I should have gone with the one that was cautioning me to wait when I contaccted her still in college), but my cat was most definitely litter box trained and scratching post trained when I got her (she's very good about the scratching post and if she ever goes outside the box I know something's wrong).
On the other hand, on the new owner thing, I kinda wish people would do some research before getting an animal, enough to at least have an idea on how to start the cat on the litterbox and stuff.
Alice
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
*~*SooZy*~* - 25 Jul 2003 10:16 GMT > >As for behavioural problems, I am going to have to > >respectfully disagree with you. Of the cats I have known, owned, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to try to train the kitten. And quite often the new owner has no idea how to do > so. I have a pure bred Ragdoll, that comes from a very well know breeder, he was litter trained from the word go, used to his nails being clipped, being groomed, from the moment he walked in here, he acted like he had known the place.. never shown any sign of nervousness.... but then again my moggie Kitten was exactly the same. I really think it comes down to the what's happened to them from birth....
I have had rescue cats before too, and always found them very nervous, not litter trained etc I suppose that's why the owners gave up on them in the first place :-( I have only had one kitten from a rescue, most people will take a kitten but not so many take on an older cat from rescue.
 Signature Luv'n'Stuff *~*SooZy*~* http://community.webshots.com/user/ragdollcatsuk
Yngver - 25 Jul 2003 23:10 GMT *SooZy*~*" soozy@pantstotalise.co.uk wrote:
>I have a pure bred Ragdoll, that comes from a very well know breeder, he was >litter trained from the word go, used to his nails being clipped, being >groomed, from the moment he walked in here, he acted like he had known the >place.. never shown any sign of nervousness.... but then again my moggie >Kitten was exactly the same. I really think it comes down to the what's >happened to them from birth.... Yes, I think that's true. But I think, as mentioned, part of the problem is that breeders generally won't let a kitten go until it's plenty old enough to be well socialized and trained, but you see people giving away mixed breed kittens as young as 6 weeks (maybe even younger). Of course, sometimes it's not feasible to keep the kittens until they are 12-16 weeks and many people don't know how to properly train them anyway, but kittens that young do miss out on some important lessons their littermates and mothers would have taught them.
Sherry - 24 Jul 2003 23:11 GMT >*grin* Hi Sherry! I see that we are, once again, staring at >each other from either sides of the purebred cat issue. It would seem >to be our destiny to meet this way -- me defending purebred kitties >and you reveiling them. ;) <grin back> Hi Orchid! The grandcat didn't fare so well in his show career. He started out fabulously, raking in best of breed even. The day he got his premiere, he decided he didn't like shows, sat with his back to the crowd in every ring, and hissed at the judges. So he was promptly retired. Daughter said she wasn't going to show him if he didn't like it. See, I'm not *all* bad. I even went to the cat shows. I even kept my mouth shut. The things we do for our grand-cats. Sigh. :)
Sherry
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 23 Jul 2003 17:25 GMT > Your local humane society probably has lots of dogs that > would suit you perfectly well. Personally, I like mixed > breeds (fewer inbreeding health issues). You'll probably be Depends on what breeder you get them from and if they are actually trying to get healthy, well balanced dogs along with the standard or just trying to breed the dog and not caring about what they breed in.
That being said, there are a lot of rescues for purebreds so one can go there and rescue a dog and still get a breed (here in Seattle we have Seattle Purebreed Dog rescue that covers a lot of breeds).
I'd get a dog that was fostered somewhere as they'll know the personality of the dog best vs one that is jsut stuck in a shelter (the best they can do there is bring it into the cat area and see if he pays any attention to the cats, I don't really think that would make me feel comfortable enough that the dog would be ok with cats, but then I have a case where I have to get a dog excellent with cats as I've got a cat taht is going to be hard enough to get to be at best ok with the dog).
> By the way "mellow disposition" and "won't bark too much" > are crap-shoots no matter what kind of dog you get, from my > experience. I also agree with Megan, that you'd be much Not really. Don't get Beagles, don't get hounds, don't get dogs with those types of breeds in them, don't get dauschounds (sp?), and already you have at least gotten away from the dgos that will bark and bark and bark inherantly (it bugs me people who are getting barking collars that shock their dogs cause tehy have a beagle in their apartment... did they do any research before getting that dog?! Or they'd know a beagle is not a good apartment dog, they bark for the fun of it and they have very loud barks).
There's even a barkless dog, the Basenji, but I woudln't recomend that dog to just anyone. Cna be a true troublemaker.
But yes, when talking any breeds, there are exceptions cause in the end they are all individuals. But yes, breeds do tend to have certain types of personalities (Pitbulls are highly energetic people dogs, Pugs love attention, Huskies tend to like to run and dig, Labs *love* treats...I swear of any dog that's almost taken my hand with them getting treats, almost all have been labs).
Alice
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
kaeli - 23 Jul 2003 14:33 GMT > My husband and I are getting a little aby kitten, and then we are > thinking we might want a puppy. The puppy would mostly be my husbands [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > going to crate train and do obediance school. We definitely want a dog > who can get along with cats, too. Advice on breeds? Adopt an adult. Puppies can turn into anything. Adopting from the local rescue, especially if the animals are fostered in homes, gives you a very good idea of what the personality is like. You can get some great dogs, already house trained and already used to cats.
http://www.petfinder.com
 Signature ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Black holes were created when God divided by 0. Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace -------------------------------------------------
kate - 23 Jul 2003 23:46 GMT I really appreciate the replies! We actually do check petfinder quite often, and are interested in getting a mixed breed, but I just wondered if there is any breed I should search for as part of the mix. I also check the shelters and petfinder quite often for cats. I have tried to adopt one from a shelter but the woman told me that she wasnted to put the cat in a household with another cat. I thought this was stupid since she had already adopted its siblings out and she said that the cat missed its siblings-duh. I also work at home all day so my cats dont ever get lonely. Both of my previous cats (one from a shelter , the other a siamese) died last year at age 13 and 14. They never got along. The shelter kitty picked on the Siamese his whole life although she was super sweet to us humans (I dont think this has anything to do with breeds, just the way things came to be). When she died of heart problems my Siamese was so much more relaxed and happy. Unfortunately later we found out that he also had heart disease and he died 9 months later. I must actually disagree respectfully with a couple of statements from all of the replies, though. First, I think breed does matter. I grew up with siamese and mut cats, and I have always found that siamese had very distinct personality traits that I liked. I always found them to be very deep and intelligent. All of my american short hairs were smart, too, but there was just a difference I cant explain. I have been looking for cats at the shelters and havent found one I quite connect with. I do think dogs retain their breed characteristics for the most part as well. I think a herding dog will always be restless if not given tasks and a lot of excercise. Its in their blood. I am not at all interested in appearance, I am looking for personality and that's it. I also find that sometimes kittens do not socialize well with their owners of another kitten is adopted with it. When I was growing up, my family adopted two brothers. They only played among themselves and didnt have much interest in bonding with humans. When one of the brothers was killed by a neighbors dog, the remaining brother became completely wild. He hunted for all of his food, never wanted to come inside, and never socialized with humans until he was much older (he then became a lap cat). These are just my experiences, but I am still really interested in hearing all of your opinions, so this is by no means intended to be antagonistic, just my 2 cents...
Karen Chuplis - 24 Jul 2003 00:43 GMT > I really appreciate the replies! We actually do check petfinder quite > often, and are interested in getting a mixed breed, but I just [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > hearing all of your opinions, so this is by no means intended to be > antagonistic, just my 2 cents... Well, I have a black cat my brother found as a stray at around 6 months. He had to move so I took her in. Completely Siamese in behaviour. She has the elegant ears and face and certainly the voice of a Siamese. She snorts through her nose in disgust if I chatise her. If she were colored correctly, you'd think she was a purebred. She's just a moggie with Siamese in her blood and one like her can be found at a shelter. Or there are also Siamese rescues. I guess there wouldn't be purebred rescues if people really got what they thought they were getting. One other point, I can guarantee that whatever cat you get will not match the cat you remember. They all have too distinct a personality for that and wanting too much of a duplicate can be very disappointing. That's just a caution, not to say that is what you are after but sometimes we do that in our hearts. As for your two brothers, I can guarantee too, that that is pretty unusual behaviour. You've only to read all the anecdotes over the newsgroups to see that. Check out the 3 year update posted the other day. Or look at MaryL's Holly and Duffy. Or my Sugar and Grant that I got off a farm that are siblings. They are fantastic cats and complete love bugs dependent on me for loving. They are all different.
karen
Cheryl - 24 Jul 2003 01:12 GMT You've only to
> read all the anecdotes over the newsgroups to see that. Check out the 3 year > update posted the other day. Or look at MaryL's Holly and Duffy. Or my Sugar > and Grant that I got off a farm that are siblings. They are fantastic cats > and complete love bugs dependent on me for loving. They are all different. And Bonnie the feral lil won who only 2 months ago hated my guts and went ballistic if you touch her or even tried to touch her to now where she lets me pet her and only paws my hand as if trying to be threatening but doesn't have the heart for it anymore. :)
wombn - 24 Jul 2003 13:29 GMT >You've only to >> read all the anecdotes over the newsgroups to see that. Check out [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > :-D
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If laughter is the best medicine, then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
wombn - 24 Jul 2003 13:29 GMT > One other point, I can guarantee that >whatever cat you get will not match the cat you remember. They all have too >distinct a personality for that and wanting too much of a duplicate can be >very disappointing. That's just a caution, not to say that is what you are >after but sometimes we do that in our hearts. This is exactly why it took me 3.5 yrs to get another cat after Wally died.
I knew finding another one like him would be nearly impossible.
When I heard about people cloning their pets, my first reaction was, oh how silly...... then I thought of Wally.
Well, my head still says, "how silly", and my heart refuses to agree. *sniffle*
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If laughter is the best medicine, then kittens should be covered by our health insurance. :-)
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